Response to Raid Economy Update

Replies

  • Fieldgulls
    425 posts Member
    edited May 2023
    Options
    In totality it is not better….again sleight of hand. Rewards = currency and there is the price of items to buy with said currency. Need to focus on the entire picture. Don’t let them fool you…also only simmed raids where pit and HAAT. Then you had two other raid rewards.
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
    edited May 2023
    Options
    Gawejn wrote: »

    For 25mil in krayt guild gets less around 33% mk1 than before. So it can be 21k less if you do 9 raids in month. So 3 months less rewards in a year...

    Less than all combined raids in the previous system? Edit: if so, what placement are those calculations based on? 1st place? 20th? 40th?

    That's after converting the additional 3035 mk2 and 750 mk3 per raid in the 25m box to mk1 value?

    Edit 2: This looks like a pretty objective break-down of the post-change rewards as compared to the initial release. Your 33% figure doesn't agree with this. That being said, there's probably a lot of ways to approach this mathematically and everyone is going to make different assumptions when it comes to certain things due to personal bias or lack of information.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/13d8hl1/updated_raid_reward_comparison_postchanges/?sort=confidence
    Post edited by herd_nerfer on
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Gawejn
    1125 posts Member
    Options
    Gawejn wrote: »

    For 25mil in krayt guild gets less around 33% mk1 than before. So it can be 21k less if you do 9 raids in month. So 3 months less rewards in a year...

    Less than all combined raids in the previous system? Edit: if so, what placement are those calculations based on? 1st place? 20th? 40th?

    That's after converting the additional 3035 mk2 and 750 mk3 per raid in the 25m box to mk1 value?

    Edit 2: This looks like a pretty objective break-down of the post-change rewards as compared to the initial release. Your 33% figure doesn't agree with this. That being said, there's probably a lot of ways to approach this mathematically and everyone is going to make different assumptions when it comes to certain things due to personal bias or lack of information.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/13d8hl1/updated_raid_reward_comparison_postchanges/?sort=confidence

    Yes, i know this post. I asked about base data. I didnt agree with it, so couse of that i did math. From my calculations for mk1 it is 33% nerf. Minimum. If you dont wanna belive me you can do the math. My base data was 30 days, maxed tickets 4 raids rewards so credits, ship credits, mods materials, , guild tokens, gear from pit, haat hstr ( no full gear and only can be obtained for mk1). Cpit data only credits. Place in hstr 8 and cpit 22.
    29k mk1 less per month.
    Mk2 and mk3 comparison is different calculation.
    It was very simple math.

  • Options
    They cut the rewards by 70%. After the community called them out, they returned 20%. At the end of the day, they cut our rewards by 50%. And they think they can get away with this.

    Tell the truth - you made up those numbers didn't you? Can you show me some actual math that supports the statement that they cut our rewards by 50%? If you can't show us how you arrived at these numbers then stop using them. It's simply not true.

    I do think we're getting less now - and I'm not happy about that - but we've got much greater access to a lot of things that we didn't have before AND we have a choice of what rewards we take and when we take them. It's going to take some time to figure out exactly where the new pressure points are and formulate a strategy to work around them.

    In my opinion there are still things that CG needs to do to right the boat - more consistent access to bronzium wire scrap, credits, and ship building materials for instance - but throwing out ridiculous numbers just ensures that they'll ignore your post and might actually convince another player who hasn't done their due diligence that you're stating facts, when you aren't. All that does is create noise that makes the conversation more difficult to parse for someone that cares to try.

    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    This is an artifact of retro-fitting the old raid system into the new one. It won't change and if you think about it - it wouldn't matter if it did - your guild can still only earn raid tickets at a fixed maximum rate. If everyone always got 600 tickets a day and your guild is full, at best you would be able to launch it every three days. So instead of getting your rewards an hour after someone cleared the raid, now you get your raid rewards right before the next one starts. Your employer probably does the same thing with your paychecks. There's literally no difference except for that first raid - you have to wait a couple of days for the rewards. After that, you're back on schedule and it never matters again.

    I'm not sure why people are so focused on this - this is literally a non-issue but it's taking up a lot of oxygen in the conversation.

    1. Your guild actulaly completed the raid Monday morning but won't receive payout until Wednesday.
    2. The next GAC round locks Monday night.
    3. That raid currency could be used to get a character from G12 to R3 which makes them and their team now Datacron eligible.

    You're honestly suggesting that's not a big deal? Its new to this raid system and its a step back.
    Your point about the paycheck is actually perfect. You used to be paid every day but now your employer is saying they will pay you once a week. You're honestly suggesting thats not a difference that people should take note of?
  • Options
    We can keep discussing it but judging by the pack prices for their new Lord of the Trash Graphics game they won't ever change. The raid nerf is still in effect they just altered the distribution.
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
    edited May 2023
    Options
    They cut the rewards by 70%. After the community called them out, they returned 20%. At the end of the day, they cut our rewards by 50%. And they think they can get away with this.

    Tell the truth - you made up those numbers didn't you? Can you show me some actual math that supports the statement that they cut our rewards by 50%? If you can't show us how you arrived at these numbers then stop using them. It's simply not true.

    I do think we're getting less now - and I'm not happy about that - but we've got much greater access to a lot of things that we didn't have before AND we have a choice of what rewards we take and when we take them. It's going to take some time to figure out exactly where the new pressure points are and formulate a strategy to work around them.

    In my opinion there are still things that CG needs to do to right the boat - more consistent access to bronzium wire scrap, credits, and ship building materials for instance - but throwing out ridiculous numbers just ensures that they'll ignore your post and might actually convince another player who hasn't done their due diligence that you're stating facts, when you aren't. All that does is create noise that makes the conversation more difficult to parse for someone that cares to try.

    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    This is an artifact of retro-fitting the old raid system into the new one. It won't change and if you think about it - it wouldn't matter if it did - your guild can still only earn raid tickets at a fixed maximum rate. If everyone always got 600 tickets a day and your guild is full, at best you would be able to launch it every three days. So instead of getting your rewards an hour after someone cleared the raid, now you get your raid rewards right before the next one starts. Your employer probably does the same thing with your paychecks. There's literally no difference except for that first raid - you have to wait a couple of days for the rewards. After that, you're back on schedule and it never matters again.

    I'm not sure why people are so focused on this - this is literally a non-issue but it's taking up a lot of oxygen in the conversation.

    1. Your guild actulaly completed the raid Monday morning but won't receive payout until Wednesday.
    2. The next GAC round locks Monday night.
    3. That raid currency could be used to get a character from G12 to R3 which makes them and their team now Datacron eligible.

    You're honestly suggesting that's not a big deal? Its new to this raid system and its a step back.
    Your point about the paycheck is actually perfect. You used to be paid every day but now your employer is saying they will pay you once a week. You're honestly suggesting thats not a difference that people should take note of?

    Yes, I'm actually saying that after the first raid it makes absolutely no difference - just like after that first paycheck it makes absolutely no difference. You still get paid exactly the same thing that you would have got paid if you got it the day of - the only difference is waiting a few days. Does it make a difference right now today? In your case, yes, apparently. After next week it means nothing - makes no difference at all. None.
    Gawejn wrote: »

    Yes, i know this post. I asked about base data. I didnt agree with it, so couse of that i did math. From my calculations for mk1 it is 33% nerf. Minimum. If you dont wanna belive me you can do the math. My base data was 30 days, maxed tickets 4 raids rewards so credits, ship credits, mods materials, , guild tokens, gear from pit, haat hstr ( no full gear and only can be obtained for mk1). Cpit data only credits. Place in hstr 8 and cpit 22.
    29k mk1 less per month.
    Mk2 and mk3 comparison is different calculation.
    It was very simple math.

    So you did the math based on above average performance in the raids you mentioned. That immediately skews your numbers to YOUR situation and not the average player. Everyone is getting the same rewards in the new raids so to make an apples to apples comparison you can't use outlier data.

    Did you account for the Mk2 and Mk3 currencies or is your 33% figure only considering Mk1?

    Edit: just re-read your post and caught the "Mk2 and Mk3 comparison is different calculation" - but you can't say that rewards are being nerfed by 33% and leave out two of the components of the rewards. Mk3 buys relic mats that cost lots of G12 gear to produce. Mk2 buys G12 gear that you were getting in other raids. Those rewards are very relevant to the comparison and to leave them out and say, "our rewards are being nerfed by 33%" is disingenuous at best.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • nfidel2k
    559 posts Member
    Options
    They cut the rewards by 70%. After the community called them out, they returned 20%. At the end of the day, they cut our rewards by 50%. And they think they can get away with this.

    Tell the truth - you made up those numbers didn't you? Can you show me some actual math that supports the statement that they cut our rewards by 50%? If you can't show us how you arrived at these numbers then stop using them. It's simply not true.

    I do think we're getting less now - and I'm not happy about that - but we've got much greater access to a lot of things that we didn't have before AND we have a choice of what rewards we take and when we take them. It's going to take some time to figure out exactly where the new pressure points are and formulate a strategy to work around them.

    In my opinion there are still things that CG needs to do to right the boat - more consistent access to bronzium wire scrap, credits, and ship building materials for instance - but throwing out ridiculous numbers just ensures that they'll ignore your post and might actually convince another player who hasn't done their due diligence that you're stating facts, when you aren't. All that does is create noise that makes the conversation more difficult to parse for someone that cares to try.

    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    This is an artifact of retro-fitting the old raid system into the new one. It won't change and if you think about it - it wouldn't matter if it did - your guild can still only earn raid tickets at a fixed maximum rate. If everyone always got 600 tickets a day and your guild is full, at best you would be able to launch it every three days. So instead of getting your rewards an hour after someone cleared the raid, now you get your raid rewards right before the next one starts. Your employer probably does the same thing with your paychecks. There's literally no difference except for that first raid - you have to wait a couple of days for the rewards. After that, you're back on schedule and it never matters again.

    I'm not sure why people are so focused on this - this is literally a non-issue but it's taking up a lot of oxygen in the conversation.

    1. Your guild actulaly completed the raid Monday morning but won't receive payout until Wednesday.
    2. The next GAC round locks Monday night.
    3. That raid currency could be used to get a character from G12 to R3 which makes them and their team now Datacron eligible.

    You're honestly suggesting that's not a big deal? Its new to this raid system and its a step back.
    Your point about the paycheck is actually perfect. You used to be paid every day but now your employer is saying they will pay you once a week. You're honestly suggesting thats not a difference that people should take note of?

    Yes, I'm actually saying that after the first raid it makes absolutely no difference - just like after that first paycheck it makes absolutely no difference. You still get paid exactly the same thing that you would have got paid if you got it the day of - the only difference is waiting a few days. Does it make a difference right now today? In your case, yes, apparently. After next week it means nothing - makes no difference at all. None.
    Gawejn wrote: »

    Yes, i know this post. I asked about base data. I didnt agree with it, so couse of that i did math. From my calculations for mk1 it is 33% nerf. Minimum. If you dont wanna belive me you can do the math. My base data was 30 days, maxed tickets 4 raids rewards so credits, ship credits, mods materials, , guild tokens, gear from pit, haat hstr ( no full gear and only can be obtained for mk1). Cpit data only credits. Place in hstr 8 and cpit 22.
    29k mk1 less per month.
    Mk2 and mk3 comparison is different calculation.
    It was very simple math.

    So you did the math based on above average performance in the raids you mentioned. That immediately skews your numbers to YOUR situation and not the average player. Everyone is getting the same rewards in the new raids so to make an apples to apples comparison you can't use outlier data.

    Did you account for the Mk2 and Mk3 currencies or is your 33% figure only considering Mk1?

    The difference is psychological, not material. It’s easier to stomach waiting when you have something to do, like spend rewards and/or earn more tickets. Waiting to start something that has already started, or finish something that has been finished, leaves players with too much time to think about doing something else like another game. Krayt makes sense to have the 48 hour window because of the personal track rewards, but they need to be incentivizing.

    As for the math, I’d remind that simmed rewards were static for evryone. I’ve done a bit of my own math, but I don’t have the probability tables for the gear boxes, so I will admit I have to rely on others a bit. However no calculations I have seen include everything (credits, shards, etc) and show the rewards equal previous raids.
    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
  • Gawejn
    1125 posts Member
    Options
    They cut the rewards by 70%. After the community called them out, they returned 20%. At the end of the day, they cut our rewards by 50%. And they think they can get away with this.

    Tell the truth - you made up those numbers didn't you? Can you show me some actual math that supports the statement that they cut our rewards by 50%? If you can't show us how you arrived at these numbers then stop using them. It's simply not true.

    I do think we're getting less now - and I'm not happy about that - but we've got much greater access to a lot of things that we didn't have before AND we have a choice of what rewards we take and when we take them. It's going to take some time to figure out exactly where the new pressure points are and formulate a strategy to work around them.

    In my opinion there are still things that CG needs to do to right the boat - more consistent access to bronzium wire scrap, credits, and ship building materials for instance - but throwing out ridiculous numbers just ensures that they'll ignore your post and might actually convince another player who hasn't done their due diligence that you're stating facts, when you aren't. All that does is create noise that makes the conversation more difficult to parse for someone that cares to try.

    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    This is an artifact of retro-fitting the old raid system into the new one. It won't change and if you think about it - it wouldn't matter if it did - your guild can still only earn raid tickets at a fixed maximum rate. If everyone always got 600 tickets a day and your guild is full, at best you would be able to launch it every three days. So instead of getting your rewards an hour after someone cleared the raid, now you get your raid rewards right before the next one starts. Your employer probably does the same thing with your paychecks. There's literally no difference except for that first raid - you have to wait a couple of days for the rewards. After that, you're back on schedule and it never matters again.

    I'm not sure why people are so focused on this - this is literally a non-issue but it's taking up a lot of oxygen in the conversation.

    1. Your guild actulaly completed the raid Monday morning but won't receive payout until Wednesday.
    2. The next GAC round locks Monday night.
    3. That raid currency could be used to get a character from G12 to R3 which makes them and their team now Datacron eligible.

    You're honestly suggesting that's not a big deal? Its new to this raid system and its a step back.
    Your point about the paycheck is actually perfect. You used to be paid every day but now your employer is saying they will pay you once a week. You're honestly suggesting thats not a difference that people should take note of?

    Yes, I'm actually saying that after the first raid it makes absolutely no difference - just like after that first paycheck it makes absolutely no difference. You still get paid exactly the same thing that you would have got paid if you got it the day of - the only difference is waiting a few days. Does it make a difference right now today? In your case, yes, apparently. After next week it means nothing - makes no difference at all. None.
    Gawejn wrote: »

    Yes, i know this post. I asked about base data. I didnt agree with it, so couse of that i did math. From my calculations for mk1 it is 33% nerf. Minimum. If you dont wanna belive me you can do the math. My base data was 30 days, maxed tickets 4 raids rewards so credits, ship credits, mods materials, , guild tokens, gear from pit, haat hstr ( no full gear and only can be obtained for mk1). Cpit data only credits. Place in hstr 8 and cpit 22.
    29k mk1 less per month.
    Mk2 and mk3 comparison is different calculation.
    It was very simple math.

    So you did the math based on above average performance in the raids you mentioned. That immediately skews your numbers to YOUR situation and not the average player. Everyone is getting the same rewards in the new raids so to make an apples to apples comparison you can't use outlier data.

    Did you account for the Mk2 and Mk3 currencies or is your 33% figure only considering Mk1?

    I dont want to convince you. Rewards will convince you, when you will expierience tru some time how fast you are progressing in new mode of currencies.
    I only compared data for mk1. It is answer how much mk1 i need to get the same rewards for mk1 if i do sim on pit haat place 8 in hstr and 22 in cpit. The spreadsheet ( @Ultra ) you mentioned contains data for placing in top10 hstr too. But their calculation is mistaken in my opinion. I did the math and those data are not correct.
    Btw I still need to make calculations for mk2 and mk3.
  • Options
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Gawejn
    1125 posts Member
    Options
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.

    Yes about choosing rewards. I like that. And thats a big plus. You will use your rewards for the best to get gear you need. And for some time it will work great. Im so sure of it.
    About data i used, same data as everyone can use. I didnt include average about gear from pit and haat but the lowest rewards. Only salvage and no full gear which in fact was double. I didnt do mind trick to calculate even one double drop of full furnace. No prototypes which was also double. In pit and haat everyone was getting same rewards. So no mind tricks with data.
    Also according to new currency some of the rewards from haat or pit are more expensive than others. Example blue gear from haat. I used lowest expensive possible drops for calculations. So no tricks about this too. And math always shows numbers..33% we were getting more than we have now for mk1.
  • nfidel2k
    559 posts Member
    Options
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.

    Agreed. Also why the probability tables for the gear boxes are important, because with them you could establish a baseline for how much on average each of the previous raids gave in new raid currency, and from there establish what the minimum box was needed to match that. Even with krayt, where you could establish by guild crate what the minimum personal crate was needed.

    As for choosing your rewards, I agree that is a positive providing the price and availability of the items were consistent. But others have already shown some indications that there are jumps between raid token tiers already, and that’s without calculating the difference in rates that those currencies are obtained at.
    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
  • TVF
    36651 posts Member
    Options
    nfidel2k wrote: »
    As for the math, I’d remind that simmed rewards were static for evryone. I’ve done a bit of my own math, but I don’t have the probability tables for the gear boxes, so I will admit I have to rely on others a bit. However no calculations I have seen include everything (credits, shards, etc) and show the rewards equal previous raids.

    I've seen a study that showed at 130m guild box you are roughly equal to the old rewards with top 10 hstr finish as the baseline.

    I did my own study based on my personal tracked data for 72 days of raids, where i got top 10 hstr every time, and my numbers matched up with that. My study included everything (credits, shards, etc). Feel free to ask for particular numbers I tracked.

    The idea that you should have to get to 130m as a guild just to get the rewards you were previously getting is of course a separate discussion.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • zatchy
    132 posts Member
    Options
    I still say being forced to raid for crap rewards is an awful update. This raid will get old super quick (if it hasn’t already), but you’ll be forced to keep playing to help your guild.

    Everything CG does of late is designed to force players to engage longer and longer. Fun be damned. Rewards be damned. CG wants your time and money….that’s it. They don’t care if players enjoy this game and it shows over and over with their decisions.
  • LynxVJ
    138 posts Member
    Options
    Gawejn wrote: »
    They cut the rewards by 70%. After the community called them out, they returned 20%. At the end of the day, they cut our rewards by 50%. And they think they can get away with this.

    Tell the truth - you made up those numbers didn't you? Can you show me some actual math that supports the statement that they cut our rewards by 50%? If you can't show us how you arrived at these numbers then stop using them. It's simply not true.

    I do think we're getting less now - and I'm not happy about that - but we've got much greater access to a lot of things that we didn't have before AND we have a choice of what rewards we take and when we take them. It's going to take some time to figure out exactly where the new pressure points are and formulate a strategy to work around them.

    In my opinion there are still things that CG needs to do to right the boat - more consistent access to bronzium wire scrap, credits, and ship building materials for instance - but throwing out ridiculous numbers just ensures that they'll ignore your post and might actually convince another player who hasn't done their due diligence that you're stating facts, when you aren't. All that does is create noise that makes the conversation more difficult to parse for someone that cares to try.

    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    This is an artifact of retro-fitting the old raid system into the new one. It won't change and if you think about it - it wouldn't matter if it did - your guild can still only earn raid tickets at a fixed maximum rate. If everyone always got 600 tickets a day and your guild is full, at best you would be able to launch it every three days. So instead of getting your rewards an hour after someone cleared the raid, now you get your raid rewards right before the next one starts. Your employer probably does the same thing with your paychecks. There's literally no difference except for that first raid - you have to wait a couple of days for the rewards. After that, you're back on schedule and it never matters again.

    I'm not sure why people are so focused on this - this is literally a non-issue but it's taking up a lot of oxygen in the conversation.

    1. Your guild actulaly completed the raid Monday morning but won't receive payout until Wednesday.
    2. The next GAC round locks Monday night.
    3. That raid currency could be used to get a character from G12 to R3 which makes them and their team now Datacron eligible.

    You're honestly suggesting that's not a big deal? Its new to this raid system and its a step back.
    Your point about the paycheck is actually perfect. You used to be paid every day but now your employer is saying they will pay you once a week. You're honestly suggesting thats not a difference that people should take note of?

    Yes, I'm actually saying that after the first raid it makes absolutely no difference - just like after that first paycheck it makes absolutely no difference. You still get paid exactly the same thing that you would have got paid if you got it the day of - the only difference is waiting a few days. Does it make a difference right now today? In your case, yes, apparently. After next week it means nothing - makes no difference at all. None.
    Gawejn wrote: »

    Yes, i know this post. I asked about base data. I didnt agree with it, so couse of that i did math. From my calculations for mk1 it is 33% nerf. Minimum. If you dont wanna belive me you can do the math. My base data was 30 days, maxed tickets 4 raids rewards so credits, ship credits, mods materials, , guild tokens, gear from pit, haat hstr ( no full gear and only can be obtained for mk1). Cpit data only credits. Place in hstr 8 and cpit 22.
    29k mk1 less per month.
    Mk2 and mk3 comparison is different calculation.
    It was very simple math.

    So you did the math based on above average performance in the raids you mentioned. That immediately skews your numbers to YOUR situation and not the average player. Everyone is getting the same rewards in the new raids so to make an apples to apples comparison you can't use outlier data.

    Did you account for the Mk2 and Mk3 currencies or is your 33% figure only considering Mk1?

    I dont want to convince you. Rewards will convince you, when you will expierience tru some time how fast you are progressing in new mode of currencies.
    I only compared data for mk1. It is answer how much mk1 i need to get the same rewards for mk1 if i do sim on pit haat place 8 in hstr and 22 in cpit. The spreadsheet ( @Ultra ) you mentioned contains data for placing in top10 hstr too. But their calculation is mistaken in my opinion. I did the math and those data are not correct.
    Btw I still need to make calculations for mk2 and mk3.

    In a guild of 50 people, the average placement in hstr is ... 8?
  • Options
    Here is my video take on the new rewards, both pre and post May 10th update if anyone is interested. I used the data from Kidori for currency conversions, which is not yet updated for the May 10th update, but I think it's pretty easy to draw the same conclusions.

    TLDR:
    - Old Raid system Top 20 was ~15.7k crystal equivalent + 3.5k crystals for GET1/2, shards, etc = 19k total
    - Top 10 was obviously better, but we need to consider something more average..and yes the most vocal of us are likely in this Top 10
    - New Raid system pre-update, the 130M Krayt guild score got you 15.1k crystal equivalent. So you lost out only on the GET1/2 etc
    - New Raid system POST Update, the 25M milestone now gets you essentially what the 130M had before, so the breakeven less slight loss in GET 1/2


    25M is a pretty easy threshold for any guild to clear that was already clearing CPIT. The 17M threshold I think is something even a 50M guild can do by all building 1 team. That is WAY better than what it took to clear CPIT (250M).

    The fact you can buy whatever you want whenever you need, this MORE than outweighs that 3.5k crystal equivalent loss of GET1/2, etc in my honest opinion.

    Yes there is still an overall loss, and MAYBE long term we will feel it but I really don't see it with the improved benefits. Plus EVERYONE can enjoy the new raid gameplay.

    Conclusion: Stop freaking out.

    https://youtu.be/-JtxyzmdHOo
  • Wolfcast1e
    526 posts Member
    edited May 2023
    Options
    KDC99X wrote: »
    .... and what the timeline looks like for new raids.
    crzydroid wrote: »

    The other issue I'm seeing is the faction limitation. Most people couldn't care less about Jawas and Tuskens, people want to build toons that are good all across the game. Not toons that are completely useless. Every previous team you built for raids whether it was Cpit or Sith will do well in Conquest, GAC, etc. Jawas are a waste of resources.

    I don't mean to seem like I'm ignoring everything else, because I think the gear will always be the elephant in the room, but this is not necessarily historically different from other new raids. Pao wasn't useful for anything when we were using him for his offense up in phase 3 of Sith raid. And then that team was replaced quickly enough by Nightsisters+Anakin and when MM made me feel like my g12 Pao was no longer a waste, that was welcome. Even Machine Gun Leia in p2 had the issue of Leia having mostly outlived her usefulness in PvP. G11 Tusken Shaman and zSidious to run with Vader in p2 tank also send their regards. Aayla wasn't good outside of using her tenacity lead for your phase 1 AAT Jedi teams either.

    Here, main teams are going to be HC, Maul Mandos, and OR, which are all very useful in other modes. Jawas are putting up decent numbers for a low investment, and already one is required at relics for a GL. Two Tuskens are needed at relics for GLs as well. No, not everyone is going to max out these teams. But it's not like everyone was investing in raid teams before either, especially once the leaders got it on farm. But there were people who did, and there still probably will be some (outside of those who already have Tuskens maxed out to keep up with the TB). For everyone else, hopefully the promised raids rotations don't take unreasonably long and maybe sometimes some people will get lucky with the factions chosen. But my guess would be that outside of the main factions, there will always be some of these teams that people don't want to farm, and yes, some people will farm them for the raid.

    That is a really good question..
  • Eyo
    34 posts Member
    Options
    I struggle to get enough credits - the price is ok, I buy it everytime, but the 500k/1m is laughable and half the time it's not even there.
    Is it just me, or what?
  • MasterSeedy
    5102 posts Member
    Options
    I struggle to get enough credits - the price is ok, I buy it everytime, but the 500k/1m is laughable and half the time it's not even there.
    Is it just me, or what?

    Is the price okay?

    I mean, seriously? Would CG ever allow you to buy gear worth the same number of Mk1 tokens using the amount of credits you could buy with those tokens?

    That's the question.

    Also, the difference between actively hunting for credits to buy vs. passively letting them accumulate is huge. CG doesn't seem to understand that even in a resource management game the fun doesn't come from buying 500k credits every 6 hours to make sure you're keeping up.

    Even if it were the same price, buying 10M once a week or once every 3 weeks or whatever is perfectly fine. There's no need to be so petty as to make your players worry that if they don't buy credits when they're available that they'll be [bleeped] later.

    Personally, I say go back to passive accumulation. Add it to the personal rewards track. Or make the credit heist weekly. Or reduce the price and sell 5M/10M credits at a time instead of 500k/1M.

    I mean, think about it. What in this game can you do for 500k? Anything useful at all? Take one toon from 5* to 6*? Anything else?

    Passive accumulation or meaningful amounts (with reasonable prices where CG would let us buy the gear we're missing out on for the number of credits we're gaining -- a true equivalence) reliably present in the store.

    I mean, just because something is a resource in the game doesn't mean it's fun to track it. Would you want to go back to worrying about training droids? No?

    No one wants to worry about credits either.
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
    Options
    It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if they tweaked the raid currency down just a touch and put credits in there instead. I don't want to deal with that either - hunting down that slot in the 40 pages that is now the guild shipments screen. A alternative is allow us to pin that slot to the top of the list. To be clear, I REALLY LIKE all the options in the guild shipments - but something should be done to make navigation easier. This is why I rarely look at the weekly shipments screen. Ain't nobody got time for that.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Options
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.

    Haven’t read past this point. I think the big problem is we are now accepting a nerf as necessary when it is not. By nerf, I’m using the baseline that any reward earned from krayt should be additive to what that individual was earning from the other raids. By forcing only one raid and changing the rewards that are given just means cg has muddied the waters to not make apple to apple comparisons easy or transparent.

    I accept that raid rewards can’t always be adding but I don’t accept that we had reached the point that cg was giving out too many rewards. I also accept that what assumptions you make on the old raids will greatly change your interpretation of whether this was a nerf or not. To me, this is clearly a nerf to the majority of players. I don’t expect you to accept this.
  • herd_nerfer
    1985 posts Member
    Options
    Drathuk916 wrote: »
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.

    Haven’t read past this point. I think the big problem is we are now accepting a nerf as necessary when it is not. By nerf, I’m using the baseline that any reward earned from krayt should be additive to what that individual was earning from the other raids. By forcing only one raid and changing the rewards that are given just means cg has muddied the waters to not make apple to apple comparisons easy or transparent.

    I accept that raid rewards can’t always be adding but I don’t accept that we had reached the point that cg was giving out too many rewards. I also accept that what assumptions you make on the old raids will greatly change your interpretation of whether this was a nerf or not. To me, this is clearly a nerf to the majority of players. I don’t expect you to accept this.

    I accept that you have your perception of the matter and if you've got your mind made up then so be it.

    The only thing that's become clear to me is that everyone seems to be using a different baseline on which to judge the new rewards and depending on what baseline you use, you can either show that this is "clearly a nerf" or "33% less" or "a 50% nerf" or any number of other things that people have come up with using their own math, data, and gut feelings. There is even data that shows this is about equal to what we were getting, at a certain threshold - but those analyses don't fit the popular narrative so people just dismiss them.

    The fact is this is a drastically different system than what we had before and you're right - CG has gone out of their way to make an apples to apples comparison as difficult as possible so people are bound to come to different conclusions. Because of that this will forever be a point of contention on the forums and something we'll all probably argue about for years to come. I don't like that. I wish CG would just show us their math and what conclusions they came to about the changes so we would at least know how they performed THEIR value conversions. I fully expect that won't happen.

    So far I seem to be the odd person out. From a high level, I think the changes (post-update) are going to be mostly good for me and my guild, all things considered, and I'm content to put down my pitchfork and continue playing the game and having fun with my guild mates trying to min/max my raid teams. It's way more fun that griping about what may or may not be a nerf, depending on who you talk to.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • TVF
    36651 posts Member
    Options
    It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if they tweaked the raid currency down just a touch and put credits in there instead. I don't want to deal with that either - hunting down that slot in the 40 pages that is now the guild shipments screen. A alternative is allow us to pin that slot to the top of the list. To be clear, I REALLY LIKE all the options in the guild shipments - but something should be done to make navigation easier. This is why I rarely look at the weekly shipments screen. Ain't nobody got time for that.

    They said the update will bring a reorg for the store.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Options
    Drathuk916 wrote: »
    I think one of the problems we're seeing here is that everyone is using a different set of data to make their calculations, and plugging in values originating from different baselines. You absolutely can't get an objective picture if you're only using data for your own situation. That may point to a nerf for you but it doesn't speak to what is going on for the average player.

    This could be rectified by CG showing their own calculations, or at least providing us with the relevant data so that we could do the math ourselves. Something tells me that won't be forthcoming. Regardless there are still unquantifiable values that people are not considering - the largest one being the value of choosing your rewards and how that affects roster development. I think everyone is sleeping on that one, but maybe that's just me.

    Haven’t read past this point. I think the big problem is we are now accepting a nerf as necessary when it is not. By nerf, I’m using the baseline that any reward earned from krayt should be additive to what that individual was earning from the other raids. By forcing only one raid and changing the rewards that are given just means cg has muddied the waters to not make apple to apple comparisons easy or transparent.

    I accept that raid rewards can’t always be adding but I don’t accept that we had reached the point that cg was giving out too many rewards. I also accept that what assumptions you make on the old raids will greatly change your interpretation of whether this was a nerf or not. To me, this is clearly a nerf to the majority of players. I don’t expect you to accept this.

    I accept that you have your perception of the matter and if you've got your mind made up then so be it.

    The only thing that's become clear to me is that everyone seems to be using a different baseline on which to judge the new rewards and depending on what baseline you use, you can either show that this is "clearly a nerf" or "33% less" or "a 50% nerf" or any number of other things that people have come up with using their own math, data, and gut feelings. There is even data that shows this is about equal to what we were getting, at a certain threshold - but those analyses don't fit the popular narrative so people just dismiss them.

    The fact is this is a drastically different system than what we had before and you're right - CG has gone out of their way to make an apples to apples comparison as difficult as possible so people are bound to come to different conclusions. Because of that this will forever be a point of contention on the forums and something we'll all probably argue about for years to come. I don't like that. I wish CG would just show us their math and what conclusions they came to about the changes so we would at least know how they performed THEIR value conversions. I fully expect that won't happen.

    So far I seem to be the odd person out. From a high level, I think the changes (post-update) are going to be mostly good for me and my guild, all things considered, and I'm content to put down my pitchfork and continue playing the game and having fun with my guild mates trying to min/max my raid teams. It's way more fun that griping about what may or may not be a nerf, depending on who you talk to.

    We aren’t really in that much of a disagreement. Honestly, I assumed I would receive less rewards because I was always top 10 hstr usually top 4 because my guilds raid times worked for me. I also was top 5 cpit usually 1st. So I assumed hstr and cpit value would be dropped to a sim value.

    I also made the assumption or more accurately hoped that that value of all raids would be first guild box and first personal track. Instead it appears it is 130 million and something easily achievable on the personal track.

    I don’t discount the value of being able to choose my loot but I don’t value it as much as you clearly. I see the trade offs, choice but more things to manage like credits, slicing mats, more kyro farming because the price is ridiculous and the 3200-3600 get2 I’m losing per month. Yes I will adjust. No I don’t think the positives out weigh the negatives for my 457 million guild. I’m not carrying a pitchfork but just saying the meal cg is serving neither looks nor taste very good.
  • Options
    It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if they tweaked the raid currency down just a touch and put credits in there instead. I don't want to deal with that either - hunting down that slot in the 40 pages that is now the guild shipments screen. A alternative is allow us to pin that slot to the top of the list. To be clear, I REALLY LIKE all the options in the guild shipments - but something should be done to make navigation easier. This is why I rarely look at the weekly shipments screen. Ain't nobody got time for that.

    Having looked at the changes to the rewards this does seem to be the only outstanding issue for me, the layout of the guild shipments. It's way too big for a store that refreshes every six hours. Even if they just split it out into guild shipments and raid shipments that would probably help a lot.

    I'm not thrilled about the overall changes to the rewards, but this end result is probably a nerf I can live with. I regularly earned 1st-3rd in HSTR, so if they ended up putting it on sim I know my rewards would have dropped anyway, and if I can accept that if this is to cover Pit sim, HAAT sim, and a putative HSTR sim (which would have related probably to rewards for about 20th in HSTR), then Krayt replacing those simmed rewards and CPit rewards isn't a massive drop in the end for the ability to choose. An disagreeable opinion I'm sure to many, but in the long run having this raid structure is probably more enjoyable than the tedium of CPit.
    Account started June 2020. 100% FTP. 8.2m GP. JMK, JML, SLKR, and SEE. Exe and Levi. Ally code 117-269-921. Swgoh.gg
  • Sloth243
    183 posts Member
    Options
    For my guild, it’s still not worth 3 days for a handful of mk3.
    Glad it works for a larger percentage of guilds, but it’s still a lot worse than what we were getting before the new system.

    Sure, we couldn’t do Crancor, but all the other raids running on top of each other with credits GET, mod upgrade mats, and random gear that was used or scrapped.

    It is what it is. I might not be happy, but it’s not going to get better. I’ll continue the slow grind
  • Options
    People still mad they will see a drop in rewards because they were getting top 5 in HSTR & CPIT every time really need to move on. I think @Notthatguyfrombefore nailed it when you said that they probably took average of 20th place for HSTR & CPIT as "sim" and then worked from here. If you take that placement, based on data that has already been parsed, then we are essentially getting the same rewards now at the 2nd milestone (only 17M) of Krayt.

    Once you start going from there rewards go up and eventually will be on par with these top 10 raid finishes, just now you can buy what you want, when you want.

    Scribe probably has the best take on this on his YT video that I suggest everyone take the time to listen.
  • scuba
    14085 posts Member
    Options
    kukoc2929 wrote: »
    Probably it was addressed but why keep the Sith RAID on for 3 days since we finish it in 20 min ??? with that animations running from one cinematic to another ... i just hope its just a BUG.

    to make it so a player must be in a guild for 5 days to get raid rewards.
  • HK47
    4 posts Member
    Options
    It really feels like CG couldn't handle the fact their game was becoming fun to play after several quality of life updates. All three of the previous raids, which could be run simultaneously, gave a much more diverse rewards that even included completed g10-12 gear pieces on occasion. Being able to select your rewards is nice, but not when the cost is losing GET1, GET2 (RIP JKL, GAS, Malak, etc) GAT, and more. These currencies at the very least need to be added back, even if added to other events.

    I've spent a lot of money on this game (game name Mr. Quacky), but I will not be spending anymore. Everyone I've talked to has a bad taste in their mouth from this raid update. Knowing that the game economy could change and negatively affect how many months my longer grinds take highly discourages me from investing more in this game ive played daily for years. I've already felt the effects, our guild has only received 2 raid rewards since the 4th, and both rewards had little impact. Normally we would have run at least 4-5 in that time....
  • HK47
    4 posts Member
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    I think if they added the lost currencies back to the game, it would be another big step. Did they change the awful mk1,2,3 ui?? they all look the same and are the worst shade of yellow lol the old guild activity tokens looked sooooo much better. theyve made other ui updates that were fine, but this one is just hilariously bad
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