Character Strategy: Obi-Wan Kenobi (Old Ben)

Replies

  • scuba
    12805 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.
  • zombiwan_kenobi
    427 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Ender22 wrote: »
    Maybe. But under CLS he'll be countering 50% of the time (can you counter if you evade?) which yeah he doesn't hit very hard, but will be applying evasion down.

    Unless he's stunned confused or whatever since he'll play most certainly last.
    50% counter chance isn't much reliable and only works with Luke lead.
    Anyway once he'll apply his mind tricks all opponents will have spent their entire kit so...

    Mind trick is only useful if used as fast as possible just like Boba special, but with Ben TM mechanics it won't ever happened. Only a QGJ lead could help but since he's now also rebel...
  • Jamesm
    863 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.

    You're right, derailed enough but just to answer your question no a stealthed sith with zaul will not fracture with adv up
  • SeeeD wrote: »
    @CG_Kozispoon a zeta pack in the shop pls

    This
  • Brownie
    298 posts Member
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    .
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    Read what i wrote. do any of those characters gain their buffs back when fracture expires?

    Why do you think Ben gains his taunt back when Fracture expires? Does his ability state that somewhere?

    Yes! When you dispel his taunt he gains taunt back.

    He gains his taunt back when his TAUNT expires, not when FRACTURE expires. Do you see the difference? Fracture does not allow you to gain buffs. You dont get those buffs back after Fracture disappears. Someone help me explain this PLEEEEEEEEEEASE!

    Again this is where thrawn being alone comes in to play. And how do you know he doesnt gain taunt after fracture dispels the first one (and after fracture ends) its a new ability.

    You're not getting it (go back to what I said about the two toons)...anyway you may be right on the new ability part, although it doesn't say that. Just saying it works differently than other current toons and if WAI, opens a can of worms on why those other toons work differently.
  • Brownie
    298 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.

    Thanks scuba, THAT was the answer I was looking for...
  • Finity
    309 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order (based on the swgoh.gg for the Fracture mechanic):
    1) Dispel all buffs
    2) Inflict Fracture
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Deal Damage 4 times

    With Savage:
    1) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    2) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage gains no buffs with fracture up
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    2) Inflict Fracture
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which happens after the fracture is applied. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a result of the DISPEL, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but this could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.
    Post edited by Finity on
    Love SWGOH and want to keep it great! YouTube: Reality Skewed Gamers
  • Brownie
    298 posts Member
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    Well said and thanks, although scuba barely beat you to it. Haha
  • Why not just make all the future abilities unavoidable? I see it coming new ability. Avoid unavoidable abilities. Try to balance better.
  • SGMiller87 wrote: »
    SGMiller87 wrote: »
    Drepd wrote: »
    they should add in the description that he dispels himself and gains taunt. Thats the only way he should be able to gain his taunt again if he is fractured or has any type of buff immunity on him.

    I don't see why people are obsessed with fracture, he'll loose his taunt and fracture prevents him from getting it again. Nothing's wrong with Ben tooltip or whatever.

    What is worrying me is more Old ben reworeked kit than its tooltip.

    Turn 1. Mind trick and then a tank who is still not taunting. No potency, terrible results most certainly.
    Turn 2. Finally he taunts, most certainly dispelled. Great a 1 turn taunt on a 4 turns CD... since no one is taunting you most certainly have lost one toon or two anyway.
    Turn 3 to 6 worthless basic spam while getting a potency up buff which is needed by absolutely no skill during 3 turns.

    So... Mind tricks happens still too late, will be resisted cause potency up on his basic is just ridiculous as opposed to Luke, Jyn, Bistan or Sidious own mechanics. Spamming a potency buff only buffing a single skill every 5s is a complete waste of design ressources.

    He's barely tanking still too late and his survivability takes a serious hit since evasion up is now missing. A 4 turns CD taunt is also not much reliable.

    Old ben isn't worse but his new kit seriously lacks of consistency.

    He could have automatically taunted whenever someone gets a debuff or go below 100% health or whatever. He could have started any fight with a 1 turn potency up buff the same way Cassian works and keep evasion up or whatever....

    I think you're making a weird assumption that he will use Mind tricks before his taunt. If he uses his taunt first, that completely changes your entire scenario.

    If he taunts first it could be even worse cause most dispells will certainly be available and using mind trick when every single opponent has had enough time to use his entire kit is completely worthless. Ability block once you don't have any more skill to use isn't a better scenario to me.

    Baze Malbus works fine cause he doesn't have to cast a worthless taunt skill and then can only rely upon his special.
    Same thing with Shoretrooper and his entire kit relies upon one single skill.

    Old ben is a mess and will fail at being both a tank and a debuffer. His kit is overcomplicated with poor results and AI won't help much there.

    I think you're making very definitive statements for having not used him. Also, you're again presenting a strange scenario. If his taunt is immediately dispelled, he immediately regains taunt. I think it's way too early to say for sure but calling him "a mess" seems incredibly aggressive.

    It sounds agressive cause you don't agree. To me it only sounds logical.
    No i may be wrong that's why i took enough time to explain what doesn't seem to work in his kit. There were people who kept thinking Kanan was **** awesome at launch. We all know how it ended. :/
  • One thing I have an issue with is like some of you suggested is the potency up on his basic but the reasoning is different. Notice on both CLS lead and OB mind tricks there is TM gain for resisted effects for all rebels. Would it not be more advantageous for mind tricks to be resisted then because of the TM gain for everybody? The potency up would reduce the possibility for that to happen.
  • Nith
    22 posts Member
    @CG_Kozispoon I can't really understand, though I'm watching over and over again the gif and read all the comments. After all, his ability will beat Fracture or not?
  • scuba
    12805 posts Member
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture
  • KevlarGolem
    74 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Guys, guys, guys. Youre getting caught up in the specifics of the mechanics, and missing the big picture, the message they intend to convey to you.

    They made it clear when they made Chaze/Wiggs OP. They made it clear when they somehow released 4 Rebels during the Empire rework (which didnt noticably improve Empire). They made it clear when they announced 3 Rebels for the new Hoth content and no other faction (including another Han which there are already 2 of). They're making it clear now by reworking (improving) several old Rebels that were so strong when they released near the beginning of the game that they are still very strong in certain areas of the game.

    Empire has one legitimately powerful arena character, and thats Thrawn. This gif once again has been provided to make the message clear.

    They keep trying to tell us but some of us are not getting the message:
    "You must play Rebels. If not, you are playing wrong, and you will lose."
    (Dex Corso in game. Formerly Til Dais)
  • Boba_The_Fetter
    3393 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Omg I love the animation for his taunt! The gif should have been Vader though right?
  • @CG_Kozispoon

    The description for the new version of "If You Strike Me Down" says that Old (Reinvigorated) Ben gets 5% Turn Meter "Whenever another Jedi or Rebel ally takes damage..."

    Does that count double if the ally is both? I.e. Does he gain 10% when Ezra and Kanan get hit?

    Does it count for damage he receives (and does it count twice for him as well)?

    Does it count for each hit the ally receives? I.e. If Fulcrum hits Ezra 5x does Old (R) Ben get 100% TM? If TM gains per hit, any chance that other characters who hit do damage multiple times will be counted correctly (I'm looking at you Rey)?
  • Jamesm
    863 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    So
    *Dispels taunt
    *fracture prevents second taunt

    When fracture goes away it allows the second taunt to appear. This would fit with both descriptions. I think its a visual bug that wouldn't happen in thrawn was not alone. Maybe I'm wrong though.
  • Muaddib
    563 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.

    Never seen that happen. Fracture also functions as a buff blocker. So dispel/buff immunity happens before damage would make the buff appear. It's possible, that after Fracture wears off, OB would get taunt back based on the wording, but that gif is bizarre as all get out.
  • Finity
    309 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    scuba wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    No, I didn't. I guess the end result of this is the same for the purposes of this since one is triggered on the damage and the other is on the dispel, but my means is to the end was incorrect if the gg listing is the correct order. I wasn't certain that the breakdown in the mechanics was the actual order so I went by the text directly. Good to know!
    Love SWGOH and want to keep it great! YouTube: Reality Skewed Gamers
  • First things first. He's as much of a rebel as commander Luke is a jedi (they aren't). Second, I don't get the jedi synergies, since this version of Obi-Wan has only encountered one jedi in his time and never helped Ezra in any battles (same aplies for the rebelion). Other than that, his kit does look amazing (I loved the animation of his new ability, btw :D). I may one day compile a list of these little things that annoy me in the game (cof cof, Ahsoka leadership for nighsisters).
  • Obi-Wan Kenobi (Old Ben)

    Old Ben Kenobi has been reworked with two unavoidable attacks and a new special ability: "Devoted Protector" which allows him to taunt at will, making him a threat from the very start of the battle.
    • Old Ben now has the Rebel category tag!

    BASIC: Elegant Form
    • Now grants Potency Up instead of Evasion Up
    • Omega upgrade is now: "This attack can't be Evaded and inflicts Evasion Down for 2 turns"

    SPECIAL 1: Mind Tricks
    • This ability can no longer be Evaded
    • Omega upgrade now grants "Jedi and Rebel allies gain 3% Turn Meter for each effect Resisted" in addition to previous bonus of "+15% Turn Meter Reduction Chance"

    SPECIAL 2: Devoted Protector
    fi4rsn1cd4uy.gif
    • New ability!
    • Fully upgraded, it reads: "Old Ben gains Taunt for 2 turns. When this Taunt expires, Old Ben gains Taunt for 1 turn. All allies gain Defense Up for 2 turns." (Cooldown 4)

    UNIQUE: If You Strike Me Down (REWORKED)
    • Ability reworked, and gained a new ZETA upgrade: "+2% Turn Meter Gain, +20% Heal, +20% Protection Recovery, and the first time Old Ben is defeated all allies gain 25% Turn Meter"
    • Fully upgraded, it reads: "Whenever another Jedi or Rebel ally takes damage, Old Ben gains 5% Turn Meter. The first time Old Ben is defeated, all allies gain Offense Up and Speed Up for 2 turns, recover 50% Health and 50% Protection, and gain 25% Turn Meter."

    General Strategy
    • Now tagged as a Rebel, Old Ben fits perfectly under leads such as Jyn Erso. He is able to provide AoE Offense Down, Ability Block, and Turn Meter Removal all in one ability, Mind Tricks.
    • We have changed the way his Unique, “If You Strike Me Down”, works, granting Old Ben 5% Turn Meter each time a Jedi or Rebel ally is damaged. Old Ben cannot be ignored as each strike against his allies gets him closer to ‘Mind Tricking’ you again.
    • Old Ben Gains a new Special Ability, “Devoted Protector”, that grants Old Ben a Taunt for 2 turns that if dispelled or simply runs out due to its duration, grants Old Ben another Taunt for 1 turn.

    wait..... he can dispell fracture? ****?
  • They keep trying to tell us but some of us are not getting the message:
    "You must play Rebels. If not, you are playing wrong, and you will lose."

    Sadly, that is what I got out of this rework as well. I was pumped that Jedi might be getting another taunter since I don't have GK yet and the only other option is Kanan, who is slower than dirt and only really makes a good tank when he's getting covered with dots.

    All I saw when I looked at the rework though was that one of the most iconic Jedi now has more synergy with rebels than Jedi. Kind of lame...but oh well...maybe Jedi will be getting some reworks soon.
  • Pyrefly
    1254 posts Member
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    i use thrawn in arena, and ive never had an opponent gain crit immunity from kenobi after being fractured, sobi dont think that goes against the way fracture works
    That's because the crit immunity is applied in response to the crit damage, which would happen after Fracture is already in place, blocking the buff.
    swgoh.gg profile: Pyrefly -- Check out my Galactic Power Tables and my TB Phase Info Tables !!
  • Brownie
    298 posts Member
    Jamesm wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    So
    *Dispels taunt
    *fracture prevents second taunt

    When fracture goes away it allows the second taunt to appear. This would fit with both descriptions. I think its a visual bug that wouldn't happen in thrawn was not alone. Maybe I'm wrong though.

    LOL NO...The taunt would still be there with Fracture up in this case. Because the second taunt doesn't get dispelled and is on Ben before the Fracture applies.

    I dont know whats so complicated about this...
  • Pyrefly
    1254 posts Member
    Jamesm wrote: »

    So
    *Dispels taunt
    *fracture prevents second taunt

    When fracture goes away it allows the second taunt to appear. This would fit with both descriptions. I think its a visual bug that wouldn't happen in thrawn was not alone. Maybe I'm wrong though.
    What you're missing is that the taunt is reapplied immediately after it's been dispelled, which is before Fracture is applied, which means that Fracture doesn't block it.
    swgoh.gg profile: Pyrefly -- Check out my Galactic Power Tables and my TB Phase Info Tables !!
  • Pyrefly
    1254 posts Member
    Magilla262 wrote: »

    Does that count double if the ally is both? I.e. Does he gain 10% when Ezra and Kanan get hit?

    Does it count for damage he receives (and does it count twice for him as well)?

    Does it count for each hit the ally receives? I.e. If Fulcrum hits Ezra 5x does Old (R) Ben get 100% TM? If TM gains per hit, any chance that other characters who hit do damage multiple times will be counted correctly (I'm looking at you Rey)?
    The first and third are good questions. The second is a no. The use of "another" means not OB. If it had said "All allies" then it would have included OB.
    swgoh.gg profile: Pyrefly -- Check out my Galactic Power Tables and my TB Phase Info Tables !!
  • Jamesm
    863 posts Member
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    So
    *Dispels taunt
    *fracture prevents second taunt

    When fracture goes away it allows the second taunt to appear. This would fit with both descriptions. I think its a visual bug that wouldn't happen in thrawn was not alone. Maybe I'm wrong though.

    LOL NO...The taunt would still be there with Fracture up in this case. Because the second taunt doesn't get dispelled and is on Ben before the Fracture applies.

    I dont know whats so complicated about this...

    You obviously don't get what I'm saying. I may be wrong but you might be too.
  • Ender22 wrote: »
    Maybe. But under CLS he'll be countering 50% of the time (can you counter if you evade?) which yeah he doesn't hit very hard, but will be applying evasion down.

    Unless he's stunned confused or whatever since he'll play most certainly last.
    50% counter chance isn't much reliable and only works with Luke lead.
    Anyway once he'll apply his mind tricks all opponents will have spent their entire kit so...

    Mind trick is only useful if used as fast as possible just like Boba special, but with Ben TM mechanics it won't ever happened. Only a QGJ lead could help but since he's now also rebel...

    He's still a Jedi.

    I said under CLS

    You can get him to go faster by means of ally assistance (like Baze. He auto taunts gets kit repeatedly and old Ben gains 5% tm each time of STHan with tm fill and tm fill when hit)

    We don't know Raid Hans rework. His stun right off the bat can help with enabling Old Ben to go faster.
  • Pyrefly
    1254 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    Jamesm wrote: »

    You obviously don't get what I'm saying. I may be wrong but you might be too.
    When Fracture is used, the order would be:
    • 1a: Dispel taunt.
    • 1b: Taunt immediately reapplies.
    • 2: Fracture is applied, blocking further buffs.
    • 3: Damage is applied.
    swgoh.gg profile: Pyrefly -- Check out my Galactic Power Tables and my TB Phase Info Tables !!
  • Ender22
    1194 posts Member
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    [quote=
    Magilla262 wrote: »
    @CG_Kozispoon

    Does it count for each hit the ally receives? I.e. If Fulcrum hits Ezra 5x does Old (R) Ben get 100% TM? If TM gains per hit, any chance that other characters who hit do damage multiple times will be counted correctly (I'm looking at you Rey)?

    I'm pretty sure when Rey does damage 4 times, it ends up causing Rex lead to work for each crit. Same for counter attack situations, each hit. So if Fulcrum hits 5x, it would cause Ben to gain 5x. For Ezra dual tag, idk. Though K2 gets bonuses for double tag
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