Sith Triumvirate Raid Changes [MEGA]

Replies

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    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
  • TVF
    36759 posts Member
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    along with all future Raid Bosses

    New raid incoming confirmed! :p
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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    We're supposed to be appreciative for the week's notice? As opposed to.... what? Surprising us?

    This is a grind game. One week to level, gear, mod "new compositions and teams?" That week is a minute in real life comparisons.

    I don't have JTR. I hate these changes.
    I didn't use STH. I hate these changes.
    Unless I know unequivocally that Expose would break a future raid in half, I hate these changes.

    But we don't know, because the informational funnel is plugged. We get drips. If the info we get was oil, my engine would be blown.
  • TlMMEH
    60 posts Member
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    @CG_RyDiggs Here is an honest question, not being rhetorical: When you devs were designing the raid and tweaking the difficulty you must have at some point made a line where you thought it should be doable. So at what guild GP did you place the line for who, in your estimate should be able to complete a T6 raid in three days(the time it takes to refresh the raid tickets spent on the raid)? Is this supposed to be only doable by guilds with 140+GP? a little clarity on what your (the devs) expectation is on the difficulty and who should and should not be able to complete each tear within the time it takes to replenish the tickets spent at each Tier would go a long way in building some trust here.
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    TVF wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    along with all future Raid Bosses

    New raid incoming confirmed! :p

    Ok... I needed that. Thank you ;) LOL
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
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    Of course STH was broken! Saying otherwise is sillytalk, especialy coming from a ”long time player”..
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    [/quote]

    I hope you will forgive our lack of faith in your testing prowess at this point.

    [/quote]

    I FIND YOUR LACK OF FAITH... COMPLETELY APPROPRIATE IN THIS SITUATION
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    We're supposed to be appreciative for the week's notice? As opposed to.... what? Surprising us?

    This is a grind game. One week to level, gear, mod "new compositions and teams?" That week is a minute in real life comparisons.

    I don't have JTR. I hate these changes.
    I didn't use STH. I hate these changes.
    Unless I know unequivocally that Expose would break a future raid in half, I hate these changes.

    But we don't know, because the informational funnel is plugged. We get drips. If the info we get was oil, my engine would be blown.

    Heya Vettes4Fetts,

    I don't think we expressed an idea that player would be excited by these changes. It was for that reason we chose to talk about them a week before we actually made the changes. We knew players would have/want feedback and we want to hear it.

    We haven't made the future Raids yet, so I can't say it will unequivocally break in half due to expose. However, I can guarantee the next Raid will have a Raid Boss, and that Raid Boss will not have reactions to Expose the way Raid Bosses do now.

    Again, probably not going to make you happy, but I appreciate your time and look forward to hearing thoughts next week.

    RT
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
  • Huatimus
    3669 posts Member
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    Zader is still a decent lead, got about 1% in P1 of Heroic Sith Raid with him.
  • Jeric
    271 posts Member
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    I have been very supportive of CG. I was actually considering my first whale-Sion (while I have RJT, she cost me the vet pack plus $20-I wouldn't call that whaling). Till this point I'd call myself a dolphin. Periodically purchasing crystals as I've gone along.

    I'm glad I've waited on Sion. I honestly don't believe I can put money into this game and more specifically exclusively into one character. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Maybe I'm biased and selfish as an RJT user.

    My guild has 5 RJTs. We have about 85M GP. It's not easy to get through T4. It takes us three days. We're far and removed from attempting T7.

    In all aspects this just seems like a punishment for non-top tier guilds. As well as those who went all out in order to obtain RJT. And I know a lot more people spent way more then I did.

    While I'm still placing top 10 in my arena shard with RJT she's a dying breed in my Jan 2016 shard. A potential raid nerf (in regards to expose) especially for the HAAT will leave me no choice but to go completely f2p. I'd be doing myself a disservice to pay again for the chance that my investment is nerfed.

    My faith isn't completely lost. If this doesn't really affect any other raids, or if this change is implemented I'll seriously reconsider my stance and def reconsider my plans for Sion.



    I understand your concerns, and decisions. Your views and feedback are certainly noted. Let's get through the changes next week and continue the process of change, evaluate, correct.

    We'll be looking for feedback then too!

    Thank you for all your support.

    RT

    I'm happy to see that you have ceased calling the customer base hyperbolic. I've placed employee's on corrective action for offenses like that , and we work in similar industries. I applaud your attempsts to communicate, but you may want to try a more tactful approach going forward.

    You have been given substantive actionable value added feedback by the community, yet the focus is on elements that scale back damage done by the player units only. You have the data required to evaluate and modify other facets of the raid, while still maintaining the integrity of the challenge and the philosophy of game design that your company communicated. In the end, a not insignificant portion of the player base feels that the new raid is simply not enjoyable. The suggestions range from untenable to fair. Some of them were creative compromises on a tiered approach to awarding the chase character shards. You should seriously consider implementation of these solutions.

    And yes, I bolded the above word in reference to a previous snarky comment you made to another player. Computer science requires precision and attention to detail. That said, modern development firms also place a premium on soft skills. I read your interactions and found some of them ... wanting. I would work on the customer relations aspect of your role.
  • Options
    TlMMEH wrote: »
    @CG_RyDiggs Here is an honest question, not being rhetorical: When you devs were designing the raid and tweaking the difficulty you must have at some point made a line where you thought it should be doable. So at what guild GP did you place the line for who, in your estimate should be able to complete a T6 raid in three days(the time it takes to refresh the raid tickets spent on the raid)? Is this supposed to be only doable by guilds with 140+GP? a little clarity on what your (the devs) expectation is on the difficulty and who should and should not be able to complete each tear within the time it takes to replenish the tickets spent at each Tier would go a long way in building some trust here.

    Heya Timmeh,

    Thank you sooo much for the question.

    1. Yes, we set design goals, which we work to meet. There are more parameters than GP, but sometimes that is one parameter.
    2. I can't divulge GP's of target guild for target tiers or any other target goals (which there are always multiple), but these changes will get the raid closer to the design intended.
    3. As stated on its release, STR is/was designed to be the MOST challenging guild event we've ever made. Dark Side Territory Battle had that dubious honor for a few months, but we wanted this Raid to have a VERY LONG life span. So, it will take time, and we know that. This means guilds will have another challenge before them.

    Guilds are forever growing in power daily. Eventually all content will become familiar, known and by then we will all be on the new challenges (Rancor, AAT, LSTB).

    Not all guilds seek mastery, they play casually, so they just like seeing fresh new content. AAT having only normal/heroic showed us that. So, STR has the Tiers for many guild play levels, so everyone can participate.

    I don't think I could answer you directly, so much as restate what you have seen already.

    I hope you know we do care, are listening and will continue to adjust and update only when necessary for the longterm health of the game.

    RT
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
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    Honestly, I'm rather baffled that the ST han interaction wasn't caught in testing. Personally he would have been in my top 5-10 "toons with TMR or TMG abilities to check and make sure work as intended". This is not like the Nute Gunray + jawas interaction since that came about as a sort of perfect storm where 2 or 3 abilities were interacting with a raid bonus, and adjustments to stealth pushed it too far over the edge. ST Han, on the other hand, is a frequently encountered early game toon, and probably most player's introduction to turn meter gain strategies/synergies. In fact he is arguably the prototypical mass TMG/TMR toon. It's pretty much his whole shtick, and it makes sense that he would be one of the first things tried out in a new raid. The fact that a pretty simple interaction with one of the core new raid mechanics seemed to have blindsided you troubles me.
  • Bulldog1205
    3573 posts Member
    edited March 2018
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    We're supposed to be appreciative for the week's notice? As opposed to.... what? Surprising us?

    This is a grind game. One week to level, gear, mod "new compositions and teams?" That week is a minute in real life comparisons.

    I don't have JTR. I hate these changes.
    I didn't use STH. I hate these changes.
    Unless I know unequivocally that Expose would break a future raid in half, I hate these changes.

    But we don't know, because the informational funnel is plugged. We get drips. If the info we get was oil, my engine would be blown.

    Heya Vettes4Fetts,

    I don't think we expressed an idea that player would be excited by these changes. It was for that reason we chose to talk about them a week before we actually made the changes. We knew players would have/want feedback and we want to hear it.

    We haven't made the future Raids yet, so I can't say it will unequivocally break in half due to expose. However, I can guarantee the next Raid will have a Raid Boss, and that Raid Boss will not have reactions to Expose the way Raid Bosses do now.

    Again, probably not going to make you happy, but I appreciate your time and look forward to hearing thoughts next week.

    RT

    I completely understand why you are saying you want to do this, but it’s almost impossible to do it now, on already released raids, without it feeling like a slap in the face.

    I spent Zeta materials on BB-8 plus several hours trying multiple runs in different phases trying to get a handle on the best strategy with my JTR team because I thought it was the only current way to score “big” in this raid. I’m now very concerned it won’t be the way I would have used the resources had I known about this nerf, that there was 0 reason to suspect (unlike the Han nerf).

    On top of that I think a lot of us are Scared of the upcoming Traya meta. It’s looks extremely powerful. There are 150 million GP guilds who couldn’t complete heroic with JTR and the Han exploit. Im in a 120 million GP guild. If I don’t change guilds, how long am I going to have to wait before I can even START collecting Traya shards? There are people in my arena chat who can already complete heroic. With these changes I don’t even see heroic in our sights, and it puts a lot of pressure on me to join a better guild so I don’t fall behind in arena.
  • Options
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT

    It sounds like your design goals do not take into account what the customerbase wants.

    Heya Sirlagzalott,

    Sometimes game design goals and player expectations line up perfectly. Very often they DO!

    You want Sith Raid, WE want Sith Raid, we are aligned!

    When normal AAT released, after a few months, we deemed the difficulty was too high, and reduced the health of all the bosses. Players agreed and we were aligned.

    Sometimes the needs of the game are not what the players want. It is unfortunate, but it happens and we hate it, but we are working to design the game with many different design targets.

    We are working to change these divergences by talking to our beloved community BEFORE they happen, provide as much information as we can. Let you players voice your opinions and feedback and know we are listening.

    It's never ideal, but we want to make it the very best we possibly can when missing your expectations.

    Thanks for the question and supporting the game!

    RT
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
  • Grimstoned
    250 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    Options
    Hey CG if you nerf Rey can I just get my money back? I kept my receipts?
  • Krwind
    54 posts Member
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    jjkriv wrote: »
    DarthResin wrote: »
    Good thing I spent all that money and resources on RJT to have her Nerfed. Feels good man.

    http://imgur.com/zxOVoxI

    Im with this guy,Shes a legendary toon,whats the problem here?Commander Luke can stomp a mudhole in the rancor by himself and not a peep about nerfing him.If our guild cant complete the heroic haat after this foolishness,say goodbye to a bunch of quality peeps.Are you guys seriously trying to destroy this game?

    The problem is the Expose mechanic which will have current and long term effects. We needed to make the change for current raid along with all future Raid Bosses, and we decided to make the change along with fixing the ST Han loop.

    It was always going to happen, and we chose this update. HOWEVER, we're hoping the fact we gave you all a week's notice to provide feedback and for us to provide what ever clarity we can helps.

    It is not a popular change, but we want to make sure you all understand we're working for meeting the design goals of current and future Raid Bosses.

    We're never happy to miss player expectations, and will continue efforts to avoid that at all costs.

    Thank you for your support!

    RT

    It sounds like your design goals do not take into account what the customerbase wants.

    Heya Sirlagzalott,

    Sometimes game design goals and player expectations line up perfectly. Very often they DO!

    You want Sith Raid, WE want Sith Raid, we are aligned!

    When normal AAT released, after a few months, we deemed the difficulty was too high, and reduced the health of all the bosses. Players agreed and we were aligned.

    Sometimes the needs of the game are not what the players want. It is unfortunate, but it happens and we hate it, but we are working to design the game with many different design targets.

    We are working to change these divergences by talking to our beloved community BEFORE they happen, provide as much information as we can. Let you players voice your opinions and feedback and know we are listening.

    It's never ideal, but we want to make it the very best we possibly can when missing your expectations.

    Thanks for the question and supporting the game!

    RT

    so the team that works on this don't test on it internally in terms of balance and then when then release to the masses in hope they find something good and then use crystals on that particular team. Only then do your team come in and hey guys not working as intended, thanks for spending the crystals - this isn't the way the game is intended to be played, we are nerfing what you have upgraded. Please be happy we are looking into keeping the challenge, please find new comps to beat it - TEST it for us while we look at see what else to nerf to make you waste crystals on
  • Options
    Can someone see the irony on nerfing sthan at the same time of having sthan as month character???

    Netf sthan I get it because, but nerfing expose?? Are you serious?? Jrey was recent meta, can't believe your beta waters didn't try jrey team when testing the sith raid!
    So bad the smaller guilds are going to pay for your mistakes.
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    I think these are excellent changes.
    Fainsan1 wrote: »
    Good fix Devs although should have been caught pre-release. We don't need a new raid to be easily completed. Those complaining now would have been complaining in a few months when there isn't new content. #Sithlivesmatter.

    Good to know there are CG bots working to try to balance out the hundreds of negative comments...

    Also interesting that the very first page has tons of positive comments while every other is filled with disappointment and frustration. Nothing like manipulating the data to make it seem like there are people who like these changes.
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    Additionally, it’s not that we want easy completions. We just don’t want a boring grind where none of the toon’s mechanics work. If you’re taking steps to prevent anything other than “hit a few times until you die” it just isn’t fun.
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    Hello all,

    I'm heading out for the day, I know I haven't answered nearly all the great questions or responded to the passionate feedback here.

    I'll be out of the office tomorrow, BUT will be back Monday Morning. I'm hoping with more information to share, but certainly to reply to more comments.

    Until Monday!

    RT
    Development Manager for Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
  • Boozerprompt
    74 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    Options
    First and foremost, I appreciate that there is this venue for communication. I’ve been in the tech industry in SF for years, and the consumer-business dialogue is perpetually lacking.

    That said, this is such a bad look. If my company released a product that was this buggy, people would lose jobs. Beyond that, the way you’re addressing the issues seem entirely contrived, and, frankly, somewhat condescending at times. Some of your responses have been honest and appreciated, and I know it sucks. We the gamers didn’t create this mess though.

    I do value and respect the devs, I’m just reading all of these comments and Discord chats in somewhat disbelief. I’m in a halfway-decent guild of good people/some great players (around 75mil GP), and the constant response I’ve been getting from the guild regarding this raid is that it’s simply not fun. HAAT was hard, but rewarding. I went from posting 2 damage to being able to solo it, but the progress was seen every raid. This raid is tedious and most of my guild hates it/doesn’t even want to start it. It falls on 2-3 players to just send teams in, hit auto, wait for refresh, and do it again.

    Now, I understand the need for balance, and perhaps jRey was OP. Fine. Usually, when a company makes an egregious error, there is some form of apology, reimbursement...something other than saying, “oops, we made messed up with our new shiny toy. Sorry not sorry, good luck!”

    May I recommend:
    -Some sort of compensation for the wasted energy/time/money your gamers wasted during this past week
    -Perhaps some clarity on tactics for the raid? The community found squads that worked, but I swear I can’t imagine doing more than 2mil damage with any combo of rosters. Give us something to work towards!
    -the tenacity of the raid bosses is a huge issue. The stacking speed/tenacity makes it simply not fun for about 90% of my guild (and probably 100% given the upcoming nerfs). Unless you release 10 new toons in the coming months that are explicitly designed for sith raid, I just don’t see the average guild being able to beat it for years (and I sure as heck don’t plan on suffering through a year of constant losing for mediocre rewards).
    -you should write an in-game message with clarification. A lot of people aren’t on the forums, but deserve to have this knowledge.
    -rework the “recommended levels” for each tier. This is just a point towards more clarity; guilds with lower GP should know what tier they should be working towards.
    -why is player Sion utterly useless on the Sion raid?

    Thanks for letting me rant a bit, and apologies if I was rude at all. I’m incredibly frustrated by this entire experience, yet feel I’ve invested too much money into the game so can’t just walk away. I can, however, stop spending more money for a while why we figure out what isn’t a waste.
  • Zevox
    172 posts Member
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    You want Sith Raid, WE want Sith Raid, we are aligned!
    Are you so sure about that? Because the impression that I'm getting, from here, elsewhere on the internet, and my own guild, is that in its current incarnation, many people do not really want the Sith Raid. We'd like Traya, but that's about as far as it goes, and for the vast majority of us that don't have a snowball's chance in hell of completing the raid on heroic in less than a year's time she's so far out of reach that she's not much of a motivator. The actual raid itself doesn't feel fun to many even as it stands now, just a slog, and with a couple of the few effective teams about to be nerfed it sounds like that's about to get even worse.

    I'm not surprised by the people who have mentioned that some of their guild doesn't even want to bother with it, particularly considering I feel that same preference myself. The only thing keeping me playing it is the desire to help my Guild.
  • CamaroAMF
    1287 posts Member
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    TVF wrote: »
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    along with all future Raid Bosses

    New raid incoming confirmed! :p

    Takes a year and half for a new raid. With the decisions being made I find it unlikely the game will last that long.
  • Options
    I agree with the nerf but I feel the temporary solution should have been to remove treia's constant damage rather then make 12 characters unusable
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    It's kind of hard not to feel slighted as a player when an issue like this, which really should have been caught in testing, requires an immediate fix because it is “undermining the design spirit” and is an issue that impacts the player base positively. Yet problems that negatively impact us, from actual game breaking issues like TB freezes to ongoing bugs like the TIE Reaper seem to catch a priority of "whenever".

    Ours is a VERY complicated game, and we work very hard to meet your expectations of 100% issue free. We have/do internal and player testing. That said, having a live game with new things coming out, there are bound to be unforeseen issues. Again, we work very hard to build processes and practices to avoid them, but they do happen. For the health of the game overall, we will work to make fixes as soon as realistically possible.

    Note, some 'bugs' have to be added to a Version Update (every 3 months or so) and some we can fix in a Hot Fix (next day). It's not easy to lump them together, but we do our very best to meet your expectations.

    Thanks for the feedback!


    'That said, having a live game with new things coming out, there are bound to be unforeseen issues."

    Unforseen issues!! Are you telling me that you guys didn't see people using an rjt team??? Did expose never happen in play test? Rjt with bb8 and r2 was current meta adding in they other two toons was a natural step based on the mechanics you set. Maybe new play testers are needed. I have a software engineer degree and these issues are completely foreseen in a play test environment. Looks like your paying good money for slackers to not do there job. Shame on you cg..... You make me sad inside.
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    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »
    MeervalMan wrote: »
    What's the purpose of the expose nerf? As a heavy lifter in my guild for haat this kittens my whole guild.

    We're adjusting Expose on Raid bosses to bring the Sith Raid in alignment with intended design.
    It will have some minimal impact on other raid bosses.

    Let's get to the change before we declare the impact.

    This just read it's easier than we want it to be to me. Well tough cg maybe you should have thought of that before nerfing the only good team for the raid.... You know that it's a p2p team right??? These are people that gave you money to get jtr but that's not good enough. What's balanced to you right now? Impossible for a full p2p guild? Is that the intended design? Impossible?
  • TlMMEH
    60 posts Member
    Options
    CG_RyDiggs wrote: »

    1. Yes, we set design goals, which we work to meet. There are more parameters than GP, but sometimes that is one parameter.
    2. I can't divulge GP's of target guild for target tiers or any other target goals (which there are always multiple), but these changes will get the raid closer to the design intended.
    3. As stated on its release, STR is/was designed to be the MOST challenging guild event we've ever made. Dark Side Territory Battle had that dubious honor for a few months, but we wanted this Raid to have a VERY LONG life span. So, it will take time, and we know that. This means guilds will have another challenge before them.

    RT

    Thanks for the info. Reading between the lines here, DSTB requires a bare minimum of 168,600,000GP to get max stars if all 50 members complete all combat waves. Since you say that the sith raid is supposed to be more challenging than DSTB than it is clear that your "target goal" is to not have guilds under ~170M gp completing the heroic sith raid. And I can further assume that 145M GP is the target for a 3-day T6.

    I appreciate the transparency even though you can't divulge the exact numbers.
  • Daishi
    718 posts Member
    Options
    @CG_RyDiggs
    My question (If you manage to get to it Monday) is: I can fully understand the need to close the infinite loop. ST Han was broken with his interaction and it trivialized the new raid. However did the developers consider any other ways to fix this issue?

    Why was the decision made to completely destroy the viability of so many characters instead of simply adjusting the raid mechanic in such a way that closed the infinite loop, similar to how you closed the nightsister zombie issue?

    Do the developers intend for us to use mechanics and skill interactions to increase our damage in the raid, or do they expect us simply to grow larger rosters so we can throw more toons at it in a mindless grind?

    If you did not intend for guilds to complete the new content so soon, why not release the raid without the heroic version first, and then whenever the gear/level/mod cap is changed, release the heroic version at a time that you actually intend for players to be able to defeat it.
  • Options
    I’ve got to give @CG_RyDiggs credit for coming on here and jumping into the fire. It’s a no win situation to come in and respond to our frustrations, but he’s trying. I’m certainly not happy about the raid changes, but I’ll acknowledge his brave attempt at communication.
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