Response to Raid Economy Update

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@CG_Tusken_Meathead While it's good to see CG isn't completely blind to the issues and concerns, other than the Kyrat rewards, nothing else was addressed in your post considering the other raids and their reward structure.

The loss of Get 1 Get 2 tokens weren't addressed
The loss of credits weren't addressed.
The loss of shards weren't addressed
The loss of overall gear income between the 4 raids wasn't addressed.
The loss of Mod slicing mats weren't addressed.
You did mention the Guild tokens but no real details on that either.

Our progress has been significantly impacted in a negative way.

Raising the rewards for the Kyrat dragon raid does not address any of those issues with the other raids. We are still getting a lot less than we did before the update rolled out.

Hopefully all those will be addressed sooner than later, as resources come in very slow and go very fast!

Replies

  • Aiin
    11 posts Member
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    I want some credits
  • Jed_Eye
    176 posts Member
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    100% this
  • Options
    The problem is wording. If you read their post, we aren’t getting additional rewards. They are just moving the rewards to earlier in the track. I’m not sure that there is actually any increase in rewards.

    But the positive note is that guilds getting less than 130 million box should be getting some better rewards. And that is a win.

    I will be anxiously awaiting the new structure to redo the math.
  • ragnoris
    70 posts Member
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    Could someone please take the rewards from simmed pit and calculate how many raid tokens it would cost to purchase all of them.

    Then could someone please do the same for simmed tank.

    Then could someone please do the same for hstr.

    And please show your work so we can see what assumptions are used. This would quantify how much we actually lost. I would do the math myself but I can only find one screenshot for each raid which is obviously not a sufficient sample size for solid calculations.

    Based on what I had in those screenshots the new hstr gives more than enough tokens to purchase everything from those three combined, but I keep reading that hstr is causing a reduction in rewards and am trying to figure out what I’m missing in my math.

    For reference I picked a random piece of gear that was available for both guild tokens and raid 1/2 tokens and used that as a basis for converting guild tokens to raid tokens.
  • Ultra
    11551 posts Moderator
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    one thing at a time, padawan
  • Robre
    41 posts Member
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    Ultra wrote: »
    one thing at a time, padawan

    If we remain silent, nothing will get done. We need to be more vocal than before because we are still at a huge loss.
  • R3D0
    8 posts Member
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    Ultra wrote: »
    one thing at a time, padawan

    That's not a practical piece of advice when they flipped the game economy upside down in a single day.
  • Ultra
    11551 posts Moderator
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    R3D0 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    one thing at a time, padawan

    That's not a practical piece of advice when they flipped the game economy upside down in a single day.

    they announced they’ll be making it upright in a single day too (today)

    and once it goes live on wednesday it’ll be a single day change too
  • Options
    ragnoris wrote: »
    Could someone please take the rewards from simmed pit and calculate how many raid tokens it would cost to purchase all of them.

    Then could someone please do the same for simmed tank.

    Then could someone please do the same for hstr.

    And please show your work so we can see what assumptions are used. This would quantify how much we actually lost. I would do the math myself but I can only find one screenshot for each raid which is obviously not a sufficient sample size for solid calculations.

    Based on what I had in those screenshots the new hstr gives more than enough tokens to purchase everything from those three combined, but I keep reading that hstr is causing a reduction in rewards and am trying to figure out what I’m missing in my math.

    For reference I picked a random piece of gear that was available for both guild tokens and raid 1/2 tokens and used that as a basis for converting guild tokens to raid tokens.

    Before you were passively getting 2M credits between francot, att, sith. Now you have to choose between buying credits or gear. Very often you got fully crafted pieces which now you don't. Also your excess gear you didn't need was feeding the scavenger, which you'll notice very very soon once it starts drying up. You lost 4200 Guild tokens between the two raids that bought you further gear/shards. You lost Get 1 and if you were clearing CPit Get 2 which is completely removed. You were getting mod slicing mods from Sith, you were getting 182k ship credits from ATT

    While the idea is nice that you can buy what you need, you're still at a noticeable net loss. Because now you don't get anything passively as before, now you have to spend your tokens on them. And on top of that you lost two different currencies, and materials above mentioned. A person doesn't have to be a mathematician to realize it's a set back. And your overall net loss comes down to how often was your guild running raids. We weren't even clearing CPit, and even we feel ripped off, I can only imagine how 250M+ Guilds feel who actually cleared CPit as well.

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I see this as an attempt to try forcing people to put a ton of resources into teams that nobody actually wants.

    I don't think nerfing our rewards was the way to get people interested in those factions. Maybe overhaul them?

    In any case they could of easily left alone the 3 old raids, and introduced their new mk1-2-3 stuff for Kyrat only. And then people could decide whether they want to work on those factions or stick with the other raids.

  • R3D0
    8 posts Member
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    Ultra wrote: »
    R3D0 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    one thing at a time, padawan

    That's not a practical piece of advice when they flipped the game economy upside down in a single day.

    they announced they’ll be making it upright in a single day too (today)

    and once it goes live on wednesday it’ll be a single day change too

    Right. Just like they previously announced that the new rewards would replace the old rewards.

    They've earned a healthy bit of skepticism.
  • LordDirt
    5085 posts Member
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    Yep, no way they actually come through with their promises now.
    Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
  • beli631
    31 posts Member
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    What about silly pricing? Kyos, zetas, relic mats like circuit boards and bronzium wiring.
  • crzydroid
    7364 posts Moderator
    edited May 2023
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    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I don't mean to seem like I'm ignoring everything else, because I think the gear will always be the elephant in the room, but this is not necessarily historically different from other new raids. Pao wasn't useful for anything when we were using him for his offense up in phase 3 of Sith raid. And then that team was replaced quickly enough by Nightsisters+Anakin and when MM made me feel like my g12 Pao was no longer a waste, that was welcome. Even Machine Gun Leia in p2 had the issue of Leia having mostly outlived her usefulness in PvP. G11 Tusken Shaman and zSidious to run with Vader in p2 tank also send their regards. Aayla wasn't good outside of using her tenacity lead for your phase 1 AAT Jedi teams either.

    Here, main teams are going to be HC, Maul Mandos, and OR, which are all very useful in other modes. Jawas are putting up decent numbers for a low investment, and already one is required at relics for a GL. Two Tuskens are needed at relics for GLs as well. No, not everyone is going to max out these teams. But it's not like everyone was investing in raid teams before either, especially once the leaders got it on farm. But there were people who did, and there still probably will be some (outside of those who already have Tuskens maxed out to keep up with the TB). For everyone else, hopefully the promised raids rotations don't take unreasonably long and maybe sometimes some people will get lucky with the factions chosen. But my guess would be that outside of the main factions, there will always be some of these teams that people don't want to farm, and yes, some people will farm them for the raid.
  • ragnoris
    70 posts Member
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    ragnoris wrote: »
    Could someone please take the rewards from simmed pit and calculate how many raid tokens it would cost to purchase all of them.

    Then could someone please do the same for simmed tank.

    Then could someone please do the same for hstr.

    And please show your work so we can see what assumptions are used. This would quantify how much we actually lost. I would do the math myself but I can only find one screenshot for each raid which is obviously not a sufficient sample size for solid calculations.

    Based on what I had in those screenshots the new hstr gives more than enough tokens to purchase everything from those three combined, but I keep reading that hstr is causing a reduction in rewards and am trying to figure out what I’m missing in my math.

    For reference I picked a random piece of gear that was available for both guild tokens and raid 1/2 tokens and used that as a basis for converting guild tokens to raid tokens.

    Before you were passively getting 2M credits between francot, att, sith. Now you have to choose between buying credits or gear. Very often you got fully crafted pieces which now you don't. Also your excess gear you didn't need was feeding the scavenger, which you'll notice very very soon once it starts drying up. You lost 4200 Guild tokens between the two raids that bought you further gear/shards. You lost Get 1 and if you were clearing CPit Get 2 which is completely removed. You were getting mod slicing mods from Sith, you were getting 182k ship credits from ATT

    While the idea is nice that you can buy what you need, you're still at a noticeable net loss. Because now you don't get anything passively as before, now you have to spend your tokens on them. And on top of that you lost two different currencies, and materials above mentioned. A person doesn't have to be a mathematician to realize it's a set back. And your overall net loss comes down to how often was your guild running raids. We weren't even clearing CPit, and even we feel ripped off, I can only imagine how 250M+ Guilds feel who actually cleared CPit as well.

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I see this as an attempt to try forcing people to put a ton of resources into teams that nobody actually wants.

    I don't think nerfing our rewards was the way to get people interested in those factions. Maybe overhaul them?

    In any case they could of easily left alone the 3 old raids, and introduced their new mk1-2-3 stuff for Kyrat only. And then people could decide whether they want to work on those factions or stick with the other raids.

    Everything you mentioned can be purchased for tokens/assigned a token value. If the sum of the token value of a typical result of the previous raids is less than the current tokens being given out for maxing hstr then rewards were not lost. If the sum of previous rewards converted to tokens is greater than current hstr rewards than rewards were lost. Without the math you cannot know whether you are at a net loss or not. You may feel it emotionally but that does not make it true. To use an economic analogy, you are carrying around a bag that has 40 euros, 750 yen, and 3000 rubles. Someone offers to replace that with 500 usd. You had a bunch of different items with different comparative value, now you are going to a new type currency. Emotionally having lots of different types of currency in varying amounts may feel like you must clearly have greater value, but until you do that conversion you really don’t know which is better.

    Please note I’m not saying it’s better or worse now, quite frankly I don’t know because I haven’t seen the math. Everything I’ve seen includes cpit which I very specifically did not include in my question as I am not concerned with how cpit rewards tip the balance. My question is about hstr rewards, and cpit is progression beyond hstr. Cpit rewards should be accounted for in krayt rewards as that should be progression beyond cpit, but it would not be reasonable to expect hstr to include rewards for something beyond itself.

    Also Jabba, maul/mandos, and jkr aren’t exactly teams no one uses. Tuskens also have use outside of the raid and are fun to play. The only faction I see as limited use for outside the raid are jawas. And they could be replaced with a second hutt cartel team or second old republic squad.
  • Zakracoon
    32 posts Member
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    What about the plain guild tokens that were awarded! Everything from node 4 onwards in guild activity tab is now next to useless, ive not geared up 1 toon since this change. Only allowing 1 raid at a time is a joke and an intentional slowing down of the game, its become stale an boring in one fell swoop
  • KDC99X
    756 posts Member
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    Good points raised, one thing that I think CG has done a really great job of, is continually rebalancing and trying to keep older units relevant as the game evolves. And you're right that many of the teams and toons for the raid are very good across the game. I always thought the faction selection for the raid is very player-friendly, in that there are a lot of characters we can work on, that align with other important farms or teams.

    That being said, the fly in the ointment with your second paragraph, is that under the current raid structure it still requires everyone (or close it) in a guild to be working on specifically those same teams, in order to reach the higher - and actually worthwhile for the investment - reward tiers. So when the featured raid changes, it's probably not the scenario of some players will get lucky, because it may not be even worth doing the raid at all, unless most of a guild has those teams developed.

    This may be all fine and dandy for larger, end game guilds with thoroughly developed rosters, but for smaller or more casual guilds just a little further down the food chain, there can be players working through all sorts of different paths in the game, who haven't reached the end game yet. Players working on their first or second or third GL, or finishing up important Journey Guide unlocks. Forcing everyone to have to abandon their farming plans and chase teams for the featured raid could really throw roster development out of whack as people are leaving projects half-finished, and could also cause more homogeneity of rosters in PvP modes below the very top where everyone has almost all the characters anyway. Which is by far most of the people who play this game.

    Of course, this also depends on what changes to the reward structure are forthcoming, and what the timeline looks like for new raids.
    crzydroid wrote: »

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I don't mean to seem like I'm ignoring everything else, because I think the gear will always be the elephant in the room, but this is not necessarily historically different from other new raids. Pao wasn't useful for anything when we were using him for his offense up in phase 3 of Sith raid. And then that team was replaced quickly enough by Nightsisters+Anakin and when MM made me feel like my g12 Pao was no longer a waste, that was welcome. Even Machine Gun Leia in p2 had the issue of Leia having mostly outlived her usefulness in PvP. G11 Tusken Shaman and zSidious to run with Vader in p2 tank also send their regards. Aayla wasn't good outside of using her tenacity lead for your phase 1 AAT Jedi teams either.

    Here, main teams are going to be HC, Maul Mandos, and OR, which are all very useful in other modes. Jawas are putting up decent numbers for a low investment, and already one is required at relics for a GL. Two Tuskens are needed at relics for GLs as well. No, not everyone is going to max out these teams. But it's not like everyone was investing in raid teams before either, especially once the leaders got it on farm. But there were people who did, and there still probably will be some (outside of those who already have Tuskens maxed out to keep up with the TB). For everyone else, hopefully the promised raids rotations don't take unreasonably long and maybe sometimes some people will get lucky with the factions chosen. But my guess would be that outside of the main factions, there will always be some of these teams that people don't want to farm, and yes, some people will farm them for the raid.

  • Morgoth01
    509 posts Member
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    I highly suspect we will still be massively shafted when it comes to aeros.
    We were getting 7 pr cPit previously,,that’s equivalent of 1400 MK3 of the new currency.

    Can’t see them dealing out enough MK3 to compensate for that + the other things you need to buy with MK3 to be at par with previous raid rewards. Especially not for guilds who just had cpit on farm.

    Also still very sceptical on the massive loss of the original guild token as well as the rest pointed out by OP.
    It’s great they are decreasing the nerf, but unless they move almost all rewards to the first few boxes, they are still massively nerfing the economy for most guilds.
  • nottenst
    709 posts Member
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    Here is one set of screenshots from the Sith Raid. If someone wants to do the calculation here you go.5waxqfb016ee.jpg
    xtcbw8mr9ryr.jpg
    obhhdch1gp08.jpg
  • Options
    Morgoth01 wrote: »
    It’s great they are decreasing the nerf, but unless they move almost all rewards to the first few boxes, they are still massively nerfing the economy for most guilds.

    Yeah it sounds like they aren't touching the Sith raid at all and just buffing Kryat. So they are just looking to fix the fact that everyone went back to the Sith raid rather than fix the nerf.
  • nottenst
    709 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    And here is a simmed Pit. I don't think I have a simmed HAAT available. One thing easily seen is the 10 shards are 700 Mk 1 Raid currency. 20 Mk 5 CEC Fusion Furnace Salvage are 840 Guild tokens. 70 are 1120 Mk 1 Raid Tokens. 35 Mk 4 Carbanti Salvage are 1190 Mk1 Raid Tokens. So the two pieces of gear in this case can be bought with 952 + 800 = 1752 MK 1 Raid Tokens. db171xjc5zhp.jpg
  • Options
    ragnoris wrote: »
    ragnoris wrote: »
    Could someone please take the rewards from simmed pit and calculate how many raid tokens it would cost to purchase all of them.

    Then could someone please do the same for simmed tank.

    Then could someone please do the same for hstr.

    And please show your work so we can see what assumptions are used. This would quantify how much we actually lost. I would do the math myself but I can only find one screenshot for each raid which is obviously not a sufficient sample size for solid calculations.

    Based on what I had in those screenshots the new hstr gives more than enough tokens to purchase everything from those three combined, but I keep reading that hstr is causing a reduction in rewards and am trying to figure out what I’m missing in my math.

    For reference I picked a random piece of gear that was available for both guild tokens and raid 1/2 tokens and used that as a basis for converting guild tokens to raid tokens.

    Before you were passively getting 2M credits between francot, att, sith. Now you have to choose between buying credits or gear. Very often you got fully crafted pieces which now you don't. Also your excess gear you didn't need was feeding the scavenger, which you'll notice very very soon once it starts drying up. You lost 4200 Guild tokens between the two raids that bought you further gear/shards. You lost Get 1 and if you were clearing CPit Get 2 which is completely removed. You were getting mod slicing mods from Sith, you were getting 182k ship credits from ATT

    While the idea is nice that you can buy what you need, you're still at a noticeable net loss. Because now you don't get anything passively as before, now you have to spend your tokens on them. And on top of that you lost two different currencies, and materials above mentioned. A person doesn't have to be a mathematician to realize it's a set back. And your overall net loss comes down to how often was your guild running raids. We weren't even clearing CPit, and even we feel ripped off, I can only imagine how 250M+ Guilds feel who actually cleared CPit as well.

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I see this as an attempt to try forcing people to put a ton of resources into teams that nobody actually wants.

    I don't think nerfing our rewards was the way to get people interested in those factions. Maybe overhaul them?

    In any case they could of easily left alone the 3 old raids, and introduced their new mk1-2-3 stuff for Kyrat only. And then people could decide whether they want to work on those factions or stick with the other raids.

    Everything you mentioned can be purchased for tokens/assigned a token value.

    Please show me where you Get Get 1 and Get 2 for MK1-MK2-MK3
    Plase show me where you get Guild tokens for MK1-MK2-MK3
    Please show me where you get Mod slicing mats for MK1-MK2-MK3 (There is ONE single slot in the store)
    Pease show me where you get Ship currency for MK1-MK2-MK3.

  • Winterwolves
    1754 posts Member
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    Please, as part of the guild shop changes make credits and ship credits always available on their own spot, near the top. That's one spot each, not a shared spot like they have now, shared with training droids of all things. There is about a 2 week span of every swgoh players life where training droids may possibly ever be an issue. Now they are an issue again, of a different kind, blocking players from buying credits and ship materials.
  • Nauros
    5429 posts Member
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    The point of this change seems to be making Krayt actually worth playing for mid-tier guilds, which is a step in right direction. Actually buffing the rewards will probably take more time (if it happens at all), but I'm sure that the community won’t let them forget about that part.
  • Notworking
    174 posts Member
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    Both simmed raids and Sith raid rewards screenshot. lwn6oej68v57.jpg
  • MasterSeedy
    5126 posts Member
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    First let me address this:
    Mk 4 Zaltin Bacta Gel Salvage and Mk 8 BioTech Implant Salvage have been added to the Guild Store for Mk 1 Raid Tokens.

    The Guild Store will been reorganized to make it easier for players to find what they're looking for.

    I was loud and I was clear that the store UI was bad and it should feel bad. I wasn't the only one, but I was one of (if not the) earliest voice expressing this. The community as a whole is focussed on the amount of rewards, and it should be, but let's not miss just how bad it was trying to find what you're looking for. This is not a **sufficient** win, but this is a major win. I want to have fun playing the game, and the death scroll through mixed up purchase lots was a total PITA and killed fun.

    I always advocate for fun. They can't make scrolling through gear choices fun, but they can make it so much better than it was. I'm glad that they announced this right away. Thank you, CG.

    Secondly, I think I was the only person who noticed that by removing Guild Tokens CG removed the only reliable source of g11 finishers. The addition of Mk4 Bacta Gel for Mk1 Raid Tokens is also a major win. Even though I was the only one complaining about it over the last couple days, we would ALL have felt that before too long.

    I am still concerned about the lack of Mk6 Droid Callers. I can, of course, choose to ONLY ever buy Mk6 Droid Callers with my few remaining Guild Tokens, and maybe over time that will be a successful strategy for keeping up, but there's still no way to collect them quickly (in, say, a week) without purchasing them for crystals ... unless you happen to get very lucky with how often they pop up in the Shard Shop.

    I'll be monitoring this. The Bacta Gel addition is clearly a win, but Mk6 Droid Callers might no longer be reliably available for most players, and if true that would be a real problem.

    Much more to discuss about the updates, but of course some details are lacking and I'll need to think more about what else has been said. But in the meantime, one major win and one partial win. I appreciate Tusken Meathead for taking serious commentary seriously. I do criticize this game, but not to be a troll: rather I believe that our comments can make this game batter. in these two instances they have. Thanks for the progress so far, CG.

  • Starslayer
    2421 posts Member
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    The loss of Get 1 Get 2 tokens weren't addressed
    One of the problem with the loss of get1/2 was the potential loss of tb characters shards; those will be purchasable via raid shop (not sure if nego/male will be part of the deal though).
  • Gawejn
    1126 posts Member
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    Lets see what will be changed. If there will be like 12k mk1, 8k mk2 and 1k mk3 i can accept it. From making 1mil dmg personal and guild around 40mil dmg.
  • MasterSeedy
    5126 posts Member
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    From @Alex84swgoh 's OP:
    The loss of Get 1 Get 2 tokens weren't addressed
    The loss of credits weren't addressed.
    The loss of shards weren't addressed
    The loss of overall gear income between the 4 raids wasn't addressed.


    I disagree that Get1 and Get2 need to be addressed so long as everything other than toons available for Get1 and Get2 are available for purchase using Raid tokens. Yes, your GET income will decline, but now you don't have to buy anything other than the toons/ships there, since you can get the same gear with raid tokens.

    Credits are still a real problem. I don't worry about credits these days, but I do buy mods and I stop buying mods if I fall below 20M credits. That's going to happen much more often if my income gets cut by several million credits per week.

    Shards are supposed to be purchasable in a future update, so I think they've said they're addressing that even if the fix isn't here yet.

    Loss of overall gear income is really a problem to the extent that it affects Relic Mats. I think CG thought that we would love it if instead of getting a bunch of junk we don't need, we were able to buy things we do need. And, sure, that has its appeal. But we were using the "junk" for relic mats. So to the extent that they think it's okay to cut income in half so long as they give us enough tokens to buy the half we need, they're wrong. We need all of it, it's just the things people label "junk" are converted to something useful. But if we don't have junk to convert, then we have to use the things we would prefer not to convert.

    The Scavenger had balanced things well so that almost all of the raid gear was desirable, either for itself or for its conversion potential. By thinking of half of gear as irrelevant junk, CG failed to understand just how crucial that gear was to the overall economy.
    The loss of Mod slicing mats weren't addressed.
    You did mention the Guild tokens but no real details on that either.

    Yeah, I don't know about slicing mats. It wasn't addressed, but I don't know how much of a problem this is. In fairness, I have Jabba so I get lots of slicing mats that other players don't. It's hard for me to judge this one. Hopefully they'll look at data and see what's going on. If no one is buying them (because there were a few available, right?) then that's a pricing problem. If people are buying them, then they need to look at how that changes the overall amount of gear people are getting from the raids.

    As for guild tokens, I didn't see them say anything about guild tokens. I did see them say that they forgot about how some toons are purchasable with guild tokens and that not having them available for raid tokens is a problem. They also announced an intention to fix that problem in a future update. As for Guild Tokens themselves, I just don't know. I would prefer that they simply scrapped guild tokens altogether. They trickle in at such a slow rate now that you can't depend on them for anything. Better to kill the category and make sure that everything you were buying with GT is available in Raid Tokens.



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