So let's talk about arena and character representation

Prev1345
Powda
525 posts Member
Or... The broken arena meta and what's wrong with the game.

So I compiled a list of all the teams in the Top 30 on my shard who are the usual suspects I've noticed bounce from 30-ish to number 1 by their payout times to help build my case.

Here's what I found:
  • 87% of *ALL* teams (26/30, including an HK-47 lead droid team) used Qui-Gon Jinn.
  • 80% of *ALL* teams had RG
  • 66% of *ALL* teams had Rey
  • 56% (17/30) had a Dodge Lead (Ben / Dooku)
  • 80% (24/30) were Dodge or Phasma Lead

Here's the number that I found the most incriminating:

* Number of teams that include FOUR of the following five characters (QGJ, RG, Rey, STH, Phasma, Ben, Dooku): 73% (22/30) or 83% (25/30) that weren't a droid team.

That means that if you're not facing droids, your odds are a little better than FOUR OUT OF EVERY FIVE teams will be almost identical, save for one or maybe two characters.

I'd love to see other people's results and I think it's time that we provide the numbers to CG so that they're aware of what the game really looks like from the other side of the screen.

Replies

  • Palanthian
    1262 posts Member
    I think the problem is that synergy just isn't enough on its own, so players need mixed faction teams to be successful. For this reason, they need leader abilities that affect the entire squad, not just one particular faction. In which case, there aren't so many options to choose from.

    I'd like to see synergy having a bigger role, encouraging the use of some more obscure teams.
  • I agree Arena is becoming boring... Always the same teams everybody. Speaks really bad about balance in the game. One possible solution is integrate synergies in the passives of each toon belonging to a faction. Example: +2% offense/speed/defense... for each jedi/scoundel/... Similar to the droids. That could help.

    On the other hand. Even in a more balanced game, there will still be better toons than others (even if it's a tiny bit), which would overrepresent those in the arena teams.
  • pac0naut
    3236 posts Member
    I know Rebels are beatable, but they are a PAIN on defense. Working on a team right now.
    Meanwhile, down on the farm....
  • What needs to happen is, sith need a rework ASAP. Since their faction is non existent at the moment, all you have there is count Doodoo. Then mace windu needs a rework, boba too. If you buff more toons into playability that's how it becomes more diverse. At the moment, there's no reason not to use qui gon, or Rey, or Royal guard. All three are the best at what they do, by far. But if there were a couple more toons just as good as them... Maybe it'd be different. I dunno why they move at the speed of turtle when it comes to buffing characters lol.
  • Or you could just check the meta report on swgoh.gg
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Patman6632 wrote: »
    Or you could just check the meta report on swgoh.gg

    I've seen it and used it in the past, but then the argument is skewed because of the type of player that typically goes through the effort of logging into a site like swgoh.gg and having their roster sync'd etc.

    swgoh.gg only looks at the rosters and rank of the members who have chosen to sync up. What I was attempting to proivde was EVERYBODY in the Top 30 on my shard, not just the supposed "elite" who take the time to sync with 3rd party sites.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »
    Patman6632 wrote: »
    Or you could just check the meta report on swgoh.gg

    I've seen it and used it in the past, but then the argument is skewed because of the type of player that typically goes through the effort of logging into a site like swgoh.gg and having their roster sync'd etc.

    swgoh.gg only looks at the rosters and rank of the members who have chosen to sync up. What I was attempting to proivde was EVERYBODY in the Top 30 on my shard, not just the supposed "elite" who take the time to sync with 3rd party sites.

    As well, part of the larger problem is the meta hasn't shifted in 3-4 months. Even the introduction of Jawa Engineer hasn't made much of a dent in the meta because
    • a) droids are terrible on defense. You can rush to the top, only to free fall in defense overnight
    • b) dodge is king. Only droid teams with B2 stand a real chance and CG forcing players to pay $200 US worth of packs to star up a single character is shameful.
  • KelEl85
    158 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Its a problem that just feeds itself because of the lack of viable toons in the game.

    1) I need to beat the opponent DPS toons fast. So i need some real heavy damage myself. Enter Rey/GS/Leia
    2) I need a taunter or two to keep my toons alive long enough to destroy opponent DPS toons. Chewie and others are meh, so its RG, Sthan or both.
    3) I am going to face a taunter. I need a dispeler. QGj is best in the game.
    4) Oh man, people are just going to dispel my han with their QGJ or stun him with their RG. I need a dodge lead to have a chance on defence.
    5) I need DPS so that when i do land some hits against a dodge team they really count...which brings me back to 1)

    Voila! How all of us are forced into the same meta toons. Try to break up the band and it just doesn't work. Minor variations can have success, but if you want to stay competitive you have to follow the above formula (unless you are P2P, in which case Rex, Sun Fac, B2 give you some other options). As more of these toons become F2P or CG reworks some of the current toonsthis may change a bit, but its going to be a long wait
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    So far, literally the only team that allowed me to beat droids with JE+B2 was Old Ben Phasma RG QGJ GS. Rey is risky to use. Droids are the only team in the game where i need to make changes to my original arena team in order for me to beat them in offense. What does that tell you dear sir? You are a numbers fan, but do you also use common logic?
  • 9r33d0
    492 posts Member
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    So far, literally the only team that allowed me to beat droids with JE+B2 was Old Ben Phasma RG QGJ GS. Rey is risky to use. Droids are the only team in the game where i need to make changes to my original arena team in order for me to beat them in offense. What does that tell you dear sir? You are a numbers fan, but do you also use common logic?

    Um, no. If, evasion wasn't in the game, another game mechanic would be in its place. Maybe something less lazy.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.

    Yea of course you don't like talks about that thing, because then you would have to admit JE+B2 combo is OP and you can't have that. The only other leader that works against droids is Rex.

    Has it also occur to you that while people like some of the droids like IG-86 and IG-88, they didn't join this game to play only with characters made out of scraps of metal?
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    KelEl85 wrote: »
    Its a problem that just feeds itself because of the lack of viable toons in the game.

    1) I need to beat the opponent DPS toons fast. So i need some real heavy damage myself. Enter Rey/GS/Leia
    2) I need a taunter or two to keep my toons alive long enough to destroy opponent DPS toons. Chewie and others are meh, so its RG, Sthan or both.
    3) I am going to face a taunter. I need a dispeler. QGj is best in the game.
    4) Oh man, people are just going to dispel my han with their QGJ or stun him with their RG. I need a dodge lead to have a chance on defence.
    5) I need DPS so that when i do land some hits against a dodge team they really count...which brings me back to 1)

    Voila! How all of us are forced into the same meta toons. Try to break up the band and it just doesn't work. Minor variations can have success, but if you want to stay competitive you have to follow the above formula (unless you are P2P, in which case Rex, Sun Fac, B2 give you some other options). As more of these toons become F2P or CG reworks some of the current toonsthis may change a bit, but its going to be a long wait

    Actually, Leia was only on 2 out of the 30 teams (One was a 40K power whale team who could handle her) and I'm guessing it's because she's too much of a liability. She does her damage over multiple attacks which triggers RG and then ruins your day. You need big, hard hitters that can do 10K in one shot to deal with Rey without triggering RG, that's really the thing.
  • Allenb60
    2171 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.

    It only takes one other droid on the Jawa Engineers teem to be able to move before Rey, and considering he is usually on an almost full droid team he can get up to 203 speed, use his recalibrate ability to have his droid allies gain 45% turn meter and critical chance up, and by then droids have taken out one to three characters on the opponents team if they cant dodge
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Alexone wrote: »
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.

    Yea of course you don't like talks about that thing, because then you would have to admit JE+B2 combo is OP and you can't have that. The only other leader that works against droids is Rex.

    Has it also occur to you that while people like some of the droids like IG-86 and IG-88, they didn't join this game to play with only with characters made out of scraps of metal?

    So I can ask you nicely and you don't care? Cool. We're back to that, just in a different thread.

    Where's the numbers? Two out of those 30 teams were HK-47 / JE and neither of them had B2. 26 were Phasma/Dooku/Ben L with some combination of STH, RG, QGJ and Rey behind them. Your whining is garbage and the numbers prove it. Is it that you can't / don't run droids and have problems with them? If so, it looks like you're just about the only one. This thread is about the six or seven characters that are FACTUALLY dominating the arena meta right now.

    If you don't like that CG offered a P2W option for droid teams, you're welcome to start your own thread - instead of just lurking and trolling others - to bring that up with CG. Even with that being said... It doesn't appear to be making as big an impact as you're trying to make it out as. Perhaps we can revisit your concerns when B2 becomes available to the non-P2W.

  • 9r33d0
    492 posts Member
    Leia, will be all over the place very shortly. Right next to Rey.
  • KelEl85
    158 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »
    KelEl85 wrote: »
    Its a problem that just feeds itself because of the lack of viable toons in the game.

    1) I need to beat the opponent DPS toons fast. So i need some real heavy damage myself. Enter Rey/GS/Leia
    2) I need a taunter or two to keep my toons alive long enough to destroy opponent DPS toons. Chewie and others are meh, so its RG, Sthan or both.
    3) I am going to face a taunter. I need a dispeler. QGj is best in the game.
    4) Oh man, people are just going to dispel my han with their QGJ or stun him with their RG. I need a dodge lead to have a chance on defence.
    5) I need DPS so that when i do land some hits against a dodge team they really count...which brings me back to 1)

    Voila! How all of us are forced into the same meta toons. Try to break up the band and it just doesn't work. Minor variations can have success, but if you want to stay competitive you have to follow the above formula (unless you are P2P, in which case Rex, Sun Fac, B2 give you some other options). As more of these toons become F2P or CG reworks some of the current toonsthis may change a bit, but its going to be a long wait

    Actually, Leia was only on 2 out of the 30 teams (One was a 40K power whale team who could handle her) and I'm guessing it's because she's too much of a liability. She does her damage over multiple attacks which triggers RG and then ruins your day. You need big, hard hitters that can do 10K in one shot to deal with Rey without triggering RG, that's really the thing.

    I'd say its more likely that Leia wasn't on many teams because not enough have farmed her yet having only recently become farmable. Some didn't drop everything they were doing and chase her a few weeks ago. And those that did may still not have her leveled and geared properly. I just started my leia. But also i wasn't saying that every team has Rey/GS/Leia, just that those are the 3 best and most common damage dealers for the F2P. Most teams i see are either two SThan/Rg/Rey/GS/QGJ (with a few replacing GS with leia) or Ben/SThan/Rey/QGJ/GS (with a few using Rg instead of han or Leia instead of GS or some other minor variation)

  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Allenb60 wrote: »
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.

    It only takes one other droid on the Jawa Engineers teem to be able to move before Rey, and considering he is usually on an almost full droid team he can get up to 203 speed, use his recalibrate ability to have his droid allies gain 45% turn meter and critical chance up, and by then droids have taken out one to three characters on the opponents team if they cant dodge

    @Allenb60 Again... I'm sharing real numbers on my shard of what the teams are, I'm not theorycrafting about who should go first and what should land and what shouldn't. When JE first started showing promise, there were 6 - 8 players (including myself) that ran droids. All but two of us have gone back to what everyone else is running or they've dropped out of the top 30.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    KelEl85 wrote: »
    Powda wrote: »
    KelEl85 wrote: »
    Its a problem that just feeds itself because of the lack of viable toons in the game.

    1) I need to beat the opponent DPS toons fast. So i need some real heavy damage myself. Enter Rey/GS/Leia
    2) I need a taunter or two to keep my toons alive long enough to destroy opponent DPS toons. Chewie and others are meh, so its RG, Sthan or both.
    3) I am going to face a taunter. I need a dispeler. QGj is best in the game.
    4) Oh man, people are just going to dispel my han with their QGJ or stun him with their RG. I need a dodge lead to have a chance on defence.
    5) I need DPS so that when i do land some hits against a dodge team they really count...which brings me back to 1)

    Voila! How all of us are forced into the same meta toons. Try to break up the band and it just doesn't work. Minor variations can have success, but if you want to stay competitive you have to follow the above formula (unless you are P2P, in which case Rex, Sun Fac, B2 give you some other options). As more of these toons become F2P or CG reworks some of the current toonsthis may change a bit, but its going to be a long wait

    Actually, Leia was only on 2 out of the 30 teams (One was a 40K power whale team who could handle her) and I'm guessing it's because she's too much of a liability. She does her damage over multiple attacks which triggers RG and then ruins your day. You need big, hard hitters that can do 10K in one shot to deal with Rey without triggering RG, that's really the thing.

    I'd say its more likely that Leia wasn't on many teams because not enough have farmed her yet having only recently become farmable. Some didn't drop everything they were doing and chase her a few weeks ago. And those that did may still not have her leveled and geared properly. I just started my leia. But also i wasn't saying that every team has Rey/GS/Leia, just that those are the 3 best and most common damage dealers for the F2P. Most teams i see are either two SThan/Rg/Rey/GS/QGJ (with a few replacing GS with leia) or Ben/SThan/Rey/QGJ/GS (with a few using Rg instead of han or Leia instead of GS or some other minor variation)

    I totally agree, not arguing there. Just saying that Leia doesn't appear to be as big of a rush for people to farm. My guess is that it has to do with her attack being prone to triggering RG as opposed to the big 10K plus hitters that don't. Otherwise, completely agree with you.
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    And if you don't like that you see the same toons in arena bud, play another game. You aren't forced to be here. Nobody wants to see only droids in arena, i prefer it as it is now. So yea...i hope your JE droids get dodged to oblivion forever. And one shotted by Rey.
  • 9r33d0
    492 posts Member
    My shards top 20, is filled with Ben (L), StHan, Phasma, QGJ and Rey. Try fighting that rng drivel 5 to 10 times a day. I CRAVE droid teams as a break from it lol
  • SantasWS
    165 posts Member
    the problem is that rey or leia can one shot almost any one character and them self have excellent damage mitigation via stealth or foresight and high speed. plus buffing the whole team ( i personally refuse to use them in arena ) but to make it more balanced both could do with a little tweak as no amount of new anti dodge toons is going to change it.
    But i guess one of the developers has a serious fetish for them two girl toons.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    SantasWS wrote: »
    the problem is that rey or leia can one shot almost any one character and them self have excellent damage mitigation via stealth or foresight and high speed. plus buffing the whole team ( i personally refuse to use them in arena ) but to make it more balanced both could do with a little tweak as no amount of new anti dodge toons is going to change it.
    But i guess one of the developers has a serious fetish for them two girl toons.

    That sure would explain it. ;)
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    SantasWS wrote: »
    the problem is that rey or leia can one shot almost any one character and them self have excellent damage mitigation via stealth or foresight and high speed. plus buffing the whole team ( i personally refuse to use them in arena ) but to make it more balanced both could do with a little tweak as no amount of new anti dodge toons is going to change it.
    But i guess one of the developers has a serious fetish for them two girl toons.

    Neither Leia or Rey can one shot anybody without some serious buffs on them and flurry critting. Even then, it's only Dooku, Leia and gear 10 QGJ. Nothing else. Of course you were encouraged by Powda who knows as much as i did when i first started the game.
  • Allenb60
    2171 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »
    Allenb60 wrote: »
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    If dodge wouldn't be in the game literally all teams would be Droids + JE. And it's not even close. So thank you dodge for that and only that! Oh and droids kill Rey before she acts...shouldn't someone be complaining about that?

    Hello again, @Alexone . I like that you play Devil's Advocate. It lets me know I'm on the right track.

    This isn't a discussion about Dodge, it's about the broken meta with real numbers to prove it. If Droids were so powerful, they'd be better represented. If Rey were so easy to kill, she wouldn't be on two out of every three teams. People don't build teams to lose.

    I'd prefer you didn't derail the conversation with talk about who kills what, I'm respectfully asking that you don't.

    It only takes one other droid on the Jawa Engineers teem to be able to move before Rey, and considering he is usually on an almost full droid team he can get up to 203 speed, use his recalibrate ability to have his droid allies gain 45% turn meter and critical chance up, and by then droids have taken out one to three characters on the opponents team if they cant dodge

    @Allenb60 Again... I'm sharing real numbers on my shard of what the teams are, I'm not theorycrafting about who should go first and what should land and what shouldn't. When JE first started showing promise, there were 6 - 8 players (including myself) that ran droids. All but two of us have gone back to what everyone else is running or they've dropped out of the top 30.

    I was just saying the Droid teams with the jawa engineer are really strong, before him the droids were too slow to have any chance at top 30, its a good thing they could even show up at that rank at all because a full Jedi team or full Sith team would never make it just because they do so poorly on defense.
    You have to remember that people will want the best team possible on defense and if droids aren't doing good enough people will optimize their team with slightly better characters just for the best results
  • 7AnimalMother
    2053 posts Member
    edited July 2016
    Powda wrote: »

    I'd love to see other people's results and I think it's time that we provide the numbers to CG so that they're aware of what the game really looks like from the other side of the screen.

    Swgoh.gg - go to characters tab, meta report. You can see other people's results :)

    Ooops someone already said it.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »

    I'd love to see other people's results and I think it's time that we provide the numbers to CG so that they're aware of what the game really looks like from the other side of the screen.

    Swgoh.gg - go to characters tab, meta report. You can see other people's results :)

    I mentioned a few posts up, swgoh.gg's meta report tends to get argued away because it's the "elite" that use 3rd party sites for that kind of thing, so you're not getting a skewed representation of teams. I absolutely agree it's a valuable tool and says the exact same thing I'm saying, but mine is real data from my server that has nothing to do with whether someone chose to login and sync with swgoh.gg or not.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Alexone wrote: »
    SantasWS wrote: »
    the problem is that rey or leia can one shot almost any one character and them self have excellent damage mitigation via stealth or foresight and high speed. plus buffing the whole team ( i personally refuse to use them in arena ) but to make it more balanced both could do with a little tweak as no amount of new anti dodge toons is going to change it.
    But i guess one of the developers has a serious fetish for them two girl toons.

    Neither Leia or Rey can one shot anybody without some serious buffs on them and flurry critting. Even then, it's only Dooku, Leia and gear 10 QGJ. Nothing else. Of course you were encouraged by Powda who knows as much as i did when i first started the game.

    How're you coming along with that answer to the stats that started the thread? Still just taking personal shots at people and coming up with statements nothing to back them up?

    Okay.
  • Powda
    525 posts Member
    Allenb60 wrote: »
    I was just saying the Droid teams with the jawa engineer are really strong, before him the droids were too slow to have any chance at top 30, its a good thing they could even show up at that rank at all because a full Jedi team or full Sith team would never make it just because they do so poorly on defense.
    You have to remember that people will want the best team possible on defense and if droids aren't doing good enough people will optimize their team with slightly better characters just for the best results

    I fully understand, and you're furthering my point... But like I said a couple posts up, unless a droid team has paid a couple hundred dollars for a B2, they're not a contender and most people would rather farm the meta and EZ-Mode it with everyone else and the devs are directly responsible for designing it that way.

    It can be proven - and has been - factually, but the devs refuse to acknowledge it. We enough discussion - especially civil discussion - maybe we'll get an explanation or better yet... Change.
  • Alexone
    3646 posts Member
    Powda wrote: »
    Alexone wrote: »
    SantasWS wrote: »
    the problem is that rey or leia can one shot almost any one character and them self have excellent damage mitigation via stealth or foresight and high speed. plus buffing the whole team ( i personally refuse to use them in arena ) but to make it more balanced both could do with a little tweak as no amount of new anti dodge toons is going to change it.
    But i guess one of the developers has a serious fetish for them two girl toons.

    Neither Leia or Rey can one shot anybody without some serious buffs on them and flurry critting. Even then, it's only Dooku, Leia and gear 10 QGJ. Nothing else. Of course you were encouraged by Powda who knows as much as i did when i first started the game.

    How're you coming along with that answer to the stats that started the thread? Still just taking personal shots at people and coming up with statements nothing to back them up?

    Okay.

    Do you have proof that Rey one shots anything else? Perhaps a gear 10 RG she one shots? Seems whoever makes the accusation should also present the proof. Where is yours then?
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