Poe Dameron balancing

Replies

  • I just noticed that AI Poe doesnt even always taunt the first turn.
  • It still does MOST of the time, like in 90% of battles in my experience anyways.
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Triqui wrote: »
    I find it funny that after using strawmans, ad hominems and red herrings, the argument to defend Poe current status is now argumentum ad baculum. "If they nerf the reason why I'm top 5 instead of top 50, I'll demand a refund".
    How does demanding a refund shows that Poe is or is not balanced? Why does (some) people try to move the discussion away from Poe's ststus as a balanced or unbalanced character? In all fairness, a few people have tried to argument that. However, those arguments are scarce, compared to the threats to refund, the ad hominems against " nerf bunnies" and the calls to keep him as is "because I invested", none of which tell us anything about Poe's skill.

    So what if we discuss just this:
    Is it balanced to have a skill that allow you to have 5 turns in a row before your oponent in a turn based game? Because that's what matters. I'm open to hear why that is a good thing, honestly.

    Keyzer, truth hurts, doesn't it? I have yet to come across any sound argument from you as to why Poe should remain as he is now. Admit it. You just don't want Poe (or as a matter of fact, ANY character that you own) adjusted because you relish the advantage that he brings and are concerned about losing competitive edge. But what's the worry if are you spending a fortune on this game? Let money buy your way through - as how you seem to brag about it.

    Triqui wrote: »
    I'm fine with it not being s consensus. Some people defending current status Poe have expressed some good arguments about him, yourself included. Among those:

    1) problem is not Poe, it's the team of turn 7 navy seals that obliterate things in 1 hit.

    2) Poe actually adds viability to toons that wouldn't be played otherwise (such as slower droids)

    3) Poe is the only viable tank, ir close to (han is good enough, just worse)

    4) Poe is farmable and closes the gap with P2W.

    I'm sure I forgot others. Some are more convincing, others are less. Discussing about those, or the Pro-nerf counterparts (like my objection to open the door to first turn combo, or many other ecpressed here) IS helpful.


    But threats to rage quit and refund do not address st all if Poe is or isnt balanced.it doesnt matter if it is people who threat to refund if Poe is touched, or threat to refund if Poe isn't touched. It is childish, and sounds like those kids that threat to stop breathing if they have to eat soup for dinner.

    So let's go back to discuss Poe and his balanced or unbslanced status, please

    1. As Triqui stated, "Stay on target!"
    2. It really is immature for some people to resort to threats to get their message across
    3. No one wants to see Poe nerfed to oblivion. I am concerned Poe will be in tatters if CG takes a step-by-step approach to balance him. Poe doesn't need his expose chance reduced if his TM reduction is resistible or the TM reduction percentage is based on per Resistance member in the team (i.e. +5% per Resistence character in the team)

    As for those arguments listed above, my view is:

    1. Very true. That is the real problem
    2. Yes, but most of the time, he is not used for that purpose. Do you see Poe with Darth Maul or Asajj? Not really (the only slow hero that is used thanks to Poe is FOTP because he can one shot kill). Poe is often grouped with fast, high-dps to ensure they get to shoot first
    3. He outperforms other tanks and it is not even close. Isn't that what CG said for Barriss (and yes, she was over-nerfed)?
    4. Farmable has nothing to do with game balance
  • CPMP
    974 posts Member
    If anyone with Poe demands a refund, then i demand also to reset their Arena rating, arena tokens, GW tokens, because they got them all those thx to Poe. If they don't reset those, then i demand all people that don't have Poe to get a refund, because those who will get refund from Poe it will be like they played with a free character all those months till now and got boosted.
    So lets cut all the refund crap and be real. If Poe gets nerfed, you won't get back anything. Because he was a free and easy obtainable character. If you decided to waste money to speed up the process, you already got awarded by it from being able to use him earlier than others.
  • CPMP wrote: »
    If anyone with Poe demands a refund, then i demand also to reset their Arena rating, arena tokens, GW tokens, because they got them all those thx to Poe. If they don't reset those, then i demand all people that don't have Poe to get a refund, because those who will get refund from Poe it will be like they played with a free character all those months till now and got boosted.
    So lets cut all the refund crap and be real. If Poe gets nerfed, you won't get back anything. Because he was a free and easy obtainable character. If you decided to waste money to speed up the process, you already got awarded by it from being able to use him earlier than others.

    I agree with this there shouldnt be a refund. It is your decision knowing that anyone can be nerfed at anytime.
  • Qeltar
    4326 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    I'll get on the refund train if they nerf Poe more.
    d3gauss wrote: »
    You had to freaking know poe was too powerful, there were a million posts on the forums about it and he is over represented in game.

    For some this is true. For most my guess is that it is the exact opposite.
    At the time that the TFA pack came out, the general consensus was that Kylo Ren and Phasma were the two best characters (and Rey and FOTP, but they weren't in there). People on the Apple platform complained that they got Poe instead of Phasma because she had an assist ability and he was "just a tank". It was only a couple of weeks after that, when whales starred Poe up and started using him, that it became widely known how strong he was.
    Given that, it's .. interesting .. to see people threatening to try to get refunds on the basis of Poe being nerfed. I'll bet that 95% of the people who use Poe now either got him for free on the Apple platform, got him as a "throw-in" trying to get Kylo and had no idea he was even good, or farmed him after knowing he was OP and the nerf talk was already underway. Very very few people can honestly say they knew he was great when the pack came out and that they bought that pack for him specifically before his OP nature was known.
    Quit 7/14/16. Best of luck to all of you.
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    This discussion is really getting old and tiring. Enough people from both sides (myself included) have said the same thing over and over and over again.

    I am more interested in CG_John's view on speedy heroes (Geo, Rey, IG-86, QGJ... the usual suspects) being able to one shot kill a fully-geared 7* character as this is the true problem. Many people have called this out, but CG has been tight-lipped about this. If this is what they intended, at least let us know so that we can manage our expectation.

    At worst, Poe's ability to let one's team go first would not be as disruptive as now if defense and armor meant something in this game. CG spent all that effort on designing slower heroes such as Darth Maul, Chewie and Asajj for what? They are all sitting on the bench and collecting dust. Can't CG see the rage and state of loss when players witness their investment for weeks getting one shot killed?

    What happened to all those questions that EA_Jesse collected and promised to come back soon with answers?
  • I havent even read this thread past this page, but I bet I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for each time Qeltar posted on here :D .
  • Qeltar wrote: »
    For some this is true. For most my guess is that it is the exact opposite.
    At the time that the TFA pack came out, the general consensus was that Kylo Ren and Phasma were the two best characters (and Rey and FOTP, but they weren't in there). People on the Apple platform complained that they got Poe instead of Phasma because she had an assist ability and he was "just a tank". It was only a couple of weeks after that, when whales starred Poe up and started using him, that it became widely known how strong he was.
    Given that, it's .. interesting .. to see people threatening to try to get refunds on the basis of Poe being nerfed. I'll bet that 95% of the people who use Poe now either got him for free on the Apple platform, got him as a "throw-in" trying to get Kylo and had no idea he was even good, or farmed him after knowing he was OP and the nerf talk was already underway. Very very few people can honestly say they knew he was great when the pack came out and that they bought that pack for him specifically before his OP nature was known.

    Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot.
  • MenaceTEC wrote: »
    @EA_Jesse @CG_JohnSalera why would devs create balance by reducing the target OP toon of the month in these forums? I believe this happened before with Barriss.

    I contend that Sid is much more OP, same with Lea, FOTP, Genosian... Need I go on? All of which I have myself.

    People want to complain that they were in the top 10 when they started and now they can't because of Poe. This will just continue until every character has his month in the OP post tirades of those who aren't winning.

    I've been supportive, even in this last update although it devalues something I spent my own real money on. Changing bugs with the way Phasma was intended to work is different than catering to those who complain the most.

    Had they focused on Poe rather than Sid they would be crying for a nerf of Sid or whoever they don't have or don't want to use.

    I completely agree. TeamNerf will be crying until the cows come home.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    CronozNL wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    Honestly I think it's fair for players to ask for compensation when a character is nerfed. Personally I think there's no question Poe will need further balancing, but I also think that in a game like this where you invest time and especially money to progress, that progress needs to be kept.

    I think theres been a few version of how to deal with that, but you can see mine at the top of the last page. Basically, when you nerf a character you give players the option for a time to refund the shards ingame and apply them to another character (of the same rarity).

    Tell that to Blizzard, ArenaNet, Bioware, 2k, Piraxis do I need to continue? Nerfing is part of competitive gaming. If you think you have rights than guess again.. Would love to get Blizzards monthly fee back because they "changed" the game.

    I was actually specifically comparing it to Blizzard. This game is much closer to Hearthstone than World or Warcraft. In Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed you are "refunded" in game with in game currency to craft a new card of equivalent value, if you choose to destroy the nerfed card.

    I think a system like that would be very effective here in allowing the devs to balance characters without upsetting people or getting demands for actual cash refunds.
  • Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill
  • Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    medetec wrote: »
    CronozNL wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    Honestly I think it's fair for players to ask for compensation when a character is nerfed. Personally I think there's no question Poe will need further balancing, but I also think that in a game like this where you invest time and especially money to progress, that progress needs to be kept.

    I think theres been a few version of how to deal with that, but you can see mine at the top of the last page. Basically, when you nerf a character you give players the option for a time to refund the shards ingame and apply them to another character (of the same rarity).

    Tell that to Blizzard, ArenaNet, Bioware, 2k, Piraxis do I need to continue? Nerfing is part of competitive gaming. If you think you have rights than guess again.. Would love to get Blizzards monthly fee back because they "changed" the game.

    I was actually specifically comparing it to Blizzard. This game is much closer to Hearthstone than World or Warcraft. In Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed you are "refunded" in game with in game currency to craft a new card of equivalent value, if you choose to destroy the nerfed card.

    I think a system like that would be very effective here in allowing the devs to balance characters without upsetting people or getting demands for actual cash refunds.

    This is actually not a bad idea. I like it, regardless of what happen to Poe. Whenever a char has a change, CG can discretionaly open a window (1 week?) to allow people to destroy their char and get those shards back in another shard of the same type of currency (so, if you lose your 7* poe, you could get 7* Daka, Fives, Ashoka, QGJ...)
    Sounds elegant, and pretty sure that CG preffer that to refunds.
  • Triqui wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    CronozNL wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    Honestly I think it's fair for players to ask for compensation when a character is nerfed. Personally I think there's no question Poe will need further balancing, but I also think that in a game like this where you invest time and especially money to progress, that progress needs to be kept.

    I think theres been a few version of how to deal with that, but you can see mine at the top of the last page. Basically, when you nerf a character you give players the option for a time to refund the shards ingame and apply them to another character (of the same rarity).

    Tell that to Blizzard, ArenaNet, Bioware, 2k, Piraxis do I need to continue? Nerfing is part of competitive gaming. If you think you have rights than guess again.. Would love to get Blizzards monthly fee back because they "changed" the game.

    I was actually specifically comparing it to Blizzard. This game is much closer to Hearthstone than World or Warcraft. In Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed you are "refunded" in game with in game currency to craft a new card of equivalent value, if you choose to destroy the nerfed card.

    I think a system like that would be very effective here in allowing the devs to balance characters without upsetting people or getting demands for actual cash refunds.

    This is actually not a bad idea. I like it, regardless of what happen to Poe. Whenever a char has a change, CG can discretionaly open a window (1 week?) to allow people to destroy their char and get those shards back in another shard of the same type of currency (so, if you lose your 7* poe, you could get 7* Daka, Fives, Ashoka, QGJ...)
    Sounds elegant, and pretty sure that CG preffer that to refunds.

    ...except that would reduce the opportunity for CG to make money as people will simply dismantle an hero and move to another whenever a meta shifts or there is a balance change - rather than pouring in crystals to refill energy or buy Chromiums to level up an hero.
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Its better than people asking for cash refunds. And it works for Blizzard so its not like the idea hasn't been tested.
  • One common issue I keep seeing is that the most broken toons are ones that their ability impacts everyone. If you were to make a tiny change to Poe that had his turn meter reduction ony impact FO characters then he is no longer broken. Did should only impact dark side and so on. This would force creative building and make people expand past having one one or two similar teams.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    obiwan1011 wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    CronozNL wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    Honestly I think it's fair for players to ask for compensation when a character is nerfed. Personally I think there's no question Poe will need further balancing, but I also think that in a game like this where you invest time and especially money to progress, that progress needs to be kept.

    I think theres been a few version of how to deal with that, but you can see mine at the top of the last page. Basically, when you nerf a character you give players the option for a time to refund the shards ingame and apply them to another character (of the same rarity).

    Tell that to Blizzard, ArenaNet, Bioware, 2k, Piraxis do I need to continue? Nerfing is part of competitive gaming. If you think you have rights than guess again.. Would love to get Blizzards monthly fee back because they "changed" the game.

    I was actually specifically comparing it to Blizzard. This game is much closer to Hearthstone than World or Warcraft. In Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed you are "refunded" in game with in game currency to craft a new card of equivalent value, if you choose to destroy the nerfed card.

    I think a system like that would be very effective here in allowing the devs to balance characters without upsetting people or getting demands for actual cash refunds.

    This is actually not a bad idea. I like it, regardless of what happen to Poe. Whenever a char has a change, CG can discretionaly open a window (1 week?) to allow people to destroy their char and get those shards back in another shard of the same type of currency (so, if you lose your 7* poe, you could get 7* Daka, Fives, Ashoka, QGJ...)
    Sounds elegant, and pretty sure that CG preffer that to refunds.

    ...except that would reduce the opportunity for CG to make money as people will simply dismantle an hero and move to another whenever a meta shifts or there is a balance change - rather than pouring in crystals to refill energy or buy Chromiums to level up an hero.
    Hence why I said it would be "discretionally" for CG. They could do it whenever they please. For example, current change to Poe might do, while Phasma's bug fix wouldnt. Similar to what they did to Barris
  • Triqui wrote: »
    obiwan1011 wrote: »
    Triqui wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    CronozNL wrote: »
    medetec wrote: »
    Honestly I think it's fair for players to ask for compensation when a character is nerfed. Personally I think there's no question Poe will need further balancing, but I also think that in a game like this where you invest time and especially money to progress, that progress needs to be kept.

    I think theres been a few version of how to deal with that, but you can see mine at the top of the last page. Basically, when you nerf a character you give players the option for a time to refund the shards ingame and apply them to another character (of the same rarity).

    Tell that to Blizzard, ArenaNet, Bioware, 2k, Piraxis do I need to continue? Nerfing is part of competitive gaming. If you think you have rights than guess again.. Would love to get Blizzards monthly fee back because they "changed" the game.

    I was actually specifically comparing it to Blizzard. This game is much closer to Hearthstone than World or Warcraft. In Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed you are "refunded" in game with in game currency to craft a new card of equivalent value, if you choose to destroy the nerfed card.

    I think a system like that would be very effective here in allowing the devs to balance characters without upsetting people or getting demands for actual cash refunds.

    This is actually not a bad idea. I like it, regardless of what happen to Poe. Whenever a char has a change, CG can discretionaly open a window (1 week?) to allow people to destroy their char and get those shards back in another shard of the same type of currency (so, if you lose your 7* poe, you could get 7* Daka, Fives, Ashoka, QGJ...)
    Sounds elegant, and pretty sure that CG preffer that to refunds.

    ...except that would reduce the opportunity for CG to make money as people will simply dismantle an hero and move to another whenever a meta shifts or there is a balance change - rather than pouring in crystals to refill energy or buy Chromiums to level up an hero.
    Hence why I said it would be "discretionally" for CG. They could do it whenever they please. For example, current change to Poe might do, while Phasma's bug fix wouldnt. Similar to what they did to Barris

    By no means I am against the idea, but that word "discretionally" is what makes me nervous as it can be quite subjective. If CG allows it for one hero while doesn't for another, expect to see a lot of upset players...
  • medetec
    1571 posts Member
    Blizzard has a strict policy on it in Hearthstone, when a card is nerfed in any way there's a window to scrap it for ingame currency of the full value it cost to create with ingame currency.

    Blizzard makes titanic heaps of cash on Hearhstone, they don't seem to be hurt by it in the least.
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Another easy way to avoid the effect that @obiwan1011 mentions (people using it to upgrade to new content) is just make the balance patch/nerf happen out of sync with the new addition of content.
    For example, they could nerf Poe today, making turn meter manipulation resistable. We have 3 days to scratch him and get Ashoka Tano, or whatever other Cantina hero you think it's better than Poe with a resistable turn meter manipulation. ¿Done? Window closed. Next week they release the content patch, and add Rebel Luke to Cantina, but you can't use Poe to get an instant free Rebel Luke.
  • Alecationz
    23 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Hendiju wrote: »
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.

    I am rank 1-3 on my server, I have Poe at 7* and I fight against other Poes

    if you remove his speed, than youy might as well use Storm trooper Han, he has better abilities

    the answer is to make him easier to kill, not make him useless
  • Alecationz wrote: »
    Hendiju wrote: »
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.

    I am rank 1-3 on my server, I have Poe at 7* and I fight against other Poes

    if you remove his speed, than youy might as well use Storm trooper Han, he has better abilities

    the answer is to make him easier to kill, not make him useless

    I never mentioned speed.
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Ivadek
    60 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    How the hell is it even possible to get refunded money just because of a nerf. Are u guys crazy? When u pay u already know If someone is op it will be nerfed sooner or later... Its like buying gems in clash of clans to level up a building then it suddenly became useless in a patch...Noone even tries to get a refund in that case. Anyone who thinks just because you paid money you have the right to get back what you paid is nuts.
  • Alecationz wrote: »
    Hendiju wrote: »
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.

    I am rank 1-3 on my server, I have Poe at 7* and I fight against other Poes

    if you remove his speed, than youy might as well use Storm trooper Han, he has better abilities

    the answer is to make him easier to kill, not make him useless

    You are wrong, again.. Poe's issue is his turn meter reduction.. In a turn based game if your opponent takes 5 actions in a row, you are dead, obviously assuming 2 teams with same power level..
    This isn't only a players' problem, it's a CAPITAL GAMES problem, because the simple existance of a char like Poe simply influence all future contents for the game.. Why? Beacuse Poe is a so staple charachter in arena lines-up that people won't buy any new char if these are less powerful than Poe, forcing CG to create a phenomenon called POWER CREEP, i.e. to create new char with same skills (more or less) but with better flat stats..
  • Triqui
    2790 posts Member
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Hendiju wrote: »
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.

    I am rank 1-3 on my server, I have Poe at 7* and I fight against other Poes

    if you remove his speed, than youy might as well use Storm trooper Han, he has better abilities

    the answer is to make him easier to kill, not make him useless

    Keep him being fast then. It's the turn manipulation what cause the issues
  • obiwan1011
    396 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Hendiju wrote: »
    Alecationz wrote: »
    Stop crying people, these changes are fine, if Poe resist less, will be easier to debuff him, and he won't heal us much, making him easier to kill

    Typical answer from someone who hasn't a clue why Poe is OP... It's not that he resists or is hard to kill. It's his turn meter reduction that allows his team to attack before you can even defend or attack resulting in an immediate 5v3 and you haven't even done anything.

    I am rank 1-3 on my server, I have Poe at 7* and I fight against other Poes

    if you remove his speed, than youy might as well use Storm trooper Han, he has better abilities

    the answer is to make him easier to kill, not make him useless

    Yet another "I don't want Poe balanced (in terms of his speed or TM reduction) because I have him and he helps me keep my rank." Sigh. Why don't you stop crying? Try to at least pretend you have some sound argument as to why Poe does not need adjustment.

    For the love of God, why not use Han if you honestly believe he has better abilities? Don't you see that you are essentially agreeing Poe is too good with his fast speed and TM reduction?

    Not a single hero that I can think of has a 100% chance to inflict TM reduction as with Poe. Phasma has 75% chance with her AOE. Han has 20-25% chance whenever attacked or makes his turn. Tarkin's speed down AOE is only applicable to Rebels. Old Ben has 65% chance. Chewie? 40% chance. FOO has 70% chance.
  • Can the mods lock this thread please
  • Who thinks being able to have your entire team go first is fair? Damage is fine and speed is the meta, luckily all but 1 speed character is FTP and the P2W (Leia) isn't even that good, because she invis first. I want to see multiple RNG coin flips in 2 minutes not just 1.
  • LukeSkywalker420
    460 posts Member
    edited February 2016
    Who thinks being able to have your entire team go first is fair? Damage is fine and speed is the meta, luckily all but 1 speed character is FTP and the P2W (Leia) isn't even that good, because she invis first. I want to see multiple RNG coin flips in 2 minutes not just 1.

    Damage is not fine that is ****. So no Poe and instead of matches lasting 30 seconds they will be 15 seconds. Maybe Poe needs to be adjusted making the turn reduction resistable. i dont agree with that as the change but maybe it does need to be changed. But to say damage is fine that is absolutely not true. Unless you make taunt unremovable and give tanks more health or armor. There is a 5 minute timer so equally matched teams battling should last on average about 2-3 minutes unless one side is horrible. Otherwise the game requires no skill only luck.
This discussion has been closed.