Character Strategy: Obi-Wan Kenobi (Old Ben)

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  • scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I use thrawn in arena, and ive never had an opponent gain crit immunity after being fractured, so i think that goes against the way fracture works
  • Muaddib
    563 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.

    Never seen that happen. Fracture also functions as a buff blocker. So dispel/buff immunity happen before damage would make the buff appear.
  • scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I use thrawn in arena, and ive never had an opponent gain crit immunity after being fractured, so i think that goes against the way fracture works
  • Varlie
    1286 posts Member
    Jamesm wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    Jamesm wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    They already said the gif was a bad example to use. I dont think hell be taunting during fracture. I'm guessing what happened was taunt-fractur (which dispels taunt)- Thrawns tm fills up since hes alone-fracture goes away triggering second taunt

    I know, I saw what Kozi said, was just getting more info from Scuba. But watch the gif closely, Ben has BOTH taunt and Fracture at the same time. Forget everything else. I use Thrawn all the time and I have never seen a toon with a buff and Fracture at the same time.

    I think its just happeneing to fast since thrawns alone. Just my opinion though. I dont think taunt will be there in a full team. Well see though.

    Its not happening too fast. Do you use Thrawn? If you do, you will notice no buffs exist along side Fracture. Period. The taunt persists during Fracture and then stays once Fracture expires. You can see Thrawns TM in the upper right corner. Anyway, none of this matters.

    Its either a bug they didn't catch and will fix it before deploying another gif or its WAI.

    I do in fact but when have you ever run thrawn alone. Its a combination of thrawn being alone and a toon that gains a buff as fraxture expires which is why it looks weird.

    lol, go play a solo match in any area with Thrawn vs Savage, or Thrawn vs Biggs, or Thrawn vs Zaul. I am willing to bet NONE of them gain a buff during Fracture. Slow the video down and watch. I bet you never see a buff. If I paused this gif, you would clearly see both Fracture and Taunt. This would not happen with any of the previous toons I mentioned.

    You are definitely correct. The issue here I think is the order of events. Let's compare the Thrawn vs Savage and Thrawn vs Old Ben. The key here - you are assuming that Thrawn's ability can be interrupted mid-attack.
    "Deal Special damage to target enemy 4 times, dispel all buffs on them, remove 50% Turn Meter, and inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn"

    If you break this down in order:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times
    2) Dispel all buffs
    3) remove 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture

    With Savage:
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - Savage will gain a number of buffs
    2) Dispel all buffs - all buffs are gone from Savage
    3) Remove 50% TM - Savage loses TM (this isnt damage being dealt)
    4) Fracture - Savage has fracture
    This is why Savage doesn't have a buff when fracture is used.

    With the new Old Ben
    1) Deal special damage 4 times - nothing
    2) Dispel all buffs - Taunt is removed from Ben, but Ben now regains it based on the conditions of his special
    3) remove 50% TM - Ben loses 50% TM
    4) Inflict Fracture
    Ben has taunt for 1 turn (instead of 2) and fracture at the same time.

    So characters like Savage and Biggs gain buffs as a result of DAMAGE, which is the first thing that seems to happen based on the wording of the ability. the dispel happens after, so the buffs are gone. Old Ben actually gets the Taunt back as a RESULT of the dispel, so this happens before the fracture applies.

    I can't say if this was the intended action, but that is what is happening and why it is different from Savage and Biggs. Just have to wait to see what Kozi says, but since could be intended as a counter to Thrawn's Fracture, and then it would be WAI based on the order of events as described in Thrawn's ability.

    You do realize that the order written in the ability is not the order things happen in game?
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. Dispel
    2. Fracture
    3. deal damage 4 times.
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    So
    *Dispels taunt
    *fracture prevents second taunt

    When fracture goes away it allows the second taunt to appear. This would fit with both descriptions. I think its a visual bug that wouldn't happen in thrawn was not alone. Maybe I'm wrong though.

    It appears that the reapplication of Taunt happens as an interrupt

    [*] Dispel (Taunt is removed)
    [*] Taunt Re-applies
    [*] Fracture
    [*] Deal damage 4 times

    Old Ben now has Taunt for 1 turn along with Fracture.
  • scuba
    12768 posts Member
    Muaddib wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Brownie wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Cardiff0 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    So it looks like if old ben has taunt and is fractured he will be taunting while fractured.

    This contradicts fracture because fracture means you cant gain buffs

    I don't disagree but since dispel happens first before fracture with the way things currently work he could have taunt with fracture.

    Every see b2 dispel stealth from sith with maul lead and put up buff immunity?
    the sith gains buff immunity and advantage at the same time. This is same situation
    1. dispel buff(s)
    2. opponet responds to the dispelled buff(s)
    3. debuff that prevents gaining buffs is applied
    4. damage is done

    To prevent the uproar and thousands of bug or is this WAI posts they just need to change Thrawn ability to apply fracture first then dispel.

    I figured this was the case but why wouldn't Savage or Biggs have buffs while Fractured? Why wouldnt a factured sith under Zaul have stealth occasionally?

    Don't want to derail this to much. Hopefully they look at this and make it right before release. However to answer your question you have to consider what triggers them gaining buffs.
    Savage and biggs gain buffs due to taking damage. Sith under zeta maul lead gain stealth due to taking crit damage (or dodge but fracture is unavoidable.)
    The order of operations for fracture are
    1. dispel
    2. apply fracture
    3. do damage

    So in the case of savage, biggs and sith stealth fracture is applied before damage is done.
    The issue with ben taunt is that he regains it when it is dispeled (no damage needed) which happens before fracture is applied.

    I have not tested it but I bet if thrawn fractures a stealthed sith under zeta maul lead they will be fractured with advantage up.

    Never seen that happen. Fracture also functions as a buff blocker. So dispel/buff immunity happen before damage would make the buff appear.

    I previously posted a pic and gif of a sith fractured with advantage.

    Yes fracture will stop any buff that occur because of taking damage.
    However fracture will not stop any buff that occurs because of losing a previous buff.

    That is why a taunting old ben will taunt and maul lead stealthed sith will have advantage when fractured because gaining those buffs have absolutely nothing to do with damage occurring but has to do with losing a previous buff.

    This has already been confirmed by the dev that it will work like this and also supported by how the current mechanics in the game work.

    Same thing will happen with B2, ISC, Commander luke, basically any character that dispels and then puts up a form of buff immunity (be it fracture or buff immunity) it will happen the same as long as the mechanics are set to dispel first then apply the debuff.
  • dad2my3
    1561 posts Member
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.
  • scuba
    12768 posts Member
    dad2my3 wrote: »
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.

    Except abilities almost never work in the order they are stated. Most abilities state deal damage first but rarely do that (see Maul daze issue) You can keep assuming that if you want but you would be wrong.
    The actual order is shown here (look at the actual quey) :
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    The order is:
    Dispel
    Fracture
    Remove tm
    Deal damage

    An ability description states all the things it could do not necessarily the order it will do them in.
  • Ender22
    1194 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    dad2my3 wrote: »
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.

    Except abilities almost never work in the order they are stated. Most abilities state deal damage first but rarely do that (see Maul daze issue) You can keep assuming that if you want but you would be wrong.
    The actual order is shown here (look at the actual quey) :
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    The order is:
    Dispel
    Fracture
    Remove tm
    Deal damage

    An ability description states all the things it could do not necessarily the order it will do them in.

    I've never seen a Maul daze issue. I run Rex against Maul teams daily, the daze ability never gives me TM.
  • scuba
    12768 posts Member
    Ender22 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    dad2my3 wrote: »
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.

    Except abilities almost never work in the order they are stated. Most abilities state deal damage first but rarely do that (see Maul daze issue) You can keep assuming that if you want but you would be wrong.
    The actual order is shown here (look at the actual quey) :
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    The order is:
    Dispel
    Fracture
    Remove tm
    Deal damage

    An ability description states all the things it could do not necessarily the order it will do them in.

    I've never seen a Maul daze issue. I run Rex against Maul teams daily, the daze ability never gives me TM.

    That is because they fixed to to have daze apply before damage. When Daze was added to his AoE it was orginally set to apply after damage.
  • Ender22
    1194 posts Member
    scuba wrote: »
    Ender22 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    dad2my3 wrote: »
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.

    Except abilities almost never work in the order they are stated. Most abilities state deal damage first but rarely do that (see Maul daze issue) You can keep assuming that if you want but you would be wrong.
    The actual order is shown here (look at the actual quey) :
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    The order is:
    Dispel
    Fracture
    Remove tm
    Deal damage

    An ability description states all the things it could do not necessarily the order it will do them in.

    I've never seen a Maul daze issue. I run Rex against Maul teams daily, the daze ability never gives me TM.

    That is because they fixed to to have daze apply before damage. When Daze was added to his AoE it was orginally set to apply after damage.

    Ohhhh you're not stating that the order is actually random, but that the ability description that we see in game doesn't state the order of events properly
  • scuba
    12768 posts Member
    Ender22 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    Ender22 wrote: »
    scuba wrote: »
    dad2my3 wrote: »
    So, if I'm understanding things correctly...

    The description of Thrawn's Fracture ability says that it does four things, in this order:

    1. Deal special damage to target enemy four times.
    2. Dispel all buffs on them.
    3. Remove 50% turn meter.
    4. Inflict Fracture until the start of Thrawn's next turn.

    Obi-Wan's ability grants him another taunt as soon as the initial one is dispelled. The dispel/reapplication happens during step two, meaning that the replacement taunt is in place during steps three and four.

    Except abilities almost never work in the order they are stated. Most abilities state deal damage first but rarely do that (see Maul daze issue) You can keep assuming that if you want but you would be wrong.
    The actual order is shown here (look at the actual quey) :
    https://swgoh.gg/characters/grand-admiral-thrawn/ability/fracture

    The order is:
    Dispel
    Fracture
    Remove tm
    Deal damage

    An ability description states all the things it could do not necessarily the order it will do them in.

    I've never seen a Maul daze issue. I run Rex against Maul teams daily, the daze ability never gives me TM.

    That is because they fixed to to have daze apply before damage. When Daze was added to his AoE it was orginally set to apply after damage.

    Ohhhh you're not stating that the order is actually random, but that the ability description that we see in game doesn't state the order of events properly

    Exactly. The order is actually set by the background mechanics of the ability. This can be seen on swgoh.gg. If it was set as the ability states intial aoe from maul would give a rex lead team crazy TM becuase the description is damage first than daze. In reality it is daze first than damage.
  • I dont want to ruin this but the taunt doesn't work the rework is good and all but old bens taunt doesn't work for anyone in my build. And most of the time it shows the taunt but the taunt doesn't work at all.
  • Has anyone been bold enough to drop a Zeta on the taunt and confirm that it will throw up another taunt even through Luke's Debuff?

    Cuz I'm heavily considering it, but 20 Zetas is a lot to drop on an experiment that may backfire...and one of my guild's biggest theorycrafters is swearing it won't work even despite Dev confirmation of Fracture Taunting.
    Porgatory demands fresh souls.
  • Has anyone been bold enough to drop a Zeta on the taunt and confirm that it will throw up another taunt even through Luke's Debuff?

    Cuz I'm heavily considering it, but 20 Zetas is a lot to drop on an experiment that may backfire...and one of my guild's biggest theorycrafters is swearing it won't work even despite Dev confirmation of Fracture Taunting.

    I don't have obi zeta, but according to Luke's skill mechanics, the dispel occurs first then buff immunity is applied. This is similar to how Fracture operates. I'd guess the zeta taunt will wedge in after dispel and before buff immunity.
  • DatBoi
    3609 posts Member
    Um... old ben isn't tagged as a rebel for me
  • Spyda
    318 posts Member
    edited August 2017
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Um... old ben isn't tagged as a rebel for me

    That has been flagged as a bug and is being looked into presently.
    Hiya!
    For those present at the launch of our 8/21/2017 Hotfix, amidst the discussion, keen Players noted Obi-Wan Kenobi (Old Ben) no longer had the Rebel tag. This was not intended and Old Ben should most definitely have the Rebel tag. Our team will be working today on a follow up hotfix to ensure this tag is replaced. Cheers!
  • I too would like to hear more feedback on his Taunt Zeta before I slap it on as well. Thanks.
  • If the zeta on taunt work with Fracture, it should also work the same way with CLS Use the Force, right? CLS removes buffs, OB regains taunt, CLS applies Buff Immunity and Tenacity Down.
    So, Old Ben can have Taunt with Buff Immunity.
  • BulYwif wrote: »
    If the zeta on taunt work with Fracture, it should also work the same way with CLS Use the Force, right? CLS removes buffs, OB regains taunt, CLS applies Buff Immunity and Tenacity Down.
    So, Old Ben can have Taunt with Buff Immunity.

    Depends on when that buff immunity is applied. If it applies before buff removal, then no, he won’t get taunt again.
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