Is the Empire truly evil?
Ever since I watched Star Wars for the first time almost 40 years ago (man, time FLIES!), I've been under the impression that the Empire is not as bad as some would have us believe. Of course, it does have its share of rotten eggs like Tarkin or Motti, but does that mean that EVERYONE who serves the Empire is bad? But let's look at some arguments here.
1) The Empire destroyed the peace-loving, democratic Republic
Yeah... no. The Empire replaced a corrupt and inefficient government that hardly even functioned any more and existed solely for the benefit of what we'd call lobbyists. Even something as relatively simple as the Naboo trade dispute proved to be too much for them to handle effectively. But hey, that's not all! The Republic was not able to enforce its own laws in its territory! Look at Tattoine - both Qui-gon Jinn and Padme were aware of the existence of slaves on Tatooine. I have no doubt they both reported it to their respective superiors. What was done about those poor people? Absolutely and completely NOTHING. The whole thing boiled down to "the Republic doesn't exist out here" and that's it. Deal with it.
2) The Empire tried to destroy the peace-loving Rebels!
Right. Except that those Rebels fit the description of today's terrorists. A militant group attempting to overthrow a legitimate government (please remember that the Emperor did not FORCE anyone to grant him executive powers, both the Jedi and the Senate could have stopped him at any time and prevented the creation of the Empire if they'd only followed procedure instead of taking the easy way out) using lethal force and hit-and-run tactics. Sounds familiar?
Also, think about who was actually responsible for the creation of the Rebellion. Not some random folks tired of the "oppression" of the Empire, but former members of the Senate, who could not handle the fact that they lost power, influence and the ability to make millions on the side. The very people who were so incredibly inept before are now the charismatic leaders of the Rebellion, fighting for the well-being of everyone in the galaxy. Seriously?
3) But the Empire destroyed Alderaan!
Yup, that it did. Well, actually Tarkin destroyed Alderaan, we don't really know what the Emperor's reaction to that PR blunder was. But aside from that, look at point 2. Alderaan was the unofficial HQ of the Rebellion, it was the refuge of the entire movement, openly supporting it and providing shelter to its members. Now, if you were given the opportunity of taking out a key terrorist base, along with many of its leaders, supplies and stockpiles, would you take it, knowing there would be collateral damage but that it would limit the potential loss of life in the future? Because that's what Alderaan's destruction was about. Well, that and the actions of a not fully sane individual (Tarkin).
4) But what about all the xenophobia?
Hmm... you mean like the one where the Emperor's most trusted advisors were non-humans? Or the one where a non-human agent had the authority to call in stormtrooper support? Speaking of which, how many non-humans were in that throneroom on Yavin? And where is Chewie's medal? In the EU he got it in a private, behind-the-scenes ceremony later. Gee, almost like the Alliance was reluctant to give him a medal in public...
5) Ok, but the people of the galaxy hated the Empire and were rooting for the Rebellion
Were they? Were they REALLY? How many Rebels were there at Hoth? A thousand? A few thousand? How big was the Rebel fleet at the end of ESB? Or at Endor, where the Emperor said that destroying the Rebel fleet would put an end to the Rebellion? We're talking thousands in a galaxy of millions of worlds! If even one single person from every habitable planet joined the Alliance, they should have waaaaay more people than they did. So maybe they weren't all that popular? Maybe the inhabitants of the galaxy actually preferred the Empire and saw the Alliance as a threat to their way of life?
6) Fine, but you can't deny that the Emperor was evil
Well, yes and no. Yes, he did some deplorable things during his reign (and before), but think about what I wrote before: he witnessed first hand the depravity of the Republic. He knew about the millions suffering as slaves, about the billions dying because the Republic was powerless to prevent any conflicts (I'll get to this in a second). He knew that there was no way of "fixing" the Republic, that it has to be torn down in order to build a better galaxy and he had the courage (and brains) to do it.
7) What about the Jedi? They were the good guys and they opposed him!
Oh, the Jedi were the good guys? Really? That bunch of power-hungry hypocrites? The ones who claimed "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" and then decided that the rank of "general" sounds really neat? Oh, yeah, they're a really good measure of who's good and bad... Tell me this, if they really had the Republic's best interest at heart, why didn't they inform anyone that they were nearly powerless because of one single Sith? Remember what reason Yoda gave? "Multiply our enemies will". Not the Senate's. Not the Republic's. The Jedis'. Had the Republic known earlier, maybe they could've done something... But I digress.
8) But the Empire ruled through fear and intimidation!
Why? Because Tarkin said so? A regime that is hated and feared is not one that people volunteer to be a part of. At least not normal people and not many of them. And yet the Imperial military moved away from clones (who were little more than slaves to the Republic, kindly note that) and relied on a VOLUNTEER armed forces! Biggs was not a conscript, he was a volunteer. Luke was not forced into the Academy, he actually fought his uncle so he could go! That's not what happens in a tyranny that oppresses its people!
9) But clearly they were the bad guys!
Says who? Please remember that history is written by winners. The Rebellion, sadly, won. The result of this we can see in the EU, where the galaxy is left in ruins and countless trillions die in one conflict after another, because the New Republic is just as useless as the old. But that's beside the point. What matters is that the Empire is presented as evil for one reason and one reason only: to legitimize in some way what was an illegal overthrow of a legitimate government in order to restore power to the very people who had it before and used it for personal benefit with little or no regard for the well-being of others and who were removed from office in a legal way. OF COURSE they presented the Empire as the embodiment of all evil, it was the only way they could justify their own crimes.
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Howdy, Stranger!
Replies
The republic isn't perfect, but it's the best humans (and the rest of the galaxy) could come up with.
What balance has he brought other than destruction?
Really? You could use the Jedi as an argument for, say, North Korea?
Yes, I actually wrote that: "The Empire replaced a corrupt and inefficient government that hardly even functioned any more and existed solely for the benefit of what we'd call lobbyists.". But the Sith can't take all the credit for the corruption of the Republic
I was thinking of bringing this point up, but I knew that if anyone responds, sooner or later this would be mentioned. In fact, Anakin DID bring balance to the Force. The problem is that every prophecy needs to be interpreted. What the Jedi did was take the phrase "bring balance to the Force" and interpret it so that it's favorable for them. They understood the balance as the destruction of the Sith, while balance does NOT mean the triumph of either side. If you put 20 kilos on one side of a scale and 1 kilo on the other, you won't be able to say that the scales are balanced, right? So why would the Force be balanced with only two users of the Dark Side and thousands of users of the Light Side? Anakin brought balance by destroying the Jedi and the Sith. That's right, destroying the Jedi. The moment Yoda died, the Jedi were gone. When Vader and Palpie died, the Sith were gone. The Force is in balance with neither side gaining the upper hand. "But what about Luke?", right? Well, considering his entire training lasted a couple of months tops. Hardly enough to become a Jedi. "Hey, but Yoda tells him he's a Jedi!". Indeed he does. And Obi-wan told him his father was dead. This wouldn't be the first time a Jedi lied to Luke to manipulate him. Luke is NOT a Jedi. He's a Force user, but he is definitely not a Jedi in the traditional sense of the word.
And does that make any part of what the Republic became ok? "We might be bad, but there are others who are worse than us, so that's fine, we're pretty good by comparison", is that what you're saying? Because if so, you're just proving my point
True. I don't recall any estimates on the number of people on the second Death Star, but I believe the numbers given for the first were somewhere around a million. Not all of them were like Tarkin or Motti, there must've been some decent folks up there just doing their jobs (cleaning, cooking, doing maintenance on the trash compactors). All of them died and the New Republic never even considered treating that as genocide.
As far as the Republic not existing on Tatooine... wasn't Tatooine outside the jurisdiction of the Republic? I thought it was part of the Outer Rim - an area of lawlessness because the Republic didn't extend that far.
Either way, you would have made a great propaganda leader for the Emperor. Too bad it all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
And that's the whole point: from the point of view of the Alliance, destroying the Death Stars and killing millions in the process is the right thing to do, but doing the same thing to a planet is a big no-no. That's hypocrisy. What the Alliance did was genocide, pure and simple, either making it as bad as the Empire or, if you accept the fact that collateral damage is unavoidable during a conflict and that sometimes you have to choose "the lesser of two weevils", you'll see that my original point stands - the Empire is not as bad as the Alliance is trying to make it appear.
Agreed. But, as I said earlier, how many died during all the conflicts that the Republic was unable or unwilling to resolve? What about the millions of slaves dying, because the bureaucrats can't be bothered to move their rear ends from behind their desks (or were paid not to)? I am not denying that Palpie had a lot on his conscience. I'm simply saying that what he did might have been the only thing that would put an end to the Republic's stagnation.
Absolutely! And yet not a single Jedi, with their moral code and their "goody-two-shoes" behavior, thought even once about the fate of the clones. They were assets, fully expendable. How many clones died to save a handful of Jedi on Geonosis? Thousands? How many died in similar situations afterwards? Millions? Look at the Order 66 scene, where a padawan is fighting clones as Bail Organa is watching. The senator has no clue what's going on, for all he knows, the Jedi might be conducting a coup, right? And yet he's watching passively as the padawan slaughters one clone after another. When does he react? When the padawan is killed. Welcome to the world of the Republic's double standards.
Right. Except the question is not "Is the Emperor evil?", the question was "Is the EMPIRE evil?".
Then think about this for a second: when the Jedi learn that Palpie is a Sith, what do they do with this information? Do they go to the Senate? No. Do they go to the Senate Guard? No. Do they go to the Coruscant Security Force? No. They inform absolutely no one. They take it upon themselves to deal out what they consider "justice" based on no solid evidence except the word of one frustrated teenager... Yup, they're clearly the good guys here
This is never clearly stated. However, I think Padme would be aware if the planet was outside the Republic and wouldn't bring it up if that was the case.
<blushes>
Yes and no. While originally the term Sith referred to the race, in time it became synonymous with Dark Side users following the philosophy of the Sith. However, not every Dark Side user is a Sith! There are also Dark and Grey Jedi (but that's EU), we don't know the status of the Knights of Ren, but they were probably also DS users who were not Sith.
Are? Brilliant? Ridiculous? Insane? Pure genius?
The DS would've ended-up destroying more and more planets over time not to mention large starships. The needs of the billions outweigh the needs of the few or the 1million?? LOL
I think the Death Star would have only destroyed rebel or criminal ships/planets because it's not to their advantage to destroy planets that can help them
Or the killing of people just because they are "force sensitive."
Whoever was on the DS, chose to be there. Those are casualties of war. The inhabitants of Alderaan were mostly innocent collateral damage, killed on purpose. Under current law, that would be a war crime.
The droid army and following clone wars were setup by Uncle Palps to gain control of the Senate, and overthrow them. Without him, there would not have been a war.
The empire's only goal is to serve it's master, the emperor.
The jedi are democratic, and therefor not efficient. But they do not solely seek their own interest. They withold themselves from personal feelings like passion, ownerschip, even happiness.
But you do have a point. In the end, it was a sick kind of love that made Anakin turn (protect his wife). It's called the light side and the dark side, not the good side and the evil side. There's a lot of grey.
I root for the Jedi, but would probably turn to the dark side after 10 minutes
Not everyone in the empire was evil. Look at it from the storm troopers and all the workers side. A group of terrorists threatening a government that works for most of the Galaxy. From their side they're the heroes and the rebels are the villains
Id be a Gray Jedi, I cant be extreme on either side.
Of course, but there is a difference between killing armed enemies and civilians. Most soldiers believe they are on the right side. Honestly believing you're right doesn't make it so.
Killing rebels isn't evil, intentionally killing innocent bystanders is.
Not quite. First of all, we don't know this. Second, it would be extremely wasteful on the part of the Empire to keep blowing up planets. Not only would it be bad for their image, but also a destroyed planet doesn't generate any income. So I don't think the Empire would keep blowing stuff up at random, they only wanted to do that with the places the Rebels used as bases.
I can say the very same thing - whoever was on Alderaan, a known refuge ond haven of the Rebellion, chose to be there. They knew the government is supporting the Rebels and did nothing to change the situation. That makes each and every one of them an accessory to high treason, not to mention just as guilty of the slaughter of Imperial citizens as those who actually pulled the trigger.
Also, not everyone on the DS was a combatant! As I stated before, there must have been plenty of support staff, logistics, maintenance, food preparation... those were probably civilians hired by the Empire. If they are guilty of the same crimes as the likes of Tarkin, then my point about the people of Alderaan being guilty of treason is valid.
Again, as I've stated before, there was a reason he did this - to get rid of a corrupt governemnt that couldn't protect its citizens! Had the Republic been able to effectively intervene in things like the Naboo trade dispute (which was actually a full-scale invasion with the death toll being "catastrophic"), it might have been worth saving. As it was, the Republic was better off replaced by an efficient organization that was the Empire.
Really? Democratic? Did they democratically decide to overthrow the legally-elected head of a goverment without consulting anyone? Did they democratically choose to hide the fact that they are no longer able to use the Force to the extent they once did with the Senate? Did they democratically decide not to deal with the issue of slavery on Tatooine? All they did, from the very first moment we see them in Episode I, is for their own interest, to gather more power and influence for the Order. There is nothing democratic about it. The Jedi are a bunch of scheming, power-hungry hypocrites who (with a very few exceptions, most of them from the EU, like Bardan Jusik and Etain Tur-Mukan) deserved all that happened to them.
THIS. 'nuff said
Dude, please...
1) Do not bring politics into this. I've had more than enough "Trump this" and "Clinton that" over the past weeks everywhere. Don't bring that garbage into my thread, please.
2) You're treating this WAAAAY too seriously. We're talking about a MOVIE here. I'm not justifying the actions of the Khmer Rouge, Kim Ir Sen or Stalin.
Jedi use deadly force when attacked, they do not use it as a means to get their way.
And the emperor looks like he was melted in a frying pan, that's evil consuming him. How's that for proof
Anakin's training ended when he was consumed by anger and practically cut in half, with no friends or family left. Kylo ren's training ended when he had killed his father. You have to be willing to sacrifice anything and anyone for your own interest before you can call yourself a sith lord.
Tell that to Palpatine, whom Mace Windu deemed "too dangerous to be left alive" - judge, jury and executioner? Also, remember that all he based his accusations on were the words of Anakin, not any solid evidence. This act directly led to Order 66, the Jedi gave Palpie the perfect weapon against them by attacking him.
No, not really. There has always been some opposition against the Empire in the Senate (senators like Princess Leia were pretty openly anti-Empire), but as long as they kept it civil, the Emperor permitted it. When does the Emperor dissolve the Senate? When Leia crosses the line by using her diplomatic immunity in an open attack against the Empire.
Well, if we're judging people by the way they look, many of us should be put in prison or downright executed. He looks the way he does as a result of his duel with Windu. And, as I said before, it was a fight started by the Jedi, NOT by Palpie. The Jedi had no authority to try and arrest the head of the Senate, yet they did.
Not quite. A Sith's training (or rather a Sith apprentice's) is over when he kills his master. Don't know what this looks like with the Knights of Ren (since we don't know much about them), but Snoke called Kylo "MASTER of the Knights of Ren", so it looks like his training might be over as well. We'll know more when Episode VIII comes out
Not quite. The Senate is dissolved when the Death Star is completed. When questioned as to how the Governors would retain control of their sectors Tarkin replied, "Fear. Fear of this battle station." The timing just happened to correspond with the theft of the plans for the Death Star.
Furthermore, the Empire actively supported and encouraged the ruthless activities of the local Governors. Had the Emperor not built an empire out of a whole bunch of ruthless dictators, the Rebellion would have no need to exist. Look to the story from the now defunct Star Wars Uprising game for the evidence of how the Imperials treated the locals. That culture was cultivated by the management at the top, the Emperor.
One last thing, the Death Star was constructed in large part by Wookie slaves (at least according to the former EU). They were most certainly innocents that died when it was destroyed. To a Wookie, they most certainly would have willingly given their life for the outcome that occurred. But along those same lines, battleships and carriers also contain cooks, doctors, plumbers and all sorts of non-combat military personnel. They are still considered soldiers for the purpose of war and the staff of the Death Star would certainly be no exception.