Territory War Ties [Merged]

Replies

  • Corvus wrote: »
    Kreontas wrote: »
    Yeah but then again if both got 1st place rewards wouldn’t everyone intentionally draw every time? It would be the best strategy

    exactly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n

    You could still require a full map clear to gain 1st price, since there is nothing you can do to do better in that case

    currently we are only 1 fleet short from a clear map, our opponent is 3 fleets short. Not super power guilds. We have plenty of ground troops left. This will happen quite often, I guess.

    You also underestimate the power of people making deals. If both sides agree to just dump in loser squads for defense both can clear in 15 minutes.
    Banthas want to eat me, but I eat back!
  • Tuscan21 wrote: »
    If you wipe out the oppositions defence completely you get first place whether you win or draw.

    So guild leaders can arrange easy victories? No way.

    Yes, it would be cheating; Yes, I don't think most people are cheaters, but if you leave the door open the insurance doesn't pay.
    Banthas want to eat me, but I eat back!
  • Tuscan21 wrote: »
    If you wipe out the oppositions defence completely you get first place whether you win or draw.

    So guild leaders can arrange easy victories? No way.

    Yes, it would be cheating; Yes, I don't think most people are cheaters, but if you leave the door open the insurance doesn't pay.

    Yeah but in the current situation you only need to fill in the minimum squads to get the rewards and don't bother any further. As draws willbe the norm. Since the maximum points both can acquire are equal.

    So now you can fight to the teeth to get 2nd place rewards or dump one or two def teams and don't care anymore to get 2nd place.

    And you think that is better?
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    New TW is comparable to a series of arena matches, and given how easier is to win on offense than defence the following can happen:
    If a guild puts only garbage teams on defense and spares his good ones for offense, it forces a draw.
    You allow the opponent to conquer all your territories but at the same time "guarantee" yourself conquering theirs.
    If a successful defense doesn't earn you any additional score there's simply no way to prevent it at present.
    Thoughts?
    Res non verba
  • You just need to put stronger defense teams. Also use tactics and hide strongest teams deep in yr territory so the enemies possibly use their best teams before they reach yours.

  • thomssi
    321 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    You get 20 banners for deploying a defence squad but 10 for beating one. If you post higher defence score than opponent and both clear the board you win. If you mean still fill everything but with rubbish toons then yes, that would be the case. If they are not full though, and they weren't on our, you win.

    In our guild the opponent only filled about half defence slots and we posted maybe 75%. We cleared their board. No matter what they do now can't catch us.
    Post edited by thomssi on
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    Zagrey wrote: »
    You just need to put stronger defense teams. Also use tactics and hide strongest teams deep in yr territory so the enemies possibly use their best teams before they reach yours.
    The point is that your opponents can force a draw regardless of your strategy.. There's no way to reliably win on defence, so if they put ugnaught teams on defence they will have a way ro defeat all your defenses no matter what.

    We will already see a ridiculous amount of ties, and we know that in case of a draw both guilds get second place prizes, therefore if you're not totally sure to win (which i see as a very remote case) you just deny the other guild first place.
    Res non verba
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    thomssi wrote: »
    You get 20 banners for seploying a defence squad but 10 for beating one. If you post higher defence score than opponent and both clear the board you win. If you mean still fill everything but with rubbish toons then yes, that would be the case. If they are not full though, and they weren't on our, you win.

    In our guild the opponent only filled about half defence slots and we posted maybe 75%. We cleared their board. No matter what they do now can't catch us.

    Correct, i'm talking about the case in which both guilds fill all defensive slots
    Res non verba
  • There’s a thread - where you get banners for defensive holds. So instead of 10 and 20 banners. You could get 1 or 2 for successfully defending.
    I like this because I feel a defensive hold is a more prideful stat lol
  • We'll see
  • Bora wrote: »
    Zagrey wrote: »
    You just need to put stronger defense teams. Also use tactics and hide strongest teams deep in yr territory so the enemies possibly use their best teams before they reach yours.
    The point is that your opponents can force a draw regardless of your strategy.. There's no way to reliably win on defence, so if they put ugnaught teams on defence they will have a way ro defeat all your defenses no matter what.

    We will already see a ridiculous amount of ties, and we know that in case of a draw both guilds get second place prizes, therefore if you're not totally sure to win (which i see as a very remote case) you just deny the other guild first place.

    That is sadly true as much fun this mode is currently you do not fight to win but just to deny your opponent the 1st price as well.
  • I fully agree with Bora, although i think we will not see this problem in lower gp guilds, but just in high end guilds, tactics would not work if one guild decides to do no defence (use only 240 garbage teams to earn 4800 banners) and focus all on offence. Due to preventing dozens of draws, i think there should be some banners even for succesfull defence (for times up or defeating an oponent).

    I like this aspect of the game... its really fresh wind :) , it just needs some small improvements :)
  • J_Starseed
    325 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Forcing a draw means you lost. Where's the fun in that?
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    There’s a thread - where you get banners for defensive holds. So instead of 10 and 20 banners. You could get 1 or 2 for successfully defending.
    I like this because I feel a defensive hold is a more prideful stat lol

    Yup, I think that'd be a good solution. Sure, I don't think that victory denying tactics should be a thing and am kind of amazed of how this slipped through beta testing (tho I shouldn't be surprised being a day one player)
    Res non verba
  • Points for surviving defensive toons (per toon, not team)

    There aren't any surviving defensive toons in tied games.
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    J_Starseed wrote: »
    Forcing a draw means you lost. Where's the fun in that?

    In higher gp guilds you'll end in draw regardless of efforts, i bet you'll see many threads about that in a few hours.. this tactics just assures you that your adversary cannot win.
    Res non verba
  • Bora wrote: »
    There’s a thread - where you get banners for defensive holds. So instead of 10 and 20 banners. You could get 1 or 2 for successfully defending.
    I like this because I feel a defensive hold is a more prideful stat lol

    Yup, I think that'd be a good solution. Sure, I don't think that victory denying tactics should be a thing and am kind of amazed of how this slipped through beta testing (tho I shouldn't be surprised being a day one player)

    To be fair beta testers pointed that problem out ;). Also it still seems some mechanics got cancelled like deploying squads in conquered territories.
  • Gond wrote: »
    Points for surviving defensive toons (per toon, not team)

    There aren't any surviving defensive toons in tied games.

    I guess he ment after a succesfull defense fight...

  • I think a PERFECT option would be to have each guild "deploy" their remaining toons into the opposition's territory upon a full clear. These are the leftover toons that haven't been used on offense or defense. Think of this in similar terms to what you do in TB after doing platoons and combat missions. This would be a barometer of your efficiency as a guild, but also shouldn't have the effect of making less powerful guild members gun-shy with experimenting with fights with their under-powered toons along the way (whereas the previous example citing number of toons used would have that very effect). This would still, in theory, give the advantage to the guild that has more GP to start, but could very well swing in the other direction if your guild is defeated frequently in battle. (Note: I was impressed with the matchmaking for TW and I feel as though MOST guilds were matched to a guild within 1 million of their GP). Also, we know that deployment is already a mechanic that the devs have used before, and I believe that would make it a more feasible option than some other equally appealing ideas (i.e. sudden death matches, extra territories popping up, etc).

    Would love to hear feedback on this! Have a great one, ladies and gents :smile:

    Our rival guild was 6M GP higher than us.
    That means we would never be able to beat them with your method.
  • Bora
    387 posts Member
    Corvus wrote: »
    Bora wrote: »
    There’s a thread - where you get banners for defensive holds. So instead of 10 and 20 banners. You could get 1 or 2 for successfully defending.
    I like this because I feel a defensive hold is a more prideful stat lol

    Yup, I think that'd be a good solution. Sure, I don't think that victory denying tactics should be a thing and am kind of amazed of how this slipped through beta testing (tho I shouldn't be surprised being a day one player)

    To be fair beta testers pointed that problem out ;). Also it still seems some mechanics got cancelled like deploying squads in conquered territories.

    Then I stand corrected Sir!
    Res non verba
  • Was crazy fun though. Really enjoy it
  • I suggested a +1 point system when on defense. For every toon that survives the attack, the defense teams get +1. This would prevent ties in almost every case and encourage more strategy on offense, as not defeating them in one go hurts you. I’ve seen dozens of 100 million plus guild tie, not one win/lose. The rosters are just too deep. Please seriously spread this and make it happen. @CG_Kozispoon @CG_Dan @CG_Conduit23 @CG_JohnSalera @CG_RyDiggs
  • the way it works now, no matter how much you make strategy, or how deep your roster is, even if you defend your territories with your best teams, you cannot stop the opponent from conquerring them, so, as I said, no matter what you do, you are forced to a tie, even if nobody wants it;
    they really should implement new ways of departure, if not, you'll know from the start you play just for a tie, and take all the fun of it;
    give points for succesfull defends, or let more teams for defending, or calculate the gp defeated etc
  • There should be an extra portion of the map, locked and unused. Guilds can only set single toon teams. In case of a tie this territory is unlocked.
    Ideally you would restrict it to only allow CUP.
    The mark of a high end guild is the number of CUPS in the roster. if you've sacrificed farming and gearing other toons for a high end CUP, then you would win these one on one cup battles.

    On the higher end, whale guilds should have roughly the same number of CUPS, so a "CUP Off," if you will, would be a fair assessment of overall guild strength/health, while bringing attention to an otherwise unused and certainly underused character.
  • yossgold
    62 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Degs29 wrote: »
    I don't see most matches ending in a draw

    FYI, all 4 guilds in our alliance finished their matchups with a draw. I’m pretty sure that if you ask around, I’m willing to bet almost every guild from 120M GP and higher fought to a draw with both guilds clearing the map.

    It may also be the case for lower tier guilds because they also have lower tier opposition, but a ton of matchups will be fought to draws.
  • Peer
    299 posts Member
    Who cleared the map first is irrelevant. Many already pointed out that activity depends on local time. We are German and fought a guild from the US. While we slept they cleared some territories.

    With regard to the number of battles it took to clear the map please consider that for the weaker guild it might take more encounters to finish off opponent squads. If this guild manages to succeed they most likely deployed a superior strategy.
  • yossgold
    62 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    War wrote: »
    This is bad idea that would put favor on trying to find cheesy defense teams, rather than keeping to the strategy of finding the just right team to beat

    Are there really that many cheesy defense teams you can put up without sacrificing offense and losing the defensive banners you gain on offense? This isn’t arena, you don’t have to pick 5 toons to build one squad. That’s how you one up your opponent, you manage to hold more on defense while still being able to clear them on offense. Remember that most of the best defensive teams in the game have legendary toons that are needed to beat those teams when you meet them on the other side. So how you balance, where you place what and how lucky you are with which path the opposing guild chooses to take are the deciders, not just if you can clear each other’s maps you shake hands and never win. Most ppl want to play to win because it’s most definitely not for the rewards ;)

    Also, did the fact that you don’t get banners for holding on D make that those teams weren’t deployed? We met all of them man, every Zarris, CLS, Chaze or other meta team was on the map, so adding a bonus for holding wouldn’t change anything. There will still be meta D teams and there will still be a lot of crazy comps you’ll use to beat the fodder teams.

    Oh, and to someone who’s competitive (which is why ppl are generally kittened about the draws because it isn’t that extra zeta), a coin toss does nothing. You want to earn your win using superior strategy, not win an extra zeta on a coin toss.
    Post edited by Ambassador on
  • Durmir
    205 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    This post is a good point and a fine example of game theory.

    Case A: you put all the strong teams in offense, and simply fills garbage in defense (but you need to fill all for the extra defense points).
    Results: either the ennemy can beat you, and it's a draw, or he cannot and you win.

    Case B: you decide to put stronger teams in defense.
    Results: either your opponent still beats you, and you lose, or he cannot and you "compete" with 50/50 chance of losing/winning at the start.

    In case A, you are sure to win or draw.
    In case B, there is a high chance you lose, and small one you win.

    A > B

    Morale of the story: the status quo is preferable, go for A and aim at a draw.

    What solution to this? The most obvious would be to reward at least 1 point to the defending team if the attacker loses a battle. You can also give an advantage to the defender with more special skills. You can also add 5 automatic squads, designed by the devs and with powers corresponding to the bracket you play in, in each territory in addition to the 24 (hence putting more squads in defense and reducing the probability of having enough attacking teams to clear it all).

    Just a few ideas.
  • leef
    12939 posts Member
    Tilar wrote: »
    Tie breaker should be Guild ID in alphabetical order. Bring back the good ol' days.

    /s

    haha, love it!
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • thomssi
    321 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    The problem is only going to be for top level teams. Maybe the solution is changing the % defence cap with the GP bands. I think it is 50% of participants in each area (so 40 participants is 20 slots each area). For us this worked well in a 40m-45m GP category but I can see it would not in 100m+ So maybe you have 50% then >50m 60%, >60m 70% etc. May need a bit of calibrating but clearly the top guilds are going to be able to fill far more slots than a low guild with same number of members.

    On a similar point, fleets should have a different cap level. It is only possible to have 4 fleets (capital ships - fleets wouldn't be full anyway) when a top player may have a dozen or more good squads.
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