I'm sorry but to have a unique team, with 2 legendary chars, one of hero journey and equipped with at least 4 zetas, that can reach 10% of a heroic phase (maybe 12% with 6 zetas and an RNGesus) and call this "break of the spirit of raid" seems to me a slap in the face of its player base.
Of course, the STHan "trick" should not continue to work, I think most are quiet about it, but nerf the mechanics of other 16 chars because of this is UNACCEPTABLE.
The worst part is that some members of this community seem to have no connection with the AE / CG (although I doubt it), defending the correctness of failures (yes that was a failure of the testers) with a greater restriction of abilities.
Worse still if this update comes without the correction of the many bugs that benefit the raid bosses.
I hope you will rethink this "philosophy" because it obviously did not please the community.
Sorry for my bad english, I hope my text is understandable.
I think the drop in health will encourage people to at least try again, but at best it might be a short term spike of interest when everything else remains the same.
What else really needs to be done atleast from a perception pov is either change the lower tier raids to reflect the recommended toons or just get rid of it so people can't see the recommendations.
I think people are weary. We all remember the jump from NAAT to HAAT and how nothing worked and we had to relearn what worked in HAAT. Because of this nobody (at least in my guild) finds theory crafting worthwhile on lower tiers. Most are content to hang back, wait for other people to figure it out then stsrt working on the toons from there.
But mainly just change the recommendations. Nothing fans the flames more than people feeling they're being misled.
Who the fudge cares about the freaking recommendations? That's just something you blame when things go south. Sure, they don't make sence, but they never made sence. But seriously, that's like the last thing they need to worry about.
I'm not even going to go into it other than say perception is reality. I know that doesn't fit with your style of making sweeping generalisation but hey, there's plenty of posts in this thread alone of people frustrated with the recommendations.
You can dismiss them all you want, but an angry and frustrated player is still angry and frustrated even if you don't approve of their reasoning.
By all means, continue to be angry and frustrated for all the wrong reasons, that's your choice. Just keep in mind that just because you're angry and frustrated, it doesn't automatically mean that you're right.
i'm sure that there are people that really think the recommendations are a real issue and a big part of their frustration with the raid. Because they think that, it's automatically true right? perception is reality and all that. I get that, to a certain extent it's even true. However, would they have liked the raid if the recommendations were correct? will they like the raid more once the recommendations are fixed? I'm just going to make a sweeping generalisation and say no, ofcourse not. Feel free to disagree, but remember you're the one saying that reducing the health of the raid won't make it more fun because "nothing changes".
What is wrong with you? And who died and made you the God of all knowledge? You must be a very lonely person to sit on the forums day in and day out bashing other people's opinions as if they have no right to them. Go get a life and leave people along for once.
I'm a wrong though?
Doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. You could be or they could be. People are addressing their thoughts and opinions to the devs, and, they have that right to do so. You have your thoughts and are more than welcome to express that. But, when you jump into every post on here and leave your "knowledge" it becomes annoying. Say what you gotta say and move on. As far as I'm concerned, they're gonna do what they want irreguardless. You keep justifying the reduced health. How about you check it again. Significant reduction to expose compared to a slightly reduced health. Last I checked slightly and significantly aren't equal in their meaning when applied to quantity. But, please, Stop jamming the forums with your greatness. I'd like to be able to see what others think without having to roll through hundreds of your degrading posts.
The slight drop in health ins't going to solve all the problems players have with this raid, but can we atleast agree that the incredibly large health pool is the main reason people complain? Look at viserys' post, another great example of the dmg being so low that it makes using the team unfun. There are probably quite a few examples out there of teams that actually work, but aren't recognized as working teams because the dmg is so gosh darn low. (especially compared to the numbers JTR was pulling). It's all relative. RTJ isn't more fun to use, but seeying those 10m+ scores makes her way more fun to use.
No, the health pool isn't the main reason I'm complaining. This raid is mechanically bad. That's why I'm complaining. Case in point, for me Rey is more fun to use because I can actually use her kit reliably, which simply can't be said for most teams in this raid.
Looking at phase 1 as an example, the health pool isn't the main problem. Buffs are a liability, which limits team comps unless you can field an always available dispeller (Rey got around this not only because she dispels, but because Trooper can spam his special [which dispels] as long as he's not debuffed). Debuff teams don't reliably work. Bounty Hunters, even with their event bonus, don't work because they're either too fragile (IG88) or too reliant on debuffs (Dengar) or Thermals (Zam and Greedo) or their basic (Cad). Basics, assists, and counters are all a detriment, so throw out Luke lead, most Jedi teams, Pheonix, and anyone who only has one special... and what are we left with?
And on top of all this the phase specific ability is poorly designed to boot. Nihilus just didn't use annihilate when he should have for no discernible reason so now I wasted Unbreakable Will and someone will likely die next turn. Or in the heroic where RNG deigned that he get a third turn so he annihilates when the player wasn't ready.
i don't know about all that. I'm fine with JTR's dmg numbers in all raids, it's just unfortunate that all the other teams (except maybe DT teams) suck in comparrison.
...
And here's what I'm getting at. Rey isn't doing 20%+ damage (or even 10%). Other teams don't suck in comparison, they just suck. Because CG designed it that way. They did their best to account for everything here to keep us from building any super squads, but the end result was that it's difficult to build anything that doesn't just feel like you are trudging through mud.
Except for Rey, because the unresistable portions of her kit make her feel good because she does what her kit says she does. A novel idea that...
But here's the big problem with the current party line:
Lowering the health makes other teams suck a bit less in comparrison and maybe we wouldn't have to chip away 0.5% or less at the time. But i doubt they reduce the health enough for that to happen.
You yourself don't believe that the health decrease is going to be sufficient to truly make other teams viable... so why are you debating with people exactly? If Rey is "reigned in," and goes from doing 6% to 8% down to ~3%, and everyone else goes from 1% to ~1.3% how is that good for us? It's the same crummy slog, but now no one feels fun doing it...
Doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. You could be or they could be. People are addressing their thoughts and opinions to the devs, and, they have that right to do so. You have your thoughts and are more than welcome to express that. But, when you jump into every post on here and leave your "knowledge" it becomes annoying. Say what you gotta say and move on. As far as I'm concerned, they're gonna do what they want irreguardless. You keep justifying the reduced health. How about you check it again. Significant reduction to expose compared to a slightly reduced health. Last I checked slightly and significantly aren't equal in their meaning when applied to quantity. But, please, Stop jamming the forums with your greatness. I'd like to be able to see what others think without having to roll through hundreds of your degrading posts.
They do have an ignore function in the forums. Not defending either perspective but if he is that annoying to you use that ignore function so you dont see his posts anymore...
I think the drop in health will encourage people to at least try again, but at best it might be a short term spike of interest when everything else remains the same.
What else really needs to be done atleast from a perception pov is either change the lower tier raids to reflect the recommended toons or just get rid of it so people can't see the recommendations.
I think people are weary. We all remember the jump from NAAT to HAAT and how nothing worked and we had to relearn what worked in HAAT. Because of this nobody (at least in my guild) finds theory crafting worthwhile on lower tiers. Most are content to hang back, wait for other people to figure it out then stsrt working on the toons from there.
But mainly just change the recommendations. Nothing fans the flames more than people feeling they're being misled.
Who the fudge cares about the freaking recommendations? That's just something you blame when things go south. Sure, they don't make sence, but they never made sence. But seriously, that's like the last thing they need to worry about.
I'm not even going to go into it other than say perception is reality. I know that doesn't fit with your style of making sweeping generalisation but hey, there's plenty of posts in this thread alone of people frustrated with the recommendations.
You can dismiss them all you want, but an angry and frustrated player is still angry and frustrated even if you don't approve of their reasoning.
By all means, continue to be angry and frustrated for all the wrong reasons, that's your choice. Just keep in mind that just because you're angry and frustrated, it doesn't automatically mean that you're right.
i'm sure that there are people that really think the recommendations are a real issue and a big part of their frustration with the raid. Because they think that, it's automatically true right? perception is reality and all that. I get that, to a certain extent it's even true. However, would they have liked the raid if the recommendations were correct? will they like the raid more once the recommendations are fixed? I'm just going to make a sweeping generalisation and say no, ofcourse not. Feel free to disagree, but remember you're the one saying that reducing the health of the raid won't make it more fun because "nothing changes".
What is wrong with you? And who died and made you the God of all knowledge? You must be a very lonely person to sit on the forums day in and day out bashing other people's opinions as if they have no right to them. Go get a life and leave people along for once.
I'm a wrong though?
Doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. You could be or they could be. People are addressing their thoughts and opinions to the devs, and, they have that right to do so. You have your thoughts and are more than welcome to express that. But, when you jump into every post on here and leave your "knowledge" it becomes annoying. Say what you gotta say and move on. As far as I'm concerned, they're gonna do what they want irreguardless. You keep justifying the reduced health. How about you check it again. Significant reduction to expose compared to a slightly reduced health. Last I checked slightly and significantly aren't equal in their meaning when applied to quantity. But, please, Stop jamming the forums with your greatness. I'd like to be able to see what others think without having to roll through hundreds of your degrading posts.
i'm sorry you feel that way. To be fair, people jumped on my comments about as much as i jumped on theirs. I'm also sorry if my comments made you feel inferior, that was not my intention at all.
As for checking again, i know they're only going to reduce the health slight, i wish they reduced it signifcantly. That would make alot of our problems dissappear without having to change the raid mechanics. Maybe i'm just not explaning it properly and that's why people keep disagreeing with me. Or maybe i'm just repeating myself, and they're repeating themselves and it's annoying to read. i don't know.
Thanks for the feedback though. You're a stand up guy !
Fix rewards in the raid, so we get rewards, and not pieces we have 1000's of already
Play your own game, we play it, we know when someone hasn't.
JTR is still new, she's already been passed on by Empire in Arena, now she's useless in raid, you don't get this?
The raid is just a wall to hit our heads on.
CG's been eroding trust for months now. Stop asking for it and show us a reason to give it.
To that end - it seems clear you'll release a toon for $$$ soon that'll do great in the raid
Did I mention the raid rewards really are terrible? Because, it's clear you don't get that is full on half the issue - you want us beta-testers to bang our head on your new content and then give gear we don't need. And this is clearly okay with you.
Things like "Soon" with your cutsie tm.... "wait and see" "slightly" "barely" "small" well...
Because we're getting a little sick of the trolling CG. When you say your "listening" but you never follow up on a single thing any one asks for and you continue on, proving time and again you don't play your own game.
Maybe fix some of the character bugs WE are asking for. Give some of the QoL WE wanted. Prove you're listening - maybe next time one of these trash fires light up it won't be quite so tilted against you.
Yeah, I'd like to hear if 1200 comments if enough to not railroad changes... listen, evaluate and give concrete, substantial answers. Doublespeak and company lines aren't gonna cut it.
Probable wondering why he couldn't give us something positive to talk about over the weekend. Heck, anything would have been better than those scripted responses.
It think trying to craft responses that will placate the community is proving a more difficult challenge than expected.
Ok. Here I present a deep analysis about the changes of the sith raid and some of the consequences.
The list is however not complete, and may sometimes involve personal opinion. Please note that I can be inaccurate, I could also possibly make mistakes in the counting, I am not a professional statistician.
Before I begin, I want to say Fearsome Foe on Nihilus and Traya are broken, should be reworked or replaced.
Phase 1
In medias res, the health pool decrease will cause much lower damage for teams which depend on either expose or deathmark. So, this includes the two most effective teams, JTR and Imperial Troopers. Given that these two were the only teams which offered some usable strategy for p1, the remaining is the Thermal Detonator team, but this one is also a liablity, due to the stacking tenacity (not to mention that it is also a health percentage based team). The only one team which wasnt nerfed is the Thrawn led Magmatrooper team with Magma modded for tenacity, which I would say has a potential for scoring about 1 million, probably a bit more if Deathmark is on Nihilus. Meanwhile there are still issues with Nihilus, who sometimes doesnt use his Annihilate, when the coolodwn has gone. (this problem is squared on heroic, where you cant tell if he goes two or three times in advance)
So, again, Fearsome Foe is not compatible with Nihilus kit design and it makes the special raid ability practically useless.
Phase 2
The least affectid phase is probably phase 2, mainly due to the fact that it is nearly a flawless design. The Pain mechanic is a great addition, and the Soothe special is really useful here.
However, I feel it unnecessary giving Sion stacking Tenacity when, he is already immune to TM reduction. I would rather set it to a certain preset value which is high enough to challenge even the highest potency characters. Fearsome Foe is OK here, nothing crazy, however I would say the double and triple attacks are unnecessary, due to the high counter chance. My suggestion is to remove double attack and increase the counter chance on Suffering from 60% to 75% or 80%.
The health percentage issues also apply to this phase, we will see lower damage output.
P3 and P4 aka Damage triggered bonuses
The change mainly adresses the TM gain issue of ST Han, but it reaches beyond that as the list of the affected characters indicates in the dev. notes (which is indeed incomplete).
This change might or might not be questionable, we have to deal with it.
What it shows is NOT that Bonds of weakness' was broken, rather the fact that the unique 'Lord of Betrayal' and the idea of stacking speed, which was ment to be the barrier of all possible exploits has failed. My opinion is that they should have rethought and reworked the current 'Fearsome Foe' system rather than importing it from the current raids.
After the STH exploit it became obvious that the stacking speed is not the ideal solution. And with this update this problem is rather patched than properly reworked.
The Han type of teams were indeed able to deal huge damage, however it is usually forgotten that the STH team is really hard to get it worked. Setting up this team needs a lot of tries and even if one could have it going, the RNG can mess everything up easily. So, Han himself is not a guarantee for high damage, he requires one of the two leads which can remove TM zetad (Zader, Zasajj).
There is also a better TM loop team, however untested, which requires 3 zeta pieces and still offer an estimilated 10% fail risk per turn on avarage (Zader, Zavage, DT(z) Krennic, B2).
My concern is that this in-game mechanic is ancient and many design involves it, and this "fix" relativizes the use of these designs and this creates an anomaly and with this instance there is a potential that future updates would "overwrite" existing game mechanics, relativizing what truely is WAI. This philosophy is unhealthy, this solution cannot be justified by any explanation.
My suggestion instead of this would be the following:
Simply increase Trayas TM gain provided by Fersome Foe to 10%. (and remove the stacking speed)
If we take the example of the most effective TM loop team I mentioned before, this would cause the increase of the avarage fail risk per turn from ~10% to ~23%. And in some specific instances it would go up above 30% possibly, depending on the TM reduction RNG.
Statistically, this would reduce the avarage damage output of this team composition by 50% (half). Sure, it would be still possible to solo p3, but the possibility for taking 100 turn before Traya is way below 1%, and I doubt 100 turns would be enought to beat the phase.
All in all, it would be the situation like when a small child asks the his parents to use the scrissors, and mother gives him a smaller, more secure scrissor instead of the one adults use.
With TM loop teams, we play with risks. Rather than disabling the teams, it would be more sophisticated move to just higher the fail risk directly or indirectly.
I dont think P4 needs anything to be added, It is basicly all previous phases combined.
@CG_RyDiggs@CG_Leviathan , I hope my voice is heard and you really revise the functional usefullness of Fearsome Foe and Traya's unique.
And next time please consider releasing an open beta before the initial release of a new content. It worked with Territory War, and I dont see a reason why wouldn't have worked with the new raid.
First But 66 order, couple days ago.
Let's talk about solutions instead of only problems. Real solutions.
No, the health pool isn't the main reason I'm complaining. This raid is mechanically bad. That's why I'm complaining. Case in point, for me Rey is more fun to use because I can actually use her kit reliably, which simply can't be said for most teams in this raid.
Looking at phase 1 as an example, the health pool isn't the main problem. Buffs are a liability, which limits team comps unless you can field an always available dispeller (Rey got around this not only because she dispels, but because Trooper can spam his special [which dispels] as long as he's not debuffed). Debuff teams don't reliably work. Bounty Hunters, even with their event bonus, don't work because they're either too fragile (IG88) or too reliant on debuffs (Dengar) or Thermals (Zam and Greedo) or their basic (Cad). Basics, assists, and counters are all a detriment, so throw out Luke lead, most Jedi teams, Pheonix, and anyone who only has one special... and what are we left with?
Is this really that much different than hAAT p1 at the time? Coincedentilly that raid also caught alot of flack... but in hindsight it really wasn't that bad. I for one enjoyed tackling that raid, frustrating at times, but fun aswell.
Also, to me it sounds like you enjoy JTR because she was doing alot of damage, wich is one of the reasons i enjoy using JTR. Like i said earlier, i would have really enjoyed attacking with wedge rebels if it wasn't for the rediculoulsy low damage, especially compared to JTR teams. Apparantly people dislike it when i say things like this, but i'm reasonably sure alot of us would have enjoyed fighting with a wedge team alot more if they did 5% dmg instead of barely breaking 0.6% dmg. I think it's fair to say that part of the joy comes from the amount of dmg you can do. There are more teams that "work", but just do too little dmg for it to really be fun.
obviously alot of teams aren't going to work, just like alot of teams don't work in the rancor and AAT. While difficult to recgonize at times, that's also part of the fun.
And on top of all this the phase specific ability is poorly designed to boot. Nihilus just didn't use annihilate when he should have for no discernible reason so now I wasted Unbreakable Will and someone will likely die next turn. Or in the heroic where RNG deigned that he get a third turn so he annihilates when the player wasn't ready.
And this is just phase 1...
I agree, it's poorly designed. There are more buggs that need to be fixed in this raid. But would you consider it the main reason you're complaining?
And here's what I'm getting at. Rey isn't doing 20%+ damage (or even 10%). Other teams don't suck in comparison, they just suck. Because CG designed it that way. They did their best to account for everything here to keep us from building any super squads, but the end result was that it's difficult to build anything that doesn't just feel like you are trudging through mud.
I feel like we're saying the same thing here. I'm blaming the JTR nerf on other teams just sucking in comparrison, that's why they felt the need to tone down JTR. I haven't heard anything about DT being nerfed, same principle aplies to why he does alot of damage, he just does less dmg and i believe isn't getting nerfed because of that.
i didn't feel like JTR was doing too much dmg, the rest was doing too little dmg.
Except for Rey, because the unresistable portions of her kit make her feel good because she does what her kit says she does. A novel idea that...
Well, doing 6-8% dmg instead of less than 1% does that to a team
But here's the big problem with the current party line:
You yourself don't believe that the health decrease is going to be sufficient to truly make other teams viable... so why are you debating with people exactly? If Rey is "reigned in," and goes from doing 6% to 8% down to ~3%, and everyone else goes from 1% to ~1.3% how is that good for us? It's the same crummy slog, but now no one feels fun doing it...
Yes, and that's really unfortunate for us! Imo lowering the health even more (than i believe they're going to lower the health) is a better sollution than changing some of the raid mechanics, mainly the stacking tenacity. Wich apparantly alot of commentors seems to agree on is the thing that should happen.
Also because people call it a double nerf to expose while the health reduction is not a nerf on expose. That's disliking the raid for the wrong reason imo. In general i feel like people are disliking this raid for the wrong reasons causing them to dislike the raid even more. The game is supposed to be fun, sometimes a different perspective can help with that. Sometimes it just peeves people off
Now, that's entirely not true. People dislike the Raid because it stifles their roster, funneling it into a few teams (JTR, Troopers, etc.). Then tell people the teams their being pushed toward are no longer going to be as effective, then yes, people dislike it.
Now, that's entirely not true. People dislike the Raid because it stifles their roster, funneling it into a few teams (JTR, Troopers, etc.). Then tell people the teams their being pushed toward are no longer going to be as effective, then yes, people dislike it.
Now, that's entirely not true. People dislike the Raid because it stifles their roster, funneling it into a few teams (JTR, Troopers, etc.). Then tell people the teams their being pushed toward are no longer going to be as effective, then yes, people dislike it.
Isn't that the same thing i'm saying?
Yes and no. It's the raid mechanics that are stifling teams, not the health pool or Expose damage. That's our difference.
Now, that's entirely not true. People dislike the Raid because it stifles their roster, funneling it into a few teams (JTR, Troopers, etc.). Then tell people the teams their being pushed toward are no longer going to be as effective, then yes, people dislike it.
Isn't that the same thing i'm saying?
Yes and no. It's the raid mechanics that are stifling teams, not the health pool or Expose damage. That's our difference.
And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
We'll probably never find out though, since we're both not going to like what ea/cg decides to do.
Now, that's entirely not true. People dislike the Raid because it stifles their roster, funneling it into a few teams (JTR, Troopers, etc.). Then tell people the teams their being pushed toward are no longer going to be as effective, then yes, people dislike it.
Isn't that the same thing i'm saying?
Yes and no. It's the raid mechanics that are stifling teams, not the health pool or Expose damage. That's our difference.
And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
We'll probably never find out though, since we're both not going to like what ea/cg decides to do.
Is this really that much different than hAAT p1 at the time? Coincedentilly that raid also caught alot of flack... but in hindsight it really wasn't that bad. I for one enjoyed tackling that raid, frustrating at times, but fun aswell.
Also, to me it sounds like you enjoy JTR because she was doing alot of damage, wich is one of the reasons i enjoy using JTR. Like i said earlier, i would have really enjoyed attacking with wedge rebels if it wasn't for the rediculoulsy low damage, especially compared to JTR teams. Apparantly people dislike it when i say things like this, but i'm reasonably sure alot of us would have enjoyed fighting with a wedge team alot more if they did 5% dmg instead of barely breaking 0.6% dmg. I think it's fair to say that part of the joy comes from the amount of dmg you can do. There are more teams that "work", but just do too little dmg for it to really be fun.
obviously alot of teams aren't going to work, just like alot of teams don't work in the rancor and AAT. While difficult to recgonize at times, that's also part of the fun.
You're missing my point here, but I'll go with your Wedge example to try and be more clear. Them lowering hp isn't going to do much for Wedge. Sure his percentage damage will go up. For the sake of argument let's say it even doubles, so you're now doing 1.2%... But he's still feeding Nihilus protection because his primary damage dealer is his basic. He's still not getting bonus damage from defense down because no one can apply it through the insane base and stacking tenacity. The bar moved a little more, sure, but his kit still doesn't work, and he's more the rule than the exception.
So no, it really isn't about the damage for me. It's about the fact that they designed a raid where the overwhelming majority of teams cannot function as described in their kit.
I agree, it's poorly designed. There are more buggs that need to be fixed in this raid. But would you consider it the main reason you're complaining?
The overall failure to design compelling and balanced gameplay and at least something close to a bug free experience is my main complaint yes. Phase 1 was just the quickest example
I feel like we're saying the same thing here. I'm blaming the JTR nerf on other teams just sucking in comparrison, that's why they felt the need to tone down JTR. I haven't heard anything about DT being nerfed, same principle aplies to why he does alot of damage, he just does less dmg and i believe isn't getting nerfed because of that.
i didn't feel like JTR was doing too much dmg, the rest was doing too little dmg.
We're not saying the same thing though. I'm saying Rey is performing appropriately as is. Everyone else doesn't "suck by comparison," they just suck, and that's the problem I would like them to fix. Make more teams capable of doing well, not just move the finish line so doing poorly looks less bad. Now admittedly P1 is the worst offender, but 4 is nearly as bad and 2 and 3 aren't that far behind. The design of the raid is such that the entire community has found 1 team that does reasonably in P1. That's absurd. McMole put up a road map today where he essentially said 'I know you guys don't want to hear Rey, but she's pretty much all we have for phase 1.' Over 100 characters and we have 1 team that does anything, and that team is the problem!? No.
Yes, and that's really unfortunate for us! Imo lowering the health even more (than i believe they're going to lower the health) is a better sollution than changing some of the raid mechanics, mainly the stacking tenacity. Wich apparantly alot of commentors seems to agree on is the thing that should happen.
Again, people hate the stacking tenacity because 1: the tenacity is already pretty high and they have a crazy amount of immunities, which should be enough and 2: It makes having even a chance of using any debuff characters (like those Bounty hunters that have an event buff but still suck) completely RNG dependent on when the stacks refresh.
Also because people call it a double nerf to expose while the health reduction is not a nerf on expose. That's disliking the raid for the wrong reason imo.
On this we can agree. People calling it a double nerf don't understand how percentages work, or aren't lining the details, and this line of thought is incorrect.
In general i feel like people are disliking this raid for the wrong reasons causing them to dislike the raid even more. The game is supposed to be fun, sometimes a different perspective can help with that. Sometimes it just peeves people off
It is a game, and it is suppose to be fun. But in all the varied responses here, one recurring one, even among a lot of the people who are ok with nerfing Rey, is that this raid is not fun. It's a chore for bad rewards (unless you can complete heroic). A different perspective is unlikely to make people enjoy this. You can certainly keep trying, but if I were a gambling man I wouldn't like your odds.
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
We've had an entire @CG_RyDiggs 3 day weekend to become rational.
And since when does a paid service provider not listen to it's customers? It's not like I expect them to cater to our every whim, but when it feels like everything is being dismissed out of hand, then yes, people conplain.
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
...
I hope that isn't directed at my long responses...
I feel like @leef is being very reasonable and specific in his discussion, and I tried to be very specific in my responses, but I often find my writing style often conveys high levels emotion when I'm generally just 'slightly miffed.'
That said I agree, tempers aren't helpful. So hopefully everyone can remain at least somewhat civil.
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
We've had an entire @CG_RyDiggs 3 day weekend to become rational.
And since when does a paid service provider not listen to it's customers? It's not like I expect them to cater to our every whim, but when it feels like everything is being dismissed out of hand, then yes, people conplain.
I'm not saying don't complain!
If you think there are legitimate grounds for complaint then you should absolutely complain.
But there is a difference between "OMG, this is so broken, **** everyone involved in it and the entire planet" and "this could be better".
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
We've had an entire @CG_RyDiggs 3 day weekend to become rational.
And since when does a paid service provider not listen to it's customers? It's not like I expect them to cater to our every whim, but when it feels like everything is being dismissed out of hand, then yes, people conplain.
I'm not saying don't complain!
If you think there are legitimate grounds for complaint then you should absolutely complain.
But there is a difference between "OMG, this is so broken, **** everyone involved in it and the entire planet" and "this could be better".
I would never **** the entire planet, I still have stun cuffs to farm! Maybe if I add a winkie emoji it will help...
Wow, there are a lot of hot tempers in this thread! I'm not sure that's helpful, though. If I were the Devs then I wouldn't be reading half of the stuff posted here, if that. Who wants to read yet another rant?
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
We've had an entire @CG_RyDiggs 3 day weekend to become rational.
And since when does a paid service provider not listen to it's customers? It's not like I expect them to cater to our every whim, but when it feels like everything is being dismissed out of hand, then yes, people conplain.
I'm not saying don't complain!
If you think there are legitimate grounds for complaint then you should absolutely complain.
But there is a difference between "OMG, this is so broken, **** everyone involved in it and the entire planet" and "this could be better".
I would never **** the entire planet, I still have stun cuffs to farm! Maybe if I add a winkie emoji it will help...
I'm not saying my comments are directed at you. I'm not saying they're directed at anyone. Truth be told, I don't tend to pay attention to people's names so I don't know which messages I've been reading were from you and which weren't.
I'm just saying there is a lot of unhelpful aggression and anger in this thread in general and more could be achieved if people took the time to calm down before piling in.
I was interested in this thread for the first 33 or so pages. Nothing more boring than a couple of people try to outnerd one another in an open forum. It’s officially a snooze fest.
Please consider twice before clicking the thread then.
They don't care about anything you say they'll just throw in a little fix to distract you what was the biggest complaint before to much time ok here's a couple of sims now we'll throw in a 5 day raid for garbage rewards,how about territory wars that takes a whole day for garbage not enough ok we'll put in territory battles with better rewards but it'll take you all week oh and unless you 7* a character we just came out with days before you won't be able to fill your platoons to get max rewards.
It is a game, and it is suppose to be fun. But in all the varied responses here, one recurring one, even among a lot of the people who are ok with nerfing Rey, is that this raid is not fun. It's a chore for bad rewards (unless you can complete heroic). A different perspective is unlikely to make people enjoy this. You can certainly keep trying, but if I were a gambling man I wouldn't like your odds.
haha, it's a lost cause indeed.
I'm not going to go through your post point by point again. I do however still feel like you're being a bit dishonest with yourself about not enjoying the raid solely due to the mechanics and not because of the low dmg numbers.
I also still feel like we're saying the same thing about JTR in comparrison to other teams, maybe i'm just wording it weirdly.
I think a comment from @CG_RyDiggs or anybody at CG might help right now. It's about 3:30 pm in Sacramento and it feels a bit like CG gave up on answering any of the vital questions that have been asked over the weekend.
Replies
Of course, the STHan "trick" should not continue to work, I think most are quiet about it, but nerf the mechanics of other 16 chars because of this is UNACCEPTABLE.
The worst part is that some members of this community seem to have no connection with the AE / CG (although I doubt it), defending the correctness of failures (yes that was a failure of the testers) with a greater restriction of abilities.
Worse still if this update comes without the correction of the many bugs that benefit the raid bosses.
I hope you will rethink this "philosophy" because it obviously did not please the community.
Sorry for my bad english, I hope my text is understandable.
Doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. You could be or they could be. People are addressing their thoughts and opinions to the devs, and, they have that right to do so. You have your thoughts and are more than welcome to express that. But, when you jump into every post on here and leave your "knowledge" it becomes annoying. Say what you gotta say and move on. As far as I'm concerned, they're gonna do what they want irreguardless. You keep justifying the reduced health. How about you check it again. Significant reduction to expose compared to a slightly reduced health. Last I checked slightly and significantly aren't equal in their meaning when applied to quantity. But, please, Stop jamming the forums with your greatness. I'd like to be able to see what others think without having to roll through hundreds of your degrading posts.
No, the health pool isn't the main reason I'm complaining. This raid is mechanically bad. That's why I'm complaining. Case in point, for me Rey is more fun to use because I can actually use her kit reliably, which simply can't be said for most teams in this raid.
Looking at phase 1 as an example, the health pool isn't the main problem. Buffs are a liability, which limits team comps unless you can field an always available dispeller (Rey got around this not only because she dispels, but because Trooper can spam his special [which dispels] as long as he's not debuffed). Debuff teams don't reliably work. Bounty Hunters, even with their event bonus, don't work because they're either too fragile (IG88) or too reliant on debuffs (Dengar) or Thermals (Zam and Greedo) or their basic (Cad). Basics, assists, and counters are all a detriment, so throw out Luke lead, most Jedi teams, Pheonix, and anyone who only has one special... and what are we left with?
And on top of all this the phase specific ability is poorly designed to boot. Nihilus just didn't use annihilate when he should have for no discernible reason so now I wasted Unbreakable Will and someone will likely die next turn. Or in the heroic where RNG deigned that he get a third turn so he annihilates when the player wasn't ready.
And this is just phase 1...
And here's what I'm getting at. Rey isn't doing 20%+ damage (or even 10%). Other teams don't suck in comparison, they just suck. Because CG designed it that way. They did their best to account for everything here to keep us from building any super squads, but the end result was that it's difficult to build anything that doesn't just feel like you are trudging through mud.
Except for Rey, because the unresistable portions of her kit make her feel good because she does what her kit says she does. A novel idea that...
But here's the big problem with the current party line:
You yourself don't believe that the health decrease is going to be sufficient to truly make other teams viable... so why are you debating with people exactly? If Rey is "reigned in," and goes from doing 6% to 8% down to ~3%, and everyone else goes from 1% to ~1.3% how is that good for us? It's the same crummy slog, but now no one feels fun doing it...
They do have an ignore function in the forums. Not defending either perspective but if he is that annoying to you use that ignore function so you dont see his posts anymore...
i'm sorry you feel that way. To be fair, people jumped on my comments about as much as i jumped on theirs. I'm also sorry if my comments made you feel inferior, that was not my intention at all.
As for checking again, i know they're only going to reduce the health slight, i wish they reduced it signifcantly. That would make alot of our problems dissappear without having to change the raid mechanics. Maybe i'm just not explaning it properly and that's why people keep disagreeing with me. Or maybe i'm just repeating myself, and they're repeating themselves and it's annoying to read. i don't know.
Thanks for the feedback though. You're a stand up guy !
Yeah, I'd like to hear if 1200 comments if enough to not railroad changes... listen, evaluate and give concrete, substantial answers. Doublespeak and company lines aren't gonna cut it.
Probable wondering why he couldn't give us something positive to talk about over the weekend. Heck, anything would have been better than those scripted responses.
It think trying to craft responses that will placate the community is proving a more difficult challenge than expected.
Let's talk about solutions instead of only problems.
Real solutions.
Also, to me it sounds like you enjoy JTR because she was doing alot of damage, wich is one of the reasons i enjoy using JTR. Like i said earlier, i would have really enjoyed attacking with wedge rebels if it wasn't for the rediculoulsy low damage, especially compared to JTR teams. Apparantly people dislike it when i say things like this, but i'm reasonably sure alot of us would have enjoyed fighting with a wedge team alot more if they did 5% dmg instead of barely breaking 0.6% dmg. I think it's fair to say that part of the joy comes from the amount of dmg you can do. There are more teams that "work", but just do too little dmg for it to really be fun.
obviously alot of teams aren't going to work, just like alot of teams don't work in the rancor and AAT. While difficult to recgonize at times, that's also part of the fun.
I agree, it's poorly designed. There are more buggs that need to be fixed in this raid. But would you consider it the main reason you're complaining? I feel like we're saying the same thing here. I'm blaming the JTR nerf on other teams just sucking in comparrison, that's why they felt the need to tone down JTR. I haven't heard anything about DT being nerfed, same principle aplies to why he does alot of damage, he just does less dmg and i believe isn't getting nerfed because of that.
i didn't feel like JTR was doing too much dmg, the rest was doing too little dmg. Well, doing 6-8% dmg instead of less than 1% does that to a team
Yes, and that's really unfortunate for us! Imo lowering the health even more (than i believe they're going to lower the health) is a better sollution than changing some of the raid mechanics, mainly the stacking tenacity. Wich apparantly alot of commentors seems to agree on is the thing that should happen.
Also because people call it a double nerf to expose while the health reduction is not a nerf on expose. That's disliking the raid for the wrong reason imo. In general i feel like people are disliking this raid for the wrong reasons causing them to dislike the raid even more. The game is supposed to be fun, sometimes a different perspective can help with that. Sometimes it just peeves people off
Isn't that the same thing i'm saying?
Yes and no. It's the raid mechanics that are stifling teams, not the health pool or Expose damage. That's our difference.
And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
We'll probably never find out though, since we're both not going to like what ea/cg decides to do.
Amirite?!
So no, it really isn't about the damage for me. It's about the fact that they designed a raid where the overwhelming majority of teams cannot function as described in their kit.
The overall failure to design compelling and balanced gameplay and at least something close to a bug free experience is my main complaint yes. Phase 1 was just the quickest example
We're not saying the same thing though. I'm saying Rey is performing appropriately as is. Everyone else doesn't "suck by comparison," they just suck, and that's the problem I would like them to fix. Make more teams capable of doing well, not just move the finish line so doing poorly looks less bad. Now admittedly P1 is the worst offender, but 4 is nearly as bad and 2 and 3 aren't that far behind. The design of the raid is such that the entire community has found 1 team that does reasonably in P1. That's absurd. McMole put up a road map today where he essentially said 'I know you guys don't want to hear Rey, but she's pretty much all we have for phase 1.' Over 100 characters and we have 1 team that does anything, and that team is the problem!? No.
Again, not about percentages, it's about the fact that she can use her kit when no one else can.
Again, people hate the stacking tenacity because 1: the tenacity is already pretty high and they have a crazy amount of immunities, which should be enough and 2: It makes having even a chance of using any debuff characters (like those Bounty hunters that have an event buff but still suck) completely RNG dependent on when the stacks refresh.
On this we can agree. People calling it a double nerf don't understand how percentages work, or aren't lining the details, and this line of thought is incorrect.
It is a game, and it is suppose to be fun. But in all the varied responses here, one recurring one, even among a lot of the people who are ok with nerfing Rey, is that this raid is not fun. It's a chore for bad rewards (unless you can complete heroic). A different perspective is unlikely to make people enjoy this. You can certainly keep trying, but if I were a gambling man I wouldn't like your odds.
Maybe before posting people could take half an hour to calm down a bit and then offer something constructive? It might be more conducive to a positive result.
Remember the parable of the donkey with the stick and the carrot? You can hit it with a stick or you can dangle a carrot in front of it; both are methods of making the donkey move forward. But you get a better result with the carrot.
People are the same. Be nice and less aggressive and better results are achieved.
We've had an entire @CG_RyDiggs 3 day weekend to become rational.
And since when does a paid service provider not listen to it's customers? It's not like I expect them to cater to our every whim, but when it feels like everything is being dismissed out of hand, then yes, people conplain.
I hope that isn't directed at my long responses...
I feel like @leef is being very reasonable and specific in his discussion, and I tried to be very specific in my responses, but I often find my writing style often conveys high levels emotion when I'm generally just 'slightly miffed.'
That said I agree, tempers aren't helpful. So hopefully everyone can remain at least somewhat civil.
I'm not saying don't complain!
If you think there are legitimate grounds for complaint then you should absolutely complain.
But there is a difference between "OMG, this is so broken, **** everyone involved in it and the entire planet" and "this could be better".
I would never **** the entire planet, I still have stun cuffs to farm! Maybe if I add a winkie emoji it will help...
I'm not saying my comments are directed at you. I'm not saying they're directed at anyone. Truth be told, I don't tend to pay attention to people's names so I don't know which messages I've been reading were from you and which weren't.
I'm just saying there is a lot of unhelpful aggression and anger in this thread in general and more could be achieved if people took the time to calm down before piling in.
Please consider twice before clicking the thread then.
haha, it's a lost cause indeed.
I'm not going to go through your post point by point again. I do however still feel like you're being a bit dishonest with yourself about not enjoying the raid solely due to the mechanics and not because of the low dmg numbers.
I also still feel like we're saying the same thing about JTR in comparrison to other teams, maybe i'm just wording it weirdly.
Edited the time was a bit off.