Devs: Hard Caps, Soft Caps and Poe

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Telaan
3454 posts Member
edited January 2016
@CG_AaronNemoyten @CG_JohnSalera

As far as I understand this game has no stat caps. For those not in the know:
- hard cap is the point when a particular stat reaches a set point, anything beyond it provides no additional benefit.
- soft cap is a point when a particular stat reaches a set point, anything beyond it begins to suffer from diminishing returns

I'm curious if the Dev team has had a discussion involving these common mechanics to help offset the current meta of speed and damage being the only really meaningful stats.

Additionally, I'm curious if Poe has come up in any conversations regarding his current imbalance. His current speed has him leading the pack, commonly ahead of Dooku. His taunt lasts two turns, applies expose, and manipulates the opposing teams turn meter, causing further problems. We all know this and he's pretty much become a must have to be competitive.

Not long ago Barris was nerfed to bring her in line with other healers. The exact quote by @EA_Jesse was "While intended to be a viable healer, she is currently outperforming nearly all healers in most situations." This is blatantly the case with Poe. All other tanks are left in the dust. Has there been any internal discussions involving this toon?

Replies

  • Poe is fine. He dies stupid fast... Usually in less than a round.

    People are having issues because they are being pulled out of their formula to handle him.

    I discovered a formula today that destroys Poe (and by default Stormtrooper Han) teams instantly.

    After seeing it work today, I strongly feel I could never assess Poe as OP again.
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Poe is fine. He dies stupid fast... Usually in less than a round.

    People are having issues because they are being pulled out of their formula to handle him.

    I discovered a formula today that destroys Poe (and by default Stormtrooper Han) teams instantly.

    After seeing it work today, I strongly feel I could never assess Poe as OP again.

    I never said he was unbeatable. I've beaten Poe teams as well. That's not what this is about. It's that the current incarnation makes it so that no other tank is needed....period. He significantly outclasses all other tanks by a lot which was the reasoning for the Barris nerf.
  • Telaan wrote: »
    Poe is fine. He dies stupid fast... Usually in less than a round.

    People are having issues because they are being pulled out of their formula to handle him.

    I discovered a formula today that destroys Poe (and by default Stormtrooper Han) teams instantly.

    After seeing it work today, I strongly feel I could never assess Poe as OP again.

    I never said he was unbeatable. I've beaten Poe teams as well. That's not what this is about. It's that the current incarnation makes it so that no other tank is needed....period. He significantly outclasses all other tanks by a lot which was the reasoning for the Barris nerf.

    I agree with this statement.
  • Barrok
    1753 posts Member
    Buff chewie!
  • Darivon
    134 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Telaan wrote: »
    The exact quote by @EA_Jesse was "While intended to be a viable healer, she is currently outperforming nearly all healers in most situations." This is blatantly the case with Poe. All other tanks are left in the dust.
    The difference between Poe and Barriss is: There are NO other Tanks in the game for him to outperform.
    Not that i think the Barriss nerf was justifiable, but you are comparing apples with bananas.
  • Darivon wrote: »
    Telaan wrote: »
    The exact quote by @EA_Jesse was "While intended to be a viable healer, she is currently outperforming nearly all healers in most situations." This is blatantly the case with Poe. All other tanks are left in the dust.
    The difference between Poe and Barriss is: There are NO other Tanks in the game for him to outperform.

    What?
  • Poe is a very plain hero, what make poe look good are the heroes that can one shot others like fotp or ray that poe can protect in time while other tank can't.
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Darivon wrote: »
    Telaan wrote: »
    The exact quote by @EA_Jesse was "While intended to be a viable healer, she is currently outperforming nearly all healers in most situations." This is blatantly the case with Poe. All other tanks are left in the dust.
    The difference between Poe and Barriss is: There are NO other Tanks in the game for him to outperform.

    image_zpsgveg7xvz.jpeg
  • Darivon
    134 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Fitting Meme. Me neither dude.
    The difference is, Barriss was measured against stuff like Lumi / Daka / JC and Ewok Elder = Healers.
    While the competition for Poe looks like Chewie / Boba / Fives / Mace / Finn / FOST / HRS /RG / Jedi Guardian /Mob Enforcer / Ben / Han / Strormtrooper / Teebo and Plo = Tanks.
    5 out of 5 Healers could be considered "working" , more or less = They HEAL. That's what ALL of them do.
    1 out of 17 Tanks could be considered "working". ONE of them, TANKS. Not sure what the other 16 are doing in this game. But at the moment i don't see any of them tanking ANYTHING.
    On top of that, the rest of them are not only NOT tanking, they are literally not even in the game. Or when was the last time you saw one of them ?
    That being said, yes, Poe IS strong. No doubt there dude. He is the ONLY tank that is working atm tho. Outside of Han+Ben/Tarkin combo. But that's TWO slots. For what ONE slot should be doing.
    Means, according to your causal train, what would be the right approach here ?
    1. Nerf Poe, so that he doesn't outperform the other 16 Tanks and becomes as useless as the rest ?
    2. Buff the other 16 Tanks ?
    Your argument posted here refers to Nr 1. Do you really think this would be the right approach ?
    I for one, have no idea what the "right" way would be to handle Poe at the moment.
    This is by no means an attack or something. I actually tend to read the stuff you re posting cause i think you are not a fool. Maybe a little bit stubborn on the on IAP pricing stuff tho ( seriously, just accept and let it go dude ;) ).
    But this one here is a bit short sighted.
    Maybe just sit it out and wait till AT LEAST Level 70 ? To see how things gonna mesh up. Maybe they reduce his speed by one digit like Ewok suggested. Or maybe they will introduce a fast Yoda with purge who's gonna SOLO him AND all the Sith at once. Who knows. Nerfing Poe RIGHT NOW would definitely be the "wrong" approach in my opinion tho.
    I somehow have the feeling Poe won't be what he is now at level 70 anyway. We will see.
    On the other hand: The soft cap on speed idea might be worth considering. Good point!
  • I think what makes poe so ridiculous is the combination of it all. If he only taunted and slowed the eneny turn... ok. If he only taunted and exposed... ok. But to do all 3... too much.

    When I fight poe what happens is Poe taunts, then sid AOE an now my entire team is down 30% health. More if poggle managed a buff before the AoE.

    If they kept his speed, made his taunt last one OR two turns randomly, and got rid of one or the other debuff... I think he'd be balanced just fine.
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    Darivon wrote: »
    Fitting Meme. Me neither dude.
    The difference is, Barriss was measured against stuff like Lumi / Daka / JC and Ewok Elder = Healers.
    While the competition for Poe looks like Chewie / Boba / Fives / Mace / Finn / FOST / HRS /RG / Jedi Guardian /Mob Enforcer / Ben / Han / Strormtrooper / Teebo and Plo = Tanks.
    5 out of 5 Healers could be considered "working" , more or less = They HEAL. That's what ALL of them do.
    1 out of 17 Tanks could be considered "working". ONE of them, TANKS. Not sure what the other 16 are doing in this game. But at the moment i don't see any of them tanking ANYTHING.
    On top of that, the rest of them are not only NOT tanking, they are literally not even in the game. Or when was the last time you saw one of them ?
    That being said, yes, Poe IS strong. No doubt there dude. He is the ONLY tank that is working atm tho. Outside of Han+Ben/Tarkin combo. But that's TWO slots. For what ONE slot should be doing.
    Means, according to your causal train, what would be the right approach here ?
    1. Nerf Poe, so that he doesn't outperform the other 16 Tanks and becomes as useless as the rest ?
    2. Buff the other 16 Tanks ?
    Your argument posted here refers to Nr 1. Do you really think this would be the right approach ?
    I for one, have no idea what the "right" way would be to handle Poe at the moment.
    This is by no means an attack or something. I actually tend to read the stuff you re posting cause i think you are not a fool. Maybe a little bit stubborn on the on IAP pricing stuff tho ( seriously, just accept and let it go dude ;) ).
    But this one here is a bit short sighted.
    Maybe just sit it out and wait till AT LEAST Level 70 ? To see how things gonna mesh up. Maybe they reduce his speed by one digit like Ewok suggested. Or maybe they will introduce a fast Yoda with purge who's gonna SOLO him AND all the Sith at once. Who knows. Nerfing Poe RIGHT NOW would definitely be the "wrong" approach in my opinion tho.
    I somehow have the feeling Poe won't be what he is now at level 70 anyway. We will see.
    On the other hand: The soft cap on speed idea might be worth considering. Good point!

    So you basically agree with me. You recognize that there are numerous other tanks in the game who are all made irrelevant by Poe. I don't care what the Devs do. The argument of nerf vs buff is all about relative power within the game. But I genuinely believe something needs to change.

  • Barrok wrote: »
    Buff chewie!

    Lemme guess....your probably rocking a 7* chewie.
  • Darivon
    134 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Telaan wrote: »
    You recognize that there are numerous other tanks in the game who are all made irrelevant by Poe.
    No, dude. That's not what i said.
    Poe didn't do ANYTHING to all the others tanks. They have never been relevant in the first place. Had nothing to do with Poe. He is good the way he is. He does what he is supposed to do. And actually does that pretty well. He "works".
    I DO agree with you tho.
    Making the other 16 Tanks somewhat relevant would be the "right" thing to do in my opinion. Amongst other potential changes.
    Post edited by Darivon on
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Darivon wrote: »
    Telaan wrote: »
    You recognize that there are numerous other tanks in the game who are all made irrelevant by Poe.
    No, dude. That's not what i said.
    Poe didn't do ANYTHING do all the others tanks. They have never been relevant in the first place. Had nothing to do with Poe. He is good the way he is. He does what he is supposed to do. And actually does that pretty well. He "works".
    I DO agree with you tho.
    Making the other 16 Tanks somewhat relevant would be the "right" thing to do in my opinion. Amongst other potential changes.

    Which partially goes to my first argument about the introduction of stat caps. Other classes of toons are made pretty insignificant simply because damage and speed are out of control. Were those things adjusted there would be more of a role for support outside of healing.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you on other points. But Poe is a problem. In one ability he applies a damage increasing debuff, manipulates the turn meter and taunts. That's ridiculous. Take one of those things away and he comes more in line with where tanks in general should be. I think a rebalance across the board should happen with the tank class.
  • Darivon
    134 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Actually .. to be honest now that i think about it.
    NO, DON'T NERF POE ! Especially not his Speed. Not even by ONE DIGIT!
    Cause when you think about it. The way this game is designed at the moment one might consider Poe something like "The Saving Grace"!
    Reason: The only way you can influence ANYTHING on defense at the moment is .. through TAUNT. Not just taunt tho. To even have A CHANCE to accomplish ANYTHING on defense you need a FAST TAUNT!
    To protect your stuff. That it might have a chance to move and do something before it gets blown up.
    The best/coolest kit, paired with the best stats, and and a taunt on top wouldn't accomplish anything on defense and would actually be as worthless as all the other tanks in the game if it didn't have enough SPEED!
    Cause let's face it, the human player just nukes the biggest threat right away with any of the fast toons out there and THEN some stuff starts doing something. Like taunting. But at that point, who cares ? It's already a 4 vs 5 after the first couple of actions --> looking grim for defense.
    So this game actually NEEDS Poe. BADLY!
    Just look at his speed, it's 143, as pointed out by Ewok, just by ONE digit in the "fastest" pool of potential actions taken. Why ? Why did they do it ? They could have given him 142 or 136?! Or some other random number.
    But NO, they gave him exactly this speed stat. For a reason!
    So that he MIGHT tie for First action! And THUS, give the Ai defense AT LEAST A SHOT at defending against all the (fast) heavy hitters controlled/focus fired by human players.
    ---> Slow Taunt is pointless. Waste of a slot.
    So hopefully they don't touch Poe ! Hear me CG?! DON'T TOUCH POE !
    Do something else. Change some other stuff. Buff the Ai for example. Buff the other 16 Tanks. Or do some other major game changes.
    But als long as the game is in THIS state: DON'T. TOUCH. POE!
    Thank you. And good night.
    Post edited by Darivon on
  • I think he should probably lose one of his abilities, all 3 in one, especially with the speed to go first makes the matches an RNG coin flip of who's Poe goes first wins.

    Perhaps we'll see AoE meta make a comeback to counter this until there's balance again one way or another.?
    Ally Code: 945-699-762
  • Telaan wrote: »

    Other classes of toons are made pretty insignificant simply because damage and speed are out of control. Were those things adjusted there would be more of a role for support outside of healing.
    I think a rebalance across the board should happen with the tank class.
    Yes, agree with you dude.
    They should do these kinda things. Good points.
    But don't touch Poe pls as long as this game is the way it is.
  • Darivon
    134 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    I think he should probably lose one of his abilities, all 3 in one, especially with the speed to go first
    No!
    Funny enough, he NEEDS, EXACTLY those three things. Or better, the AI, needs exactly those 3 things. To even have A CHANCE at defense.
    Poe/Ai needs:
    1. (Fast) Taunt - To influence the match on defense and FORCE the player to target THIS specific toon
    2. Reduce the enemy meter - To give your NON-TARGET-FOCUSING (slower) Characters A CHANCE to move and get their skills off
    3. Expose - To give your NON-TARGET-FOCUSING Characters A CHANCE to actually kill something after all of them have randomly blown all of their skills all over the place and everyone on the opposing team sits there with 25%-35% life and thinks: "Phew. Close one! Now if they would have focused fired i might have actually lost the match. Hehehe."
    If they would have asked me - "what kind of stuff would this game need to increase player experience and give them a shot on defense?" - before Poe was released, i wouldn't even have thought of these 3 concepts packed in one. But now that i see it in action, it's crystal clear:
    THIS GAME IN IT'S CURRENT STATE, NEEDS POE!
    Exactly the way he is!
    Post edited by Darivon on
  • Stop having a cry about POE.
    Most people complain about POE because

    1. They have invested too much into their current toons and don't want to change certain primary lineup for different strats
    2. Poe makes their PVP experience like Hell
    3. They never got him for free and there may be a grudge towards everyone else who got him and is using him successfully, they won't admit it though lol (especially those that got Phasma lol)

    I beat POE all the time. He's fine the way he is.
    I'm actually surprised at how people couldn't see how deadly he would be when levelled up. Everyone was talking about Phasma (which is so overrated) and didn't really acknowledge POE.
    Now all the smart ones who invested in him are getting a really good payout :) and everyone else who focused on Phasma or any other of the new toons are rage-complaining-for-nerf.
    I have a 7*star Poe and a 7* star Chewie and they're great.
    Poe is the ONLY RELEVANT tank. He is great pretty much just for PVP not so much GW.

    Figure it out seriously.
    Hint* Qui-gon and Ventress are good.
    But then again you can't be bothered farming another toon in fear of falling behind so maybe cry for Nerf? Lmao

    Can't beat POE and aren't willing to change strats to defeat him? Cry nerf lol
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    KTroy24 wrote: »
    Stop having a cry about POE.
    Most people complain about POE because

    1. They have invested too much into their current toons and don't want to change certain primary lineup for different strats
    2. Poe makes their PVP experience like Hell
    3. They never got him for free and there may be a grudge towards everyone else who got him and is using him successfully, they won't admit it though lol (especially those that got Phasma lol)

    I beat POE all the time. He's fine the way he is.
    I'm actually surprised at how people couldn't see how deadly he would be when levelled up. Everyone was talking about Phasma (which is so overrated) and didn't really acknowledge POE.
    Now all the smart ones who invested in him are getting a really good payout :) and everyone else who focused on Phasma or any other of the new toons are rage-complaining-for-nerf.
    I have a 7*star Poe and a 7* star Chewie and they're great.
    Poe is the ONLY RELEVANT tank. He is great pretty much just for PVP not so much GW.

    Figure it out seriously.
    Hint* Qui-gon and Ventress are good.
    But then again you can't be bothered farming another toon in fear of falling behind so maybe cry for Nerf? Lmao

    Reading comprehension is your friend. Seriously. It would saved you from typing this nonsense. GG. I did lol at the QGJ part though.
  • PuttinInWork
    81 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Everybody in here who is saying don't nerf poe, he's fine is using him and only winning while using him. When a character becomes a must need on your team, then yes he needs some type of nerf. Before any of you weird kids come and say, your just getting **** by him, false. I'm currently on team instinct and i place in the top 3 everyday. With that said i can easily kill poe, but it becomes dumb when every person has the same setup. Whipit, MeanMuenster, Dempsey. Zakard etc are all using Poe, FOTP, Sidious and IG-88, every single one of them. No creativity at all. I'm not using poe, fotp or ig-88 and i'm 1st. Nerf poe and watch how much people cry then.

    oLCSRXJ.png

    By the way, lobby hacks. Lobby ur a bum
    https://youtube.com/user/MurdaDeadpool/videos Subscribe and follow me here teaminstinct.net/ Home to Team Instinct
  • @Telaan especially when your faded haha
    I couldn't wait till morning to post but he's very beatable.
    Qui-gin removes taunt then gives 50+ offense.
    Wrecks them every time lol
    Can't beat POE and aren't willing to change strats to defeat him? Cry nerf lol
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    KTroy24 wrote: »
    @Telaan especially when your faded haha
    I couldn't wait till morning to post but he's very beatable.
    Qui-gin removes taunt then gives 50+ offense.
    Wrecks them every time lol
    Telaan wrote: »
    I never said he was unbeatable. I've beaten Poe teams as well. That's not what this is about. It's that the current incarnation makes it so that no other tank is needed....period. He significantly outclasses all other tanks by a lot which was the reasoning for the Barris nerf.

    A quote from above. I get that you're tired, but you're derailing the thread with silliness.

    Also advocating for a chromium exclusive, non-farmable, toon is not a strong argument...it's actually downright ridiculous. I'm a p2w player. I've bought numerous toon packs and crystal packs for refills. But the chromium lottery is a scam and few people can or are willing to pay to hopefully.....maybe get the drop they want and level a viable toon this way.
  • I would bet that the majority of the "nerf poe" people don't have him and the "don't nerf him!" Crowd has him and/or is currently farming him.
  • I got him at 3 or 4 stars lvl 50. I face some difficulty when he's on the opposing team but he's no Rambo. Mine's lying useless because my 7 star lvl 61 toons are way out of any semblance of synergy with him. Lots of OP toons when in the right team to single out Poe. Han and Poe seem to be the only two tanks who seem to be doing their job. I'll work on mine as soon as I have a better spread of multiple synergised squads.

    Imo, devs should 1st iron out game play bugs before looking at nerfs and buffs. Get all toons and game mechanics working the way they should before getting their hammers out. Targeting, AOE buffing, crittings, Talia killing herself when she's the last gal standing (I love facing her, lol) and such.

  • Enigmaticien
    384 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    Everybody in here who is saying don't nerf poe, he's fine is using him and only winning while using him. When a character becomes a must need on your team, then yes he needs some type of nerf. Before any of you weird kids come and say, your just getting **** by him, false. I'm currently on team instinct and i place in the top 3 everyday. With that said i can easily kill poe, but it becomes dumb when every person has the same setup. Whipit, MeanMuenster, Dempsey. Zakard etc are all using Poe, FOTP, Sidious and IG-88, every single one of them. No creativity at all. I'm not using poe, fotp or ig-88 and i'm 1st. Nerf poe and watch how much people cry then.

    oLCSRXJ.png

    By the way, lobby hacks. Lobby ur a bum


    Be carefull on What you are saying.
    You said he is à hacker because he has barris offee as lead? Maybe no?
    I Just want to say you that i have barriss offee as Lead, i have a 23k power team And i am rank 1 since on month every day .with no hack, no money spend .
    And all the top 500 on my server is 21k power no less .
    Post edited by Enigmaticien on
  • DknSho
    18 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    **** GUYS
    i dont understand why u guys keep saying need to NERF Poe (if he cant tank the coming attact why we need the tank in the game? )

    Why u guys not saying NERF FOTP ??? (even i have him in 6 start i still want to say HE IS OVERPOWER) TOO MUCH HP TOO MUCH ATK or skill too much powerful

    Because most people have him . thats why not too much people talking about him (no one want to nerf him)

    BALANCE ---- u guys really know this meaning?
  • Nauros
    5429 posts Member
    While we talk about tanks, how about Royal Guard's passive taunt? Is it worth a shot or is it useless? I was thinking that it could be useful, especially along with his turn meter removal on attack, but I would like to hear some opinions first...
  • People say nerf Poe because sure he tanks and yes he exposes...but currently the game is very focused about killing a character super quickly, at times in one attack (I count like qui gon calling in a buddy one attack even though it is two etc). Now when Poe goes first, it means your entire team goes first. That means you can take out sometimes two or even three characters in the first turn, before the enemy even moves, and then they have to deal with a taunt and cannot hit your glass cannons...sure they can remove his taunt (qui gon is the only not super slow person who can do this afaik and he will be dead because why would you not focus qui goin and you don't need a whole team attacking him to kill him) but generally that happens after all of your characters have a turn, and it is super unlikely you will have a full team to attack him with anyway, so basically the Poe team gets another free turn...so two free turns in a game which allows one shots...yeah...its pretty hard to lose that. Feels pretty strong. If he went in the middle of the group it is a bit different, you have options and chances and his team won't all go at once so it spreads out the damage/losses giving you time to fight back before suffering catastrophic losses xD.

    Of course the other option is make this game less focused about one/two shotting people so that the advantage he gives is not so overbearing and you have a chance to respond and waiting two full enemy turns to get past his taunt is not a death sentence (of course stupid ai does not focus and does not usually chose the most optimal targets to kill so yeah you can beat these teams but just imagine if you were controlling a Poe/glass cannon team against yourself...would you ever lose? :D)
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited January 2016
    - Poe = lower his speed a bit so that he is not the first to go. Remove slow/expose and should only taunt for 1 turn
    - Han = increase his hp. A tank that has less hp than an attacker in this high dps meta is just silly
    - Chewie = increase his taunt to 2 turns and add slow/expose

    The above suggestion is calling for a significant nerf to Poe, but he still remains dangerous as he can disrupt/dictate the flow with his fast speed and resist detrimental effects. Han is slower and has no self-heal, but can manipulate turn meter and withstand more punishment with higher hp. Chewie is the slowest, but brings the most powerful taunt with slow and expose.

    The whole point here is each tank should have something unique that justifies using one over the other. Currently, Poe is clearly superior to the other two, making them obsolete and hence, hurting the diversity
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