Isn't "Lets Buff all the Bad Toons, Not Nerf ___" Flawed?

MrGrips

I used to be a big fan of wanting to buff all the bad toons instead of nerfing overused characters *cough*REY*cough*, but Ive been thinking something lately.

Isnt that dumb? Isnt it really the same thing? Like imagine if the devs gave most characters +10% HP except for Rey. Cmon, thats essentially a Rey Nerf. If you guys arent against a Rey nerf, how do you distinguish buffing literally most characters from just nerfing her?

Think about it. Its literally a nerf-herdin HUGE list of characters in need of relevancy. Ill list some out, but there are so many, Id have to abbreviate all the names. MW,BF,ME,CUP,PK,JC,IG100,JKG,T,NA,NI,G,GenG,CB,NG,DS,Ugnaught,L,HRSoldier,GV,MT,ST,FOO,FOST,Poe, Poggle, KF, TR,TS, Ururrrr, RP,RT, F, DM

Theres probably some Im forgetting. There's no reason not to have all characters be relevant, not counting the really forced forced synergy events that arent rewarding or fun enough to make you want many of those chars.

This brings me to my next point. You know how fast the devs do character reworks, and how buggy they often come out as. Do the people saying "Buff all the bad characters instead of nerfing ___" realize that it just simply will never happen fast enough to make her average? It would literally take years at the rate the devs go at it.

And lastly I want to say thats its not about balance even. I use Rey, I do well in arena. Its that she has the most boring mechanics/look in the entire game and you know what? I want to do well in arena while having some freedom in my character choices. I want to do well while having a squad I like looking at/have fun with. No, im not saying you can not give a poo about squad composition or synergy, but Id like more options than "some Rey hodgepodge squad (Use GS or LEIA instead if you SUCK)or Droids."

I mean look at pokemon or plenty of other games. There is way more variety in terms of what is viable. Why is that a bad thing? I guess rebels are a thing now. That's sort of a start.

Meeraval_Marnath1

The problem is that people put a lot of time, resources, and even money into building a toon up. A nerf is essentially a bait and switch that replaces a good item with a bad item. This feels terribly unfair to owners and causes some to even quit the game entirely.

A buff, on the other hand, creates only good feelings. Those few who have that toon, feel great. Others who don't have them will gladly build, knowing that they are "buying" something useful.

It's the difference between getting a bonus or a penalty for not having done anything differently either way.

leef

the armor buff is commonly known as the droid/glass cannon nerf. So i guess you are right.

EscapeArtist51

leef wrote: »

the armor buff is commonly known as the droid/glass cannon nerf. So i guess you are right.

This.. I did like that update. Put Rey, droids, and a lot of damage dealers almost into balance.. I feel like it ruined my buddy count doodoo though. He's over here critting for 4K with offense up .

Gaidal_Cain

EscapeArtist51 wrote: »

leef wrote: »

the armor buff is commonly known as the droid/glass cannon nerf. So i guess you are right.

This.. I did like that update. Put Rey, droids, and a lot of damage dealers almost into balance.. I feel like it ruined my buddy count doodoo though. He's over here critting for 4K with offense up .

I don't really use him anymore unless I'm fighting a Jedi team in arena or in GW and need a little dodge love for node 12. Pity, I've been farming him since mid May and almost have him up to 7*.

grotesque_ah

Imo, each char should be supposed to be good in one or more game features.. Raids,gw,arena,etc.. But thats not the case.. Some characters are useless in every single cas..f.e. Mob enforcer. 0 synergy and a really bad kit. Others like rey are super strong in eachcorner of the game.. Without darkside battles for sure. But this isnt fair. Why dont just give a specific strength for each toon? Mod challenges are a step in the right direction.. But there are still missing ns or other toons. Actually they try theyr best to bring each toon in.. But nobody can outclass rey. So she needs to be nerved and also others need a little synergy buff. But if they give rey a synergy with other meta heroes im out for sure.. But how is about a team synergy, like biggs and wedge.. Maybe there will be more. F.e. Han and chewie etc. And the best thing they could do is to give rey a synergy with the most unused toon to make it viable.. Thats the way synergy should balance this game.. Cant await a teamof chewie, han, old ben,luke and r2

ShaolinPunk

Yeah, not all heroes are going to be equal. Just impossible, so buffing all the 'less awesome' heroes would make the 'more awesome' less of 'more'. Eventually, in theory, you're worried about "if everyone is special, no one is special." Me too. Bust as things are now, even if you tried to make stats more equal, there are still heroes who only have say 2 abilities, while others have 4 or 5, so that already means theres degrees of awesome.

Don't worry, some heroes will always be better than others. Gotta catch them all!

scuba

Rey Rey Rey. She is so OP that she is not needed to win nor needed to beat her on the opposing team.

Yes I have her maxed gear, level and star and she has been riding the arena bench for months. Occasionally I will use her in raids and normally on 1st battle of GW. That is it. Her use is o necessary that she gets used that much.

There is no denial that she hits hard. So do many other and more often.

IMO Anakin is bigger threat in arena than Rey and he is actually my first target.

I do not run droids or evasion in arena. Ran evasion before it was the meta and than stopped.

ShaolinPunk

Cheers for branching out scuba. I need to get my droids leveled up, been meaning to for months, but I get so distracted by things.

xanderxman

A nerf to Rey or any other character is not the same as a buff to the bad ones. A buff to the bad ones leaves Rey where she is and creates more useful characters. A nerf to Rey makes her worse and leaves a pile of still bad characters.

Buffing others around her makes more characters useful in more parts of the game. There is more to SWGOH than arena. You just can't tell by reading this forum. Everyone is so focused on arena around here it's like there is no other scenario to consider using a character for. I wouldn't mind running some crazy teams in GW just for fun but the lackluster characters make that not so appealing.

Sinari

Meeraval_Marnath1 wrote: »

The problem is that people put a lot of time, resources, and even money into building a toon up. A nerf is essentially a bait and switch that replaces a good item with a bad item. This feels terribly unfair to owners and causes some to even quit the game entirely.

A buff, on the other hand, creates only good feelings. Those few who have that toon, feel great. Others who don't have them will gladly build, knowing that they are "buying" something useful.

It's the difference between getting a bonus or a penalty for not having done anything differently either way.

This seems like flawed reasoning. Yeah you paid for a game, but if something is truly deemed as unbalanced, then it has to be addressed or it negatively impacts more than just you, but rather the entirety of the product. I've played things like MMO games for years, and nerfs happen. You can't plan or expect everything, and sometimes you have to tug on the reins.

If you don't like that example... I play magic: the gathering as a competitive player. Bans are essentially nerfs. There exists the fact of emergency bans, and those are generally the cards that reach upwards of 200usd apiece. People get angry, then they suck it up and move on, because those cards were damaging a format and creating unrest and dissatisfaction throughput the player base. Those cards had an unhealthy impact on the game as a whole, and the impact it has on your wallet is not the major concern.

No one ever has called Wizards of the Coast out on a bait and switch over bannings. No one called Blizzard out on a bait and switch over nerfing unkillable paladins that could one shot you. This is a hazard of the type of game you are playing in the era of gaming we have arrived in. Before now, you couldn't update Pac-Man and fix developmental oversight. You dealt with it.

Lastly, I would like to add that I am not defending EA's lack of foresight or testing, and I'm also not calling to ban Rey. She folds hard to droids.

I just felt that the witch hunt tactics needed to be addressed and toned down a little for the sake of being reasonable. Nerfs are not a bait and switch, and the idea that it is, is kinda laughable.

Alexone

The 'armor buff' was essentially a Rey flurry of blows nerf. She got hit hard.

EscapeArtist51

Alexone wrote: »

The 'armor buff' was essentially a Rey flurry of blows nerf. She got hit hard.

Lol yeah she did bro. I'm happy. To be honest, my genosian soldier is just as strong now damage wise. The only thing Rey has over him is foresight now. My GS can crit for 20k still, .

ShaolinPunk

And he's f2p (GS)!

MrGrips

Mmm I guess I really didnt notice the armor nerf really hitting Rey yet. Maybe its just my shard? Im still using her and doing well but maybe thats because it hasnt shifted to a tank meta or aoe meta in my shard yet. if its true that the armor buff/glass cannon nerf was that effective then im pretty content about Rey specifically.

tRRRey

Of all the characters you listed only half actually need to be looked at and retuned. Buffing one character doesn't nerf another because it gives you more options to use.
Your example of 10% more health would never happen and is nothing like the changes we've proposed.
Look at Anakin and Ackbar's reworks, they made the character viable in top level arena without pushing down someone else.
Look at Wedge and Biggs' new synergy, even if they become the new meta it's not going to push out other dps characters from arena.

Zooey

No it's not the same. We have to look at long term impact. Every toon has strengths and weaknesses. Good squad compositions will amplify these strengths or patch up weak points. We can't just go around nerfing the strengths of toons or patching in their weaknesses, or we'll end up with a bunch of interchangeable characters that all do pretty much the same thing.

We should instead be looking to buff the strengths of underutilized toons which will allow them to find or create new niches in the meta, expanding the pool of viable squads while still leaving room for counters. That doesn't necessitate reworks, but that seems like the devs strategy of choice, whether its for balance or financial reasons. However, even if it does take years, I'd would rather have them work towards a diverse and unique pool of toons than quickly batch up a bland but balanced meta.

Jabba

Here's a thought make more synergy reworks for all factions. I too am not a fan of nerfing anything . If synergy actually helps all factions we would see a different looking arena for sure.

Griner_01

Zooey wrote: »

No it's not the same. We have to look at long term impact. Every toon has strengths and weaknesses. Good squad compositions will amplify these strengths or patch up weak points. We can't just go around nerfing the strengths of toons or patching in their weaknesses, or we'll end up with a bunch of interchangeable characters that all do pretty much the same thing.

We should instead be looking to buff the strengths of underutilized toons which will allow them to find or create new niches in the meta, expanding the pool of viable squads while still leaving room for counters. That doesn't necessitate reworks, but that seems like the devs strategy of choice, whether its for balance or financial reasons. However, even if it does take years, I'd would rather have them work towards a diverse and unique pool of toons than quickly batch up a bland but balanced meta.

+1 great example

DjangoQuik

I think you've taken calls for 'buffing other characters' a bit too literally. Those calls are not just asking for a straight across the board raise in HP or damage or whatever - each character does actually need looking at individually. Something along the lines of what they originally said about making faster characters weaker and slower characters stronger would have been a step in the right direction if they'd actually even remotely done that!

MrJx3

Power creeping is never good.

Toukai

MrJx3 wrote: »

Power creeping is never good.

@MrJx3
It is also inevitable to every game that has constant content being added