Response to Raid Economy Update

Replies

  • I ran Mk1 #s based on what I could recall from the old raids & wasn't impressed w/ them.

    The Character Shards are super overpriced now & that eats into those totals a LOT when your trying to get a true picture of what you lost up to including those pieces for Shard conversion.
    This was using totals of 28/50 post Gear 11 doubling from 14/25 since I couldn't find the % chance for fully crafted gear.

    If it was low using just shards, I'd hate to think of how it looks when you figure fully crafted pieces have a bunch of other items in there.

  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Again, I used real data
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Again, I used real data
    You used real data but count part of drop as useless or convert it to mk2 by CB and BW. What is totally irrelevant for those who need this gear.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Profit
    281 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate

    There is always the accuracy arrow, but I can't recall your feelings on it
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate

    That's a non sequitur though. He probably meant "where is my 3k mk4 stun cuffs when the total amount I will ever need is much less?"
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    edited June 2023
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate

    That's a non sequitur though. He probably meant "where is my 3k mk4 stun cuffs when the total amount I will ever need is much less?"
    FYI, mk4 stun cuffs is not raid drob.
    Here is all possible raid drop(I've added total amount of this gear needed, if gear is obtainable through challenge/crystal and mk1 costs/does this gear was counted in TVF calculations as mk1 drop):
    licevghqbz45.jpg
    Not all costs I've found. But where is this threshold when gear drop becomes useless?
    Also this gear list didn't include full crafted gears that also includes some other parts like mk3 seinars and etc.
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate

    That's a non sequitur though. He probably meant "where is my 3k mk4 stun cuffs when the total amount I will ever need is much less?"
    So what is the problem if someone tells that he is missing MK 6 dets?
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    DeusArt wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    If only feels and recalls were more accurate

    That's a non sequitur though. He probably meant "where is my 3k mk4 stun cuffs when the total amount I will ever need is much less?"
    So what is the problem if someone tells that he is missing MK 6 dets?

    There is no problem. It is needed much less. When it is needed at that frequency and you have no supply, grab it.
  • nfidel2k
    559 posts Member
    One thing I’ve noticed is that I’m spending gear a little faster now. The ability to not only select what you want but also buy in bulk lets me get what I need for gear tiers quicker. Not saying this is a negative, but rather that it can make people think that we have less because we’re using more.
    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    edited June 2023
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    There is no problem. It is needed much less. When it is needed at that frequency and you have no supply, grab it.
    I don't know what to say. Does "much less" metric has any number to define it?
    MK 6 dets in total needed 10900 pieces(data in table). It's more than MK4 comlinks, Mk5 dets or MK8 electro Bionic (c). I just can't understand why this raid gear is being kicked off from the calculations and this forum is so stubbornly blocking any attempt to request and justify additional MK1 tier rewards.
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    DeusArt wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    There is no problem. It is needed much less. When it is needed at that frequency and you have no supply, grab it.
    I don't know what to say. Does "much less" metric has any number to define it?
    MK 6 dets in total needed 10900 pieces(data in table). It's more than MK4 comlinks, Mk5 dets or MK8 electro Bionic (c). I just can't understand why this raid gear is being kicked off from the calculations and this forum is so stubbornly blocking any attempt to request and justify additional MK1 tier rewards.

    The metric exists on swgoh.gg as well as your tables. I took your table as listing it down, so I have no doubt you listed anything wrong. "this forum" is not one unified thing. I didn't say anything about Tvf's calculation to be the best possible approximation. Much better than a calculation that assumes everything will get needed at the same pace.

    The reason gear types are designed in a skewed way as well as skewed supply (from the boxes) is to give the player a false sense of feeling that they are getting tons of stuff. It's a dominant design paradigm that spans much more than this company and game.

    Though I did say and am still saying any calculation that assumes all the gear we used to get from the raids were of value or of same value will reach a fallacious conclusion. Even if you assume the reward boxes used to have even odds, if you end up getting the same amount of each possible piece then you end up getting much more than you will ever need on most of the pieces.

    IF I see a calculation with sound assumptions backed up by the chest data of the old raids that doesn't ignore the frequency of demand to somewhat approximate a comparison, I'll take it seriously.

    What I hear when you say "we need more mkI's" is "I'm already getting to g12 at a much faster rate (with kyros as exception), but I want even more, I want anything up to g12 not be a thing for me asap". That's not something I can back up.



  • nfidel2k wrote: »
    One thing I’ve noticed is that I’m spending gear a little faster now. The ability to not only select what you want but also buy in bulk lets me get what I need for gear tiers quicker. Not saying this is a negative, but rather that it can make people think that we have less because we’re using more.

    I’ve noticed this too. Gearing individual toons is far faster as you can target purchasing what you need. This has released the bottlenecks for older toons on things like carbs and mk8 implants meaning people can also use way more of their other less useful gear.

    Personally I’ve been using a lot of the mk4 holo projectors recently, because I now have a surplus of mk3 stun cuffs through purchasing, and also just because gear tiers are opening up faster.

    Right now it does ‘feel’ like I’ve got less of the older ‘useless’ gear, but that’s just because the general gearing rate is happening much faster. I’ll take this over the older system any day. Complete Carte Blanche to purchase gear you need is going to revolutionise gearing older toons that aren’t subject to the kyro throttling.
    Account started June 2020. 100% FTP. 8.2m GP. JMK, JML, SLKR, and SEE. Exe and Levi. Ally code 117-269-921. Swgoh.gg
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    nfidel2k wrote: »
    One thing I’ve noticed is that I’m spending gear a little faster now. The ability to not only select what you want but also buy in bulk lets me get what I need for gear tiers quicker. Not saying this is a negative, but rather that it can make people think that we have less because we’re using more.

    I’ve noticed this too. Gearing individual toons is far faster as you can target purchasing what you need. This has released the bottlenecks for older toons on things like carbs and mk8 implants meaning people can also use way more of their other less useful gear.

    Personally I’ve been using a lot of the mk4 holo projectors recently, because I now have a surplus of mk3 stun cuffs through purchasing, and also just because gear tiers are opening up faster.

    Right now it does ‘feel’ like I’ve got less of the older ‘useless’ gear, but that’s just because the general gearing rate is happening much faster. I’ll take this over the older system any day. Complete Carte Blanche to purchase gear you need is going to revolutionise gearing older toons that aren’t subject to the kyro throttling.

    Complete Carte Blanche reminds me of ccbs. A serious bottleneck I can't alleviate. They didn't give us any of the good value convertible pieces in the mk1 bundles. Only possibility comes from carbantis, mk3 zaltin bacta etc. which has terribad conversion rate.
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    IF I see a calculation with sound assumptions backed up by the chest data of the old raids that doesn't ignore the frequency of demand to somewhat approximate a comparison, I'll take it seriously.
    And what define frequency? MK6 that needed 10900 pices and used 226 times is frequet gear? MK10 Holo Lense needed 6050 pices is frequent? Or only Carbs and Cuffs are frequent? Where is threshold?
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    There are other pieces that are out of touch with the game's economy elsewhere. Are these a plausible option for anyone at any stage of development at this value?

    ovdyu3o8ryom.jpg
  • DeusArt
    128 posts Member
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    There are other pieces that are out of touch with the game's economy elsewhere. Are these a plausible option for anyone at any stage of development at this value?

    ovdyu3o8ryom.jpg
    MK7 CEC could be crafted in full part and used in relic conversion
    MK7 Chiewab needed for gear a lot. If not - full gear part conversion.
    None of left G12 gear is reasonable for raid currency now, I totally focused on farming them from nodes, Get1 and shard shop.
    And MK2 gear is not so critical as MK1. I usually could prepare all G12 gear until unit is leveled and geared. Right now only pieces with MK1 gear is blocking me from applying G12 gear:
    m4i163l5umw6.png
    17phi9vp6t6t.png
    tjg4i1h0eamw.png
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    DeusArt wrote: »
    MaruMaru wrote: »
    There are other pieces that are out of touch with the game's economy elsewhere. Are these a plausible option for anyone at any stage of development at this value?

    ovdyu3o8ryom.jpg
    MK7 CEC could be crafted in full part and used in relic conversion
    MK7 Chiewab needed for gear a lot. If not - full gear part conversion.
    None of left G12 gear is reasonable for raid currency now, I totally focused on farming them from nodes, Get1 and shard shop.
    And MK2 gear is not so critical as MK1. I usually could prepare all G12 gear until unit is leveled and geared. Right now only pieces with MK1 gear is blocking me from applying G12 gear:
    m4i163l5umw6.png
    17phi9vp6t6t.png
    tjg4i1h0eamw.png

    Thanks but my intention was to show the relic scraps there. This stings to me, because I expect at least bit of value consistency even if there is some parity.

    Whichever currency is more in need for one depends on where they are in their roster building. It's perfectly normal to not be able to instantly catapult everything you want at that moment to g12. You have to admit it burns much faster than it used to last year.

    If you wanna know my side of it, previously g12+ pieces were always the last ones left for completion and while kyros are much needed, they wrapped before g12+ does. Right now it's pretty even. In a full gear completion future, it looks like g12+ will be more of a problem. Not sure since new releases will keep skewing these. Doesn't matter that much either as signal data and relic scraps became more of a concern.

    t0ioaw9dcx9s.jpg
  • MasterSeedy
    4995 posts Member
    What's interesting is that I see Mk1 gear as temporarily useful.

    Sure, if I were a new player starting out it would be useful for some many years I wouldn't think of it as "temporary", but we all know how zetas started off rare and you began by carefully judging which of a number of important zetas you were going to need first (then second then third). You saved up for them.

    Now? Now anyone over 8M gp should have zetas lying around. Maybe there's a useful zeta you haven't added, but you went without it long enough that you realized it was useful but not a big deal, and now you have a hundred or a thousand and you've filled at least some zetas you never thought you would.

    It's going to be like that with Mk1 tokens. After everyone is g11, you look around they're just not much you need. I suspect that as a player base we'll eventually be spending a lot of those Mk1 tokens on credits so that we can farm, level and discard mods at a much faster pace than before. We'll also be buying some gear for conversion to relic mats, but even so, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at how much of their future Mk1s go into currency.

    Things might feel tight now, and I am not without my own thoughts about improvements to the gear economy, but ultimately it won't be the number of Mk1s that are the problem. We'll either be complaining that we wish we could pick up white/green/blue gear in large lots for Mk1s so that we can cash it in for relic mats, or we won't be complaining at all. But either way, the problem won't be amount of Mk1. it will be how we think the store should be structured, if we have any prob elm with Mk1s at all.

    ========

    And thinking about structuring the store: there's more to that than just the choice of pricing and what gear should be available. PLEASE CG, put a rush on that update that separates out the different currencies? The UI is completely unmanageable.

    And while you're at it, put one lot of credits and one lot of ship credits in the Weekly Shipments. Make it a big one and easy to find, right at the top. I'm not complaining about the total availability of credits, just that it's silly to have us buy them in smaller lots when we used to not have to buy them at all. The old paperwork vs. fun argument, I know you've heard me say it before. So just add a 5m or 10m lot of credits to the weekly, would you please? It won't change the economy, it's just making it easier on your players.
  • MaruMaru
    3338 posts Member
    What's interesting is that I see Mk1 gear as temporarily useful.

    Sure, if I were a new player starting out it would be useful for some many years I wouldn't think of it as "temporary", but we all know how zetas started off rare and you began by carefully judging which of a number of important zetas you were going to need first (then second then third). You saved up for them.

    Now? Now anyone over 8M gp should have zetas lying around. Maybe there's a useful zeta you haven't added, but you went without it long enough that you realized it was useful but not a big deal, and now you have a hundred or a thousand and you've filled at least some zetas you never thought you would.

    It's going to be like that with Mk1 tokens. After everyone is g11, you look around they're just not much you need. I suspect that as a player base we'll eventually be spending a lot of those Mk1 tokens on credits so that we can farm, level and discard mods at a much faster pace than before. We'll also be buying some gear for conversion to relic mats, but even so, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at how much of their future Mk1s go into currency.

    Things might feel tight now, and I am not without my own thoughts about improvements to the gear economy, but ultimately it won't be the number of Mk1s that are the problem. We'll either be complaining that we wish we could pick up white/green/blue gear in large lots for Mk1s so that we can cash it in for relic mats, or we won't be complaining at all. But either way, the problem won't be amount of Mk1. it will be how we think the store should be structured, if we have any prob elm with Mk1s at all.

    ========

    And thinking about structuring the store: there's more to that than just the choice of pricing and what gear should be available. PLEASE CG, put a rush on that update that separates out the different currencies? The UI is completely unmanageable.

    And while you're at it, put one lot of credits and one lot of ship credits in the Weekly Shipments. Make it a big one and easy to find, right at the top. I'm not complaining about the total availability of credits, just that it's silly to have us buy them in smaller lots when we used to not have to buy them at all. The old paperwork vs. fun argument, I know you've heard me say it before. So just add a 5m or 10m lot of credits to the weekly, would you please? It won't change the economy, it's just making it easier on your players.

    Hey, I'm on a constant zeta bottleneck even when using all fleet rewards to grab approx. one daily. Boooo :D
  • MasterSeedy
    4995 posts Member
    Really? I'm surprised. But okay. I stand corrected.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    I don't have any issues with the store now that I know how it's laid out

    1 - guild currency
    2 - mk3
    3 - mk2
    4 - mk1

    it's a bit counterintuitive, but now i know it
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • scuba
    14034 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    I don't have any issues with the store now that I know how it's laid out

    1 - guild currency
    2 - mk3
    3 - mk2
    4 - mk1

    it's a bit counterintuitive, but now i know it

    So next update they will change it all around on you
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    And then I'll relearn it, shrug.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • With the two corrections of increased currency and the ability to buy shards, I believe the new raid system and rewards is overall an improvement.

    I can buy the gear I want to buy and I can hit the raids on my own time. All five factions have their own unique way to hit the Krayt and combining them creates room for further theory crafting.

    Suggestions for further improvement:
    1) The one gear hurt most by the raid changes was kyros. Before kyros could be purchased with GET2 acquired from the Challenge Pit and that source is now gone. While we are now able to purchase kyros with Mk2 tokens, the exchange rate is too high by about a factor of 5. Instead of 400 Mk2 per salvage, a cost of 80 Mk2 would put kyros similar in value to their GET2 prices.

    An alternative option to reducing their cost, would be to remove this bad deal entirely from Weekly Shipments and add a pair of kyros to each level of the personal track above the 500k level. This would simulate good performance on the old cPit and encourage individual improvement on the new raid.

    2) Make a decision on the 5-attack limit. The community is already establishing the 5 best teams to maximize scores. A consequence is that units not within those best choices could be ignored, or potentially an entire faction like Jawas that are currently underperforming. With the number of attacks already reduced from the 5-faction limit, I’d suggest removing the attack limit and simply cap an individual’s score to 13.5m which would require broader contribution across a guild.

    3) Create a Krayt tag. Rather than cycling through all of my units when I create/adjust my squads, I’d like to select the ones that are eligible to participate in the Krayt. Including such a tag could also allow units who are associated with Tatooine as potential characters. JKL might not have a faction bonus but could get included with the 4 Jedi. Scion Boba could be a hero unit with a Tusken tag or could interact with BHs.

    @CG_Tusken_Meathead
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    no need to tag CG about the 5+ attacks lol, just use it
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • I am currently using all of my attacks.

    Whether allowing more than 5 attacks is a bug or they are hedging and doing a live test, ultimately this is a resource management game. My decisions on how I plan to utilize my resources is dependent on the answer. A request for better communication and a decision on this matter is appropriate.
  • StarSon
    7411 posts Member
    I am currently using all of my attacks.

    Whether allowing more than 5 attacks is a bug or they are hedging and doing a live test, ultimately this is a resource management game. My decisions on how I plan to utilize my resources is dependent on the answer. A request for better communication and a decision on this matter is appropriate.

    I would like to make a request for enhanced reading skills on the part of other forumers.

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/263664/known-issue-krayt-dragon-hunt-attempt-max#latest
  • Road ahead and title update post made no mention of an attack limit and then the live stream indicated that you could post 7. It wasn’t until in game that attacks were limited to 5, but then attacks refreshed back to 5 on the next day. It was then 3 weeks ago that this interaction was called a bug. Since then, we’ve had two serious updates to the raid economy as well as a guild that hit max crate. I offered a suggestion that allows more theory crafting without breaking the bank up high.
  • StarSon
    7411 posts Member
    Road ahead and title update post made no mention of an attack limit and then the live stream indicated that you could post 7. It wasn’t until in game that attacks were limited to 5, but then attacks refreshed back to 5 on the next day. It was then 3 weeks ago that this interaction was called a bug. Since then, we’ve had two serious updates to the raid economy as well as a guild that hit max crate. I offered a suggestion that allows more theory crafting without breaking the bank up high.

    It was actually called a bug the day after the title update: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/263253/krayt-dragon-hunt-known-issues

    It was only listed as its own bug because the first attempt at a fix only corrected the roster refresh, not the attempt refresh.
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