Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
If this was implemented, I'm sure you would see several of the competitive guilds split up in a number of smaller guilds when new raids are introduced in order for more of them to gain top rank rewards and unlock new characters faster. Yes, it would hurt their performance in TB/TW, but some guilds will always strive to unlock the newest stuff first.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
If this was implemented, I'm sure you would see several of the competitive guilds split up in a number of smaller guilds when new raids are introduced in order for more of them to gain top rank rewards and unlock new characters faster. Yes, it would hurt their performance in TB/TW, but some guilds will always strive to unlock the newest stuff first.
You must have completely skipped the part where I said "reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild... " - for that very reason.
Full 50 person guilds all working together should still get the best rewards. The rewards for "scaled" guilds should never be better than a full guild.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
People should expect gear not to be exclusive. That's a standard that CG themselves has maintained since the inception of this game.
Who cares that they've always had an advantage, it was surmountable before, not it isn't. +12 speed for everyone before mods isn't a piddly little thing not worth mentioning. It is absolutely 100% a valid complaint about this balance shift that CG dropped on us out of nowhere that goes against everything they've done before.
The fact that eventually other guilds MAY gain access to the hSTR is irrelevant. The fact that they eventually plan on adding other ways to get it is also irrelevant. The only point worth mentioning right here is that gear is now exclusive.
CG slapped thousands of players across the face with this unexpected, pointlessly elitist change. Far, far more than they've helped with it.
Without plenty of people at the bottom, the top isn't very high up. Elitist attitudes that shunt away the complaints of those below them are always detrimental to the elitist over time. Sure maybe they can get further ahead, but if it breaks those below you, you actually end up worse off. With no community, swgoh would be a boring game.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
This game has also always been about goals and projects, in every aspect of the game.
Smaller guilds made up of players who didnt want to be competitive and have slower progress, is a choice. It's called being a casual player. Even getting gear at a slower rate doing a lower tier raid shows that. Now that they have no access to it (for an unknown period of time, which we know will not be permanent) it's an issue?
This would be the same situation when that guild couldn't do the HAAT? They would have to join a different guild because at the start people couldn't do it or it would take weeks for them to do regular, which was basically locking them out of gear too.
A guild is a group of like minded players (IMHO) if you dont feel like the group is playing at your level in any game where there is guild content, then it's your choice how you handle that, but yes you have to realize that those choices may have long term and short term effects.
I am not saying that the current reward structure doesnt need to be reconsidered but locking end game rewards behind end game content is fine with me and if that means that players choosing to not play end game content because they want to hang out with a certain group of players then that's their choice on how they grow and develop as a group and as a player.
The game doesnt need to immediately cater to casual players, they are choosing a slower pace to the game already. This gear will not be locked permanently and much like a new toon will have its exclusive period and that will end at some point.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
I think the harder issue here would be difficulty balance as a guild shrinks in size, we have already seen balance issues with a fixed size of guild.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
If you're getting into morals over a mobile game, you're probably overthinking it. If you want the gear do hstr. If you want your preferred guild stay there. People who are good enough to be in a guild that's can clear the raid are there because that's where they belong. It's progression and it's common sense that being in a guild below your GP would hinder your progression
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
This game has also always been about goals and projects, in every aspect of the game.
Smaller guilds made up of players who didnt want to be competitive and have slower progress, is a choice. It's called being a casual player. Even getting gear at a slower rate doing a lower tier raid shows that. Now that they have no access to it (for an unknown period of time, which we know will not be permanent) it's an issue?
This would be the same situation when that guild couldn't do the HAAT? They would have to join a different guild because at the start people couldn't do it or it would take weeks for them to do regular, which was basically locking them out of gear too.
A guild is a group of like minded players (IMHO) if you dont feel like the group is playing at your level in any game where there is guild content, then it's your choice how you handle that, but yes you have to realize that those choices may have long term and short term effects.
I am not saying that the current reward structure doesn't need to be reconsidered but locking end game rewards behind end game content is fine with me and if that means that players choosing to not play end game content because they want to hang out with a certain group of players then that's their choice on how they grow and develop as a group and as a player.
The game doesnt need to immediately cater to casual players, they are choosing a slower pace to the game already. This gear will not be locked permanently and much like a new toon will have its exclusive period and that will end at some point.
Gear was never end game content before. Guilds of all sizes could take down the tier necessary to get gear, it may have just taken a while. But refreshes and no time limit made it possible. Now it can only be gotten by those who can do heroic. HAAT was not the same situation. You could still get the gear, it just took longer.
I'm in a smaller guild. I have been taking 1st in fleet almost since I started, I have been taking 1st in squad for almost a year. The tier of raid my guild can take down has never kept me from being competitive in other aspects of the game before because I have always had other avenues to obtain gear than the heroic. It is an issue now because now I don't So when people drop those 2 pieces on their TFP and it makes him the same speed or faster than my Poe, I can't compete in this individual area of the game anymore because they changed the way gear is distributed. It is an issue now, and it isn't a minor one.
So you can say you're fine with locking end game rewards behind end game content, but to me that's still shifting the argument away from what we're talking about. The problem is that gear is now end game content. That shift of gear to end game content is what's cutting smaller guilds out of being competitive in every area of the game. It was never end game content before. Only characters were.
You can say that people chose to be non competitive by remaining in a smaller guild, and I say that's a bogus statement. I have always chosen to be competitive in all areas of the game except the guild raid leaderboard. Now they've tied that to every other area of the game when it never was before.
The longer this gear remains exclusive, the more of an outrage the big issue this represents is.
Well it was fun hitting first or second in arena for a few weeks. Back to the 100-200 range I guess.
That's the consequence of a small guild. What do you expect?
Well that's new. The consequence of being in a smaller guild used to be you had to wait longer to get gear. Now they just can't get it.
Nope, you still have to wait longer.
-eventually your guild will be capable of hSith and get the gear
-they have already stated that these gear pieces will be available elsewhere later
So if you’re ok with the existing trade off, good news!
No. Before every guild could take down the tier necessary to get the gear even if it took weeks. Now they can't get it.
Please stop with the purposefully oblivious statements.
Well maybe that's reason to join a hatr guild...if you want to stay competative anyways
That line of thinking is exactly what the problem is with making it hstr only. Shouldn't have to join a different guild to be competitive in the individual areas of the game.
If hstr rewards aren't supposed to help in individual areas of the game, where should they help? I'm just curious if you think that elite guilds shouldn't be allowed to progress their toons to g12+ because others willingly opt out of the opportunity.
Willingly opt out? By what stretch of the imagination did you come up with that malarkey?
The bonus guilds get by completing heroic has always been a character. Making it a character and extremely powerful gear as well is extremely imbalanced and unprecedented.
Of course the gear should help in individual areas of the game... Exactly the problem with making it heroic exclusive.
I think we are getting off topic.
The OP is choosing to opt out. He is saying his intentionally small guild cant compete. This is different than 2 full sized guild not being able to do the raid at the same level and the rewards there in.
Please stay on topic to this thread.
He is not even slightly opting out. He is complaining that the game has chosen to leave him no way to progress other than to opt out of his guild.
He is complaining that he can't progress unless he chooses to opt out. Forcing people to go to a different guild to progress and them not wanting to isn't even slightly close to them "opting out".
I don't think we are getting off topic. The topic of the thread is the ongoing destruction of smaller guilds. It references the new g12 gear being the root. All discussion involving the gear that the raid gives, how it affects members and guilds fall under this umbrella because even how it affects individual members affects what will happen to the guilds.
Every one of these topics is so interconnected it is impossible to separate them so discussing any of them isn't getting off topic.
The real problem in this thread is all the people who keep thinking that joining an HSTR raid is the resolution to the problem this thread is complaining of. No, that IS the problem, not the solution to it.
He is in a 40M GP guild, by choice. He is opting to be in a smaller and/or less active guild.
There is no reason someone choosing to be in a guild that does not filling in a minor checkmark set by the game (50 members) and made up of players at his same or similar level, should be competing at the top end of the game, or be able to complete "end game content".
That is opting out.
What you are talking about is full (45+) member guilds not being able to compete with similar guilds just because they are not able to get past p6 tier raid and graduate to heroic. There is a difference.
Please stay on topic of small guilds as the OP stated.
It is not opting out. So when the hSTR came out, did CG extend an offer to everyone to get into an hSTR guild? No, then he wasn't offered that as an option. He couldn't even opt in to that state, in no way is he opting out.
The issue that he's addressing is that smaller guilds are getting pushed out. Not because they have few members but because they have low gp. The issues that he are addressing apply to more guilds than ones in his exact situation and the title of the thread is destruction of smaller guilds, not destruction of guilds that aren't full of people. The topic includes every thing that has been under discussion here.
He has options, he is choosing his and expecting the game to cater to it. That would be exercising an option.
Their way, the topic is small guilds and please stick to that. I understand your take on the exclusive gear to a specific tier. This is not that discussion.
The discussion here is that smaller guilds should be have access to things they cannot achieve because they cannot complete the content.
Yes low GP means you are not up to that tier, and since they are in now way in competition with those higher GP who can, they will have to wait to access the content. That's called progression.
Opting out is declining an option presented to you. Not wanting to leave his guild isn't the same as turning down an offer to a HSTR capable guild. Possibly having the option of joining an hSTR if he looked into it and not looking into it isn't opting out.
His complaint is that by tying the gear to heroic only that his guild is no longer capable of competing. The competition he is referencing isn't guild ranking in raids. There is no competing in that and I'm sure he's well aware. The problem is how it affects everyone in his guild in the areas where they are competitive. Territory Wars. Arena, Squad. Now instead of maintaining, his guild is falling further behind in all those areas, which directly slows the progression of those in his guild.
It's the shakeup of guilds that hSTR will now bring. He already had troubles building his guild up, now the bigger members will be leaving instead of more joining, and it all comes down to the gear being tied to that tier.
As stated, if gear weren't tied to heroic, any guild could access the gear, even if it took weeks to take down the proper tier to obtain it. I wouldn't call complaining about that locking out his guild asking the game to cater to him. I would call it asking the game to not cut him out for no reason. That's what tying the gear to heroic has done to his guild, and many more as well. They don't do this with any other raid. Why did they do it to this one?
This isn't my separate topic. This is exactly what he's complaining about. This situation is causing the destruction of smaller guilds.
I'm the leader in a 70 million GP guild. I'm told it takes about 150mill to do hSTR. I don't see his guild or situation as any different than mine.
Yes about 120M GP can do it, from the last post I saw.
A 40M GP (or even a 70M GP) if made up of roughly equal members, is competing with people in the same scenario as them, which means not doing heroic raid. Generally speaking are not in competition with people who are unlocking traya or the "end game" gear. Which makes sense as they are not completing "end game" content.
If your guild is not full of roughly equal members, than that is a choice to be in that situation and that is a choice to be less competitive than others you may be facing.
Will this mean the first time traya is unlocked or the first 1 or 2 piece of G12.5 gear show up you will be out classed. No. If you are facing players who have chosen to play at the "end game" content for "end game" rewards, over time they will out pace people who do not choose to do so. This has always been the case, with better rewards, early access to exclusive toons and higher rate of gear/resource income.
Will this gear remain exclusive forever, no. This is an advantage localized to guilds and players at equal ranking or in game lifetime. If the players guild is not at their equal "ranking or lifetime in game" they made choices along the road to be in that situation. No you shouldn't have to leave your guild, but you also dont have to accept lower level players when willing spots, or allow a lower level of commitment to the game. Those are all choices along the way, but it's not the game that did that.
I would like to point out the bigger issue here though. There are many people - about 80% of the people in guilds already doing HSith raids - since only the top 10 get the clearly better drops - that are being backed into a corner by this reward structure. In a few weeks the top 20% of those guilds will "lock in" as top 10 rosters, as their already-strong rosters will start having g12+ characters in them. Thus 80% of the current HSith guild members are going to be faced with tough choice:
1) Accept the slower rate of g12+ drops they're getting for finishing out of the top 10 - basically forever...and sacrifice arena slots to those who happen to be in the top 10 of their respective guilds.
OR
2) Move to another - slightly weaker - guild, where they can crack top 10 to keep up with their arena shardmates.
Any game structure that forces 80% of it's strongest, longest playing (many paying) customers to have to make that kind of decision is deeply flawed and extremely short-sighted.
Furthermore, the number of players that will have to make that type of choice will only increase as more guilds become HSith-capable.
You see, the issue isn't only a detriment to those in smaller guilds - it's to anyone who isn't currently finishing in the top 10 of HSith guilds, as they will likely never be able to catch up to those who already are. Period. There is no way around that mathematical fact. The drop rate differential for top 10 Heroic vs. everyone else is simply too large and too guaranteed.
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
If you're getting into morals over a mobile game, you're probably overthinking it. If you want the gear do hstr. If you want your preferred guild stay there. People who are good enough to be in a guild that's can clear the raid are there because that's where they belong. It's progression and it's common sense that being in a guild below your GP would hinder your progression
Of course not being in a top guild will hinder your progression, but there's a difference between hindering it and stopping it altogether. I've played so many mmorpgs it's ridiculous. Do you know how often I change guilds in them? Rare as all get out. I find it fun to build up to taking on the end game content rather than just joining those who can already do it. This is my choice and I don't mind slower progression because of it. Slower progression would mean getting the gear at a slower rate, it doesn't mean not getting it at all. I am advocating for slower progression for us rather than no progression for us.
Sure SOME people could choose to join a bigger guild instead to be able to get the gear, but you know what? No one ever had to make that choice before in this game. This is a new level of exclusivity. One that imbalances the game. It needs to be fixed. It is a big deal.
With a recent long-time member leaving my guild to join a HSITH guild I of course asked him why he felt the need to leave. His response was that keeping his arena rank (typically in the top 10) was just going to get harder and harder as more Trayas came on-line. The game has always been about counters. You face a monster G12 CLS rebel team and you counter it with a Nightmare ZPalp team. You face a monster G12 NS team and you counter it with an Imperial Trooper team. And the list goes on. Is Traya good? Well yeah but she can be beat like anyone else. So my desire to jump on the HSITH band wagon isn't that. Well this member left BEFORE they changed the reward structure to make gear exclusive to HSITH.
And that is a HUGE deal. As several people have stated gear has never been "exclusive" to an end-tier raid. The characters have been and I have zero issues with that. But now that the exclusive gear is tied to HSITH for who knows how long it widens the gap. What is monumentally different about this gap is that you don't have access to it UNLESS you are in a HSITH guild. I have been in contact with this member and now with exclusive HSITH raid rewards what is the incentive for him to come back to us? The answer is there isn't one unless he gets tired of gear...
Really for me it's about the journey. The guild I am in started out with 3 people and they were doing T2 Rancors when I joined. How good did it feel for me for us to beat HPIT the first time? It felt great. And then when HAAT came out it took us over 6 months to get ready for it. And again it was a monumental feeling to have put the work in to beat it. So the whole leaving my guild to go to another guild that has HSITH is just not what I want to do. Does it make me a casual player to have that mentality? I would argue no it doesn't. As a guild leader I just know we don't have the team composition to make HSITH a reality. In due time and effort we'll get there. I think this whole thread is a valid complaint about the destruction of smaller guilds. It really comes down to your definition of what is "small". For someone like me in about a 90M GP guild I'm sure many have felt the pain of HSITH in some of their top players leaving. Their decision you say. I don't argue that. But you have to look at the fundamental reason WHY they are leaving. And here's where you really muddy the waters. Exclusive gear and exclusive toon. Unprecedented stuff in the history of SWGOH. For the ones doing HSITH I am sure they could give a kitten about this thread. For the ones of us looking outside in with no way to get the same gear for an undetermined amount of time...Well you have to call shenanigans.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
If this was implemented, I'm sure you would see several of the competitive guilds split up in a number of smaller guilds when new raids are introduced in order for more of them to gain top rank rewards and unlock new characters faster. Yes, it would hurt their performance in TB/TW, but some guilds will always strive to unlock the newest stuff first.
You must have completely skipped the part where I said "reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild... " - for that very reason.
Full 50 person guilds all working together should still get the best rewards. The rewards for "scaled" guilds should never be better than a full guild.
Key word: Slightly.
Compare that to f.ex. everyone getting top—10 rewards if splitting into 5 10—man guilds and noone getting the considerably worse rank 31—50 rewards while 15 people are getting top—3 rewards with extra lootboxes instead of only 3. No, I didn't skip that part in your post. Did you skip considering the possible ways to exploit it? A slight reduction doesn't prevent that.
However, your new and changed suggestion will of course prevent what your original suggestion didn't.
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
People should expect gear not to be exclusive. That's a standard that CG themselves has maintained since the inception of this game.
Who cares that they've always had an advantage, it was surmountable before, not it isn't. +12 speed for everyone before mods isn't a piddly little thing not worth mentioning. It is absolutely 100% a valid complaint about this balance shift that CG dropped on us out of nowhere that goes against everything they've done before.
The fact that eventually other guilds MAY gain access to the hSTR is irrelevant. The fact that they eventually plan on adding other ways to get it is also irrelevant. The only point worth mentioning right here is that gear is now exclusive.
CG slapped thousands of players across the face with this unexpected, pointlessly elitist change. Far, far more than they've helped with it.
Without plenty of people at the bottom, the top isn't very high up. Elitist attitudes that shunt away the complaints of those below them are always detrimental to the elitist over time. Sure maybe they can get further ahead, but if it breaks those below you, you actually end up worse off. With no community, swgoh would be a boring game.
Again:
People should expect changes. Character release cadences change. Credit heist cadences change. Normal AAT had its difficulty blown to oblivion.
Balance shifts happened before. Mods were introduced. Characters are worked. Ship arenas are reworked.
It happens all the time. Players have received 'slaps in the face' before.
Expecting a stale game is unrealistic.
You're right, that +12 speed isn't a small thing. However having Traya on a Sith team isn't a small thing either. Both can be worked around.
Also remember that 2 of the 6 new gear types will be available to everyone.
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
People should expect gear not to be exclusive. That's a standard that CG themselves has maintained since the inception of this game.
Who cares that they've always had an advantage, it was surmountable before, not it isn't. +12 speed for everyone before mods isn't a piddly little thing not worth mentioning. It is absolutely 100% a valid complaint about this balance shift that CG dropped on us out of nowhere that goes against everything they've done before.
The fact that eventually other guilds MAY gain access to the hSTR is irrelevant. The fact that they eventually plan on adding other ways to get it is also irrelevant. The only point worth mentioning right here is that gear is now exclusive.
CG slapped thousands of players across the face with this unexpected, pointlessly elitist change. Far, far more than they've helped with it.
Without plenty of people at the bottom, the top isn't very high up. Elitist attitudes that shunt away the complaints of those below them are always detrimental to the elitist over time. Sure maybe they can get further ahead, but if it breaks those below you, you actually end up worse off. With no community, swgoh would be a boring game.
Again:
People should expect changes. Character release cadences change. Credit heist cadences change. Normal AAT had its difficulty blown to oblivion.
Balance shifts happened before. Mods were introduced. Characters are worked. Ship arenas are reworked.
It happens all the time. Players have received 'slaps in the face' before.
Expecting a stale game is unrealistic.
You're right, that +12 speed isn't a small thing. However having Traya on a Sith team isn't a small thing either. Both can be worked around.
Also remember that 2 of the 6 new gear types will be available to everyone.
If you ain't a dev. You're on the wrong side of this argument. No one here needs their justified anger talked down, and you can't talk it down because it's justified.
Expecting a standard the devs themselves set is entirely realistic. Getting upset about it is not only justified, it has potential to improve the game. This thread is in the feedback section. These comments are directed at devs. This thread isn't for players to get feedback from other players, it is for players to direct their feedback to the devs.
No one here needs a counseling session. We either need people supporting us, or we need people to get out of the way between us and the devs.
/me forces a pointed stare at Waqui.
They are in the wrong here, and they need to hear it. Our anger is justified, not irrational. You can't "talk us down". We are directing our complaints to the devs, not players. This isn't the right thread to be saying what you are saying because none of it is constructive, it is just justifying what the devs have done, when there is no justification for it.
And we call the op's first post.... Entitlement. Do You play the game expecting everything to be readily available to you? Just because you can't get it now when you want it doesn't mean it's out of reach. You feel that you want it here and now and have the roster? Go find a guild with an opening doing heroic sith..
I call what you're preaching entitlement. Heroic guilds just got given an advantage they've never had before, and you respond as though people should expect it to be that way.
It's a new level of progression that Everyone should be entitled to who puts effort into the raid, not only entitled to those who can whip the raid.
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
People should expect gear not to be exclusive. That's a standard that CG themselves has maintained since the inception of this game.
Who cares that they've always had an advantage, it was surmountable before, not it isn't. +12 speed for everyone before mods isn't a piddly little thing not worth mentioning. It is absolutely 100% a valid complaint about this balance shift that CG dropped on us out of nowhere that goes against everything they've done before.
The fact that eventually other guilds MAY gain access to the hSTR is irrelevant. The fact that they eventually plan on adding other ways to get it is also irrelevant. The only point worth mentioning right here is that gear is now exclusive.
CG slapped thousands of players across the face with this unexpected, pointlessly elitist change. Far, far more than they've helped with it.
Without plenty of people at the bottom, the top isn't very high up. Elitist attitudes that shunt away the complaints of those below them are always detrimental to the elitist over time. Sure maybe they can get further ahead, but if it breaks those below you, you actually end up worse off. With no community, swgoh would be a boring game.
Again:
People should expect changes. Character release cadences change. Credit heist cadences change. Normal AAT had its difficulty blown to oblivion.
Balance shifts happened before. Mods were introduced. Characters are worked. Ship arenas are reworked.
It happens all the time. Players have received 'slaps in the face' before.
Expecting a stale game is unrealistic.
You're right, that +12 speed isn't a small thing. However having Traya on a Sith team isn't a small thing either. Both can be worked around.
Also remember that 2 of the 6 new gear types will be available to everyone.
If you ain't a dev. You're on the wrong side of this argument. No one here needs their justified anger talked down, and you can't talk it down because it's justified.
Expecting a standard the devs themselves set is entirely realistic. Getting upset about it is not only justified, it has potential to improve the game. This thread is in the feedback section. These comments are directed at devs. This thread isn't for players to get feedback from other players, it is for players to direct their feedback to the devs.
No one here needs a counseling session. We either need people supporting us, or we need people to get out of the way between us and the devs.
/me forces a pointed stare at Waqui.
They are in the wrong here, and they need to hear it. Our anger is justified, not irrational. You can't "talk us down". We are directing our complaints to the devs, not players. This isn't the right thread to be saying what you are saying because none of it is constructive, it is just justifying what the devs have done, when there is no justification for it.
Just wanted to point out the expectation of the feedback section is actually both ways. For player facing and dev facing issues. Ok back to the topic on hand.
Replies
I do not disagree with your outlook of the situation, I can't say for sure this is the only outcome, but is it a valid sequence of events.
my point as i was trying to state before. This post is about how this works with smaller guilds and there are other posts about this view on the topic. I would just like to keep this post on this topic.
smaller guild dont face the same issues as long established guilds. them not having access to rewards at an early stage can help keep a balance in rosters for the health of the game, it forces them to develop wider rather than focused on getting few toons to G12+ during the period when this gear is exclusive. this wont effect them as much as they will not face players who are advanced enough to do HSR.
Good points all. Sorry for getting the thread a little sidetracked.
Incidentally, I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to simply have the raid (and its rewards) scale with guild size.
For example, if the guild is only 25 people, simply have the health of the HSith bosses be 50% less in each phase. Perhaps reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild, but make it possible for smaller guilds made up of strong players too.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
People should expect that things change. It always does in this game.
Effort? Rewards are not based on the amount of effort. They are based on the results of that effort. You're not entitled to better rewards just because you spend more time. Not in any aspect of the game.
An advantage, they never had before? They always had an advantage. Who cares if the advantage is exclysive gear or exclusive characters? You can work around both types of advantages — and it will cost you some effort to do so.
As with everything else in this game more and more players/guilds will gain access to the new gear and characters as time goes by. Already now 25—man guilds can do heroic STR, as long as they have developed the 'right' teams for it. With the recent JTR event (everyone aiming at doing heroic STR now, should have her by now), the GMY rework and the 2 g12+ gear types available to everyone even more people will be able to do heroic STR.
If this was implemented, I'm sure you would see several of the competitive guilds split up in a number of smaller guilds when new raids are introduced in order for more of them to gain top rank rewards and unlock new characters faster. Yes, it would hurt their performance in TB/TW, but some guilds will always strive to unlock the newest stuff first.
You must have completely skipped the part where I said "reduce the rewards slightly across the board - since it's not the "ideal" full guild... " - for that very reason.
Full 50 person guilds all working together should still get the best rewards. The rewards for "scaled" guilds should never be better than a full guild.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
People should expect gear not to be exclusive. That's a standard that CG themselves has maintained since the inception of this game.
Who cares that they've always had an advantage, it was surmountable before, not it isn't. +12 speed for everyone before mods isn't a piddly little thing not worth mentioning. It is absolutely 100% a valid complaint about this balance shift that CG dropped on us out of nowhere that goes against everything they've done before.
The fact that eventually other guilds MAY gain access to the hSTR is irrelevant. The fact that they eventually plan on adding other ways to get it is also irrelevant. The only point worth mentioning right here is that gear is now exclusive.
CG slapped thousands of players across the face with this unexpected, pointlessly elitist change. Far, far more than they've helped with it.
Without plenty of people at the bottom, the top isn't very high up. Elitist attitudes that shunt away the complaints of those below them are always detrimental to the elitist over time. Sure maybe they can get further ahead, but if it breaks those below you, you actually end up worse off. With no community, swgoh would be a boring game.
I think you are combining smaller guilds and new player guilds into one category when they are not. The size of the guild is not in any way linked to its age. Also Age of guild and age of account are not linked either.
Saying that any other scenario means they are in a smaller guild by choice is ignoring the point of the thread. It's destroying smaller guilds. They should still be able to get gear even if they can't clear heroic. We always could before. This choice made by the game to tie the gear to heroic only is pushing out people in smaller guilds. (not new player guilds)
It's like they don't even respect the idea of a guild to begin with. A guild isn't something you're supposed to join until you outgrow it and move on. NO! That idea actually goes against the very idea that guilds are based on. A guild is about sticking together and growing together. Sometimes people have irreconcilable difference and must part ways. That is one thing. Moving on just to progress faster is not what CG should be encouraging. It's what they should be discouraging.
Point being that I find no validity in your point that smaller guilds don't have to worry about hSTR rewards as much. This is what I call a leap of faith that a lot of the people hopping in this thread seem to have.
When it comes down to it. Calling not having access to this gear in this choice is hyperbole that undermines the arguments in play. Calling it a non-issue for smaller guilds is once again based on assumptions that will not be true in the case of many, many smaller guilds. Saying it is their own fault for making the choices they did is harsh and uncalled for since the decision they are making is actually the morally correct one.
This game has also always been about goals and projects, in every aspect of the game.
Smaller guilds made up of players who didnt want to be competitive and have slower progress, is a choice. It's called being a casual player. Even getting gear at a slower rate doing a lower tier raid shows that. Now that they have no access to it (for an unknown period of time, which we know will not be permanent) it's an issue?
This would be the same situation when that guild couldn't do the HAAT? They would have to join a different guild because at the start people couldn't do it or it would take weeks for them to do regular, which was basically locking them out of gear too.
A guild is a group of like minded players (IMHO) if you dont feel like the group is playing at your level in any game where there is guild content, then it's your choice how you handle that, but yes you have to realize that those choices may have long term and short term effects.
I am not saying that the current reward structure doesnt need to be reconsidered but locking end game rewards behind end game content is fine with me and if that means that players choosing to not play end game content because they want to hang out with a certain group of players then that's their choice on how they grow and develop as a group and as a player.
The game doesnt need to immediately cater to casual players, they are choosing a slower pace to the game already. This gear will not be locked permanently and much like a new toon will have its exclusive period and that will end at some point.
I think the harder issue here would be difficulty balance as a guild shrinks in size, we have already seen balance issues with a fixed size of guild.
If you're getting into morals over a mobile game, you're probably overthinking it. If you want the gear do hstr. If you want your preferred guild stay there. People who are good enough to be in a guild that's can clear the raid are there because that's where they belong. It's progression and it's common sense that being in a guild below your GP would hinder your progression
Gear was never end game content before. Guilds of all sizes could take down the tier necessary to get gear, it may have just taken a while. But refreshes and no time limit made it possible. Now it can only be gotten by those who can do heroic. HAAT was not the same situation. You could still get the gear, it just took longer.
I'm in a smaller guild. I have been taking 1st in fleet almost since I started, I have been taking 1st in squad for almost a year. The tier of raid my guild can take down has never kept me from being competitive in other aspects of the game before because I have always had other avenues to obtain gear than the heroic. It is an issue now because now I don't So when people drop those 2 pieces on their TFP and it makes him the same speed or faster than my Poe, I can't compete in this individual area of the game anymore because they changed the way gear is distributed. It is an issue now, and it isn't a minor one.
So you can say you're fine with locking end game rewards behind end game content, but to me that's still shifting the argument away from what we're talking about. The problem is that gear is now end game content. That shift of gear to end game content is what's cutting smaller guilds out of being competitive in every area of the game. It was never end game content before. Only characters were.
You can say that people chose to be non competitive by remaining in a smaller guild, and I say that's a bogus statement. I have always chosen to be competitive in all areas of the game except the guild raid leaderboard. Now they've tied that to every other area of the game when it never was before.
The longer this gear remains exclusive, the more of an outrage the big issue this represents is.
Sure SOME people could choose to join a bigger guild instead to be able to get the gear, but you know what? No one ever had to make that choice before in this game. This is a new level of exclusivity. One that imbalances the game. It needs to be fixed. It is a big deal.
And that is a HUGE deal. As several people have stated gear has never been "exclusive" to an end-tier raid. The characters have been and I have zero issues with that. But now that the exclusive gear is tied to HSITH for who knows how long it widens the gap. What is monumentally different about this gap is that you don't have access to it UNLESS you are in a HSITH guild. I have been in contact with this member and now with exclusive HSITH raid rewards what is the incentive for him to come back to us? The answer is there isn't one unless he gets tired of gear...
Really for me it's about the journey. The guild I am in started out with 3 people and they were doing T2 Rancors when I joined. How good did it feel for me for us to beat HPIT the first time? It felt great. And then when HAAT came out it took us over 6 months to get ready for it. And again it was a monumental feeling to have put the work in to beat it. So the whole leaving my guild to go to another guild that has HSITH is just not what I want to do. Does it make me a casual player to have that mentality? I would argue no it doesn't. As a guild leader I just know we don't have the team composition to make HSITH a reality. In due time and effort we'll get there. I think this whole thread is a valid complaint about the destruction of smaller guilds. It really comes down to your definition of what is "small". For someone like me in about a 90M GP guild I'm sure many have felt the pain of HSITH in some of their top players leaving. Their decision you say. I don't argue that. But you have to look at the fundamental reason WHY they are leaving. And here's where you really muddy the waters. Exclusive gear and exclusive toon. Unprecedented stuff in the history of SWGOH. For the ones doing HSITH I am sure they could give a kitten about this thread. For the ones of us looking outside in with no way to get the same gear for an undetermined amount of time...Well you have to call shenanigans.
Key word: Slightly.
Compare that to f.ex. everyone getting top—10 rewards if splitting into 5 10—man guilds and noone getting the considerably worse rank 31—50 rewards while 15 people are getting top—3 rewards with extra lootboxes instead of only 3. No, I didn't skip that part in your post. Did you skip considering the possible ways to exploit it? A slight reduction doesn't prevent that.
However, your new and changed suggestion will of course prevent what your original suggestion didn't.
Again:
People should expect changes. Character release cadences change. Credit heist cadences change. Normal AAT had its difficulty blown to oblivion.
Balance shifts happened before. Mods were introduced. Characters are worked. Ship arenas are reworked.
It happens all the time. Players have received 'slaps in the face' before.
Expecting a stale game is unrealistic.
You're right, that +12 speed isn't a small thing. However having Traya on a Sith team isn't a small thing either. Both can be worked around.
Also remember that 2 of the 6 new gear types will be available to everyone.
If you ain't a dev. You're on the wrong side of this argument. No one here needs their justified anger talked down, and you can't talk it down because it's justified.
Expecting a standard the devs themselves set is entirely realistic. Getting upset about it is not only justified, it has potential to improve the game. This thread is in the feedback section. These comments are directed at devs. This thread isn't for players to get feedback from other players, it is for players to direct their feedback to the devs.
No one here needs a counseling session. We either need people supporting us, or we need people to get out of the way between us and the devs.
/me forces a pointed stare at Waqui.
They are in the wrong here, and they need to hear it. Our anger is justified, not irrational. You can't "talk us down". We are directing our complaints to the devs, not players. This isn't the right thread to be saying what you are saying because none of it is constructive, it is just justifying what the devs have done, when there is no justification for it.
Just wanted to point out the expectation of the feedback section is actually both ways. For player facing and dev facing issues. Ok back to the topic on hand.