Response to Raid Economy Update

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  • lucaefor
    95 posts Member
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    There's still added value in choosing your rewards - I can't see how that's a bad thing for young accounts.

    Having all your resources compete for the same currency isn't good if your income of that currency isn't high enough to cover your all your needs.

    Being given the choice between a carrot or an apple isn't going to stop you from starving to death.
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
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    lucaefor wrote: »
    There's still added value in choosing your rewards - I can't see how that's a bad thing for young accounts.

    Having all your resources compete for the same currency isn't good if your income of that currency isn't high enough to cover your all your needs.

    Being given the choice between a carrot or an apple isn't going to stop you from starving to death.

    But a single raid was never supposed to support all your needs - and never has. Same is true of 2 or 3 or 4 raids.

    Also, I'm seeing a lot of "this isn't equal to #1 rewards" - but it's not supposed to be. Only one person can get #1 rewards. This is rewards for 50 people. This is part of why rewards for placement wasn't optimal - because competing against your guild mates for rewards goes against the spirit of a guild event. You're doing the raid for the good of everyone in the guild now instead of just for yourself, and everyone benefits equally. Just like TW or TB where the rewards are shared even though some people do more work than others.

    Assuming the value is roughly on par with placing 25th in the raid, then yeah, it might hurt you a bit if you were getting #1 every raid - but all the people that were at the bottom and possibly struggling to post high enough damage numbers are going to get a boost from this - which helps everyone in the guild when it comes time for TW, TB and future raids.

    If you were carrying your guild before, you're still carrying them - and you still won't get rewards if you don't.

    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Options
    Also, I'm seeing a lot of "this isn't equal to #1 rewards" - but it's not supposed to be. Only one person can get #1 rewards. This is rewards for 50 people. This is part of why rewards for placement wasn't optimal - because competing against your guild mates for rewards goes against the spirit of a guild event. You're doing the raid for the good of everyone in the guild now instead of just for yourself, and everyone benefits equally. Just like TW or TB where the rewards are shared even though some people do more work than others.

    Assuming the value is roughly on par with placing 25th in the raid, then yeah, it might hurt you a bit if you were getting #1 every raid - but all the people that were at the bottom and possibly struggling to post high enough damage numbers are going to get a boost from this - which helps everyone in the guild when it comes time for TW, TB and future raids.

    If you were carrying your guild before, you're still carrying them - and you still won't get rewards if you don't.

    You are right on this, I should probably compare the new rewards against mid-rank rewards in the previous raids... it's just that my guild is so small that we used to complete raids in no more than 7-8 players, that is where my perception comes from.

    I guess I shall wait and see how the new raids will work and then make my calculations starting from there anyway.

  • MasterSeedy
    5102 posts Member
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    @herd_nerfer , you're wrong.

    First, most of that gear that you're saying was useless actually converted to relic mats -- a very substantial amount of relic mats that can't in any way be replaced by purchasing relic mats with Raid currency today.

    Second, you said this:
    I feel like people are sleeping on the fact that you can get exactly what gear you need when you need it.

    And this is not true. They killed the Guild Token income and GT income was THE place to get g11 finishers. There's simply no other reliable source for them. There is no reliable access to these in the new currencies, and thus you can't actually get the exactly the gear that you need if you're at all interested in bringing characters from g11 to g12.

    Now, they've said that they're going to fix that with respect to Mk4 Bacta Gel, but not with respect to Mk6 Droid Callers, a very important and frequently needed g11 finisher.

    You can't get exactly what you want when you want it. I've already noted this. How many other pieces that were routinely accessed through guild tokens are now problematic to access?

    AFAICT the only access to Mk5 Thermal Detonators is through a pack of 125 for an insane amount of currency. What if I don't want to pay for 125 at a time? TOO BAD FOR ME.

    And, of course, I also identified the main problem with relic mats. But there's another: because they made them ridiculously (and unjustifiably) expensive, they ALSO had to make the lots small so people could buy them at all. Otherwise you would need more currency than you're allowed to accumulate.

    But we don't need Bronziums in lots of 2. We need them in lots of 30 and 40.

    Before we let gear passively accrue and then we could buy 100 or 200 bronziums when we wanted.

    Now we are forced to be click monkeys, taking every tiny package along the way so that we'll have our bronziums built up in 12 days from now.

    That's not when we need it, and it's also not fun. I don't want to be clicking repeatedly for tiny rewards. Just sell 30 at a time for a reasonable amount of Mk1 so we're not scrolling interminably every 6 hours and going tricking blind worrying that 8 days from now we'll be 2 bronziums short.

    The relic material economy has just become insane, and there's no way you can honestly claim that we can simply purchase what we need when we need it if you're talking g11 finishers or Mk5 thermals or (for the next few days until they fix it) Mk4 Bacta Gel and certainly not for relic mats, so I don't know why you did.
  • ZogZog
    2 posts Member
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    If i can made some suggestion if things i want to see in New raid mode. Increase of reward for old raid, add some filtre or onglet by money in Guild store (and others store at same time), stop thé 3 days of waiting on old raid to has the reward when you have finish it s ultra boring, correct traya counti g point at phase 4 where u do 0 points when you not fight traya, nihilus and sion give 0 points it s not normal, jawa engineer need to be more often buyable because it never appears in store or too lower often. Made it permanent because New or récent players will never been able to do the jawa team. Put more team for krayt raid, if you put old republic u can put old sith too for example, i understand stay in a thème of planet but old republic is not a tatooine specific. Old sith can go fight a krayt too ;p. Sorry for approximative english but not my natural language.
  • DeusArt
    133 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    What’s needed
    1. Credits should part of regular reward
    2. Mk6 Droid Callers should be added to guild shop for MK1
    3. Wamp, Hoda, Rolo, Imp Droid should be added to shop for MK3 currency
    4. Mod slicing mats(1-4 tiers) should be in guild store all in one time
    Post edited by DeusArt on
  • TVF
    36651 posts Member
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    mk6 callers are in the guild shop, you want them added there for mk1

    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
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    @herd_nerfer , you're wrong.

    First, most of that gear that you're saying was useless actually converted to relic mats -- a very substantial amount of relic mats that can't in any way be replaced by purchasing relic mats with Raid currency today.

    Second, you said this:
    I feel like people are sleeping on the fact that you can get exactly what gear you need when you need it.

    And this is not true. They killed the Guild Token income and GT income was THE place to get g11 finishers. There's simply no other reliable source for them. There is no reliable access to these in the new currencies, and thus you can't actually get the exactly the gear that you need if you're at all interested in bringing characters from g11 to g12.

    Now, they've said that they're going to fix that with respect to Mk4 Bacta Gel, but not with respect to Mk6 Droid Callers, a very important and frequently needed g11 finisher.

    You can't get exactly what you want when you want it. I've already noted this. How many other pieces that were routinely accessed through guild tokens are now problematic to access?

    AFAICT the only access to Mk5 Thermal Detonators is through a pack of 125 for an insane amount of currency. What if I don't want to pay for 125 at a time? TOO BAD FOR ME.

    And, of course, I also identified the main problem with relic mats. But there's another: because they made them ridiculously (and unjustifiably) expensive, they ALSO had to make the lots small so people could buy them at all. Otherwise you would need more currency than you're allowed to accumulate.

    But we don't need Bronziums in lots of 2. We need them in lots of 30 and 40.

    Before we let gear passively accrue and then we could buy 100 or 200 bronziums when we wanted.

    Now we are forced to be click monkeys, taking every tiny package along the way so that we'll have our bronziums built up in 12 days from now.

    That's not when we need it, and it's also not fun. I don't want to be clicking repeatedly for tiny rewards. Just sell 30 at a time for a reasonable amount of Mk1 so we're not scrolling interminably every 6 hours and going tricking blind worrying that 8 days from now we'll be 2 bronziums short.

    The relic material economy has just become insane, and there's no way you can honestly claim that we can simply purchase what we need when we need it if you're talking g11 finishers or Mk5 thermals or (for the next few days until they fix it) Mk4 Bacta Gel and certainly not for relic mats, so I don't know why you did.

    I'm not saying it's perfect - it's not - but is it worse than what we had before? We have to see what changes they're making to really know that, I think.

    I realize SSC has been reduced somewhat - but MK6 callers are available in the shard shop. Now, that's not as good as having them available for MK1 - but unless I'm missing something (happy to be corrected on this if it's wrong) - almost no other G7-G11 piece is going to be unavailable for MK1 after the fix aside from Kyro (i think) - which is cheaper to get from other avenues anyway.

    I do see your point about relic mats and the conversion of those - and again, I'm not saying this is perfect but I think it's going to take a little time to figure out exactly where the new pinches are going to show up - because the updated rewards actually seems remove a lot of pinches.

    I think there is something to be said for how fast this new system will allow us to gear up characters. Hoarding gear is less crucial since the rare purple gear drops from raids are almost always available (barring MK6 callers, as you've rightly pointed out). I think it's likely that after you get to G12 on a given character, or group of characters that you're focusing on - it should free up considerable amounts of MK1 currency to convert to relic mats. Higher level relic mats remain a problem.

    I guess what I'm saying is that the new system changes the entire dynamic of how we handle our gear stash and manage these resources - trying to apply the old way of doing things in a 1:1 way to how we'll have to do things after the changes may not make sense.

    FWIW, I agree with pretty much all your criticisms of the current reward structure. I'm just not convinced yet that we'll necessarily be worse off (after Wednesday). Time will tell.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • MasterSeedy
    5102 posts Member
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    I guess what I'm saying is that the new system changes the entire dynamic of how we handle our gear stash and manage these resources - trying to apply the old way of doing things in a 1:1 way to how we'll have to do things after the changes may not make sense.

    I agree with this. I think it's complicated, and I hate the idea of buying credits, but I haven't been banging on that too much because I just don't know for sure how often I'll need to buy credits that I didn't before, etc.

    There is a lot we don't know, you're correct. And I'm certainly willing to wait on some things before I judge even if (like with credits) I feel very iffy about the current status quo.
  • Gawejn
    1125 posts Member
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    I would lie if i would say that i dont like possibility of getting what i want from raid rewards. This is great. I was thinking about this for a long time after receiving crap from haat and sith raid. Thats positive. Currency over boxes is better in my opinion.

    But negative is that some gear is overpriced like twice, amount of tokens mk1 mk2 is like 2 times less than it should be, relic stuff is a joke with amounts to buy and prices, no kyrotechs.

    I dont like also this scrolling thru guild shop. Why not ad a pointer to every currency at the top which i could on and off and see what is there in the shop. Or i could just press currency and it shows stuff to buy acorrding to this currency...
    That would be great
  • Options
    ragnoris wrote: »
    ragnoris wrote: »
    Could someone please take the rewards from simmed pit and calculate how many raid tokens it would cost to purchase all of them.

    Then could someone please do the same for simmed tank.

    Then could someone please do the same for hstr.

    And please show your work so we can see what assumptions are used. This would quantify how much we actually lost. I would do the math myself but I can only find one screenshot for each raid which is obviously not a sufficient sample size for solid calculations.

    Based on what I had in those screenshots the new hstr gives more than enough tokens to purchase everything from those three combined, but I keep reading that hstr is causing a reduction in rewards and am trying to figure out what I’m missing in my math.

    For reference I picked a random piece of gear that was available for both guild tokens and raid 1/2 tokens and used that as a basis for converting guild tokens to raid tokens.

    Before you were passively getting 2M credits between francot, att, sith. Now you have to choose between buying credits or gear. Very often you got fully crafted pieces which now you don't. Also your excess gear you didn't need was feeding the scavenger, which you'll notice very very soon once it starts drying up. You lost 4200 Guild tokens between the two raids that bought you further gear/shards. You lost Get 1 and if you were clearing CPit Get 2 which is completely removed. You were getting mod slicing mods from Sith, you were getting 182k ship credits from ATT

    While the idea is nice that you can buy what you need, you're still at a noticeable net loss. Because now you don't get anything passively as before, now you have to spend your tokens on them. And on top of that you lost two different currencies, and materials above mentioned. A person doesn't have to be a mathematician to realize it's a set back. And your overall net loss comes down to how often was your guild running raids. We weren't even clearing CPit, and even we feel ripped off, I can only imagine how 250M+ Guilds feel who actually cleared CPit as well.

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I see this as an attempt to try forcing people to put a ton of resources into teams that nobody actually wants.

    I don't think nerfing our rewards was the way to get people interested in those factions. Maybe overhaul them?

    In any case they could of easily left alone the 3 old raids, and introduced their new mk1-2-3 stuff for Kyrat only. And then people could decide whether they want to work on those factions or stick with the other raids.

    Everything you mentioned can be purchased for tokens/assigned a token value.

    Please show me where you Get Get 1 and Get 2 for MK1-MK2-MK3
    Plase show me where you get Guild tokens for MK1-MK2-MK3
    Please show me where you get Mod slicing mats for MK1-MK2-MK3 (There is ONE single slot in the store)
    Pease show me where you get Ship currency for MK1-MK2-MK3.

    Mod slicing and ship currency are there for Mk1. GET and guild tokens are not.

    Credits/ship credits seem to share a spot and arent even always available.
  • Zumwan
    358 posts Member
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    Why don't we wait until the update is live to know of we need to keep complaining or if maybe now the rewards are acceptable?
    Thank you for taking player feedback into consideration.
  • Yrendar
    14 posts Member
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    This is not the thing, we wanted.
    I agree with the opening post 100%.
  • nottenst
    703 posts Member
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    The new rearrangement of the milestones and rewards makes it appear that our guild would be doing better with the Krayt Raid than the Sith Raid if we do just as well as we did in the first time at the Krayt Raid.

    That is an improvement for that comparison.
  • ShadowJediKnight
    127 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    Still FAR from what we we're getting before!

    CPIT awarded 7 aeros to the top 40 players. It costs 400 MK3 tokens to earn 2 aeros. To equal what we earned before, someone would need to spend 1400 MK3 tokens for 7 aeros. That number is locked behind the 130M crate. And since only the top 92 guilds reached that benchmark, it's still a LONG way from what we were earning before.

    Kyros still aren't available in the raid store.

    And still no mention of credits, ship credits, guild tokens, GET1, or GET2.
  • Options
    Okay this change looks promising, although whoever created that excel table with the new payout structure needs to learn to use commas in number strings....

    Overall hitting the tier 2 guild crate on Krayt is now better than new HSTR and pretty close to the old system. It is still overall a net reduction in rewards from calculations I've seen (using both Top 20 or Top 10 averages), BUT the fact you can choose the gear you want now instead of RNG choosing, this makes up for it....imo. We will lose the excess to easily use for scavenger, but it can be overcome.

    Getting to 25M for that crate 2 I think should be doable by most guilds who were completing CPIT with a bit of focus. And from there the rewards get better, and being able to use Mk3 for Impulse Detectors, Droid Brains and G Keypads is huge for higher tier guilds who had excess aeros.
  • scuba
    14085 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    I am still waiting on the changes that will make this statement true @CG_Tusken_Meathead
    While we will reduce the amount of locations where you can earn rewards, we’ve taken this into close consideration so that actively participating in a raid, regardless of difficulty, will earn rewards from the Personal track that equal and replace the old "simmed" rewards - ensuring that all Players retain access to those goods.

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/261617/road-ahead-february-2023#latest
  • Yrendar
    14 posts Member
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    Now you have spreadsheets with the improvements, which are welcome, but you still not get (or WILL not get) to see our problems and fears, namely:
    Credits/ship building material
    Slice stuff
    GUILD TOKEN/GET1/GET2
    Aeromag
    Kyrotech
    SHARDS.
    Come on...
  • Options
    Yrendar wrote: »
    Now you have spreadsheets with the improvements, which are welcome, but you still not get (or WILL not get) to see our problems and fears, namely:
    Credits/ship building material
    Slice stuff
    GUILD TOKEN/GET1/GET2
    Aeromag
    Kyrotech
    SHARDS.
    Come on...

    Aeromags they addressed with this and are more attainable than before. A guild that has 50 players with a G12 Old Republic team (aka JKR) can get the 2nd krayt easy (450k dmg each member) and that gives 600 Mk3 2x per week, enough to buy 6 aero mags. That is MUCH more attainable than a ton of r5 required teams to clear CPIT.

    Shards more quickly available for purchase, can also purchase whatever gear you want. Save your GET2 from TB for Kyros...buy they other stuff from here
  • Deathman_Monkey
    23 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    Where has has the old guild milestone 2 gone??? the 26M one!!!!

    nxgejpasunsn.png
  • Fieldgulls
    425 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    I guess this change is better than their first attempt which was laughable. However, why even have a personal track? Rewards for it are silly now…remove it and add something else or revert personal track back. Time to schedule another meeting of the minds over there.
  • zatchy
    132 posts Member
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    Rewards **** before, changing when you get crap rewards doesn’t make it not crap rewards.

    CG F.

    The new raid is garbage. Forced to play for crap.
  • Gawejn
    1125 posts Member
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    Hahahahahahaha
    So it seems that nerf is still there. Nothing really changed. Small amount of mk3 and we play krayt dragon not hstr...

    But 4th may nerf is still there....

    And so many players belived that they will get same stuff as before...
    It is unbelivable how they treat players...
  • osbourne
    34 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    am i reading this chart right? it looks to me like they've removed around 4000 Mk 1 tokens from the personal rewards along with a significant number of Mk 2. Sure, they've frontloaded Mk 1 and 2 in the guild rewards but if they are removing large amounts from the personal track, we're not really much better off. I thought the point was to give us more since the rewards were lower than they should have been. To add 4k-ish to the guild crate and then remove 4k-ish from the personal rewards is not increasing the rewards. We are getting more Mk 2 and 3 earlier which is nice, but those Mk1 rewards aren't insignificant.
    2jtd1ybwlo1o.png
  • Options
    The statement in the screenshot says it all. No real change. Lower guilds can now choose to do Krayt instead of HSR but effectively get the same reward as that raid (with much more effort from everyone).

    Higher guilds see practically no change. Or worse - there is now no incentive to try that little bit harder to achieve a better personal score. The extra reward for someone who gets 4.25m compared to a guild mate who is stuck on 2.2m is... 100 Mk3. Why bother?

    mtuvnm1fu11s.png
  • Eyo
    34 posts Member
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    Why is there no 200m milestone? The jump from 130m to 265m is ridiculous.
  • osbourne
    34 posts Member
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    This is disappointing. I'd love it if they would post their math and value conversions to illustrate how they think these rewards are at least the same value as what we were getting before. Especially when everything I've seen shows pretty clearly that we are getting much less.
  • Options
    My post got nuked attempt number 2

    Good that it mostly removes the need to farm hstr because it offers more rewards than krayt for certain guilds than it did in v1.0.

    But it still feels like a nerf even if it actually isn’t. I haven’t done the number crunch myself and yeah what rank you are using for hstr and cpit has made for a wide variety of answers. To me it doesn’t matter if it is or isn’t a nerf because it most certainly not a significant increase just like all past raids were.

    My other issue with the rewards is that it brings back managing certain mats that mid and end game players had moved on from. I don’t want to manage my credits. I moved beyond that 4-5 years ago. I don’t want to farm 5 blue/purple slicing mats the passive influx was more than enough and I still have too many 5a or 6x mods to work on.

    Most of all it’ll be harder now for guilds to make the jump from one crate to the next as the personal track just doesn’t offer enough rewards anymore.

    I don’t know this raid just seems so disappointing that it’s hard for me to get excited about the 15-20 heroes I need to get to r8 so I can do my 10.4 million fair share of max rewards.

    Finally we still don’t have any guidance on the new new raid cadence, whether success in this raid will be required to play the next one, and will the next one offer more rewards. I can’t get excited about gearing teams and I have no idea on my ROI. So I’m just left feeling disappointed.
  • Vengence
    1116 posts Member
    edited May 2023
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    I’m not sure what to think about the motivations here. The forums bring the math, the arguments and we get “not change to the overall rewards” did someone think we wouldn’t notice?

    Honestly the raids (pit/tank/Sith) had a major part in the gear economy and so revamping the whole reward system was never gonna work unless you change the entire economy

    Not surprised with the token change and the mindset maybe this will shut us up just disappointed once again
  • Options
    When in doubt CG always reverts back to their “sleight of hand” signature move. Might be time to move on.
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