The frustration builds up every day.
Add Mk5 droid callers, the full item as a possible reward in T5 too
T6&7 should have a guaranteed drop, up to 3 of the different fully crafted gear; mk 5 droid caller, mk 5 furnace, mk 6 nubian
IME, they will if they will, they won't if they won't. I do not expect special treatment and while I appreciate the support there's probably no point in repeatedly tagging them.
The guilds are setup to reward people who invested money in game. They do more damage and get more rewards. That was EA/CG's novel idea.
Unfortunately, they didn't see a scenario where all whales formed a group. This means you could have spent 2k on the game and still end up with rank 50 in guild.
I doubt they will change the reward system any time soon.
What this means is that whale guilds will start to disperse and join weaker guilds.
A guild should find a balance between P2P players and F2P players. Its tough for the leader but it is what it is.
There is no incentive for EA/CG to change the system.
Imagine if the raids all awarded equal rewards...this means a lower player at level 22 can join a guild and get the same rewards as a guy who spent 5k on the game...seems unfair.
Its a very difficult situation for EA/CG to figure out the reward system. Equal rewards screws whales and Tiered rewards screws F2P players. Finding a balance is difficult.
Remember if they gave equal rewards to everyone, why would people bother spending more money when they get easy rewards without doing much. They want people to build deep rosters and do more damage to get best rewards. Thats their goal.
IME, they will if they will, they won't if they won't. I do not expect special treatment and while I appreciate the support there's probably no point in repeatedly tagging them.
Appreciate you making these sort of posts to shed light on these types of issues
I think a raid tier should have X amount of treaure chests per raid. Treasure chests are divided up evenly among participants. Guild currency can be based on damage dealt: i.e. The higher contributors get paid more for their job.
This is a solid idea and it is a compromise... what a novel idea! Love this direction.
Also +1 for the OP.
I have never played a game with guilds before, and when they were described to me I was expecting some people I could geek out with and improve with.
Well today someone got kicked out of our guild for going over 24 GW battles. It was posted several times in the chat to not go over 24. Someone did and he got the boot. I am not an officer or the leader so it was not my decision, but this is what is happening. Not the team environment i expected. I love my guild but still, sad it has come to kicking people out over placement for guild coin payout
Yep, we wanted a response, we got one.
BTW, IMHO, if all you want from a raid is to do it in 30 minutes to get rewards and then turn off the game, you aren't a gamer, you're just a grinder.
I want a challenge, not yet ANOTHER ****ing hamster wheel.
Why did this get put here? Oh my lord...FYI the reset time of the raid wouldn't even matter if the raid rewards are equal! Everything can be solved with this. Just do it!
Yep, we wanted a response, we got one.
BTW, IMHO, if all you want from a raid is to do it in 30 minutes to get rewards and then turn off the game, you aren't a gamer, you're just a grinder.
I want a challenge, not yet ANOTHER ****ing hamster wheel.
Looks like they don't care, moving the thread to get it out of view........
CG communication appears to go in waves, and right now we are in a "trough". It's now been half a month since guil...
Thank you for listening.
+1
My suggestion would be to calculate in guild coins , and guild activity score into the DPS to determen what place they are on raid list, this will give the members that countribute to unlocking the raid (if they enter the raid) but dont have the best chars to do max dps, a fair chance to get rewarded fairly for their effort unlocking the raid
to me this is way more fair then the system now ,who is based only on dps and it will encourage members to who know they dont have the best toons to do more to unlock the raid since they know their efforts are rewarded , since it is calculated in to the total raid score
EA's silence on this topic is expected but disheartening nevertheless. Perhaps EA could sell "response packs" of various types.
1 word answer on acknowledgement that the thread exists - 0.99
Evasive "soon" type answer - 1.99
Misdirecting answer that downplays greed - 2.99
The truth - 99.99
So you start a thread, tick off which one you want and the amount is deducted from your account. Spending is fun folks, ask the whales.
Obviously i dont represent EA. i dont want to debate, so i will only say this:
Who knows who moved it here. Maybe it was a dev, you never know. Maybe they prefer it here for easy reference. Thats why this subforum exists. I believe John at one time said he prefers things in these sub groups.
If they wanted to "silence" there are other options. Truth is, the best points were made by OP, some added by others later, but not many. Most are just "well said" posts that add nothing
Dont assume the worst case scenario. You just dont have enough info to assume worse.
Peace. Keep to respectful, i wont add more as I dont want to derail the nice OP. Look forward to more comments, as im sure the devs are too
Well Jesse did create the raid feedback section, and while i agree with the idea that this is where feedback should be, the guys representing EA who respond tend to mainly do so in the general section, hence why people have taken to posting everything in general.
As for this Post Queltar is right, and i can saw from finishing top 10 in 4 T5 raids and 1 T6 raid, the rewards are very underwhelming. we stepped up to a T6 to hopefully get some furnaces, we all need near a dozen or so. and so far none of us got one, so its back to T5 which we can do faster and grind the parts quicker.
in short the rewards are underwhelming, and the fact that some on the forums are talking about spending 900+ gems just refreshing to buy furnaces for gems has shifted alot of this game to a pay to win. Before the precrafting and now the "only real place ot get furnaces is in shipments for gems" this game gave advantages to whales but nothing hard work could not get you (for the most part) now its just silly.
As for the distribution of the raid rewards themselves, i see what the Devs were trying to do, but here is a proposal
Keep the credits and guild currency as it is, its actually on a reasonable scale.
Give everyone a box that has a 50/50 chance of being either TX-01 or TX-02 and give the top 10 a TX-06 box, ie the crappiest extra box you have but its still a small reward for those who did the most.
I know myself if i dont make top 10 ina raid im disappointed, but i also recognize that those who did get the raid done for us, so im ok with a little something extra.
This way everyone gets a good reward and people feel like its less a competition.
P.S. i also feel the need to point out, in many ways this is not a change from the way it is now, it just manages perception and expectations better. we all know that getting a full piece of gear is darn near impossible.
P.P.S can we remove gear obtainable through challenges from the rewards? it sucks getting something that you normally get 40-50 a week of through challenges. we completed out T6 (took us a while) and i got 12 hairdryers, i will get more than that int he daily challenge.....
I cant stand it when the Pig Captain does his poke strike and takes out one of your team (with protection and full health) in one strike!!!!
Also how the Rancor can pick up one of your characters and eat them when they have full protection and health???!!!!
I think they should only be able to do that if you have no protection and below 50% health. Can you imagine and Pig guard or the Rancor killing Vader like this in one shot??? - No Way!
The main problem here is the Devs ony gave the most surface level thought to an incentive structure for actual play and prizes, and focused all their work on the coding. Great graphics, great coding, but the actual incentives matter more.
There are literally infinite ways to set up a group play incentive structure that has positive self reinforcing features, but still encourages competitive play. I have limited time but will share 2 of the many possibilities here
Option 1
Have the group prize layouts decay over time
In this set up, all members of the guild split a set of prizes evenly amongst them, but the pool of prizes gets smaller the longer the guild takes to win the level. This encourages everyone to do as much dmg as quickly as possible to split the largest pot. Groups of Stronger players (read: whales) finish faster and share the largest pot.
Option 2
Prize Tier levels based on competition with other guilds
Games like marvels contest of champions use this structure to great effect. Players have x days to complete as many guild competitions as possible at the highest tier possible to get points. After passing some minumum points threshold, all guilds in top 10% of points get one level of great shared prize, then 11-30 get a lesser prize pack , 31-60% a lesser prize, and 61% and lower the worst prize pack. Again groups of stringer players can complete the most hardest mission for the most points and cooperate to end in the highest prize tier.
In both of the above scenarios the incentives for all guild members are aligned - all members need to do as much dmg as as fast as possible to get the best prizes which drives cooperation (and incidentally spending if they want the best prizes).
There are many many many other ways to set up good incentives like these. It just takes a bit of effort to build a structure that works, and then incorporate that structure into the game code,
The second problem is uneven ness in the points payout from the raid gameplay itself. Why does dmg to the taunting pigs not count, while dmg to the pig leader does count? Why does the door topple exist as a way to do tons of points and then go away in the final phase so only a few players can take advantage? What exactly do these choices do to add to game play in a way than incentivizes all players to do as much dmg as possible as quickly as possible together?
Now, If the prize structure is fixed as discussed above, then these problems wash out as the guilds total aggregate effort is all that matters. But if the prize structure isn't fixed, then these uneven elements only serve to destroy the point of guilds further.
So all in all, priority 1 has to be to fix the prize incentives. Everything else grows out for that.
Edit
One more thing to note - the guild system already has a built in contribution tracking in the form of the coins required to even start a raid. So there is already a system that aligns the players incentives to get a raid going in the first place. No one raids unless we all work together to get the coins to start a raid. This is a perfect example of how properly aligned incentives should be. The problem is that alignment is destroyed after the raid starts. Rather than destroying it, the collective incentive needs to become stronger. And it needs to reward the guilds who do the most dmg in the shortest amount of time. Very straightforward.
@EA_Jesse please read this. Please respond, everyone is concerned.
@Faroer +1 Also to note and the main thing the devs need to be concerned about is that the system is inherently unbalanced. Currently in my guild on a tier v raid only 5 people will get the chance to run the raid twice. The few people who are able to run at it twice are rewarded regardless of the strength of their team.
Regardless of all the counter arguments to join a different guild or be in a guild in the same time zone doesn't change the fact that only a few will be able to run the raid more than once. We are a civil guild and recognize this is a flaw in the system and this won't tear the guild apart.
The dmg based ranking is highly inaccurate to actual contribution as it is not adjusted for the amount attempts that are taken during the raid as well as when the attempts are taken. Its like saying the best baseball hitter is the one who hits only against little leaguers and had twice as many at bats. And then say he's the best player for having the most hits and not look at the batting average.
The main thing is there are flaws in system and they need to be addressed. Doesn't matter how, just needs to be acknowledged and addressed. Especially for the P2W players who can't crack the top of their guild because they don't want to stay up late or set an alarm, they'll lose interest and EA loses money- this is what the devs need to be aware of.
Obviously i dont represent EA. i dont want to debate, so i will only say this:
Who knows who moved it here. Maybe it was a dev, you never know. Maybe they prefer it here for easy reference. Thats why this subforum exists. I believe John at one time said he prefers things in these sub groups.
If they wanted to "silence" there are other options. Truth is, the best points were made by OP, some added by others later, but not many. Most are just "well said" posts that add nothing
Dont assume the worst case scenario. You just dont have enough info to assume worse.
Peace. Keep to respectful, i wont add more as I dont want to derail the nice OP. Look forward to more comments, as im sure the devs are too
@J0K3R k3r In the Forums i have moderated there is a moderation activity log that shows who did what and when. all kinds of cool behind the scenes stuff to play with, so i am sure there are more than a few people who know. including you right?
Only the guild leader should be able to abort a raid. My guild worked hard to get enough points to start a raid that all agreed upon. Then someone comes along and aborts the raid. Everyone in the guild had to wait and build up enough currency again!!! How does something like this happen????
I agree that current raid strategies are not what they should...
Like camping for easiest boss stages (to deal max damage).
Weakest allies never get gear needed to increase their output.
I feel shame when I am in top 3 dps (feels like you are ripping off other guildies).
Replies
Great. Then they can expect no money from me any time soon here.
They make no sense we have hundreds it is just a set back and aggregation to pull these.
But when I do, it's Qeltar's.
Add Mk5 droid callers, the full item as a possible reward in T5 too
T6&7 should have a guaranteed drop, up to 3 of the different fully crafted gear; mk 5 droid caller, mk 5 furnace, mk 6 nubian
@CG_JohnSalera
You guys going to reply to @Qeltar thread?
You guys used to atleast reply to some of the big threads.....even if it was just dodging the questions lol.
Unfortunately, they didn't see a scenario where all whales formed a group. This means you could have spent 2k on the game and still end up with rank 50 in guild.
I doubt they will change the reward system any time soon.
What this means is that whale guilds will start to disperse and join weaker guilds.
A guild should find a balance between P2P players and F2P players. Its tough for the leader but it is what it is.
There is no incentive for EA/CG to change the system.
Imagine if the raids all awarded equal rewards...this means a lower player at level 22 can join a guild and get the same rewards as a guy who spent 5k on the game...seems unfair.
Its a very difficult situation for EA/CG to figure out the reward system. Equal rewards screws whales and Tiered rewards screws F2P players. Finding a balance is difficult.
Remember if they gave equal rewards to everyone, why would people bother spending more money when they get easy rewards without doing much. They want people to build deep rosters and do more damage to get best rewards. Thats their goal.
Appreciate you making these sort of posts to shed light on these types of issues
This is a solid idea and it is a compromise... what a novel idea! Love this direction.
Also +1 for the OP.
I have never played a game with guilds before, and when they were described to me I was expecting some people I could geek out with and improve with.
Well today someone got kicked out of our guild for going over 24 GW battles. It was posted several times in the chat to not go over 24. Someone did and he got the boot. I am not an officer or the leader so it was not my decision, but this is what is happening. Not the team environment i expected. I love my guild but still, sad it has come to kicking people out over placement for guild coin payout
Yep, we wanted a response, we got one.
BTW, IMHO, if all you want from a raid is to do it in 30 minutes to get rewards and then turn off the game, you aren't a gamer, you're just a grinder.
I want a challenge, not yet ANOTHER ****ing hamster wheel.
Looks like they don't care, moving the thread to get it out of view........
+1
My suggestion would be to calculate in guild coins , and guild activity score into the DPS to determen what place they are on raid list, this will give the members that countribute to unlocking the raid (if they enter the raid) but dont have the best chars to do max dps, a fair chance to get rewarded fairly for their effort unlocking the raid
to me this is way more fair then the system now ,who is based only on dps and it will encourage members to who know they dont have the best toons to do more to unlock the raid since they know their efforts are rewarded , since it is calculated in to the total raid score
1 word answer on acknowledgement that the thread exists - 0.99
Evasive "soon" type answer - 1.99
Misdirecting answer that downplays greed - 2.99
The truth - 99.99
So you start a thread, tick off which one you want and the amount is deducted from your account. Spending is fun folks, ask the whales.
Who knows who moved it here. Maybe it was a dev, you never know. Maybe they prefer it here for easy reference. Thats why this subforum exists. I believe John at one time said he prefers things in these sub groups.
If they wanted to "silence" there are other options. Truth is, the best points were made by OP, some added by others later, but not many. Most are just "well said" posts that add nothing
Dont assume the worst case scenario. You just dont have enough info to assume worse.
Peace. Keep to respectful, i wont add more as I dont want to derail the nice OP. Look forward to more comments, as im sure the devs are too
As for this Post Queltar is right, and i can saw from finishing top 10 in 4 T5 raids and 1 T6 raid, the rewards are very underwhelming. we stepped up to a T6 to hopefully get some furnaces, we all need near a dozen or so. and so far none of us got one, so its back to T5 which we can do faster and grind the parts quicker.
in short the rewards are underwhelming, and the fact that some on the forums are talking about spending 900+ gems just refreshing to buy furnaces for gems has shifted alot of this game to a pay to win. Before the precrafting and now the "only real place ot get furnaces is in shipments for gems" this game gave advantages to whales but nothing hard work could not get you (for the most part) now its just silly.
As for the distribution of the raid rewards themselves, i see what the Devs were trying to do, but here is a proposal
Keep the credits and guild currency as it is, its actually on a reasonable scale.
Give everyone a box that has a 50/50 chance of being either TX-01 or TX-02 and give the top 10 a TX-06 box, ie the crappiest extra box you have but its still a small reward for those who did the most.
I know myself if i dont make top 10 ina raid im disappointed, but i also recognize that those who did get the raid done for us, so im ok with a little something extra.
This way everyone gets a good reward and people feel like its less a competition.
P.S. i also feel the need to point out, in many ways this is not a change from the way it is now, it just manages perception and expectations better. we all know that getting a full piece of gear is darn near impossible.
P.P.S can we remove gear obtainable through challenges from the rewards? it sucks getting something that you normally get 40-50 a week of through challenges. we completed out T6 (took us a while) and i got 12 hairdryers, i will get more than that int he daily challenge.....
Also how the Rancor can pick up one of your characters and eat them when they have full protection and health???!!!!
I think they should only be able to do that if you have no protection and below 50% health. Can you imagine and Pig guard or the Rancor killing Vader like this in one shot??? - No Way!
Its ridiculous!
There are literally infinite ways to set up a group play incentive structure that has positive self reinforcing features, but still encourages competitive play. I have limited time but will share 2 of the many possibilities here
Option 1
Have the group prize layouts decay over time
In this set up, all members of the guild split a set of prizes evenly amongst them, but the pool of prizes gets smaller the longer the guild takes to win the level. This encourages everyone to do as much dmg as quickly as possible to split the largest pot. Groups of Stronger players (read: whales) finish faster and share the largest pot.
Option 2
Prize Tier levels based on competition with other guilds
Games like marvels contest of champions use this structure to great effect. Players have x days to complete as many guild competitions as possible at the highest tier possible to get points. After passing some minumum points threshold, all guilds in top 10% of points get one level of great shared prize, then 11-30 get a lesser prize pack , 31-60% a lesser prize, and 61% and lower the worst prize pack. Again groups of stringer players can complete the most hardest mission for the most points and cooperate to end in the highest prize tier.
In both of the above scenarios the incentives for all guild members are aligned - all members need to do as much dmg as as fast as possible to get the best prizes which drives cooperation (and incidentally spending if they want the best prizes).
There are many many many other ways to set up good incentives like these. It just takes a bit of effort to build a structure that works, and then incorporate that structure into the game code,
The second problem is uneven ness in the points payout from the raid gameplay itself. Why does dmg to the taunting pigs not count, while dmg to the pig leader does count? Why does the door topple exist as a way to do tons of points and then go away in the final phase so only a few players can take advantage? What exactly do these choices do to add to game play in a way than incentivizes all players to do as much dmg as possible as quickly as possible together?
Now, If the prize structure is fixed as discussed above, then these problems wash out as the guilds total aggregate effort is all that matters. But if the prize structure isn't fixed, then these uneven elements only serve to destroy the point of guilds further.
So all in all, priority 1 has to be to fix the prize incentives. Everything else grows out for that.
Edit
One more thing to note - the guild system already has a built in contribution tracking in the form of the coins required to even start a raid. So there is already a system that aligns the players incentives to get a raid going in the first place. No one raids unless we all work together to get the coins to start a raid. This is a perfect example of how properly aligned incentives should be. The problem is that alignment is destroyed after the raid starts. Rather than destroying it, the collective incentive needs to become stronger. And it needs to reward the guilds who do the most dmg in the shortest amount of time. Very straightforward.
@EA_Jesse please read this. Please respond, everyone is concerned.
Regardless of all the counter arguments to join a different guild or be in a guild in the same time zone doesn't change the fact that only a few will be able to run the raid more than once. We are a civil guild and recognize this is a flaw in the system and this won't tear the guild apart.
The dmg based ranking is highly inaccurate to actual contribution as it is not adjusted for the amount attempts that are taken during the raid as well as when the attempts are taken. Its like saying the best baseball hitter is the one who hits only against little leaguers and had twice as many at bats. And then say he's the best player for having the most hits and not look at the batting average.
The main thing is there are flaws in system and they need to be addressed. Doesn't matter how, just needs to be acknowledged and addressed. Especially for the P2W players who can't crack the top of their guild because they don't want to stay up late or set an alarm, they'll lose interest and EA loses money- this is what the devs need to be aware of.
@J0K3R k3r In the Forums i have moderated there is a moderation activity log that shows who did what and when. all kinds of cool behind the scenes stuff to play with, so i am sure there are more than a few people who know. including you right?
Like camping for easiest boss stages (to deal max damage).
Weakest allies never get gear needed to increase their output.
I feel shame when I am in top 3 dps (feels like you are ripping off other guildies).