WhipiT's guide to balance issues.
January 19, 2016 6:52PM
edited January 2016
EDIT: FYI level 80 is already in the game data as it has been since the game launched. They released the levels in brackets so whales wouldn't rush to 80 and dominate everyone. They just released 70 and expect 80 to be released not soon after. Levels 61-80 were already in the design of the game. So 80 is the current endgame as all game data stops there.
Characters (A/B) are level 50 out of a max of 80 levels.
Let's use the 'balanced' characters Dooku & Barris as example. At level 50 they are extremely powerful. There is an uproar on the forums.
Characters (A/B) are level 60 out of a max of 80 levels
Dooku & Barris are a staple in all the top teams. Developers give in to the playerbase and reduce the effectiveness of both characters.
Character (A/B) are level 70 out of a max of 80 levels
Dooku & Barris are not to be found in any of the top teams. They are delegated to PVE and nothing more. Even before they were balanced they would've lost much of there advantage at level 70 as Dooku never hit that hard prebalanced to begin with and Barris didn't hit very hard prebalanced either. They were just extremely powerful in lower brackets.
Character (A/B) are level 80 out of a max of 80 levels
At level 80 noone will use Dooku or Barris. They may have before they were balanced as then maybe they would have been effective enough to yield a spot on a top tier arena team.
So as you can see balancing characters for each bracket instead of there effectiveness at 80 leads to disastrous results. While most of us are used to playing games where the max level is already implemented into the game...this game was launched incompleted. So it created level brackets as the developers scramble to finish the content.
You can't balance a game in level brackets. You can only truly balance the game by judging each characters effectiveness at endgame.
That is not a new concept. MMORPG'S have used this rule of thumb for balance every since multiplayer games began. I think many of you confuse a level bracket as a gauge of characters power. Screaming for balance in a bracket is a wasted breath. You don't think the developers know how badly they messed up by 'balancing' Dooku and Barris because of there power in a certain level bracket? Of course they do!
I'm all for fixing broken skills. But please stop filling the forums with nerf this and nerf that. If you can't see the error in that by the equation above then I don't think you will ever understand how balance works in a multiplayer game. Be patient, let them finish the game..then lets discuss who needs adjusted and who doesn't. Thanks for reading.
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They already had soft launch shards that were at level 60. They ignored the advice from those players.
But now most of us are maxed or close to it. They can assess balance very well, because not much is changing.
I couldn't care less about level 80. They need to fix the game continuously as they update it, or by the time they get to giving us level 80, a large percentage of this game's players will be long gone.
Dude you make zero sense honestly. So you don't care how effective characters are at level 80. You know.. the end level the whole game was designed for? Yah that one! All you care about is how it effects your gameplay today. If it breaks characters at end game so be it. Lol ok dude. Ok.
Another great post WhipiT.
Right lol thank you for the correction! But as far as current game content it stops at 80. I think beyond that would me a major update a long ways down the road. I think 80 will be out with the next update as it's already in the game and that would be a great time to see who needs balancing.
Balance needs to be addressed now. Not at level 80 or level 100.
Are you truly saying you want to go the next 3-6 months with a whichever Poe goes first meta? Like seriously?
Your guides have been helpful in the past but this is not.
Incidentally, everyone assumes that level 80 is the cap, because of how the UI is structured and what has been data-mined. But we're already at level 70, 6 weeks after launch. There is no reason to believe that cap won't be raised again. They have never said that 80 is it and they never plan to go beyond it.
If it's successful we will eventually see level 90, 100 and beyond.
So using your "logic" they .. never balance the game? "End game" is whatever the current cap is. Right now "end game" is level 70. That is what should be balanced.
Oh, and in addition to the bogus assumptions about level 80, what happens with new characters? We should expect to see new characters released often, at least once a month. Every new character, if not properly balanced, can upset the game in a variety of ways, as Poe has proved very nicely.
Should they also never bother to balance the game for new characters? We've already seen what happens when they do not.
So as you like to say, "lol ok dude".
That's not what he said. What is your problem?
The Devs need to keep current mechanics in balance. Level 80, 100, 150, 10000000 aren't here yet. It doesn't matter how altruistic their intentions are to have the game balanced at some future level cap that's not even in game yet. The game needs to be balanced on the road to that point as well. If the current cap is 70, and it's imbalanced, it will drive players away; especially since we can expect it to be months at this current cap.
Increasing level caps are nothing new, MMOs do it all the time. But that doesn't mean that it's ok for the current cap, or anywhere else along the way, to be unbalanced.
The examples you're using are actually somewhat poor ones, so let me at least shine some light on why you're actually the one here that needs to think long term.
Dooku - As it stands, Count Dooku is one of two characters that will hit the round 6 barrier by level 100. The other is Rey. This stands to say that Dooku will be one of the ONLY characters that can effectively guarantee an action before Poe after 80 to 100. This is kind of a big deal right now, given how people are freaking out over Poe acting first.
Dooku is in somewhat of a slump right now, but might see a resurgence in power later on in his lifecycle.
Barriss - Barriss adds Defense Up to the team for two turns with her heal at Rank 8, which to me... is actually pretty awesome. Add this to the fact her base attack heals 45% of the time at Rank 8 (albeit not healing all that much compared to the damage being dealt in the game at the moment, but that's an entirely different topic) and I could actually see Barriss coming back in to the scene later on in the game's lifespan.
So, I guess my point is... you're already considering these characters "dead" for good without even looking at their full potential across the 70 to 100 spectrum. I would try to put more effort in to looking at the "big picture" for these characters, and many others, in the future, before trying to claim others are not.
Balancing for 70 is an absolute necessity. Balance should occur at each tier. The Barriss balancing was out of control and unneeded and solved problems that didn't exist, but that's not what anyone is really asking for here. The two main culprits for complaint - Poe and FOTP - are disruptive in their design and are causing the game to feel stagnant and yucky after not even a full week of a new "content patch." That's not good for a game's livelihood.
Current game content actually does not stop at 80 at all. There are challenges requiring 84 to enter and even skills on characters that require 82, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
Anyway, it's all moot. They will either balance things or they won't. I'm betting they will, because this is an evolving product and it needs to be viable as it evolves, not based on some distance future goalline.
After watching the 70 update unfold exactly as expected with all datamined info falling in to place 100%, I've cast aside all doubts in any stuff we have shown to 100 being altered all that much.
80 is already in the game. It is the current endgame. I expect it to be released with the next update. I'm sorry you didn't dind this post helpful but everything I wrote is a 100% true. I have no problems with fighting Poe. I have a team designed just to counter him. You know why? I spent a lot of money to have a large assortment of toons. Is it fair I have those yet most of the nerf this community does not? Its P2W. This is the nature of the game. It's how they pay there bills my friend.
Want to know what will tank this game faster than balance issues?? Make it perfectly balanced. Then it no longer yields an advantage to spend money...so people quit spending money. If you guys can at least wait till 80 before you start wanting to change characters then we can work together to find an acceptable balance for low spending if F2P. There's a reason no whales are complaining. We have the counter to everything. As it should be.
They clearly treat level increases as a big deal, as shown by this last one, and I do not think they will ever roll a level increase in to a content update. They're being treated separately and will be spaced out by at least a month each for sure.
Uhh... what?
I'm one of the whaliest whales that ever did swim and I certainly don't see a concrete answer to a first turn Poe...
I haven't seen data beyond level 80 on the database sites, but I guess it must be around somewhere.
It's at least 3 months away
The Poe teams are worst with P2P chars like Leia and QGJ, but they can be made into monsters even with F2P stuff.
Also, few teams run Poe as leader, so you don't know he's there or not in Arena.
We got 70 two months after hard launch, so I think a one month until content update, one month after that until 80 seems plausible. April seems so far away...
I just hit 63 today doing refills up to 200 energy every day.The vast majority of the player as is even behind myself. So that means it's at least 2-3 weeks untill most are 70.
I mainly come to his threads to see how condescending he can be. I'm rarely disappointed.
The cycle of increased level caps is a common practice in the industry. It's not a new concept and I have no doubt these Devs know what they're doing. They absolutely know that periods of unbalanced gameplay can/will seriously impact the long term health of the game; and that fine tuning and mechanics changes are an ongoing process.
It's why we'll continue to see balancing along the way.
@Naecabon you can't beat a Poe team? I'll give you a easy setup f2p could even do it....poe/poogle/Ig88/Sid/Boba. Run that combo against ANY Poe team consisting of any variation. You will win 100% of the time. Not sure why people feel poe is so overpowered. Guess he just replaced lolphasma.
This is not some single player game you pay for once and play through start to finish I think...
@Qeltar And I guess your just a SWGOH pro with your little limited squad ..stun team huh? Ok dude. Ok.
Considering the devs didn't know that in galatic war there is a pattern of pre-determined outcomes I wouldn't give them too much credit or faith.
I have tried this team. It works... Only if your Poe goes first lol