Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beating them now brings no joy. Don't get me wrong, I like all the turns in battles today as compared to the Poe days, but the constant taunts pulling focus fire, the foresight spam from GK, the heal / equalize from Chirrut bringing near dead characters to near full health requiring more attacks to kill, the constant counter attacks...it's just a bad fight.
The lesson part though comes in that they break the tactical game - that's the element of the game where have to choose characters to matchup properly with the opponent. I'll give a specific example comparing Troopers and using a good, but not the best, team to face in arena: Chaze + Wiggs + R2.
Now, facing this team you want the following:
1. Pre-taunt for the triple shot
2. Passive mid-round taunter to take the Chirrut bombs after Wiggs triple and the heavy single shot from Biggs and Wedge
3. Healer for the damage dealt out
4. Heavy damage attacker to actually kill stuff
5. An AOE enemy buff remover for the R2 smoke screen so you aren't pinned on Baze
6. Cleanse / ten up to remove the burn / stun and / or prevent burn / stun from R2
These are the tactical considerations you need to evaluate when putting a team together.
Now let's look at Troopers as an example and compare them to Chaze and what they do:
Snowtrooper: Satisfies (4) above
Shoretrooper: Satisfies (1) and (3) above ... and partially solves (2) with Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper: Along with Shore, kinda satisfied (2) above in that between the 2 you can have good mid-round taunt capability for damage cover
Deathtrooper: Satisfies (5) above as well as (4) with the deathmark
Veers: Satisfies (4) above with the assist call and contingently he handles (3) if you kill something
So between 5 characters, no one does 6, only generally each one has a role, maybe 2 or so at most - Shore is pretty balanced in that he has multiple skills, but is slow and also low damage, so he's a tactical tool with tradeoffs.
Now let's look at 1-6 above through the Chaze lens:
Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)
That's as clear an example as I can make on why a Chaze abomination shouldn't be introduced in to the game again. They break the actual "game" of GoH in that you don't have to think about constructing a team in any specific manner relative to your opponent. They actually outskill all 5 recently revamped troopers. Troopers should be a team they look to create more of - different skills, working together, needs tactical decisions to be made in order to matchup to the opponent's strength and weaknesses.
Again to reiterate, don't nerf Chaze - they are not unbeatable - but let's work on making this a game again that involves tradeoffs when selecting teams and heroes relative to your opponent.
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I know that wasn't your intention but this is all that many will take from this.
Or a hate Chaze post
They're unbeatable, sure. But that is not the reason why they are gamebreaking, its the multiple kits they bring when paired together brought us to this "why bother using 5 toon that synergized with each other as a team to win when you can use chaze that can do better than anyone and fill the last 3 spots with anything for sneeze and giggles?" state of the game.
I'm all for returning the game to the pre chaze condition but help me understand on this one.
The outrage would die down eventually
Absolutely don't want a nerf! It's totally unnecessary. I just enjoy the tactical part of the game and constructing teams and Chaze breaks that and condenses variety. Others will disagree, they like everything all in one combo, don't have to switch mods vs. opponent because you have to switch squads, or don't have to build multiple squads with multiple viable mod sets, they hold through all iterations of meta... - there's a ton of efficiency gain by using Chaze. There's huge benefits and "investing" in Chaze will actually save you a lot of work, effort and time / $ cost as a result. There's a viable argument for more Chaze types down the road, but that drops a deuce on the actual game part of the ... game.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
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I think nerf should only be done in severe circumstances where it creates truly unbeatable heroes WITHOUT also having those heroes - basically forcing mirror fights or close to it (shuffling 1 or 2 heroes if the core 2/3 is necessary really isn't variety). Right now the Chaze / R2 / GK + x teams are pretty heavy on my LB and have been for a few days. DN is a common 5th - holds well on D and many players have a hard time or flat out can't beat it. These are players with zDM at their disposal, GK - veterans on a Nov '15 shard that have $ and aren't scrubs - not Krakens but very viable players. I'm beating it though at a 70%+ rate with zDV, SiT, SA, EP, and DT ... so not even using any of the top 5 most used characters on GG and not using an OP maul leader or a zKylo / zSO unkillable type toon. I couldn't in good conscious say it should be nerfed if it can lose at a high rate to that - I don't think that's fair to players and nerfing should only be in extreme circumstances.
But I agree with your theme and i would argue that chaze actually mess up both the 'strategic' (planning) and the 'tactical' (in battle gameplay) elements of the game.
It's tricky on strategy vs. tactics and applying to a game the terms. I look at strategy as the larger overall goal and how I will achieve that: Goal is I want to win and what main method will I use to accomplish that - TM removal, tanking / taunting, heal, heavy / fast DPS glass cannons etc. The tactical part is how I deploy my resources / toons to accomplish the broader goal and put them together as a unit to solve my opponent's puzzle.
They're still beatable tho, to break their annoying chain.. but maybe have to change the roster to achieve that. Human is always better that AI.
i see. The bolded part is where chase is running towards to. Most ppl saying chaze is beatable easily because they use chaze to beat it. Few use different toons, even that is also just a few toons to select.
Say your suggestion is applied, and it worked. There is another problem, they will be continued to prevail with new toons that supports them. R2 already bolster them to a certain degree, what will stop upcoming new/reworked toons from supporting them even further?
Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs.
"Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)"
Some factions STILL do not have a taunt, a cleanse, an enemy dispel or a combination of the above. These 2 characters however have access to nearly every strategic element in the game.
FO has no way to interact with enemy buffs and have somehwta limited cleanses, Clones cant taunt, night sisters...god help them they have none of the above, ewoks have no taunt and a limited dispel, empire lack a cleanse, sith have a circumstantial cleanse with oppress........ETC
Baze and Chirrut have all of the above with zero faction requirements.
Disagree.. at their golden era, they technically can beat everyone. Drennic, k2 cassian is so-so bcause they have same era with chaze and simply chaze outshine them.
I think this is a really great ideea.