For example, when Empire was made, AT-ATs weren't intended to be the iconic symbols they are now, the writers just needed a big bad machine to destroy the rebel base and show that the empire was still powerful. The fans made AT-ATs what they are now and Rogue One exploited that instead of bringing new things to the table and innovating.
It was set, literally, 10 minutes before A New Hope. If they'd introduced some innovative new technology the fanboys would be crying foul.
They don't need these cliche personality traits. This is a war movie not a magical adventure.
Huh? What has that got to do with anything? Please watch some classic war flicks out there: Where Eagles Dare, Kelly's Heroes, Saving Private Ryan, Guns of Navarone... in each one you get a selection of characters that you come to care about, to like (or, in the case of Oddball from Kelly's Heroes, absolutely ADORE). They have their unique personalities, character traits. They're INTERESTING.
There is nothing interesting about Jyn, Cassian or Chirrut. Jyn, who was supposed to be this "rebelling" Rebel, is completely bland. Why is she a "rebel"? What has she done that is so rebellious? And why can Chirrut walk between blaster bolts if he's not Force-sensitive? What is the point of creating a character that has these magical powers if you don't say what those powers are? It's not like we'll get a sequel explaining it...
@DatBoi : I fully agree with you on this movie. For me this was the greatest disappointment since... Prometheus? I was really counting on a cloak-and-dagger, black ops movie about a desperate mission and instead we get a totally predictable boring movie whose only highlight is K-2SO. And that's just not enough.
They don't need these cliche personality traits. This is a war movie not a magical adventure.
Huh? What has that got to do with anything? Please watch some classic war flicks out there: Where Eagles Dare, Kelly's Heroes, Saving Private Ryan, Guns of Navarone... in each one you get a selection of characters that you come to care about, to like (or, in the case of Oddball from Kelly's Heroes, absolutely ADORE). They have their unique personalities, character traits. They're INTERESTING.
There is nothing interesting about Jyn, Cassian or Chirrut. Jyn, who was supposed to be this "rebelling" Rebel, is completely bland. Why is she a "rebel"? What has she done that is so rebellious? And why can Chirrut walk between blaster bolts if he's not Force-sensitive? What is the point of creating a character that has these magical powers if you don't say what those powers are? It's not like we'll get a sequel explaining it...
@DatBoi : I fully agree with you on this movie. For me this was the greatest disappointment since... Prometheus? I was really counting on a cloak-and-dagger, black ops movie about a desperate mission and instead we get a totally predictable boring movie whose only highlight is K-2SO. And that's just not enough.
Context clues from the movie tell you the force guided chirrut.
Context clues from the movie tell you the force guided chirrut.
Right. Remember what Han said to Finn? "That's not how the Force works". Also, permit me to quote the official Star Wars database entry on Chirrut: he lacks Force abilitiesLINK. So no. The Force was NOT guiding him.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but this is rubbish. Not what you said, but that scene. Now, I COULD understand it if he was waving his staff around, deflecting blaster bolts heading his way. But just walking slowly onwards, fully upright, in the middle of a blazing firefight and not getting hit? Really? All of a sudden he became invisible? All the troopers (including the best of the best - the deathtroopers) just decided to ignore him? "This isn't the Rebel we're looking for"? Tell me, why didn't the Force guide Aayla Secura in the same way? Plo Koon? Ki-Adi Mundi?
No, that scene is just silly. It was meant to be mystical and mysterious, but turned out ridiculous.
Context clues from the movie tell you the force guided chirrut.
Right. Remember what Han said to Finn? "That's not how the Force works". Also, permit me to quote the official Star Wars database entry on Chirrut: he lacks Force abilitiesLINK. So no. The Force was NOT guiding him.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but this is rubbish. Not what you said, but that scene. Now, I COULD understand it if he was waving his staff around, deflecting blaster bolts heading his way. But just walking slowly onwards, fully upright, in the middle of a blazing firefight and not getting hit? Really? All of a sudden he became invisible? All the troopers (including the best of the best - the deathtroopers) just decided to ignore him? "This isn't the Rebel we're looking for"? Tell me, why didn't the Force guide Aayla Secura in the same way? Plo Koon? Ki-Adi Mundi?
No, that scene is just silly. It was meant to be mystical and mysterious, but turned out ridiculous.
But that is how the force works. Throughout the movies we are told thats how the force works. Like when old ben tells luke to let go and let the force guide you.
Context clues from the movie tell you the force guided chirrut.
Right. Remember what Han said to Finn? "That's not how the Force works". Also, permit me to quote the official Star Wars database entry on Chirrut: he lacks Force abilitiesLINK. So no. The Force was NOT guiding him.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but this is rubbish. Not what you said, but that scene. Now, I COULD understand it if he was waving his staff around, deflecting blaster bolts heading his way. But just walking slowly onwards, fully upright, in the middle of a blazing firefight and not getting hit? Really? All of a sudden he became invisible? All the troopers (including the best of the best - the deathtroopers) just decided to ignore him? "This isn't the Rebel we're looking for"? Tell me, why didn't the Force guide Aayla Secura in the same way? Plo Koon? Ki-Adi Mundi?
No, that scene is just silly. It was meant to be mystical and mysterious, but turned out ridiculous.
Yeah, that was extremely disappointing. I kept thinking of an eight year old wrapping themself in a blanket and action it out.
But that is how the force works. Throughout the movies we are told thats how the force works. Like when old ben tells luke to let go and let the force guide you.
When you're Force-sensitive. When you can actually use the Force. You're ignoring what I said: the official lore is clear on the subject - Chirrut was a skilled warrior but he had no connection with the Force. None. Zero. Nada. Null. As such he couldn't use it to avoid blaster fire or make himself vanish from the sight of all the troops around him.
If all you needed to avoid blasters was to have "faith" in the Force, none of the Jedi or Sith in any of the movies would even bother waving their sabers at blaster bolts. All Vader or Windu would have to do is just mutter "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" and keep on walking. Somehow I don't recall any of the doing that. I do, however, recall them deflecting bolts with their sabers.
I kept thinking of an eight year old wrapping themself in a blanket and action it out.
Right? The only way that scene could've been any worse would be if he kept repeating "you cannot see me, I am not here, you CANNOT see me". All they had to do is just make him dash quickly for the switch, get hit once or twice, reach out at the last moment with his staff to flip the switch and done - a meaningful death, a sacrifice by someone who wasfully aware that it was up to him and that his life was a small price to pay. Cliche, yes, but definitely better than The Walk Of Faith.
But that is how the force works. Throughout the movies we are told thats how the force works. Like when old ben tells luke to let go and let the force guide you.
When you're Force-sensitive. When you can actually use the Force. You're ignoring what I said: the official lore is clear on the subject - Chirrut was a skilled warrior but he had no connection with the Force. None. Zero. Nada. Null. As such he couldn't use it to avoid blaster fire or make himself vanish from the sight of all the troops around him.
If all you needed to avoid blasters was to have "faith" in the Force, none of the Jedi or Sith in any of the movies would even bother waving their sabers at blaster bolts. All Vader or Windu would have to do is just mutter "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" and keep on walking. Somehow I don't recall any of the doing that. I do, however, recall them deflecting bolts with their sabers.
I wonder how chirrut could feel that Cassian had murderous intent when he left the ship looking for galen.
Thats how the force works. " it surrounds us, it binds us, it penetrates us." The force has always worked that way. This is why when han says he calls it luck, Obi-wan smiles and says there is no such thing as luck. Because in the star wars universe "luck" is the force. Same reason the rebel council says "may the force be with you". Same reason jyn is told by her parents to "trust the force"
That databse entry doesnt say Chirrut isnt Force sensitive it simply states he has no force ABILITIES. Abilities like force push or lightning or choke or speed. He is definitely force sensitive, otherwise that scene makes no sense nor would his presence on Jeddha. He uses the force the entire movie. As a tool of focus, to "see" Jyn's kyber neckace, to dodge lasers.
Even though i think chirrut could have used some more personality, i actually think his character was one of the few good parts of the movie. We've never seen a character like him before. That is someone who has complete faith in the force but lacks real abilities. For me it was a throwback to a New Hope where the force wasnt a tangible "force" with telepathy and lightning and stuff, but more of a religion people had to believe in.
Chirrut wasn't force sensitive? Gotta be kidding me.
I get a lot of your are firing for things to complain about, but let's not make up stuff that sounds like you watched the movie blindfolded. Because admit it, you don't have the force helping you like Chirrut.
He uses the force the entire movie. As a tool of focus, to "see" Jyn's kyber neckace, to dodge lasers.
Actually no, he does not. Remember the fight with stormies on Jeddha? It is quite clearly shown that he is listening for the sounds the stormies were making. He wasn't "sensing" them, he HEARD them and responded accordingly. As for the necklace, I believe it was announced recently that there was a shard of Kyber crystal in Chirrut's staff and he could feel it resonate when another crystal was around, allowing him to judge the distance, direction and altitude. That's why he said "necklace" - he knew that the shard was at a certain height, so it was unlikely that it was in a pocket.
Everything he does in the movie points to the fact that he was trained to be able to do amazing things, but using the Force was not one of them.
Thats how the force works. " it surrounds us, it binds us, it penetrates us." The force has always worked that way.
Then why bother with the listening? As I said above - he is clearly listening for the sounds of the stormtrooper squad. He's listening to the sound of the TIE's engines. If he could SENSE these things, wouldn't he just confront Cassian? Warn Jyn?
Because in the star wars universe "luck" is the force. Same reason the rebel council says "may the force be with you". Same reason jyn is told by her parents to "trust the force"
But he's not lucky. He's skilled, trained, he knows what he's doing. And, again, the movie clearly stresses numerous times that it's because of his abilities (hearing, touch) that he does the things he does. Luck doesn't come into this.
And the saying about the Force - it's just a sign of defiance against the Empire
All in all, I can concede that Chirrut could be able to sense the Force somehow, but definitely not use it actively. And his "walk" would require a VERY active use of the Force in order to make himself "invisible" by messing with the minds of the troopers around him. There is just no other way around that. Skilled Force users (i.e. Jedi) were not able to avoid blaster bolts and had to deflect them. So either Chirrut is the most powerful Force user EVER or the creators went a bit crazy there.
No, see you have it backwards. Chirrut wasn't using the force in that scene. The force was using him. Kinda like how the force creates a whole coincidence of actions that leads the Skywalker lightsaber back to luke. (Rey randomly finding bb8, finn randomly finding rey, han solo randomly finding finn and rey). All of that wasn't a random sequence of actions, that's how the force works. Han even says he's been looking for the Falcon for a while now, and suddenly it just happens to find him. Not just find him tho, it also has the Droid with the map to Skywalker, the girl that the Skywalker saber calls too, and the man that rescued the best resistance pilot - while also getting rey to leave jakku with bb8. If you cant call that sequence of actions ****, then how can you call the force guiding chirrut to the switch ****.
Isnt chirrut being guided by the force to redirect lasers a step below kylo and vader's stopping a blaster bolt in middair? It required an immense amount of faith and concetration clearly and could only last for a short amount of time. Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity. All the jedi relied on their lightsabers too heavily. We see multiple instances in the Clone Wars where they become nearly helpless without them. Perhaps this "ability" Chirrut "used" is something that fell out of practice as it was thought to be useless. Chirrut was by far my favorite character. I thought he embodied the Jedi way more thann most jedi during the galactic republic. To me he was an example of what happened to all the force sensitives that werent picked up by the empire post-purge. Only his blindness saved him from project harvester. Then Baze to me is extremely weak in the force but was once "the most devoted Guardian of all" to quote Chirrut or perhaps not force sensitive at all but guided Chirrut through youngling teachings just from what he had seen before.
Isnt chirrut channeling the force to redirect lasers a step below kylo and vader's stopping a blaster bolt in middair? It required an immense amount of faith and concetration clearly and could only last for a short amount of time. Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity. All the jedi relied on their lightsabers too heavily. We see multiple instances in the Clone Wars where they become nearly helpless without them. Perhaps this ability Chirrut used is something that fell out of practice as it was thought to be useless. Chirrut was by far my favorite character. I thought he embodied the Jedi way more thann most jedi during the galactic republic. To me he was an example of what happened to all the force sensitives that werent picked up by the empire post-purge. Only his blindness saved him from project harvester. Then Baze to me is extremely weak in the force but was once "the most devoted Guardian of all" to quote Chirrut or perhaps not force sensitive at all but guided Chirrut through youngling teachings just from what he had seen before.
I don't think you're understanding what faith means in this context. When Chirrut goes on his walk of faith, he's not using abilities. He isn't channeling or manipulating the force like a jedi or sith can, he's trusting it and letting it do its thing on its own. Its like Luke at the end of a New Hope when he destroys the death star. He didn't manipulate the force or rely on skill, he surrendered to the force and placed his faith in it. He let the force guide him.
Isnt chirrut channeling the force to redirect lasers a step below kylo and vader's stopping a blaster bolt in middair? It required an immense amount of faith and concetration clearly and could only last for a short amount of time. Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity. All the jedi relied on their lightsabers too heavily. We see multiple instances in the Clone Wars where they become nearly helpless without them. Perhaps this ability Chirrut used is something that fell out of practice as it was thought to be useless. Chirrut was by far my favorite character. I thought he embodied the Jedi way more thann most jedi during the galactic republic. To me he was an example of what happened to all the force sensitives that werent picked up by the empire post-purge. Only his blindness saved him from project harvester. Then Baze to me is extremely weak in the force but was once "the most devoted Guardian of all" to quote Chirrut or perhaps not force sensitive at all but guided Chirrut through youngling teachings just from what he had seen before.
I don't think you're understanding what faith means in this context. When Chirrut goes on his walk of faith, he's not using abilities. He isn't channeling or manipulating the force like a jedi or sith can, he's trusting it and letting it do its thing on its own. Its like Luke at the end of a New Hope when he destroys the death star. He didn't manipulate the force or rely on skill, he surrendered to the force and placed his faith in it. He let the force guide him.
I changed it a bit because my wording was not good enough, but essentially yes Exactly what I was trying to say. That is why I said he embodies what a jedi is supposed to be over any real jedi. Because he completely surrendered to the will of the force. As you said exactly like Luke did when firing those proton torpedoes or when QuiGon was fighting Maul. Really those three are the only three to trully surrender to the will of the force. Maybe yoda too. So 4. Obiwan, Ahsoka, never trully surrendered. They were warriors, a basterdization of what a Jedi should be.
Isnt chirrut channeling the force to redirect lasers a step below kylo and vader's stopping a blaster bolt in middair? It required an immense amount of faith and concetration clearly and could only last for a short amount of time. Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity. All the jedi relied on their lightsabers too heavily. We see multiple instances in the Clone Wars where they become nearly helpless without them. Perhaps this ability Chirrut used is something that fell out of practice as it was thought to be useless. Chirrut was by far my favorite character. I thought he embodied the Jedi way more thann most jedi during the galactic republic. To me he was an example of what happened to all the force sensitives that werent picked up by the empire post-purge. Only his blindness saved him from project harvester. Then Baze to me is extremely weak in the force but was once "the most devoted Guardian of all" to quote Chirrut or perhaps not force sensitive at all but guided Chirrut through youngling teachings just from what he had seen before.
I don't think you're understanding what faith means in this context. When Chirrut goes on his walk of faith, he's not using abilities. He isn't channeling or manipulating the force like a jedi or sith can, he's trusting it and letting it do its thing on its own. Its like Luke at the end of a New Hope when he destroys the death star. He didn't manipulate the force or rely on skill, he surrendered to the force and placed his faith in it. He let the force guide him.
I changed it a bit because my wording was not good enough, but essentially yes Exactly what I was trying to say. That is why I said he embodies what a jedi is supposed to be over any real jedi. Because he completely surrendered to the will of the force. As you said exactly like Luke did when firing those proton torpedoes or when QuiGon was fighting Maul. Really those three are the only three to trully surrender to the will of the force. Maybe yoda too. So 4. Obiwan, Ahsoka, never trully surrendered. They were warriors, a basterdization of what a Jedi should be.
Obi-wan did when he retracted his lightsaber and let vader strike him down.
If you cant call that sequence of actions ****, then how can you call the force guiding chirrut to the switch ****.
You misunderstand - the thing I have a problem with is that he's just cheerfully strolling along in a hail of blaster bolts and not a soul thinks of taking a shot at him. If we accept your theory, why doesn't the Force do that in all the other instances? Why doesn't it guide any of the Jedi who fell during Order 66? Why doesn't it guide any clones safely through a battlefield? Why doesn't it save Porkins from ploughing into the Death Star? We could go on all night like this If we assume that it was "the will of the Force" that Chirrut flips that switch, tell me - why didn't the Force manipulate it on its own? Even with a falling branch or a coconut carried by a strong gust of wind? Maybe because that. Is. Not. How. The. Force. Works!
Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity
There have been plenty of opportunities! Every single Jedi mowed down during Order 66 had an opportunity. Not enought time, perhaps? But then Kylo Ren seems to have enough time to turn around, identify the source of the bolt, STOP the bolt, immobilize Poe... Wouldn't Ki-Adi Mundi, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, be able to do something similar? And either deflect or at least avoid it? Or even sense malicious intent on the part of the clones? Saying that the Jedi relied on their sabers too much for this is a bit irrelevant considering Chirrut doesn't let go of his staff. Ever.
Also, as far as I remember (although I admit I might be mistaken here) he didn't redirect any lasers heading his way (not even Vader was able to do that!), he simply prevented others from shooting at him. And the way to do that is mind trick. In other words, a Force ability. Now, let me repeat the official version: he has NO FORCE ABILITIES.
Edit: dang it, slow down with those posts! I'm using my phone, it takes ages to reply and when I do, there are twenty new posts!
Clearly you are not getting the point. I will just stop here.
Because I'm pointing out inconsitencies in that theory? O_o Sure, we can use the excuse "because the Force willed it" for just about anything, but what will that change? Heck, we can even say that Palpie had Alderaan destroyed because it was the will of the Force! It'll be the same sort of argument.
Chirrut was a neat character and did some incredible things in the movie, but that "walk" was so totally out of character for the entire saga that it was just wrong. If it is true they filmed several variants of every scene, ysing that particular one was a mistake.
Clearly you are not getting the point. I will just stop here.
Because I'm pointing out inconsitencies in that theory? O_o Sure, we can use the excuse "because the Force willed it" for just about anything, but what will that change? Heck, we can even say that Palpie had Alderaan destroyed because it was the will of the Force! It'll be the same sort of argument.
Chirrut was a neat character and did some incredible things in the movie, but that "walk" was so totally out of character for the entire saga that it was just wrong. If it is true they filmed several variants of every scene, ysing that particular one was a mistake.
It's obvious in that particular scene that, yes, the forced willed it. This guy is a guardian to the religion of the force. This is the same guy that is blind, and chants "I am one with the Force blah blah." Like come on man, it doesn't get any more literal than that.
Isnt chirrut channeling the force to redirect lasers a step below kylo and vader's stopping a blaster bolt in middair? It required an immense amount of faith and concetration clearly and could only last for a short amount of time. Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity. All the jedi relied on their lightsabers too heavily. We see multiple instances in the Clone Wars where they become nearly helpless without them. Perhaps this ability Chirrut used is something that fell out of practice as it was thought to be useless. Chirrut was by far my favorite character. I thought he embodied the Jedi way more thann most jedi during the galactic republic. To me he was an example of what happened to all the force sensitives that werent picked up by the empire post-purge. Only his blindness saved him from project harvester. Then Baze to me is extremely weak in the force but was once "the most devoted Guardian of all" to quote Chirrut or perhaps not force sensitive at all but guided Chirrut through youngling teachings just from what he had seen before.
I don't think you're understanding what faith means in this context. When Chirrut goes on his walk of faith, he's not using abilities. He isn't channeling or manipulating the force like a jedi or sith can, he's trusting it and letting it do its thing on its own. Its like Luke at the end of a New Hope when he destroys the death star. He didn't manipulate the force or rely on skill, he surrendered to the force and placed his faith in it. He let the force guide him.
I changed it a bit because my wording was not good enough, but essentially yes Exactly what I was trying to say. That is why I said he embodies what a jedi is supposed to be over any real jedi. Because he completely surrendered to the will of the force. As you said exactly like Luke did when firing those proton torpedoes or when QuiGon was fighting Maul. Really those three are the only three to trully surrender to the will of the force. Maybe yoda too. So 4. Obiwan, Ahsoka, never trully surrendered. They were warriors, a basterdization of what a Jedi should be.
Obi-wan did when he retracted his lightsaber and let vader strike him down.
Agreed, during his selfimpossed exile he finally learned to fully surrender to the force. They actually show the moment he comes to this realization in one of the new Marvel comics, with the help of Quigon. So 5.
Yes we've never seen a skilled force user try it, but there has never been an opportunity
There have been plenty of opportunities! Every single Jedi mowed down during Order 66 had an opportunity. Not enought time, perhaps? But then Kylo Ren seems to have enough time to turn around, identify the source of the bolt, STOP the bolt, immobilize Poe... Wouldn't Ki-Adi Mundi, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, be able to do something similar? And either deflect or at least avoid it? Or even sense malicious intent on the part of the clones? Saying that the Jedi relied on their sabers too much for this is a bit irrelevant considering Chirrut doesn't let go of his staff. Ever.
Also, as far as I remember (although I admit I might be mistaken here) he didn't redirect any lasers heading his way (not even Vader was able to do that!), he simply prevented others from shooting at him. And the way to do that is mind trick. In other words, a Force ability. Now, let me repeat the official version: he has NO FORCE ABILITIES.
Edit: dang it, slow down with those posts! I'm using my phone, it takes ages to reply and when I do, there are twenty new posts!
That is a problem with the jedi and with the prequels. The Order 66 sequence was poorly directed. In particular I'd point out Plo Koon who Anakin admits is a better pilot than him. No way he couldve died in his fighter. I'll forever hate thise scenes because they were bad. Only Yoda sensed the betrayal? Pffft. Kid adi mundi and plo koon are almost as powerful as yoda and mace. No friggin way.
The jedi in the prequels werent true jedi but for a handful. Remember there is a dark side shrine under the jedi temple that has been corrupting the jedi order for millenia. I mean look at how qui gon and obi wan handled the invasion of Naboo. You can say from the moment they attacked the bridge doors they stopped acting like true jedi. Its very similar to how the church used the templars then whiped them out in real life.
As for what I said about jedi relying on their lightsabers too much. I stand by that. Chirruts staff was an extension of himself as the jedi taught that a lightsaber should be. But in the clone wars they were killing tools regardless of saber color.
On my ipad a bit easier to type, but Im enjoying the convo Ring and wont slow
It's obvious in that particular scene that, yes, the forced willed it.
Does the phrase "deus ex machina" have any meaning for you? Because that's exactly what you are suggesting.
This goes totally against everything we've seen about the Force so far. The only reason for the existence of this scene is to give the whole thing a bit of mysticism ("How can you have Star Wars without the Force?" - actually, you can, very easily, some of the greatest SW stories ever told have exactly ZERO force content: Republic Commando, X-Wing, Dark Forces until they changed it, TIE Fighter). Except that it goes waaaaay past it to the point of being ridiculous.
And no, it is NOT the same as Luke firing torpedoes into the exhaust vent. Even at an angle of 90 degrees. Against the flow of the EXHAUST gases.
It's obvious in that particular scene that, yes, the forced willed it.
Does the phrase "deus ex machina" have any meaning for you? Because that's exactly what you are suggesting.
This goes totally against everything we've seen about the Force so far. The only reason for the existence of this scene is to give the whole thing a bit of mysticism ("How can you have Star Wars without the Force?" - actually, you can, very easily, some of the greatest SW stories ever told have exactly ZERO force content: Republic Commando, X-Wing, Dark Forces until they changed it, TIE Fighter). Except that it goes waaaaay past it to the point of being ridiculous.
And no, it is NOT the same as Luke firing torpedoes into the exhaust vent. Even at an angle of 90 degrees. Against the flow of the EXHAUST gases.
I just don't understand how you can deny that's what happened when the scene suggests this is literally what happened. Chirrut is built up the whole movie to give us a different look at a person that trusts in the force, but isn't a jedi. Doesn't chirrut say something along the lines of the force wanting him to follow jyns path?
If you can't take it that the force guided chirrut to the switch and helped him avoid be shot up, then what do you think happened? Baze sure got shot up when he ran out there, so did the soldiers.
When it comes to Order 66 and the whole "why didnt the Force help the Jedi then?" argument, while yes, the prequels are garbage and the fall of the Jedi order should have been handled much differently, i think the argument could be made that order 66 needed to happen. I really dont want to get into religion and everything but maybe "the Force works in mysterious ways" and everything bad that happens in star wars happens for a reason. Those who have watched the clone wars series know that the jedi order was being corrupted and manipulated and therefore maybe needed to fall so it could rise again stronger.
Note: this isn't necessarily what I think. I think this stuff just happens because they're movies and the writers will things to happen.
Agreed, during his selfimpossed exile he finally learned to fully surrender to the force.
This could ALMOST convince me, were it not for two small details. One is Dr. Evazan's hand, which shows that Kenobi still hasn't moved past his former violent nature. Not only does he react very aggressively (in the best traditions of people pointing blasters at him in shady cantinas, as Zam Wessell can testify), but he also does it using a lightsaber. I mean, come on, is there a better way to announce "Jedi wuz ere" to the entire world? The second thing is that this "surrendering" to the Force doesn't prevent him from lying his rear end off to poor naive Luke. Is this what surrendering to the Force is about?
. I'll forever hate thise scenes because they were bad. Only Yoda sensed the betrayal? Pffft. Kid adi mundi and plo koon are almost as powerful as yoda and mace. No friggin way.
Agreed. Unfortunately, we now have to live with them The scenes, not the Jedi. They're dead.
The jedi in the prequels werent true jedi but for a handful.
I will agree that Chirrut on his worst day was ten times the Jedi any of the robe-wearing hypocrites were on their best day. With, maybe, the exception of QGJ. I'm not a fan of the Jedi (aside from two from the EU - Bardan Jusik and Etain Tur-mukan, the Force rest her soul), but I respected him for doing the right thing without caring about the approval of his "superiprs".
On my ipad a bit easier to type, but Im enjoying the convo Ring and wont slow
As am I. It's really nice to be able to discuss these little things. It's what adds to the magic of SW. And I must admit that in some way I hope that the BR edition of Rogue One will be an Enhanced one, with some scenes added. It would really help clear up many things, like this discussion right here.
EDIT: @ObviouslyNot and @DatBoi - If you don't mind, I'll reply tomorrow (or, more precisely, later today). It's past midnight here and I really need to get some sleep but this is a fun discussion so I hope wecan continue it tomorrow. Cheers and g'nite to you all for now
All this stems from the fact that Chirrut was probably supposed to be a Jedi, but they wanted the attention on Jyn, so he has incredibly Jedi-like characteristics without being an actual Jedi.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
As much as I love these discussions, I'd like to point out how difficult it can be to have them when most of the lore (canon and otherwise) is often obfuscated by poor, inconsistent writing with plot holes galore.
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It was set, literally, 10 minutes before A New Hope. If they'd introduced some innovative new technology the fanboys would be crying foul.
Huh? What has that got to do with anything? Please watch some classic war flicks out there: Where Eagles Dare, Kelly's Heroes, Saving Private Ryan, Guns of Navarone... in each one you get a selection of characters that you come to care about, to like (or, in the case of Oddball from Kelly's Heroes, absolutely ADORE). They have their unique personalities, character traits. They're INTERESTING.
There is nothing interesting about Jyn, Cassian or Chirrut. Jyn, who was supposed to be this "rebelling" Rebel, is completely bland. Why is she a "rebel"? What has she done that is so rebellious? And why can Chirrut walk between blaster bolts if he's not Force-sensitive? What is the point of creating a character that has these magical powers if you don't say what those powers are? It's not like we'll get a sequel explaining it...
@DatBoi : I fully agree with you on this movie. For me this was the greatest disappointment since... Prometheus? I was really counting on a cloak-and-dagger, black ops movie about a desperate mission and instead we get a totally predictable boring movie whose only highlight is K-2SO. And that's just not enough.
Context clues from the movie tell you the force guided chirrut.
Right. Remember what Han said to Finn? "That's not how the Force works". Also, permit me to quote the official Star Wars database entry on Chirrut: he lacks Force abilities LINK. So no. The Force was NOT guiding him.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but this is rubbish. Not what you said, but that scene. Now, I COULD understand it if he was waving his staff around, deflecting blaster bolts heading his way. But just walking slowly onwards, fully upright, in the middle of a blazing firefight and not getting hit? Really? All of a sudden he became invisible? All the troopers (including the best of the best - the deathtroopers) just decided to ignore him? "This isn't the Rebel we're looking for"? Tell me, why didn't the Force guide Aayla Secura in the same way? Plo Koon? Ki-Adi Mundi?
No, that scene is just silly. It was meant to be mystical and mysterious, but turned out ridiculous.
But that is how the force works. Throughout the movies we are told thats how the force works. Like when old ben tells luke to let go and let the force guide you.
Yeah, that was extremely disappointing. I kept thinking of an eight year old wrapping themself in a blanket and action it out.
When you're Force-sensitive. When you can actually use the Force. You're ignoring what I said: the official lore is clear on the subject - Chirrut was a skilled warrior but he had no connection with the Force. None. Zero. Nada. Null. As such he couldn't use it to avoid blaster fire or make himself vanish from the sight of all the troops around him.
If all you needed to avoid blasters was to have "faith" in the Force, none of the Jedi or Sith in any of the movies would even bother waving their sabers at blaster bolts. All Vader or Windu would have to do is just mutter "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" and keep on walking. Somehow I don't recall any of the doing that. I do, however, recall them deflecting bolts with their sabers.
Right? The only way that scene could've been any worse would be if he kept repeating "you cannot see me, I am not here, you CANNOT see me". All they had to do is just make him dash quickly for the switch, get hit once or twice, reach out at the last moment with his staff to flip the switch and done - a meaningful death, a sacrifice by someone who wasfully aware that it was up to him and that his life was a small price to pay. Cliche, yes, but definitely better than The Walk Of Faith.
I wonder how chirrut could feel that Cassian had murderous intent when he left the ship looking for galen.
Thats how the force works. " it surrounds us, it binds us, it penetrates us." The force has always worked that way. This is why when han says he calls it luck, Obi-wan smiles and says there is no such thing as luck. Because in the star wars universe "luck" is the force. Same reason the rebel council says "may the force be with you". Same reason jyn is told by her parents to "trust the force"
I get a lot of your are firing for things to complain about, but let's not make up stuff that sounds like you watched the movie blindfolded. Because admit it, you don't have the force helping you like Chirrut.
Actually no, he does not. Remember the fight with stormies on Jeddha? It is quite clearly shown that he is listening for the sounds the stormies were making. He wasn't "sensing" them, he HEARD them and responded accordingly. As for the necklace, I believe it was announced recently that there was a shard of Kyber crystal in Chirrut's staff and he could feel it resonate when another crystal was around, allowing him to judge the distance, direction and altitude. That's why he said "necklace" - he knew that the shard was at a certain height, so it was unlikely that it was in a pocket.
Everything he does in the movie points to the fact that he was trained to be able to do amazing things, but using the Force was not one of them.
I take it "it was something in his voice" won't satisfy you?
Then why bother with the listening? As I said above - he is clearly listening for the sounds of the stormtrooper squad. He's listening to the sound of the TIE's engines. If he could SENSE these things, wouldn't he just confront Cassian? Warn Jyn?
But he's not lucky. He's skilled, trained, he knows what he's doing. And, again, the movie clearly stresses numerous times that it's because of his abilities (hearing, touch) that he does the things he does. Luck doesn't come into this.
And the saying about the Force - it's just a sign of defiance against the Empire
All in all, I can concede that Chirrut could be able to sense the Force somehow, but definitely not use it actively. And his "walk" would require a VERY active use of the Force in order to make himself "invisible" by messing with the minds of the troopers around him. There is just no other way around that. Skilled Force users (i.e. Jedi) were not able to avoid blaster bolts and had to deflect them. So either Chirrut is the most powerful Force user EVER or the creators went a bit crazy there.
No, see you have it backwards. Chirrut wasn't using the force in that scene. The force was using him. Kinda like how the force creates a whole coincidence of actions that leads the Skywalker lightsaber back to luke. (Rey randomly finding bb8, finn randomly finding rey, han solo randomly finding finn and rey). All of that wasn't a random sequence of actions, that's how the force works. Han even says he's been looking for the Falcon for a while now, and suddenly it just happens to find him. Not just find him tho, it also has the Droid with the map to Skywalker, the girl that the Skywalker saber calls too, and the man that rescued the best resistance pilot - while also getting rey to leave jakku with bb8. If you cant call that sequence of actions ****, then how can you call the force guiding chirrut to the switch ****.
I don't think you're understanding what faith means in this context. When Chirrut goes on his walk of faith, he's not using abilities. He isn't channeling or manipulating the force like a jedi or sith can, he's trusting it and letting it do its thing on its own. Its like Luke at the end of a New Hope when he destroys the death star. He didn't manipulate the force or rely on skill, he surrendered to the force and placed his faith in it. He let the force guide him.
I changed it a bit because my wording was not good enough, but essentially yes Exactly what I was trying to say. That is why I said he embodies what a jedi is supposed to be over any real jedi. Because he completely surrendered to the will of the force. As you said exactly like Luke did when firing those proton torpedoes or when QuiGon was fighting Maul. Really those three are the only three to trully surrender to the will of the force. Maybe yoda too. So 4. Obiwan, Ahsoka, never trully surrendered. They were warriors, a basterdization of what a Jedi should be.
Obi-wan did when he retracted his lightsaber and let vader strike him down.
You misunderstand - the thing I have a problem with is that he's just cheerfully strolling along in a hail of blaster bolts and not a soul thinks of taking a shot at him. If we accept your theory, why doesn't the Force do that in all the other instances? Why doesn't it guide any of the Jedi who fell during Order 66? Why doesn't it guide any clones safely through a battlefield? Why doesn't it save Porkins from ploughing into the Death Star? We could go on all night like this
There have been plenty of opportunities! Every single Jedi mowed down during Order 66 had an opportunity. Not enought time, perhaps? But then Kylo Ren seems to have enough time to turn around, identify the source of the bolt, STOP the bolt, immobilize Poe... Wouldn't Ki-Adi Mundi, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, be able to do something similar? And either deflect or at least avoid it? Or even sense malicious intent on the part of the clones? Saying that the Jedi relied on their sabers too much for this is a bit irrelevant considering Chirrut doesn't let go of his staff. Ever.
Also, as far as I remember (although I admit I might be mistaken here) he didn't redirect any lasers heading his way (not even Vader was able to do that!), he simply prevented others from shooting at him. And the way to do that is mind trick. In other words, a Force ability. Now, let me repeat the official version: he has NO FORCE ABILITIES.
Edit: dang it, slow down with those posts!
Clearly you are not getting the point. I will just stop here.
Because I'm pointing out inconsitencies in that theory? O_o Sure, we can use the excuse "because the Force willed it" for just about anything, but what will that change? Heck, we can even say that Palpie had Alderaan destroyed because it was the will of the Force! It'll be the same sort of argument.
Chirrut was a neat character and did some incredible things in the movie, but that "walk" was so totally out of character for the entire saga that it was just wrong. If it is true they filmed several variants of every scene, ysing that particular one was a mistake.
It's obvious in that particular scene that, yes, the forced willed it. This guy is a guardian to the religion of the force. This is the same guy that is blind, and chants "I am one with the Force blah blah." Like come on man, it doesn't get any more literal than that.
Agreed, during his selfimpossed exile he finally learned to fully surrender to the force. They actually show the moment he comes to this realization in one of the new Marvel comics, with the help of Quigon. So 5.
That is a problem with the jedi and with the prequels. The Order 66 sequence was poorly directed. In particular I'd point out Plo Koon who Anakin admits is a better pilot than him. No way he couldve died in his fighter. I'll forever hate thise scenes because they were bad. Only Yoda sensed the betrayal? Pffft. Kid adi mundi and plo koon are almost as powerful as yoda and mace. No friggin way.
The jedi in the prequels werent true jedi but for a handful. Remember there is a dark side shrine under the jedi temple that has been corrupting the jedi order for millenia. I mean look at how qui gon and obi wan handled the invasion of Naboo. You can say from the moment they attacked the bridge doors they stopped acting like true jedi. Its very similar to how the church used the templars then whiped them out in real life.
As for what I said about jedi relying on their lightsabers too much. I stand by that. Chirruts staff was an extension of himself as the jedi taught that a lightsaber should be. But in the clone wars they were killing tools regardless of saber color.
On my ipad a bit easier to type, but Im enjoying the convo Ring and wont slow
Does the phrase "deus ex machina" have any meaning for you? Because that's exactly what you are suggesting.
This goes totally against everything we've seen about the Force so far. The only reason for the existence of this scene is to give the whole thing a bit of mysticism ("How can you have Star Wars without the Force?" - actually, you can, very easily, some of the greatest SW stories ever told have exactly ZERO force content: Republic Commando, X-Wing, Dark Forces until they changed it, TIE Fighter). Except that it goes waaaaay past it to the point of being ridiculous.
And no, it is NOT the same as Luke firing torpedoes into the exhaust vent. Even at an angle of 90 degrees. Against the flow of the EXHAUST gases.
I just don't understand how you can deny that's what happened when the scene suggests this is literally what happened. Chirrut is built up the whole movie to give us a different look at a person that trusts in the force, but isn't a jedi. Doesn't chirrut say something along the lines of the force wanting him to follow jyns path?
If you can't take it that the force guided chirrut to the switch and helped him avoid be shot up, then what do you think happened? Baze sure got shot up when he ran out there, so did the soldiers.
Note: this isn't necessarily what I think. I think this stuff just happens because they're movies and the writers will things to happen.
This could ALMOST convince me, were it not for two small details. One is Dr. Evazan's hand, which shows that Kenobi still hasn't moved past his former violent nature. Not only does he react very aggressively (in the best traditions of people pointing blasters at him in shady cantinas, as Zam Wessell can testify), but he also does it using a lightsaber. I mean, come on, is there a better way to announce "Jedi wuz ere" to the entire world? The second thing is that this "surrendering" to the Force doesn't prevent him from lying his rear end off to poor naive Luke. Is this what surrendering to the Force is about?
Agreed. Unfortunately, we now have to live with them
I will agree that Chirrut on his worst day was ten times the Jedi any of the robe-wearing hypocrites were on their best day. With, maybe, the exception of QGJ. I'm not a fan of the Jedi (aside from two from the EU - Bardan Jusik and Etain Tur-mukan, the Force rest her soul), but I respected him for doing the right thing without caring about the approval of his "superiprs".
Even though it was as much of a weapon asthe lightsaber for the Jedi.
As am I. It's really nice to be able to discuss these little things. It's what adds to the magic of SW. And I must admit that in some way I hope that the BR edition of Rogue One will be an Enhanced one, with some scenes added. It would really help clear up many things, like this discussion right here.
EDIT: @ObviouslyNot and @DatBoi - If you don't mind, I'll reply tomorrow (or, more precisely, later today). It's past midnight here and I really need to get some sleep but this is a fun discussion so I hope wecan continue it tomorrow. Cheers and g'nite to you all for now
Aight bro, btw sorry if I ever came off harsh...as I do enjoy these discussions also. I was just in a bad mood when I said I would stop here.