They have counters!

Replies

  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.
    It's about calling a team balanced when it can be beaten, which is a very weird view on game balance.

    Argument: X team can be beaten so it's fine to leave it as it is. If a team can be beaten, then it's balanced.

    Reality: X team can ONLY be beaten by very specific characters. Any team that doesn't include these characters can't be used in Arena. The whole game suffers from a lack of diversity.

    Zaul could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team that relies on Assists/TM gain/Counter

    Chaze could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no mass/regular dispell.

    ZVader could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no cleanse.

    Wiggs could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without a pre-taunter.

    Evasion teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any player that had poor RNG.

    Poe teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without Poe.

    Barris/healing teams could be beaten but still pushed out of the meta any team without Sidious.

    CAN BE BEATEN =/= BALANCED

    If you think so, you have very poor knowledge in game design, game balance, and poor basic logic.

    Ironically, since Baze and Chirrut are good at
    - Inflicting debuffs and dispelling buffs on the enemy team
    - Cleansing debuffs and giving buffs to your team

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.

    You sir get it.

    People around here have very little understanding of balance and it shows with the excuse being well "they have counters"

    It's like saying the 96 Chicago bulls weren't stacked with talent and better than everyone else because they lost 10 games in the normal season but they were beat so they weren't stacked with better players.


    Just because something has a counter don't mean it's balanced and a lot of people can't grasp that concept around here
  • leef
    13068 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:

    also correct ;)

    Would you be more at ease with the term: "More powerful, useful and versatile than most, if not all, other toons" instead of OP? And with counters, off course, since it is the title of the thread!

    i'm fine with that, both with the wording and them actually being it.
    As long as a character/duo is beatable with multiple teams that don't have to use the same character/duo i'm totally fine with characters/duo's being plain better than the rest. When you don't have to use a specific character/duo, nor have to avoid a specific character/duo, i don't see a problem. Luckely offence is made rather easy in this game, so even if characters/duo's are more powerfull, they won't prevent players who don't want / can't use them from getting top ranks.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • zhtd17
    810 posts Member
    Imagine that DN can use annihilate without cool down and ignores taunts, he could knock out any toon at the very start of the battle, would he be unbeatable? No, would he have counters? Yes (ab, stun and DN), would he be op? Of course yes, can you say that he's balanced?
    The truth is chaze are op to the moon and back, although they are beatable but they make the game worse. Most teams in top 20 of my shard are using chaze, you see Zaul+chaze , wiggs+chaze, Rex+chaze, DN+chaze etc..
  • Nikoms565
    11803 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:

    also correct ;)

    Would you be more at ease with the term: "More powerful, useful and versatile than most, if not all, other toons" instead of OP? And with counters, off course, since it is the title of the thread!

    i'm fine with that, both with the wording and them actually being it.
    As long as a character/duo is beatable with multiple teams that don't have to use the same character/duo i'm totally fine with characters/duo's being plain better than the rest. When you don't have to use a specific character/duo, nor have to avoid a specific character/duo, i don't see a problem. Luckely offence is made rather easy in this game, so even if characters/duo's are more powerfull, they won't prevent players who don't want / can't use them from getting top ranks.

    The only reason I don't like it is that it makes too many teams the same.

    What I mean by that is, there are a variety of tanks, a variety of de-buffers, a variety of healers, a variety of attackers, a variety of cleansers - but if you have two characters that are better than every other hero in those categories, no one needs to run anyone else. Why run Shore if you can run Baze, who is Shore + more damage + counter + AoE debuff? Why run Rex, when you can run Chirry - Rex + Heal + counter + more dps? Why run any other healer other than Chaze? Why run any other Tank other than Baze? There's simply no reason to - so there is no variety in arena - which leads to no variety in GW.

    Incidentally, the odd part, is that is the opposite of EA/CG typically does. Historically, characters have had strengths but you had to sacrifice something. With Chaze, you get all the good with comparatively few weaknesses.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • DarthR244D
    292 posts Member
    The problem with the OP cries is because all toons have counters is the "nerf" you need. Toons all have counters to match whatever abilities they have. That is how the game should be. The real cries should be around mods. You can't counter someone who has better mods by chance. Even if you spend a lot of money on mods there is no guarantee you can get enough 20+ speed mods to compete with some people. Because Speed is all that matters. That is where the game needs a huge rework. To make the game more balanced.
  • It's a little like this. America has one of the largest armies in the world, if not best (lets not get into it). But because people have found ways to maneuver around it now and again and counter it then it's okay to live in an impoverished third world country with access to nothing.

    That is a lot of hyperbole, I know. But has @Nikoms565 is pointing out, and others, Chaze impoverishes the arena. DN has definitely taken on a solid role in the Arena, but he can basically be slotted in too. I've seen a few Chaze, DN, GK teams. That's A LOT OF ABILITIES and you still can slot in another toon.

    These comps have the abilities of three teams built into them. Meanwhile, Pheonix squadron? Crickets. And this Trooper pass? Nah. Krennic AND Dt are where?

    And, lets be honest, Chaze was released with the ridiculous tournaments -- impossible to get by 99.5% of us for months and Baze is still a Beach to get.... The entire R1 team has bad gamer juju attached to them and little has been done to address it.
    #AcolyteShootsTwice
  • ShaolinPunk
    3484 posts Moderator
    Those who want to be spoon-fed their 'victories' don't realize they are in fact slaves, and their 'victory' is a deception of idleness. Victory costs mental energy and effort. The warrior doesn't complain; the warrior fights until they achieve true victory.
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • DarthSalsa
    171 posts Member
    The real problem with chaze, DN, and GK is they are so safe and generic.
    You can play on in every team without penalties
  • ShaolinPunk
    3484 posts Moderator
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    The only reason I don't like it is that it makes too many teams the same.

    What I mean by that is, there are a variety of tanks, a variety of de-buffers, a variety of healers, a variety of attackers, a variety of cleansers - but if you have two characters that are better than every other hero in those categories, no one needs to run anyone else. Why run Shore if you can run Baze, who is Shore + more damage + counter + AoE debuff? Why run Rex, when you can run Chirry - Rex + Heal + counter + more dps? Why run any other healer other than Chaze? Why run any other Tank other than Baze? There's simply no reason to - so there is no variety in arena - which leads to no variety in GW.

    Incidentally, the odd part, is that is the opposite of EA/CG typically does. Historically, characters have had strengths but you had to sacrifice something. With Chaze, you get all the good with comparatively few weaknesses.

    Shore can grant crit immunity and heal; Baze doesn't. Shore also can choose to taunt. Baze only renews his taunt under 2 situations, and if you don't have Chirrut, only under one situation that you can't control. Baze's retribution can also be a liability, when he grants stealth and TM to sith on a counter, for instance, or when he crits Biggs, allowing Biggs to just go a bunch of times in a row, or when his counter ends up healing the enemy (see Zarriss), or when he gives TM to the entire other team (by hitting a crit against a Rex lead), or......

    Rex gives cleanse + tenacity up + tm gain. Chirrut either cleanses OR gives tenacity up. Guess which one is more effective against a debuff heavy team?

    As far as healing, Chirrut is health equalization only, unless you are running additional rebels or you are cleansing. Healing in arena isn't a huge deal anyway, but there's always Zarriss, who combines health equalization with healing, with passive healing for your entire team (instead of Rebels only getting a HOT when critically hit, everyone recovers 20% health when critically hit) and a passive cleanse, and group healing on basic, and a much larger health/protection pool than Chirrut.
  • Those who want to be spoon-fed their 'victories' don't realize they are in fact slaves, and their 'victory' is a deception of idleness. Victory costs mental energy and effort. The warrior doesn't complain; the warrior fights until they achieve true victory.

    LOL. Even when you step onto the Dojang for Tae Kwon Do a 'warrior' mentality is utterly wrong. And when I'm sitting my ace here at work, where lateral thinking and a cool head are key - a warrior mentality is probably a fast way to wrong side of a tazer! In SW-GoH, only the way of the wallet warrior withstands whatever comes it's way.
    #AcolyteShootsTwice
  • The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Who's saying that? Lots of posters on this thread are stating they can beat chaze teams, but that they still think they're op because they do too much and do it too well. What you're doing is putting words into people's mouths..
  • Boreas
    508 posts Member
    I think people are missing the real problem when they try to address op toons and their counters. Imho, the real problem is people using every character available together in the same team. Boba was redesigned/reworked to counter rebels, but rebel teams started to use Boba too, same with EP, which was designed as anti-rebel. was used by rebel teams. Same goes with Darth Nihilus, under Rex lead, really? or GK with Zaul. The problem stays that some op toons are also used by their counters in the same team, which blocks "counter" status. If faction tags and alignments played a role, counters would work. I guess the devs have seen this and the game is heading towards that direction, R2 zeta which favors only light-side characters is a step towards it. I guess the system in Places of Power event is a perfect solution for it. teams in tune with leaders tags should have high morale ( + 25% to all stats, mixed teams built with the same alignment (light/dark) should go neutral (whatever their stats are) and teams formed by characters from opposite alignment (light/dark) should have low morale (-25% to all stats). That way no one could use (they may if they want, but with a sacrifice) Nihilus with Chaze or Zaul with GK. So there will be balance and counters will be counters. Otherwise people will try to exploit the abilities of characters and no matter what the devs design, counters won't work.
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    pchen3082 wrote: »
    I don't get it, what's wrong with it?

    It's simple. Nobody takes in consideration how good those counters actually are as standalone toons, how much they bring to the team besides countering other toon or how available are they. Their simple existance is reason enough to put everything you want, even gamebreaking, into a toon. The fact the GSpy exist is enough to Say Baze is not OP.
    Honestly, the ones actually talking logic and sense in these forums are few and far in between. There's this witch burning effort against anyone who speaks the truth (or for debate's sake, share their opinion) against the general conformity.

    For example, there's the idea floating around that 'nerfs are bad'. To me that is like saying 'logic is bad' or you shouldn't mow your lawn. Irrational thinking.

    As far as 'they have counters!' thing goes, what you said is pretty much true. This is generally the go-to (weak) argument for characters, duos and comps that are overtuned, overpowered or flat out broken.
    Don't you just love this response:" they have counters" ?
    It is a magical one, the answer to all possible complains about any toon, no matter how OP. Try it, it's fun!
    For example: the toon is over used in the arena.
    Yeah but he has counters!
    or
    They have half of the abilities on the game in just 2 toons. Yeah but they have counters!

    It works for anything!, 3 little words have just made everything you posted invalid :)

    Gosh, another of these.

    @BentWookiee please close this, before the troll dies of overeating.
    Why? He has a point. Engage it.
  • Nikoms565
    11803 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.

    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make an objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.
    +50000

    One of the greatest posts, if not the greatest, I have read on all these forums. Please comment on the thread here when you get the time: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/108915/chaze-a-reasonable-look-at-the-most-overtuned-duo-in-game/p1
  • danflorian1984
    986 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Even though I posted my profile 2 times in this thread to prove that my supposed inability to beat Chaze was not what prompted it seems people are still going with this narrative. What world we live in, when "They have counters!" isn't enough and you must resort to " You complain because you cannot beat him/them". I am afraid that sooner or later the supreme argument will follow:
    "You can't play the game"
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Even though I posted my profile 2 times in this thread to prove that my supposed inability to beat Chaze was not what prompted this thread it seems people are still going with this narrative. What world we live in, when "They have counters!" isn't enough and you must resort to " You complain because you cannot beat him/them". I am afraid that sooner or later the supreme argument will follow:
    "You can't play the game"
    Already have you beat on that one: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/comment/1055922/#Comment_1055922
  • zhtd17
    810 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.

    +1
  • The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    In addition to the above -- those of us looking at the 'Chaze' experience objectively are not asking for a Nerf. You can't do that to people who've invested in them, we get that. But you have a problem with so many of the recent releases not being able to hold a candle to Chaze. Nihilus and the Sith Pass (could be a band name?!) were great, they matched and countered Chaze and already had a counter to themselves with Rex, not really even needing R2.

    As good as he is, Nihilus plus SA and SiT are still not has rounded as Chaze. They could likely kill chaze on offense - 3-1. It's a decent match up ...... But the question that's being raised here is... what about the whole wide selection of other toons. So, so , so... many of them are so far down the rungs that they're not even part of the current game. They're fillers to accomplish faction events.

    If you create an extremely powerful, dynamic, duo with a broad kit, and they require extremely specific toons to counter, don't be surprised at extreme backlash.
    #AcolyteShootsTwice
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    Waez wrote: »
    Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.
    It's about calling a team balanced when it can be beaten, which is a very weird view on game balance.

    Argument: X team can be beaten so it's fine to leave it as it is. If a team can be beaten, then it's balanced.

    Reality: X team can ONLY be beaten by very specific characters. Any team that doesn't include these characters can't be used in Arena. The whole game suffers from a lack of diversity.

    Zaul could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team that relies on Assists/TM gain/Counter

    Chaze could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no mass/regular dispell.

    ZVader could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no cleanse.

    Wiggs could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without a pre-taunter.

    Evasion teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any player that had poor RNG.

    Poe teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without Poe.

    Barris/healing teams could be beaten but still pushed out of the meta any team without Sidious.

    CAN BE BEATEN =/= BALANCED

    If you think so, you have very poor knowledge in game design, game balance, and poor basic logic.

    Ironically, since Baze and Chirrut are good at
    - Inflicting debuffs and dispelling buffs on the enemy team
    - Cleansing debuffs and giving buffs to your team

    The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.
    +1 also another great post.
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    The game is not at all likely to become balanced (if you mean any squad can play any squad and have a chance to win.) The best we can hope for is that there are several options and sub-options within those configurations.

    Accept it or hate, the main choice in the game is play the toons you want to play and do alright. Or play the toons that make you competetive and strive to be somewhere in the top. There are many facets to the game so you can probably play some squads somewhere that you like as a fan, but everything takes a long time to develop.

    From the perspective of I want my favorite toons to have a chance against anyone, it will never be fair.

    Zaul had put a serious hamper on having more diversity into being in the top 20 in arena. With the addition of R2 we are in better shape than we've been in a long time.
  • pac0naut
    3236 posts Member
    Wow. I haven't frequented the forums in a moment. If I may add a few things:

    1: I'm a spender. I did NOT get Chaze the first time around maxed out. I got enough for an unlock on each, took one look at their kit and swore to myself I would figure out a way to get around them and not use them. I knew they were OP from the jump.

    2: They became sort of F2P so I went all in on them. Finally got them to 7* max gear. I run the current cookie cutter meta with Rex / GK / Chaze / zDN. Why? Because it works and really, as a former Zaul / Zavage / EP / DN / GK user it was getting tough on OFFENSE to crack that. You have to rely on way too much RNG such as Zaul going first and landing Daze on your cleansers, otherwise, it falls apart fast.

    Now, I said those two things so there's no confusion as to where I am coming from: There are no two characters in the game with synergy like them. None. Not Wiggs, not Sith, none. Their kit is ridiculous OP and I think we knew it from the jump but didn't realize HOW effective they were. There is legitimately nothing that is MEANT to counter Chaze specifically. It doesn't mean that they can't be, but there's nothing specific to them. Sith with heal block may be as close as it gets, but even then.....meh. It becomes too RNG reliant. I'm definitely NOT saying to nerf them because I don't believe in calling for nerfs (look at poor Yoda), but there has to be something else coming to get rid of the triple cleanse / Chaze combo.
    Meanwhile, down on the farm....
  • ShaolinPunk
    3484 posts Moderator
    LOL. Even when you step onto the Dojang for Tae Kwon Do a 'warrior' mentality is utterly wrong. And when I'm sitting my ace here at work, where lateral thinking and a cool head are key - a warrior mentality is probably a fast way to wrong side of a tazer! In SW-GoH, only the way of the wallet warrior withstands whatever comes it's way.

    Or the supremely disciplined. ;) Yeah, it's a bit much for some people, but maybe a good provocation to look at with regard to what we ARE thinking if we join in 'nerf-train' criticism.

    Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, I thought he was saying "to spite those of you who say 'but they have countrers' there are some heroes that need to be nerfed."

    I still take the stance that we have more variety than ever, and there are more workarounds. Remember the 'dodge Meta'? That's as close as I ever felt to being locked into a team (although there were technically two because you could be Dooku or Old Ben.)
    Who's saying that? Lots of posters on this thread are stating they can beat chaze teams, but that they still think they're op because they do too much and do it too well. What you're doing is putting words into people's mouths..

    True, lots of replies here are speaking my mind for me, but see above in this reply, I may or may not have misunderstood the OP, which is what I was responding to. Sorry I didn't quote him for more clarification on my who my audience was. There are plenty of "nerf this hero" threads all over the place (especially today for some reason).
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.
    You and I totally dig the same things. I also can take 1st any time in my shard, though truly there are fewer using Chaze combos in the top 20, and that is a shard-personality thing (each shard is different). R2 May change that, but my shard hasn't indicated it yet.

    I don't haze Chaze up and running because someone here (myself) didn't care to try that hard in tourneys, only to find out they were the bomb later (not sure they're still the bomb), so I'm by no means defending them from any sort of emotional respect.

    You must be fighting Chaze +R2 teams, which, again, I haven't yet faced. Standard Zaul variations have stomped any Chaze+Wiggs combos since the Rise of the Sith for me. You can look up my swgoh profile to look up some of my teams. But you gotta remember each shard is different so what works for one person won't work for all (unless it was like that whole dodge meta again).

    My all-time favorite Chaze killing team was GK, Zarriss, B2, Aayla, and JKA. That's where I ended caring about Chaze. Throw zDN in there now, and there's double-stompers on the Chaze lucky Char.

    If we're talking about them +R2, that may be a thing and I'm just late to that party. But I still love you and think we see stuff pretty much the same. XD
    In addition to the above -- those of us looking at the 'Chaze' experience objectively are not asking for a Nerf. You can't do that to people who've invested in them, we get that. But you have a problem with so many of the recent releases not being able to hold a candle to Chaze. Nihilus and the Sith Pass (could be a band name?!) were great, they matched and countered Chaze and already had a counter to themselves with Rex, not really even needing R2.

    As good as he is, Nihilus plus SA and SiT are still not has rounded as Chaze. They could likely kill chaze on offense - 3-1. It's a decent match up ...... But the question that's being raised here is... what about the whole wide selection of other toons. So, so , so... many of them are so far down the rungs that they're not even part of the current game. They're fillers to accomplish faction events.

    If you create an extremely powerful, dynamic, duo with a broad kit, and they require extremely specific toons to counter, don't be surprised at extreme backlash.

    Again, I must've misunderstood the OP. As for the whole wide selection, I'm guessing it's a hugely temperamental puzzle no matter how the devs tweak it. The Veers rework, the Boba rework, the Maul Zeta, those are all examples of what we're looking for. So, yes, I am guilty of saying, "things aren't that bad, just try another team." But that statement is rarely well-received.
    **Please tag me (@ShaolinPunk) if you need assistance.** My Collection. . My Poll.. Ally Code: 332-622-913 Discord: shaolin_punk#2107
  • Gamorrean
    2311 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    "Scissors is OP, nerf scissors!"
    "Just throw rock."
    "I don't want to throw rock, I like paper! The game won't be balanced until paper can beat scissors!"

    That's you, that is.

    finally, someone talking sense. OP if your droids or Mob Enforcer can't beat Chaze that's your problem, not Chaze users'.

    You do realize that some of us that beat them everyday and finish #1 can still objectively think that Chaze are still overpowered, right?

    i've lost my fair share of battles vs chaze and i don't think they're overpowered.

    True, but you don't believe that any toon is OP :wink:

    also correct ;)

    Would you be more at ease with the term: "More powerful, useful and versatile than most, if not all, other toons" instead of OP? And with counters, off course, since it is the title of the thread!

    i'm fine with that, both with the wording and them actually being it.
    As long as a character/duo is beatable with multiple teams that don't have to use the same character/duo i'm totally fine with characters/duo's being plain better than the rest. When you don't have to use a specific character/duo, nor have to avoid a specific character/duo, i don't see a problem. Luckely offence is made rather easy in this game, so even if characters/duo's are more powerfull, they won't prevent players who don't want / can't use them from getting top ranks.

    The only reason I don't like it is that it makes too many teams the same.

    What I mean by that is, there are a variety of tanks, a variety of de-buffers, a variety of healers, a variety of attackers, a variety of cleansers - but if you have two characters that are better than every other hero in those categories, no one needs to run anyone else. Why run Shore if you can run Baze, who is Shore + more damage + counter + AoE debuff? Why run Rex, when you can run Chirry - Rex + Heal + counter + more dps? Why run any other healer other than Chaze? Why run any other Tank other than Baze? There's simply no reason to - so there is no variety in arena - which leads to no variety in GW.

    Incidentally, the odd part, is that is the opposite of EA/CG typically does. Historically, characters have had strengths but you had to sacrifice something. With Chaze, you get all the good with comparatively few weaknesses.
    This. So much this! +100 :)
  • Gamorrean
    2311 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.
    Also this! You are a wise man ;)
  • Juex777 wrote: »
    The game is not at all likely to become balanced (if you mean any squad can play any squad and have a chance to win.) The best we can hope for is that there are several options and sub-options within those configurations.

    Accept it or hate, the main choice in the game is play the toons you want to play and do alright. Or play the toons that make you competetive and strive to be somewhere in the top. There are many facets to the game so you can probably play some squads somewhere that you like as a fan, but everything takes a long time to develop.

    From the perspective of I want my favorite toons to have a chance against anyone, it will never be fair.

    Zaul had put a serious hamper on having more diversity into being in the top 20 in arena. With the addition of R2 we are in better shape than we've been in a long time.

    Zaul is strong but is fine becuase his only can be play with sith. DN, GK, Chaze,Rex do not had that restriction they no have any punishment
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.

    I don't think anyone disagrees they're elite and the best duo and top at the many things they do. The Sith pass was incredibly crippling to most other factions and crushed much of the game...yet Chaze based teams walked through it like it was nothing. Think how bad most G11 builds get curb stomped by zDM Sith squads.

    However....what's a Dev supposed to do with feedback that:

    1. They're too strong but,
    2. The folks saying they're too strong beat them "easily" every day

    If I'm a dev, why would I upset a lot of Chaze users when it appears they are merely the best or strong, but not really outliers that NEED an adjustment.

    How would one make a concrete, factual argument that they should be nerfed? There's also some evidence against them being OP outliers - the GG report has them as only the 4/5th most used toons in rank 1 squads and a long ways off from DN's 78% usage and pretty far behind GK's 50% usage. That's going up for sure due to ownership, but still they do not stick out there in usage.

    I personally think they have too much in their kit, especially Baze, but I don't see how you can make a fact-based argument to a dev that all the pain that a nerf brings with (bad reviews, bad social media, refund requests, players leaving the game,etc.) it is necessary.
  • Jimbob
    62 posts Member
    Boreas wrote: »
    I think people are missing the real problem when they try to address op toons and their counters. Imho, the real problem is people using every character available together in the same team. Boba was redesigned/reworked to counter rebels, but rebel teams started to use Boba too, same with EP, which was designed as anti-rebel. was used by rebel teams. Same goes with Darth Nihilus, under Rex lead, really? or GK with Zaul. The problem stays that some op toons are also used by their counters in the same team, which blocks "counter" status. If faction tags and alignments played a role, counters would work. I guess the devs have seen this and the game is heading towards that direction, R2 zeta which favors only light-side characters is a step towards it. I guess the system in Places of Power event is a perfect solution for it. teams in tune with leaders tags should have high morale ( + 25% to all stats, mixed teams built with the same alignment (light/dark) should go neutral (whatever their stats are) and teams formed by characters from opposite alignment (light/dark) should have low morale (-25% to all stats). That way no one could use (they may if they want, but with a sacrifice) Nihilus with Chaze or Zaul with GK. So there will be balance and counters will be counters. Otherwise people will try to exploit the abilities of characters and no matter what the devs design, counters won't work.

    This sounds sensible in principle but think it would actually make arena less diverse. People would only run whole factions and whichever faction came up trumps at a given time, everyone would use.
  • Waez
    286 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    The real statement people are making is not, "Nerf this overpowered hero" it's actually, "Nerf everything I don't have so I can win." Don't they see the circular problem that creates? It's beyond any one individual. Like truth, resources (in-gamg and out) are not relative, and sit on a plain above our personal situation.

    Yeah, sorry - normally I agree with you. But I and many others weighing in, finish at the top of our arena shards and can beat Chaze fairly easily - and do so several times every single day.

    Many of us are attempting to make objective points. It's those who have Chaze or have paid for him that are the ones defending them from an emotional, self-centered perspective.

    If you want to look at it objectively, feel free to list the attacker/tank combos you would prefer to have in your lineup instead of Chaze. I'll hang up and listen for the crickets.

    I don't think anyone disagrees they're elite and the best duo and top at the many things they do. The Sith pass was incredibly crippling to most other factions and crushed much of the game...yet Chaze based teams walked through it like it was nothing. Think how bad most G11 builds get curb stomped by zDM Sith squads.

    However....what's a Dev supposed to do with feedback that:

    1. They're too strong but,
    2. The folks saying they're too strong beat them "easily" every day

    If I'm a dev, why would I upset a lot of Chaze users when it appears they are merely the best or strong, but not really outliers that NEED an adjustment.

    How would one make a concrete, factual argument that they should be nerfed? There's also some evidence against them being OP outliers - the GG report has them as only the 4/5th most used toons in rank 1 squads and a long ways off from DN's 78% usage and pretty far behind GK's 50% usage. That's going up for sure due to ownership, but still they do not stick out there in usage.

    I personally think they have too much in their kit, especially Baze, but I don't see how you can make a fact-based argument to a dev that all the pain that a nerf brings with (bad reviews, bad social media, refund requests, players leaving the game,etc.) it is necessary.

    - Balance doesn't necessarily comes from win rate or play rate. If you play League of Legends, you may have seen this when LeBlanc was nerfed then reworked (which was a long time ago, 1 or 2 years ago).
    Basically LeBlanc was a high-damage mage that could execute a very quick combo: marking an enemy, then teleport on him, deal damage, and instantly go back to where you teleported from. This was a high damage burst that could not be countered. Despite the fact that she was sitting at 46-47% win rate (which is extremely bad in LoL), Riot decided to nerf her, to reduce her oppressiveness. All that to say that a game pattern can be unhealthy, even though numbers say it isn't. Playing against Chaze is frustrating. They cleanse everything, dispell everything, deal huge damage and inflict lots of debuffs.

    - You're missing one of the points here: They narrow down the possibilities in Arena. By having overloaded kits, they essentially become several toons in 2. Just like Kenobi. This is bad for the game, as it stops diversity and pigeonholes players into specific choices.

    - Many people here try to make objective points, which is admitting that the game is simply more complex than "I can win against them, or I can't". They are leaving their own personal bias behind, and that's how you should proceed when talking about balance.

    - Finally, please realize that they will be nerfed when another power creep hero is introduced. The reason why they're doing it that way is obvious; Money. But it's terrible for the game. I'm just going to c/p a previous answer of mine regarding this:

    "The reason is simple: $$$

    With power creep instead of nerfs, the devs can keep cashing in the sweet money they get from people who either pay for the character or pay for his gear/level/abilities.

    If they nerf a character, you don't need to pay for a shiny new toy that can counter the current meta.

    Somehow everyone agrees with that. The official reason is that it "would be unfair to those who paid for the character". So everyone assumes they would lose a very good character with no compensation.

    The thing is, when EA introduce a power creep new hero that counters the current meta, the previously OP characters become worthless too, just like if they were nerfed.

    The only difference is that if you had nerfed them, more teams could have appeared and became viable. There would be more diversity.
    With the current power creep/Counter to what's OP method, the new meta becomes the new character. There's no diversity.

    See R2: You slap him on a Rex lead and it counters ZMaul. Nothing new. Still Rex and ZMaul (for a time) in the Arena.

    If ZMaul has been nerfed, we could have seen more teams: FO, Resistance, even Phoenix. More Jedi too.

    See Shoretrooper: They could have nerfed Wiggs, and many teams would have been more viable. But instead, they created Shoretrooper to stop Wiggs. What happened? Shore was put in Rex or Wiggs team, and there was no increase in diversity."

    Hope that sums it up. Many people here show some classic misconceptions of game balance. EA and CG have been pretty terrible at it, honestly. They must have grown accustomed to their point of view, which unfortunately only serves the whales and the shareholders of EA.
This discussion has been closed.