Territory War Ties [Merged]

Replies

  • Wouldn't work well because of time zones
  • ProximaB1_ wrote: »
    JacenRoe wrote: »
    ProximaB1_ wrote: »
    I would prefer ties to that. If defensive points happened I would probably just set defensive squads and skip offensive phase.

    Then you will lose.
    ProximaB1_ wrote: »
    I personally don't like the defensive points idea. I enjoy using characters I like. Most of those aren't that good. Under this point system. Your not going to use lesser characters because you'll give opposition points. The best part of tw is being able to use your whole roster.

    You would still use your whole roster to win. If beating a team takes 2 tries then you lost one point, to gain 10. If that's what it takes to finish a territory that will give you 700 more points you're not going to skip out on doing anything that risks a loss.

    And besides, you would have MORE incentive to upgrade a variety of toons if they actually need to be good so you could finish an opponent with 2 teams instead of 5-6 scrap teams for example.

    And you drastically overestimate the perverse incentive to put all your good teams on defense. If your favorite/strongest toons are on defense you're going to lose, and give up banners. You need a balance of strong defense teams that can get a few wins on defense, and strong teams that can win efficiency on offense. You are imagining a non-existent problem, and not giving any proof of why it's a concern.

    I never said they were junk toons. For instance my geonosians can take baze out but probably won't win the entire fight. So now I'm being penalized. Basically all the fun is gone if you can't strategically take out squads. Why have those toons.

    You still haven't made a logical point. Using your Geo team to nuke Baze gives your opponent one point. Then bringing in another team to finish the job gains you ten. The other team is having to make the same choices.

    Completing the whole map gives huge points. Doing it most efficiently breaks the tie. What you are saying (defensive wins penalizes using multiple B-teams on tough opponents) is true if the points for d-wins negates the o-wins. (Like if you give your opponent 10 points for failing, and win 10 for beating them). THAT would be a terrible system. But giving a single point for a defense win is NOT going to stop anybody from attempting to win hundreds/thousands of points.
  • Yeah don't like who finishes first. Imo you should score 1 banner for every defensive win.
  • First I wanna say TW is very fun and challenging. It use ur full roster but doesnt take as long as the old tournament.

    The problem is the tie. Similar hi GP guild will always get a tie cause it a lot easier to be on offense due to AI.
    If the TW don't find a way to solve this problem. The TW will get very boring for Guild whit hi GP.

    An easy way to solve this is just to get 1 point for successful defense. That way u get rid of the tie problem and having a good defensive squad will make sense since it could make the difference in case of a tie. Otherwise It wont matter what u put on defense.
  • A variation of counting def wins is just limiting the number of attacks each guild member can have. It will lessen ties. For 50 v 50, if every active player in the tw can only do 4 infantry and 1 ships attack, then it becomes way more strategic.
  • My point is it makes tw boring. Instead of using unique strategy to beat squads you fight based completely on counter to that team. Fighting zaul time for Rex squad. I don't know about you but I've done that enough. I also never said my guild wouldn't do offensive battles I said I would set up defensive squads so I don't have to deal with dozens of boring fights. If the guild needed me at the end I'm not going to say no to bad.
  • Wouldn't work well because of time zones

    hmm... that would be an issue.
  • Yeah don't like who finishes first. Imo you should score 1 banner for every defensive win.
    U
    +1
  • Manowar
    288 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    RWTD_Burn wrote: »
    Ties are the symptom, not the problem with TW. The problem is that it's too easy to conquer the entire map. It's only going to occur more and more often as they release new characters and the number of attacking teams we can create grows while the number of defending teams we can set remains the same. The max number of defending teams per territory has to be increased. Ideally there would be a scaling system that increases each cap from 25 to 30 around the GP 100M mark, then increases from 30 to 35 around the GP 115M to 120M range.

    If the defensive cap remains as is, all of the strategy involved in setting up your defenses in specific territories is irrelevant as we will be able to wipe out all of the defending teams any. It might as well just be 1 massive territory that we dump every defending team into. Points for defensive stands; depreciating point values for victories over weakened defensive teams; and fastest conquering of the map will fix the ties but it won't fix the issue of there being no tactical value in where you deploy your best defending teams. Conquering the entire map for 2 evenly matched teams should be near impossible so that the choices in what territories to defend heavily and which ones to attack have value and consequences when you fail.

    Another sensible person... thank you! @RWTD_Burn

    I can even see a solution similar to the 600 energy daily requirement, where the maximum points you can earn on defense is only 5,000 (equivalent of 25 teams per area) but there is no cap on the amount of teams you can set. Now THAT would make things strategic!
    An easy way to solve this is just to get 1 point for successful defense.

    Everyone keeps talking about the easy solution. Since when has the easiest way been the best way? In my experience, taking the easy choice makes for hard consequences. The RIGHT choice needs to be made, and I'm afraid that if the roar of the masses continue, CG will give in to the demands and partially ruin the game experience.
  • RWTD_Burn wrote: »
    Ties are the symptom, not the problem with TW. The problem is that it's too easy to conquer the entire map. It's only going to occur more and more often as they release new characters and the number of attacking teams we can create grows while the number of defending teams we can set remains the same. The max number of defending teams per territory has to be increased. Ideally there would be a scaling system that increases each cap from 25 to 30 around the GP 100M mark, then increases from 30 to 35 around the GP 115M to 120M range.

    If the defensive cap remains as is, all of the strategy involved in setting up your defenses in specific territories is irrelevant as we will be able to wipe out all of the defending teams any. It might as well just be 1 massive territory that we dump every defending team into. Points for defensive stands; depreciating point values for victories over weakened defensive teams; and fastest conquering of the map will fix the ties but it won't fix the issue of there being no tactical value in where you deploy your best defending teams. Conquering the entire map for 2 evenly matched teams should be near impossible so that the choices in what territories to defend heavily and which ones to attack have value and consequences when you fail.

    The problem whit getting more defensive team is that it will juste make the TW last longer. TW is fun but I don't wanna spend 4 hour just to do all my battles
  • kalidor
    1742 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Tally up the number of defense wins on each side and use that as the first tie-breaker in the event of a tie. This means you can't win purely because of defense wins (like the +1 suggestion above). You'd have to tie first.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • Well having a solution that is complicated won't guaranty a better gameplay either. Just saying making defense squad usefull wont ruin the experience. And adding more defensive squad will just take everyone more time to finish it for the same pretty mutch the same result.
  • Right, a complicated solution hardly guarantees better gameplay. I want the best solution as much as you do, so I hope something feasible is introduced that doesn't alter too much the current experience.

    I don't think adding more defensive squads will yield the same result. If a guild wants to be risky and they place, say, half of their roster on defense then they ought to be allowed to do so.
  • Well having a solution that is complicated won't guaranty a better gameplay either. Just saying making defense squad usefull wont ruin the experience. And adding more defensive squad will just take everyone more time to finish it for the same pretty mutch the same result.

    This changes tw completely. For players, especially collector players tw is extremely fun because you can enjoy using your array of characters. This small change isn't small at all it destroys a good chunk of your roster.
  • 1 point for each defensive unit surviving attack
    So this seems like easiest and possibly tactically really engaging.

    Understand equal win cannot work because of win trading.
  • TW is not fun because u use all ur roster it is fun because u have to be smart about it. But if everyone can finish it because they have a big roster. I don't see the point of it.
  • More defensive squads is such a bad idea. You don't get to do anything on defense. You need to be able to gain banners with every action, so defeating a character should gain a banner, whether on offense or defense. And only one banner, not ten, not twenty. Why do games insist on point inflation when their numbers are all reducible anyway?

    But while we're at it, TW should change entirely. Why not be able to move squads and retake territories? Off the top of my head, make it like the TB map with each team working from opposite directions.

    Phase 1) Lock in and match
    Phase 2) Early deployment of every unit up to a near-middle line like in Stratego. Anything that is locked in but not manually deployed will be automatically deployed.
    Phase 3) All-out war. To attack, you move a squad into a bordering enemy territory. Squads in conflict zones can't be reorganized, but can be pulled back and out of conflict if they're not currently engaged. If you lose two characters and want to save that CLS for another team, pull him back, reorganize, then drop him into another squad to attack. Maybe attacking keeps them pinned to a territory for ten minutes to an hour or something. One point for defeating a character, whether on offense or defense. 70 points for taking a territory, bigger points for taking a territory deeper in enemy land, bonus points for claiming a whole horizontal line of territories (advancing your line). Fight until timer runs out or one side is wiped out or surrenders.
  • It’s simple: +1 point for each defensive toon that survives an offensive attack. It makes the stategy more important on offense and defense.
  • Chuybacca wrote: »
    It’s simple: +1 point for each defensive toon that survives an offensive attack. It makes the stategy more important on offense and defense.

    It's the same problem people have rightly cited for +1 point for defensive wins. It discourages sending in teams that are meant to pick off key toons or might not win, which does feel like a bit of a noose on the strategy here.

    That's why I proposed +X points for a flawless offense win (5 toons left standing on your side, not applicable if you have less than 5). The effect is very similar, but there's no inherent penalty for an attack you know won't destroy the enemy team.
  • TW is not fun because u use all ur roster it is fun because u have to be smart about it. But if everyone can finish it because they have a big roster. I don't see the point of it.

    The defense point system does change the fact that everyone finishes it. It just uses a statistic to pick a winner.
  • Could just award First Place to the guild with the lower overall participating GP in the event of a tie.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • J_Starseed
    325 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Anyone else think defensive wins ought to break ties?
  • In GW no

    In TW perhaps
  • Lol. I'll fix that!

  • Viserys wrote: »
    Chuybacca wrote: »
    It’s simple: +1 point for each defensive toon that survives an offensive attack. It makes the stategy more important on offense and defense.

    It's the same problem people have rightly cited for +1 point for defensive wins. It discourages sending in teams that are meant to pick off key toons or might not win, which does feel like a bit of a noose on the strategy here.

    That's why I proposed +X points for a flawless offense win (5 toons left standing on your side, not applicable if you have less than 5). The effect is very similar, but there's no inherent penalty for an attack you know won't destroy the enemy team.

    +1 for defense wins doesn’t discourage the use of softening up and/or finishing teams of lower gear or stats. It makes you be more careful about how you are using them. They will still be necessary for most guilds in order to achieve a full clear. No one is going to waste a meta squad if the only character who survived a battle was an opposing r2. They will send in something for cleanup. Likewise if the only character who survived a battle was a CLS or a savage or a zylo, cleanup squad power will have to adjust accordingly. People who make the correct choices will incur the loss of the least amount of extra battles. This breaking a tie.
  • Viserys wrote: »
    Chuybacca wrote: »
    It’s simple: +1 point for each defensive toon that survives an offensive attack. It makes the stategy more important on offense and defense.

    It's the same problem people have rightly cited for +1 point for defensive wins. It discourages sending in teams that are meant to pick off key toons or might not win, which does feel like a bit of a noose on the strategy here.

    That's why I proposed +X points for a flawless offense win (5 toons left standing on your side, not applicable if you have less than 5). The effect is very similar, but there's no inherent penalty for an attack you know won't destroy the enemy team.

    Inherent penalty? You send in a team to pick off a key toon, and then come in afterwards with a second team and a win, you win. You gain 10 points and they gain only 1. And, this happens both ways. Now you have to consider how to outdo your opponent at another level.

    Flawless offense should be considered a huge miscalculation and mistake on your part. If you beat them that badly, you wasted toons. You shouldn’t be rewarded for that.

    What you should be rewarded for is building a team that can take a beating against more than its fair share of teams
  • RWTD_Burn wrote: »
    Fredy5 wrote: »
    if you run a race and finnish at the exact same time. both finish First not 2nd.....

    This is a race that the 2 participants can easily agree to tie on purpose so they both get the rewards. Both getting 2nd place is the only way to protect the integrity of GW.


    ****.

    If both guilds wipe the map they should get 1st place scores no matter what. It SHOULD be the same with the rancor raid. A rancor solo should give you 1st place rewards no matter how many people solo.
  • ProximaB1_ wrote: »
    Well having a solution that is complicated won't guaranty a better gameplay either. Just saying making defense squad usefull wont ruin the experience. And adding more defensive squad will just take everyone more time to finish it for the same pretty mutch the same result.

    This changes tw completely. For players, especially collector players tw is extremely fun because you can enjoy using your array of characters. This small change isn't small at all it destroys a good chunk of your roster.

    No it doesn't. You haven't given any reason as to why it would do that. Players need an absolute bare minimum of 40 toons for an average of 4 d-teams, and 4 o-teams. And then you WILL still fail with some meta vs. meta teams. Then you have to go in with those spare teams to clean up. For me this round I probably used another 25-30 toons for cleanup after setting defense, and using my best 4 offense teams. If I had more low-mid geared toons I would DEFINITELY have used them. Collectors like you with a really broad range of decently geared/modded squads can scavenge half beaten meta teams to rack up lots of banners.
  • Our guild cleared enemy zone after 12 hours, our enemy on opposite side of the globe cleared after 20 hours. The huge problem if both tie for such effort then the question is? WHAT'S the POINT to bother if u get 1 zeta if u won and if you ignored? You just saving the time because this game just eats it like you have to live inside of this game. Nonsense :smiley:
  • yossgold wrote: »
    ‘sup EA/CG.

    First of all, enjoying TW so far, it’s a lot of fun and very refreshing.

    One MAJOR issue is arising is that very soon almost every matchup will end on a draw.

    Why? Because after ironing out the limited strategies there are and first time mistakes, it will eventually boil back down to the fact that when humans face AI, they will always have the advantage.

    I find it hard to believe this game mode stays interesting once the novelty wears off if most matchups become a “full guild doing a Galactic Wars campaign”, especially when the consistent prize for completing it will be 2nd place.

    But, my grandma always told me that I should never talk about a problem without offering a solution and in this case it’s a pretty simple one.

    Award banners for defensive holds too. If this is done, a draw is still possible, but it will be the anomaly rather than the norm (which is what is trending to be the case) and will only happen when two guilds that are truly equal both strategically and on roster and in that case, just like in Chess, a draw is acceptable.

    Hope this gets considered.

    Also Got another solution to the draws. As far as payouts go.....if both teams clear out the territories 100% give both the 1st place reward. If none of them finishes 100% yet still end up with the same score then you may give them both 2nd place. Also like the Defensive banners would work as well.
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