A disturbing pattern has emerged......

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    I agree with the OP. The targeting bug, as well as receiving double or triple arena awards were both issues at launch. As of about a week ago the arena award "bug" was fixed, but targeting is still jumping around like crazy. The ewok, royal guard, clone pack had an issue where it was selling for 3 or 4 dollars. It was corrected before I even had a chance to look at it. You can argue that some issues are easier to correct than others, but the perception to a lot of people is fixes are valued differently depending on which side of the problem you are on.
  • Barrok
    1754 posts Member
    edited January 2016
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    Top_Quark wrote: »
    Barrok wrote: »


    You can't be completely f2p and then complain about everything.

    There is no such thing as talk to the extend of your monetary investment. Please don't do that. Regardless of pay grade we are all on the same plane as an individual player of the playerbase. If being f2p wasn't legitimate, then there shouldn't be f2p games and they'd make it all subscription. I'm not even f2p.

    Yes there is. Absolutely there is. If you are paying nothing, you are getting something for nothing. You are getting a FREE game, regardless of how broken it is. The only thing you are doing is spending your time playing it... but you are doing that on THEIR servers, on THEIR dime.

    Take away anyone who spends money on the game, and the game shuts down (like the thousands of games that this has happened to on the play store).

    I am not saying that F2p can't report bugs, or contribute their opinions to the game, but they have absolutely no right to complain about the direction of development and the decisions they make on what to fix versus what to release.

    If my friend invited me over for dinner, I would not complain about the food. If I was given a free car, I would not complain about it. That doesn't mean I have to be 100% satisfied with what I am given, but I am not going to be so disrespectful to complain about something that I was given to me for free.

    Lastly, I am not trying to say p2p players are better than f2p players. We are both playing the same game. Both are required to have an active and fun game. But, it just irks me when I see so many people who actively say "DO NOT SPEND MONEY ON THIS BROKEN GAME" only to then complain about it, sometimes even more so, than those who have spent hundreds or thousands on this game.

    For me, this constant complaining by people without any financial investment is the "disturbing pattern that is emerging."
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    Barrok wrote: »
    (to the op)

    How much have you paid for this game?

    If it is 0, then you should stop complaining.

    Developer's cost money, application testers cost money. If I was building a mobile game I would put my focus on things that generate money as well or would prohibit individuals from spending money.

    You can't be completely f2p and then complain about everything.

    You bring up an excellent point. Back when I joined the forum and saw the high IAP prices, I wondered why EA didn't charge for the game outright. My thought was at the time, make the IAP much cheaper and charge everyone $10 for the game. AS we can all see, they have over 1 million downloads on Google Play. I'm sure the numbers would be the same if it was a pay-for title, as $10 is affordable to all. I would be a paying customer if I thought the investment of money would improve my gaming experience and I felt the pricing and the content were worth my investment into the game. For what I've received, I would have paid $10 to play, no problem, but definitely not over $100 because there is no monetary returns for such a large investment. Someone was speaking of HODA to me yesterday, I don't play by the way. Anyway, he spoke of how in HODA, teams would spend thousands on that game but they would then be eligible to play in competitions where they could win money and prizes in return. If SWGOH had competitions and cash prizes like that, then sure, you could charge $1000 for things because now the game is similar to spending a day in Atlantic City or Vegas.

    Getting back to your point. If you can't complain when you are F2P, then why offer the game for free then?? The minute you do however, now free or pay players need to be considered equal, that's life. On the opposite end, does the paying customer have more recourse than I do, outside of refunds at the Google Play Store??

    Yet again want to bring this back down to an objective view and the reality.
    You can't just randomly say oh $10 is affordable they'd get the same amount of people to download and play. That's just wrong and made up and statistics don't support it.\

    FREE is free and you can download, play test try and do anything without any issues.

    If you spend $10 up front before even experiencing the product you then would have a right to be upset or ask for a refund etc. Hence why games like this are FREE because they aren't a complete final game with a set cost.

    Even this comment you make doesn't truly come to play...

    "If SWGOH had competitions and cash prizes like that, then sure, you could charge $1000 for things because now the game is similar to spending a day in Atlantic City or Vegas."

    Just because there is an option to win a prize doesn't equal the fact they could "charge more". That is not a logical conclusion at all. The cost of the game should be 100% unequal to the chance for a few to win prizes.

    That would be like Hearthstone increasing the cost of their packs everytime they have a new tourny because someone can win $1,000 $10,000 or $100,000 .....

    Just where is the logic and the thought process looking at this objectively from all sides?

  • Options
    Leapster wrote: »
    I've seen you make a lot of posts on forums relating to things like this.
    You have had some very valid points and discussions in various places but you keep trying to fight this battle of what is "fair" and you miss the entire point.....

    For one some things are easier to fix than others and were explained...
    Vader fix for example they can easily set all 6*/7* to the same level as a 5* which is the highest you can have right now, thus making them all equal until they can dig deeper and pin-point the issues and accounts that abused it.
    -In this scenario though Vader has no true cash value it is acquired over time and playing the game at whatever speed the individual chooses.


    To touch on character bugs specifically it is very hard to tell what might be causing the root problem. Is it her coding specifically, is there a bug in the coding when she "rolls vs another character", it might not be either of those which could be reason why it's taking even longer to resolve it, who knows exactly.

    Also will the fix make the intended use of her work or has the current data shown the players use her differently now and do you want to drastically change that or make a change that fits with her adapted play-style? Lots to consider from a dev standpoint looking at the big picture.

    (I speak on this point because I am a developer for web and software and I see people all the time thinking a fix is "easy or fast" when it could take an estimated 30 hours to fix which might easily double if the initial attempt at solving it doesn't work as planned - this happens all the time. So allocating resources is a tough call when you can be working on something new or from scratch and not get lost in the rabbit hole troubleshooting)

    Would you rather 60 hours spent fixing 1 bug on 1 character or appease the masses crying for updates/content/new heroes - Do you right now want to wait another month or two for all the fixes or do you want new stuff? The forum oddly enough wants more content before bug fixes. So here comes content at the end of the month and hopefully it includes some fixes.


    Your last paragraph doesn't make any sense... this game is FREE comparing it to a paid console or full game is not apples to apples in anyway. Let's break this down further:

    To play a console game you MUST buy the console and the game.
    (You can argue here you paid for your phone but you didn't buy the phone to only play games it is an extra benefit vs the main reason for buying a console is for those games - specifically on that console)
    To play swgoh you MUST download it which is FREE. You CHOOSE to invest money or not if you WANT. There is no NEED or MUST in the factor of spending money on this game. Therefore it does not demand the same weight you are trying to place on a console system/game.

    Furthermore following your logic - The cost of the game is FREE and the support costs EA money to hire and provide.

    To continue with your example... purchasing an app that costs $3.00 should provide $3.00 support because it is the entry cost to obtaining that product. Yet again swgoh is FREE.

    Now how you feel about it is a completely different story but "personal feelings or valuation" doesn't come into play when discussing these things objectively.
    You might feel you NEED to spend to be competitive - but no one is forcing you to take that path
    You might fell you NEED to spend to get those premium heroes - but no one is forcing you to use them
    etc etc we can go on forever.

    EA is very good at setting their pricing and the timing of your progress to entice you to spend to speed things up - It is the main problem with our current generation of gamers and society's desire for instant gratification. You don't want to spend the time to slowly enjoy the game and build it up. You want to rush to the end and be the best without all the work.
    So you either have time or spend money to speed that up. Where the individual then weighs the cost of investing in this game vs anything else - food, shelter, clothing, other games, other entertainment etc

    To sum it all up... EA is a company. It's goal is to PROFIT nothing more. They have built tons of games and tons have died under their control and that will forever be the cycle of apps like this until the PLAYERS change. The current situation we all live in is built from the player-base and how people act - nothing more.

    These companies spend millions on psychology studies and use all that info to maximize profits.
    People got to learn to enjoy the game for themselves and if you can't spend enough on a F2P/P2P type game to win and you need to "win" then you should pick a different style of game to play.

    -I am a paying player, roughly middle of the road. Had some good packs some useless packs. I've hit #1 on my server for arena and cleared GW. Some days I don't make top 10 some days i don't finish GW. But none of that matters except I enjoy opening the app clicking around and when that stops so does my time and money.

    Just know no matter what you invest into a video game you will get nothing tangible back in return. Don't spend if you can't afford it or aren't willing to get nothing from it. It's a risk and everyone knows that going in.

    I understand all that you said above and again, it's an opinion. I speak of certain topics often because I read the forums daily and the topics I speak of are/were mentioned by many others before me so they're relevant topics and I added my 2 cents to it, that's all.

    There are plenty of topics I don't have much to say about like....
    • The modded game and hackers
    • Characters being nerfed
    • Difficulty of levels or the sort
    • Many others I can't think of....
    In short, I don't have many dogs in this race so when you hear me speak of this topic, it's one I believe in...
  • Options
    You could look at it another way. Go to work and give free burnt popcorn and flat warm soda to all the customers and see if you don't get any complaints.
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    You could look at it another way. Go to work and give free burnt popcorn and flat warm soda to all the customers and see if you don't get any complaints.

    Did they pay for it?
  • Leapster
    124 posts Member
    edited January 2016
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    I understand all that you said above and again, it's an opinion. I speak of certain topics often because I read the forums daily and the topics I speak of are/were mentioned by many others before me so they're relevant topics and I added my 2 cents to it, that's all.

    There are plenty of topics I don't have much to say about like....
    • The modded game and hackers
    • Characters being nerfed
    • Difficulty of levels or the sort
    • Many others I can't think of....
    In short, I don't have many dogs in this race so when you hear me speak of this topic, it's one I believe in...

    And I respect and appreciate your passion but it doesn't help to spread misinformation or the wrong thought-process among other users of the forums. I am just trying to put this in perspective from an unbiased but educated perspective. And to make sure we are comparing apples to apples and not just throwing things at the wall hoping they correlate.

    Just because people cry out in mass, doesn't make the masses right. This is a problem in our society today and will continue to be a larger problem in "real life' more so than games in the next few years.
    People have moved from thinking logically to thinking with feelings and those two don't always go together.
    Group think is extremely dangerous and can quickly perpertuate bad ideas and misinformation but the group will band together and support and cheer each other on... all while being incorrect but not realizing it because they "agree" among themselves.
    I forgot the term for this phenomenon but if I can find it and some deeper documentation to explain it, I will edit that in.
    This
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect
    Leads to
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

    and creates much larger problems as a whole.
  • Options
    You could look at it another way. Go to work and give free burnt popcorn and flat warm soda to all the customers and see if you don't get any complaints.

    Still their choice to consume it.
    It's FREE and it's their individual choice to consume the product or not.
    Maybe that person was starving and that burnt popcorn and flat soda was amazing to them...

    Hence why I fight for an objective argument vs personal choices or individual feelings those will always differ between people and their current situation.

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    pay2win wrote: »
    You could look at it another way. Go to work and give free burnt popcorn and flat warm soda to all the customers and see if you don't get any complaints.

    Did they pay for it?

    Did I say free?
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    pay2win wrote: »
    You could look at it another way. Go to work and give free burnt popcorn and flat warm soda to all the customers and see if you don't get any complaints.

    Did they pay for it?

    Did I say free?

    You didn't say it wasn't.
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    I urge you to concentrate verrry hard and re-read the post, looking for the word free. I'll give you a hint, it's in there somewhere.
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    I urge you to concentrate verrry hard and re-read the post, looking for the word free. I'll give you a hint, it's in there somewhere.

    My apologies :D
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    I think you are underestimating the complex web these games form from bottom to top pay grade. "only time" is a huge contribution, an f2p is content for p2p. In this exchange f2p provides them free content which is integral for f2p game model to exist. I spent 2 years in CGs previous game. You wouldn't believe how fast the profits dwindle when the game goes towards a path which makes -flocks- leave. Neither could f2p play the game if there weren't p2p, nor p2p would play it if there weren't f2p. The relation is organic.

    It's noone's right to say who can say what except people that owns this forum and you won't see them making such remarks. While it's a natural reaction to be against the endless whining in the forums, you should respect your peers as individuals.

    Sorry but yet again fighting against assumptions vs logic and data.
    Yes if game population dies then so does profit, but in that scenario that means p2p people are leaving for the profit to decrease.
    A two year span on an app game is actually quite a long time in today's mobile gaming cycle. Most don't make it 6mo to a year in this format. That game could have been experiencing fatigue and they just didn't do enough to revitalize it thus creating the "flocks" to leave. This can also be situational based on your vantage point and it would be hard for any single person to judge the size of the "flock" which could be 10 to 1000s which is relative to your current environment within that eco-system.

    I don't think anyone is disrespecting anyone here, there doesn't seem to be any personal attacks. It is fighting for an objective argument with logic, facts, stats and reasoning that doesn't stem from emotions or feelings of what is fair or right.

    The relationship you describe isn't exactly "organic" I feel that is a misuse of that term. However there are correlations between the paying population and the non-paying population and to some extent you need both. However people who invest a lot of time or money (tangible asset) tend to stick around longer to get their "monies" worth or because they feel they invested so much already it would all be a loss if they stopped. Yet again though this plays off "feelings" and is not an objective look at why people chose to stay or leave.
  • Options
    I didn't say you are disrespecting anyone, relax.

    I'm very relaxed. lol
    But also I am not f2p... I am a P2P person on one acct and F2P on another.
    I'm just saying "you are f2p, so talk depending on the size of your wallet" is not a good path to go about it. It fuels an f2p vs p2p war that doesn't have to be there in the first place. These handles become meaningful in discussions of content accesibility and how that relates to gameplay.
    This is exactly my point. It isn't about who paid or how much. My entire point is to discuss this objectively.
    You repeating that back to me seems like you missed the point of multiple posts I have made above....
    In the two year period, there were lots of elements in play that had differing impacts. I was in a clan of 100 who had people across the scale upto the most famed whale of the game. I've listened to each person's justifications and level of enjoyment in relation to events day in day out in chat. Not going into boring particulars, some of these break points were where the population has seen sudden decreases. Now the game is at the point where somewhere across 20k active players are -holding the line-. Ever aggravating f2p this, p2p that discussions were always poison. SW currently is gargantuan in comparison.

    I desire to see a different culture propagate in this game even if the effort is in vain.
    No offense but you aren't actually saying anything here but talking in very generic terms about some game that I haven't played so can't understand the in-depth things you experienced during your two years. Without exact or precise examples all of this is guess-work and still based on feelings or perception which will differ from true stats.... any game that loses a chunk of its population will suffer but what does that mean in relation to the context of our current conversation and topic on hand?

    This isn't a f2p vs p2p discussion either this is about being objective no matter if you are f2p or p2p... I think you missed the point entirely.



  • Barrok
    1754 posts Member
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    I would never argue that both f2p and p2p are not valuable. Both parties are a necessity to keep the game alive.

    My only point is that ionioncat is someone who has argued against spending money on this game for as long as I have seen him/her but he/she is also one of the most outspoken people fighting for changes in the game to suit his needs. He hasn't thrown any money into the pot, so it frustrates me when he feels he should have so much pull on what is fixed.

    I am not saying CG should fix things solely based on money. This isn't about CG as much as it is individuals thinking they deserve something that they really don't. (Flip side is, just because you spent a load of money doesn't mean CG should fix anything for you either).

    So, end of the day, I just feel that your emotional investment in the game should be tempered if you aren't monetarily invested in the game.
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    What frustrates me about this discussion is speaking for others and especially for the employees trying their best. Same at work, if I tell people they have to wait a week because they didnt pay their bills and the bank seized the money on their account, they go on a rant because they believe they have the right for it to be fixed in a day. Society these days... It's ok to express concerns but not based on loose assumptions . Also a lot is based on "assumptions" and wrong information. Comparison about a gf of a friend being not nice for that friend? I don't see EA or CG as my lifepartner tyvm. Not the best comparison, apples and oranges.

    The AI bug being a problem? If you use AI in arena or gw you are doing it less effective imo (not wrong tho). AI will never force blast to ability block a healer when you auto target and nuke someone else. Not saying it's not legit but the only time I autobattle is during events or single player stuff. In Arena I might use it if there is 1 enemy left. Even if they "fix" it, it will never be smarter than me and I hope this goes for you too @ioniancat21 You are right to adress this but it must have the lowest prio for sure (assumption on my side:))
    439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
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    Many have touched upon something that does bother me. It would seem EA/CG fix issues that concern income immediately yet seem to almost not care if the issue only affects a users play, regardless of lost time or money on the player's end.

    As an example, the auto-targeting issue is a pretty bad problem that makes playing very difficult and this should have been addressed already weeks ago. There are plenty of other issues with characters like Asajj who have functions that do not work properly and yet we wait so long to see fixes on these issues, if ever.

    On the flipside, when the Darth Vader shard issue occurred, that hole was patched immediately so it would seem the priority level in regards to fixing things kind of goes like this....

    If the error involves an item(s) that have a cash value to EA/CG, it's fixed immediately.
    If the error involves the player and no income is lost by EA/CG, it gets fixed whenever, no big deal

    Adding insult to injury, this isn't some cheapo Playstation or Xbox game here, the support for the product should reflect the cost to players. Just to clarify, I could probably buy an Xbox 360 and a PlayStation 4 for cheaper than it would cost to get Lando or Leia to 7*, does anyone seem to see the insanity??? If this were a $3 app from the Play Store and I had an issue and it didn't get fixed for a few months, it's a $3 app, no big deal. Players of this game who lightly purchase IAP can spend over $100 for practically nothing of use, more than any console game out there that you can own.

    For this level of cost, the support should match, that's all I'm saying......

    Awesome post!
  • Camalus
    217 posts Member
    edited January 2016
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    Krix wrote: »
    This game's mechanics is just pure profit for the dev's. If you can't understand that, then good luck on life. Your all out of luck. Profits before satisfaction. EA's 1ST RULE
    Exactly. You really think that spending thousands on a phone game is not crazy, then you are crazy.
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    The only way to really enjoy this game is to be strong willed. This game can be a trap if you can't exert control. This game and most mobile games can become blood sucking money pits. Trying to unlock shards reminds me of the people at casinos trying to win at the slot machine. You know who wins? The house wins and in this case it's EA and Disney.

    @ioniancat21 , I understand your reasoning for creating this post. What we should be doing is demanding lower prices
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    And I think Mercedes, Apple, Levi jeans, Replay brand and playstations should be lower priced so I can buy them all.
    lesson 1 in economics, question and demand (market research). Demanding lower prices for real?
    439-259-888 I have a bad habit of editing my typo's after posting
  • Kevz57
    118 posts Member
    edited January 2016
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    Thank you for addressing the Asajj issue , I was kind of bummed out because I thought I misunderstood her move set and wasted resources on her. Her ability to remove buff is really important and would make her a more versatile character.
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    Exactly for real. These prices are designed with fools in mind. You don't have a business without paying customers. They'd do much better to lower prices and go for higher volume
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    CronozNL wrote: »
    And I think Mercedes, Apple, Levi jeans, Replay brand and playstations should be lower priced so I can buy them all.
    lesson 1 in economics, question and demand (market research). Demanding lower prices for real?

    Lesson 1 in economics is Scarcity, there will never be enough for everyone, I don't even fully know what you wrote(supply and demand?) but I highly doubt you have ever taken economics
  • pay2win
    624 posts Member
    edited January 2016
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    Exactly for real. These prices are designed with fools in mind. You don't have a business without paying customers. They'd do much better to lower prices and go for higher volume

    Fools with a lot of money. ;)
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    @pay2win , fools non the less.
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    How about just releasing a more polished game? Have you guys played Vainglory? The game is free, there is no advantage for buying IAPs, it's all server-side yet supports real-time combat, and it's quite polished. They do have bugs, but they communicate well about them, patch critical ones quickly, and test their product sufficiently so there aren't too many.

    Is EA/CG unable to do this? Or are their business interests just different? Why do we settle for subpar products, and pay more money for them? Why am I even here??
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    Never played it. You're questions are all valid and I doubt anyone will have any good answers for you.
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    Sock accounts now? I don't want to play that rubbish game.(vainglory)
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    pay2win wrote: »
    Sock accounts now? I don't want to play that rubbish game.(vainglory)

    Well, replace Vainglory with any other game that's better run and better done. It was just an example I thought was popular.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
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    Another way to look at it:

    Bugs that can be fixed on the server end or through pushing a hotfix to the client can be fixed relatively quickly (exact timeframe depends on the amount of coding and testing needed, but is often a week or less and can even be same-day in an emergency). Bugs that require an actual client update (in other words, you have to download a new version of the app from Play/iTunes) are never fast, because they can't just post an updated app to the App Stores on the fly. It can take weeks or even months to get an app update certified by both Apple and Google, not counting the time it takes to do the actual development and internal testing in the first place.

    There you go, with common sense and other overrated stuff.
This discussion has been closed.