While we appreciate the new raid (content wise)... the game is going to wrong direction

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  • herd_nerfer
    2169 posts Member
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    koWALL wrote: »
    Wrathe wrote: »

    If you're unable/not willing to relic char's for current game content, this is the end of the road for ya. Cause the next one isn't going to take lower relics. Lose the taboo of relics. R5 is today's bottom rung of usability (in a competitive environment). R7 is the new expectation, and R8 and R9 are for the important char's. I certainly wouldn't R9 a bunch for the raid, I R9'd QA/POW/MQGJ for their trio getting max score in the raid, as well as Duels of Fate (it will pay itself off over time), etc. Get Boomadier's Omi and to the requirement level for JarJar (R5), that team (just 4 of them, I don't have JarJar yet) can Auto max their Tier (4).

    You are completely missing my point.

    Last raid was friendly to players on every level. Those with 1 milion and those with 10 million GP could enjoy and help their guild.

    This time is different. I can enter Naboo with 5 star characters but will not score any points.

    I was planning to upgrade all 30 toons but now I can see that I only need one relic team instead.

    This is not F2P or new players friendly.

    Game will die without new players and F2P.

    Just because this is working for you it doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

    You're right - it's not terribly friendly for brand new players - but there are other raids brand new players should be doing. The latest and greatest and most difficult raid is probably not where new players should be starting.

    However, it's perfectly F2P friendly - there are only two characters in the raid list right now that aren't easily obtainable as a F2P player - that's Jarjar and MQG. QA would be difficult if you didn't unlock her from conquest - but that's perfectly doable as F2P.

    It doesn't feel good to invest resources in characters that you don't like - but once you've done it, it's over - you collect your rewards and resume your previously established farming plan. For the next raid it may be wise to start saving some resources ahead of time so you're not struggling to catch up after the raid releases.

    As an aside, I don't think Wrathe missed your point - they gave you a solution, but that solution means spending resources where you don't want to - but that's nearly always the case when new raids come around. FWIW, they're giving you great advice and a sober evaluation of the situation - It's good info and worth digesting.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Wrathe
    216 posts Member
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    koWALL wrote: »
    Wrathe wrote: »

    If you're unable/not willing to relic char's for current game content, this is the end of the road for ya. Cause the next one isn't going to take lower relics. Lose the taboo of relics. R5 is today's bottom rung of usability (in a competitive environment). R7 is the new expectation, and R8 and R9 are for the important char's. I certainly wouldn't R9 a bunch for the raid, I R9'd QA/POW/MQGJ for their trio getting max score in the raid, as well as Duels of Fate (it will pay itself off over time), etc. Get Boomadier's Omi and to the requirement level for JarJar (R5), that team (just 4 of them, I don't have JarJar yet) can Auto max their Tier (4).

    You are completely missing my point.

    Last raid was friendly to players on every level. Those with 1 milion and those with 10 million GP could enjoy and help their guild.

    This time is different. I can enter Naboo with 5 star characters but will not score any points.

    I was planning to upgrade all 30 toons but now I can see that I only need one relic team instead.

    This is not F2P or new players friendly.

    Game will die without new players and F2P.

    Just because this is working for you it doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

    So after 1 raid, you learned that instead of upgrading 30 characters, you can relic 3 is not friendly to f2p? 1 raid, it sounds like you learned quite a bit. You remember HSTR trying to get 3m w/ JTR/R2/BB8/3P0 and Wat (or something hackey like that, it's been too long)? I mean it took tons of runs to have access of where to invest until the good ole SLKR took care of it for us.

    Anyways, I don't understand how you saying relic'ing 1 trio vs 30 char's is not f2p friendly. Can you elaborate?
  • DeusArt
    148 posts Member
    edited July 9
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    Wrathe wrote: »
    Anyways, I don't understand how you saying relic'ing 1 trio vs 30 char's is not f2p friendly. Can you elaborate?
    This is not about how many chars should be reliced or not. This is about low level difficulty that is option in this raid.
    Level 0 with 300k max score is hard. Most of players in my guild receive 0! with full g12 jedies. This is a problem. Nobody asking about million scores. Just give an option that was available for every player in krayt and endor raids. Get low gear team, get 50-100k score per run. Receive 1st personal reward track prize in total and keep moving their way.
    I really don't understand those who is arguing with this. Endgame content? This content became usless after 8 month so why just close it from guilds 150-300M GP level? Why this guilds should be locked at endor raid?
    Wrathe wrote: »
    I don't know what's lower tier to you, but Tier 4 (R5) GR Jedi w/ Lumi lead and Kit on team you can auto for max score.
    Did you know that your GR Jedi w/ Lumi lead and Kit on team will not have bonuses from T4 in T0-2 and this make them worse playable on lower tiers.
    In Krayt raid there was a lot of teams that could reach max 300k score on T0, Jawas, Revan, Olds. Now only Gungans with omicron + rng.
    Post edited by DeusArt on
  • koWALL
    7 posts Member
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    Thank you @DeusArt I could not explain this any better.

    We should aim for balance similar to Speeder Bike where everyone could be part of a team effort.
  • Gawejn
    1162 posts Member
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    gastropoda wrote: »
    The Naboo raid really takes a lot of time, about 10-15 minutes for one battles, 40-50 minutes total if you want to do all the battles, only the Gungan can play automatically if you want get good points.
    Comparing with previous raids we will see:
    - Old mechanism: Rancor - Tank - Sithtrio: 10-15 minutes but only needs one person to do it.
    - New mechanism:
    + Kayt Dragon: 5 minutes per battle, 25- 30 minutes for 5 battles
    + SPD: 2-3 minutes for each play, only takes 20-30 minutes for all 8 tries, can auto all 8 times and still get good points.

    Yes in a guild that didnt push for high rewards you could do everything on auto in in endor raid. Like guilds who didnt care too much. But there was no way to make it in 20 minutes with changing mods. And going for max score or the best you can. 40 minutes was average time for me.
  • Options
    The things is, you dont get penalized for not competing in anything. You can do GAC or can sit it out. You can do the raid, or not. If your guild requires it, find a guild that doesn't. Or be guildless. Sure, you dont gain some rewards, but theres no penalty for doing what you feel you have time to do. Others want to play more. Some want to play less. Its a free game thats pretty cool all things considered.
  • Wrathe
    216 posts Member
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    DeusArt wrote: »
    Wrathe wrote: »
    Anyways, I don't understand how you saying relic'ing 1 trio vs 30 char's is not f2p friendly. Can you elaborate?
    This is not about how many chars should be reliced or not. This is about low level difficulty that is option in this raid.
    Level 0 with 300k max score is hard. Most of players in my guild receive 0! with full g12 jedies. This is a problem. Nobody asking about million scores. Just give an option that was available for every player in krayt and endor raids. Get low gear team, get 50-100k score per run. Receive 1st personal reward track prize in total and keep moving their way.
    I really don't understand those who is arguing with this. Endgame content? This content became usless after 8 month so why just close it from guilds 150-300M GP level? Why this guilds should be locked at endor raid?
    Wrathe wrote: »
    I don't know what's lower tier to you, but Tier 4 (R5) GR Jedi w/ Lumi lead and Kit on team you can auto for max score.
    Did you know that your GR Jedi w/ Lumi lead and Kit on team will not have bonuses from T4 in T0-2 and this make them worse playable on lower tiers.
    In Krayt raid there was a lot of teams that could reach max 300k score on T0, Jawas, Revan, Olds. Now only Gungans with omicron + rng.

    The scores are also relative. 300k in Naboo != 300k in Endor. I put up ~14M in Endor, 7.4M in Naboo, as an example.

    I'm aware at T4 GR Jedi gain CD increase of enemy by 1 when they use a special ability. however, the Hots and Pot Up and the rest of the GR bonuses are available from the start, there's no level requirements there.

    If I put up ~14M in this raid like Endor, that'd be amazingly easy to max crate.
  • DeusArt
    148 posts Member
    edited July 10
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    Wrathe wrote: »
    The scores are also relative. 300k in Naboo != 300k in Endor. I put up ~14M in Endor, 7.4M in Naboo, as an example.

    I'm aware at T4 GR Jedi gain CD increase of enemy by 1 when they use a special ability. however, the Hots and Pot Up and the rest of the GR bonuses are available from the start, there's no level requirements there.

    If I put up ~14M in this raid like Endor, that'd be amazingly easy to max crate.
    Endor has 8 attempts vs Naboo 5 - this is score diff. Not max score from 1 run.
    And nobody speaking about millions score. Those who hit 600k-1.2M in Endor now 0-30k.
    All I'm asking is to make it possible to make any score with g11-12 unit on level 0 (5* requarements) - 50-100k it is enough.
    And this is what CG promised with this new raid system. Because now players score in our guild is looks like this:
    hmj6zg0xv80m.png
    8i65d24cnuqd.png
    z2425nhhimxr.png
    ppkdongded84.png
    np6hb9bdfmbk.png

    All examples are from my guild. And I'm not asking about big scores, 100k per run and 500k in total for 5 g11-12 teams is enough.
  • TargetEadu
    1715 posts Member
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    DeusArt wrote: »
    Wrathe wrote: »
    The scores are also relative. 300k in Naboo != 300k in Endor. I put up ~14M in Endor, 7.4M in Naboo, as an example.

    I'm aware at T4 GR Jedi gain CD increase of enemy by 1 when they use a special ability. however, the Hots and Pot Up and the rest of the GR bonuses are available from the start, there's no level requirements there.

    If I put up ~14M in this raid like Endor, that'd be amazingly easy to max crate.
    Endor has 8 attempts vs Naboo 5 - this is score diff. Not max score from 1 run.
    And nobody speaking about millions score. Those who hit 600k-1.2M in Endor now 0-30k.
    All I'm asking is to make it possible to make any score with g11-12 unit on level 0 (5* requarements) - 50-100k it is enough.
    And this is what CG promised with this new raid system. Because now players score in our guild is looks like this:

    All examples are from my guild. And I'm not asking about big scores, 100k per run and 500k in total for 5 g11-12 teams is enough.

    0he57e221dde.png

    This was my more recent score. Aayla relic certainly helps some, but it’s also without Lumi Zeta and without Mace, and with whatever random mods I had around.
  • DeusArt
    148 posts Member
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    TargetEadu wrote: »
    This was my more recent score. Aayla relic certainly helps some, but it’s also without Lumi Zeta and without Mace, and with whatever random mods I had around.
    Lumi&Kit is currently I'm pushing my guild to have at g12. I hope it helps.
    But to be honest such level Kart's team, Revan's team and Jawas could close Krayt raid t0 at 300k.
  • Options
    I'm from a 461M GP Guild. We've achieved 230-240M on Endor raid. With the new naboo one? 42M. That's 1/5th of that. This is simply ridiculous.
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    I'm from a 461M GP Guild. We've achieved 230-240M on Endor raid. With the new naboo one? 42M. That's 1/5th of that. This is simply ridiculous.

    Were you getting 230 million on Endor in the first two weeks?
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Options
    I'm from a 461M GP Guild. We've achieved 230-240M on Endor raid. With the new naboo one? 42M. That's 1/5th of that. This is simply ridiculous.

    Were you getting 230 million on Endor in the first two weeks?

    We were getting 160m from the second week, which is still 3-4x more
  • herd_nerfer
    2169 posts Member
    edited July 10
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    I'm from a 461M GP Guild. We've achieved 230-240M on Endor raid. With the new naboo one? 42M. That's 1/5th of that. This is simply ridiculous.

    Were you getting 230 million on Endor in the first two weeks?

    We were getting 160m from the second week, which is still 3-4x more

    So that would have been the 144m crate, which was 16.5k MK1, 9.7k Mk2, and 3k Mk3

    And now you're getting the 24m crate, which is 16.5k Mk1, 9.7k Mk2, and 1.5k Mk3

    By comparison, it's clearly not as good in terms of rewards in the first few weeks of the raid - but you only need to hit 130m to get back to the same rewards that you finished with in Endor - that's 2.6m per player, which is trivial with everyone getting max score with a single R8 team.

    Losing rewards feels bad, and I think it's where the majority of the negative sentiment is coming from for most people. But objectively - it's really not difficult to get back to where you were.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • TargetEadu
    1715 posts Member
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    DeusArt wrote: »
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    This was my more recent score. Aayla relic certainly helps some, but it’s also without Lumi Zeta and without Mace, and with whatever random mods I had around.
    Lumi&Kit is currently I'm pushing my guild to have at g12. I hope it helps.
    But to be honest such level Kart's team, Revan's team and Jawas could close Krayt raid t0 at 300k.

    I’ve also seen a better score (282k) at lower gear, using GMY and Mace instead of Aayla and Consular. Plus I assume most people running JKR have Zetas; adding Lumi’s zeta makes setting up the Potency Up + HoT much easier.
  • StarSon
    7571 posts Member
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    By comparison, it's clearly not as good in terms of rewards in the first few weeks of the raid - but you only need to hit 130m to get back to the same rewards that you finished with in Endor - that's 2.6m per player, which is trivial with everyone getting max score with a single R8 team.

    Losing rewards feels bad, and I think it's where the majority of the negative sentiment is coming from for most people. But objectively - it's really not difficult to get back to where you were.

    And this is the issue with the new system. Before, we didn't lose *any* rewards. Each new raid was simply new rewards. Now everyone loses rewards for a while and has to reinvest just to get back to the level you used to be at. #feelsbadman

    Even though the raid turned out better than I expected, I'm still not sure this is a model I want to keep up, and might be on my way out.
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    StarSon wrote: »
    By comparison, it's clearly not as good in terms of rewards in the first few weeks of the raid - but you only need to hit 130m to get back to the same rewards that you finished with in Endor - that's 2.6m per player, which is trivial with everyone getting max score with a single R8 team.

    Losing rewards feels bad, and I think it's where the majority of the negative sentiment is coming from for most people. But objectively - it's really not difficult to get back to where you were.

    And this is the issue with the new system. Before, we didn't lose *any* rewards. Each new raid was simply new rewards. Now everyone loses rewards for a while and has to reinvest just to get back to the level you used to be at. #feelsbadman

    Even though the raid turned out better than I expected, I'm still not sure this is a model I want to keep up, and might be on my way out.

    Yeah, I don't disagree.

    From CG's perspective, they want raids to drive roster investment. From a player perspective, we want our previous investment to continue to pay dividends, as they had in the previous raid system.

    Do you think the two goals are in direct conflict with each other? Clearly they are now, with the system we currently have - but can you think of a way to change the current system to meet both goals without rewards spiraling out of control after a couple of raid cycles?
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Ragnarok_COTF
    1871 posts Member
    edited July 10
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    The old system also came with a new progression level with each raid. HSTR introduced G12+. CPit introduced r8 mats. Sure, your old investments were still paying dividends, but inflation had devalued them. I prefer it this way.
  • crzydroid
    7419 posts Moderator
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    Your old investments also didn't necessarily continue to pay dividends when it came to the old raids being new, except when something else came along. Having a g12 Pao didn't continue to pay dividends when Nightsisters+Anakin came along to solo p3 and a huge chunk of p4. Mon Mothma made that previous investment worth it, but even that team gets left by the wayside a lot these days.

    My g11 Tusken Shaman didn't continue to pay dividends after they allowed Finn lead to expose multiple times so a lower gear Resistance team consistently did way more damage than the Vader team with fewer restarts.

    There are several more examples, and of course all of these teams became trivialized once some new shiny could solo the raid. That solo team was usually desirable for its own sake, too. Again, something may have come along later that made that gear worth it, but it's not like those characters didn't end up just sitting there for a while.

    Now I get what you're saying about having the old raids still on farm and getting that gear. But in part the new rewards structure was meant to compensate for that. I also fully understand that if you're experiencing a dip in rewards with every new raid, that becomes a problem. Hopefully on the whole it evens out. I also get that the new system might seem to unfairly punish smaller guilds until they grow to a point where they can chase something new. There's a lot of discussion there on the ifs and buts--and each new raid is going to have a mix of new and old teams so it will vary each time how much it might benefit smaller guilds.

    I still sort of like the idea that mkIII tokens would rotate between the new raids like how I interpreted the original Krayt announcement. But I don't think they'll do that because it seems like they want new raids to push relic investment.

    But it's not a new thing by any means to have geared up characters for a raid only to have them benched after a few months. The difference here is really the loss of mkIIIs... but as people learn different team combos, we'll see how that plays out.
  • Options
    Can we just go back to krayt raid? It was fun, rewards balanced, etc. last raid was awful gameplay but could auto it. Since everyone complained, CG decides to punish us for complaining by making raid difficulty so high that 7m gp account scoring like 250k total. It's absurd. Top it off with challenges that I can almost never red crate anymore. Every day I think about uninstalling. I've stopped spending entirely. Won't spend $1 anymore. CG literally hates their customers.
  • StarSon
    7571 posts Member
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    crzydroid wrote: »
    Now I get what you're saying about having the old raids still on farm and getting that gear. But in part the new rewards structure was meant to compensate for that. I also fully understand that if you're experiencing a dip in rewards with every new raid, that becomes a problem. Hopefully on the whole it evens out.

    This is my complaint. Don't care that the stuff I geared up for a raid isn't as useful as it was, or that I can't use it in the new raid. But every 6-9 months I take a loss in rewards for a couple months, simply because screw me I guess.

    And no, I don't have a solution. The best idea I've seen is that each new raid the t9 box gives the same mk3 as the previous raid's t10 box. You still get the initial hit, but for less time, and it eventually trickles down to guilds that weren't doing max box. Will this eventually cause mk3 rewards to get out of control? Maybe, but it would take a few years probably.
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    Right - so, what I meant by "previous investment pays dividends" was that once that investment had been made for that level of rewards, it was constant - it never went away and there was never a "reset" of what we were getting for the gear, relics, and characters that we built up for the raid.

    Now there's a reset button every 8 months or so, and in terms of raid rewards, that previous investment is meaningless.

    @StarSon I like that idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down a box with every new raid - and you're right, MK3 would be much more plentiful after a couple of years, but I think they could compensate for that with... whatever's next after R9.

    This wants to be a progression game, but I haven't seen any new progression in a while. Raids are no longer progressive, and R9 has been the end of the road for a while now.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Red5Rey
    15 posts Member
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    I like the idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down, but I would think it would need to drop by more than one otherwise there's not much incentive to jump right in to the new raid
    patiently waiting for my X-wing to be added to the game
  • StarSon
    7571 posts Member
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    Right - so, what I meant by "previous investment pays dividends" was that once that investment had been made for that level of rewards, it was constant - it never went away and there was never a "reset" of what we were getting for the gear, relics, and characters that we built up for the raid.

    Now there's a reset button every 8 months or so, and in terms of raid rewards, that previous investment is meaningless.

    @StarSon I like that idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down a box with every new raid - and you're right, MK3 would be much more plentiful after a couple of years, but I think they could compensate for that with... whatever's next after R9.

    This wants to be a progression game, but I haven't seen any new progression in a while. Raids are no longer progressive, and R9 has been the end of the road for a while now.

    R9 is too expensive to matter for almost anyone anyway. I have seen nothing to indicate this will change any time soon.
    Red5Rey wrote: »
    I like the idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down, but I would think it would need to drop by more than one otherwise there's not much incentive to jump right in to the new raid

    Well, the incentive is any amount of mk3. I think the t3 box gives the same mk1/2 as max box in the previous raid, but also gives some mk3.
  • crzydroid
    7419 posts Moderator
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    Right - so, what I meant by "previous investment pays dividends" was that once that investment had been made for that level of rewards, it was constant - it never went away and there was never a "reset" of what we were getting for the gear, relics, and characters that we built up for the raid.

    Now there's a reset button every 8 months or so, and in terms of raid rewards, that previous investment is meaningless.

    @StarSon I like that idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down a box with every new raid - and you're right, MK3 would be much more plentiful after a couple of years, but I think they could compensate for that with... whatever's next after R9.

    This wants to be a progression game, but I haven't seen any new progression in a while. Raids are no longer progressive, and R9 has been the end of the road for a while now.

    Yeah, I don't know what the solution is. The potential dip seems to be in regards to mkIIIs. People posting old and new boxes seem to be getting the same amount of I&II. So really the issue is a slow down in top end rewards (but not a complete stop). The counterpoint would be that previously the new raid would come with new gear or relic levels with brand new materials of which you started at 0 and had no other locations right away.

    So the discussion seems like it should be whether a slow down in top end rewards only is worth not getting brand new top end rewards and relic levels. But I still think some guilds could improve their initial scores merely by rethinking teams even before more roster development. I know the guild I happened to be in could've gotten another box at least if things had been played optimally.
  • Options
    crzydroid wrote: »
    Right - so, what I meant by "previous investment pays dividends" was that once that investment had been made for that level of rewards, it was constant - it never went away and there was never a "reset" of what we were getting for the gear, relics, and characters that we built up for the raid.

    Now there's a reset button every 8 months or so, and in terms of raid rewards, that previous investment is meaningless.

    @StarSon I like that idea of pulling the MK3 rewards down a box with every new raid - and you're right, MK3 would be much more plentiful after a couple of years, but I think they could compensate for that with... whatever's next after R9.

    This wants to be a progression game, but I haven't seen any new progression in a while. Raids are no longer progressive, and R9 has been the end of the road for a while now.

    Yeah, I don't know what the solution is. The potential dip seems to be in regards to mkIIIs. People posting old and new boxes seem to be getting the same amount of I&II. So really the issue is a slow down in top end rewards (but not a complete stop). The counterpoint would be that previously the new raid would come with new gear or relic levels with brand new materials of which you started at 0 and had no other locations right away.

    So the discussion seems like it should be whether a slow down in top end rewards only is worth not getting brand new top end rewards and relic levels. But I still think some guilds could improve their initial scores merely by rethinking teams even before more roster development. I know the guild I happened to be in could've gotten another box at least if things had been played optimally.

    Oh I agree - People making judgements about the raid right now seem premature in a lot of cases. We saw the same thing with the speeder bike raid. After a little time when they got used to it, lots of people warmed to it - myself included. Once we get a better idea of optimal raid teams and strategies, I think things are going to look very different to a lot of people.
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
  • Options
    Again.... This naboo raid is so bad I don't even wanna touch it I will leave it until the last hour to do my "auto" runs I'm not even interested in the scores I get either, they are long winded, and not enjoyable whatsoever.. what are you doing to us.....
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    Again.... This naboo raid is so bad I don't even wanna touch it I will leave it until the last hour to do my "auto" runs I'm not even interested in the scores I get either

    Your guild mates must be thrilled to hear this
    patiently waiting for my X-wing to be added to the game
  • Options
    I’ve done the new raid and it is very long and boring. VERY! I really hate content like this. The speeder bike was fast at least. The krayt was along and annoying. Maybe a little less of the repetitive 10-20 turns doing the same thing with no progress. Get the enemies low on life. Their turn they heal. Get them low. Their turn they heal. See now this post has become long repetitive and boring.
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    JDawgBravo wrote: »
    I’ve done the new raid and it is very long and boring. VERY! I really hate content like this. The speeder bike was fast at least. The krayt was along and annoying. Maybe a little less of the repetitive 10-20 turns doing the same thing with no progress. Get the enemies low on life. Their turn they heal. Get them low. Their turn they heal. See now this post has become long repetitive and boring.

    You think your post is long and repetitive and boring?

    Hold my beer :smile:
    F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
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