in marvel strike force, every hero have a fixed value of speed. only things like speed up and speed down is prety overpowered, also things like ability power ups. or just defense up, defense down, offense down offense up are all very powerful. i guess it makes it alot easier to balance things this way, but it is rumoured they will introduce mods there also for another possible cash grab i guess. the game is still unbalanced tho. its hard to balance games like these. but yeah mods are ok i guess but its frustrating when u can farm for a month and u get 1 prety decent set and one semi good, and u literally cant do **** with a second team cause they need huge amounts of speed to even be viable, or even do the pve table. i climbed so many ranks in arena just farming mods for a while its insane! but now i cant farm mods because im farming vets in preparation of JTR. not much in this game is fair in any way i think, u can literally buy advantages, or mods even. funny about mods there is just 1 stat that count and its speed, if the mod dont have it its useless for sure, and im not sure there is ways to fix this. speed can win games on its own lol, having no speed vs alot of good speed mods is making the game not 5v5 but 10v5 in favour of the one with speedmods lol. price on upgrading mods are quite expensive also, esp if it doesnt rank up speed secondaries. victory here is decided by what advantages u have, not by your skill, i think its how this game is suposed to be.
To get it back on topic a bit (sorry for the ship detour, but it was brought up and I was just trying to clarify), I think they encourage speed in builds as an easy way to move from meta to meta and manipulate it with new toons. You can easily make speed a detriment, just how deep do you want your game to be is the quesiton and then how much control are you okay letting go to manipulate the meta. A leader that heavily penalized consecutive turns or turns at the beginning of the match before you take a turn would be a great example. If enemy moves 6 times before you do, there could be a series of punitive debuffs that get applied to them that aren't cleansable or reistable for 2 turns...maybe even at some point enemy gets death mark as a debuff!!! Below is an example of a toon design, that was slow in another Cap Games mobile ... heoes of dragon age. but essentially the mage here powers up as it takes damage and then send back a massive AOE...so speed and turns early were penalized / countered. This is kinda like Traya with debuffs, but just if she were aoe
The problem with speed, is that it undermines the entirety of all mods. Literally nothing on a mod matters other than it's secondary speed buff.
They're changing this a bit...tenacity with some of the leaders out now can make for a viable set on teams that are moderate in potency and rely on debuffs or resistable TM removal.
There is not a single player in the top 100 of any server that would ever, EVER consider putting a mod on an arena character without a speed secondary.
This means that 100% of mods without speed secondaries are literally worthless. There are near infinite permutations of mods in this game, and 95% or more of them are unusable trash because the opportunity cost of NOT using speed mods gimps your team to a non competitve level in every area of the game from raids to arena.
You put so much effort into designing mods and then threw every possible decision the player could make out the window. You allowed us to choose between different sets and primary bonuses and then threw that out the window too. Would anyone in a million years consider using an arrow that doesn’t have a speed primary stat? Of course not - so at least 70% of all arrows can be deemed worthless by just looking at the primary stat.
Why did you do this? Don’t go in depth designing an entire system for your game if you know none of it is even worth paying attention to.
Because making most of them worthless means more resources sunk into finding the good ones. Which in turn means more chances for players to sink money into the resources needed to farm mods via cantina refreshes or credit packs.
Well, they're useless for PVP to some degree; but offense arrows or protection arrows I use quite a bit in various Raids / PVE situations. Do agree though, making so many useless for PVP is designed to squeeze resources out of players. Let's see what the changes bring though on posssible stat changes / set bonuses, etc.
I love having Han in the Arena. Unless opposition has one also, speed is irelevant, Han shoots first
And that is precisely why speed secondaries are important and won't go anywhere. Without the randomness in speed they bring, every mirror battle would be solved with the same coin flip system we get when two Raid Han Solo meet.
I love having Han in the Arena. Unless opposition has one also, speed is irelevant, Han shoots first
And that is precisely why speed secondaries are important and won't go anywhere. Without the randomness in speed they bring, every mirror battle would be solved with the same coin flip system we get when two Raid Han Solo meet.
Speed is what provides needed separation between players. You can overcome a minor speed disadvantage in arena due to the AI being so bad. Though it'll prevent rank 100 players from climbing to the top. If speed mods didn't exist, everyone would be playing the exact same teams with the exact same turn order.
Also nurfing speed at this point would be crazy. People have invested so much into farming these mods. To just take them away because others have better mods than you isn't fair either.
All characters should have a base speed. No character should be able to increase their speed in any way, shape or form.
Determining when a character makes a turn should be similar to a real battle that ebbs and flows. Turn meter gain and turn meter reduction allow teams to “increase speed/reduce speed” without necessarily guaranteeing that you are always going to go at a certain point in time. Enemy team heroes may remove your turn meter at a crucial point of battle that would hinder your team, OR you may be losing and one of your heroes uses an ability at the right moment granting your team turn meter that may enable to you to comeback and win the game. This is how battles should be fought.
Moving away from speed speed speed!!! and focusing on turn meter gains/turn meter reduction would allow everyone to build diverse teams from all heroes. As it is now, everyone runs the same old teams and there is no diversity.
That's sounds so wrong. Tm is the game. How else is Rex still viable...
The way Speed works is an “always present” effect. So regardless of turn meter gains or reductions your Speed is always the same. That’s why people mod to make heroes faster, to be able to attack and get abilities off before the enemy does. Faster heroes always benefit more from turn meter gains and faster heroes are always hurt less when they are affected by turn meter reduction.
When you remove Speed as a stat that can be increased by mods, you shift heroes turns into an ever moving ebb and flow based off of heroes skills/abilities that usually have cooldowns, instead of just taking turns based off whoever has the highest speed stat. This allows strategy, tactical use of turn-meter based abilities, AND counter-play by enemies. All of a sudden instead of having the same team appearing as the meta, you would have a variety of teams show up.
Characters like Plo Koon all of a sudden become a valuable member of a Clone or Jedi team because he can grant his allies 50% turn meter with Take Charge, allowing him to tip the battle in his teams favor.
Characters like Old Ben now use Mind Trick tactically to remove enemy turn meter, instead of just constantly spamming it on cooldown for the ability block.
You can still have Speed Up and Speed Down to modify the base Speed stat of heroes during combat, but you remove the ability for players to just increase the base Speed of heroes through mods to ensure they always go first. You force them to use abilities, buffs, and debuffs in battle to gain an advantage. Tactical use of abilities would then help to determine the outcome of battles, not just whoever has the highest speed stat.
Then u have a mirror match between two rex leads and it goes down to a coinflip for which rex uses tm gain first. Way to go.
The problem with speed, is that it undermines the entirety of all mods. Literally nothing on a mod matters other than it's secondary speed buff.
By and large this statement is accurate. Even after spending a long, long time chasing secondary speed on mods with some success, I would rather they just did away with the speed set and speed secondaries all together. I can't even imagine the number of mods I've thrown on the junk heap because of no speed secondary or the speed secondary didn't upgrade.
The problem with speed, is that it undermines the entirety of all mods. Literally nothing on a mod matters other than it's secondary speed buff.
By and large this statement is accurate. Even after spending a long, long time chasing secondary speed on mods with some success, I would rather they just did away with the speed set and speed secondaries all together. I can't even imagine the number of mods I've thrown on the junk heap because of no speed secondary or the speed secondary didn't upgrade.
And if there was no speed secondary you would have obviously kept every single one of those mods because if there was no speed secondary all mods would be perfectly equals, no stat would be better than others and there would be no optimized stats of any kind.
Speed is what provides needed separation between players. You can overcome a minor speed disadvantage in arena due to the AI being so bad. Though it'll prevent rank 100 players from climbing to the top. If speed mods didn't exist, everyone would be playing the exact same teams with the exact same turn order.
Also nurfing speed at this point would be crazy. People have invested so much into farming these mods. To just take them away because others have better mods than you isn't fair either.
I don't think speed secondaries are inherently a bad thing. I think it's the fact that it's random who gets the best ones. If they had capped speed secondaries it would be one thing, but to lose an arena match because someone just happened to get a god mod (i.e., secondary speed over 20) makes for bad gameplay. You can't "earn" that attribute in the same way you earn shards, zetas, gear, etc. Two people can buy the same gold mod with +5 starting secondary speed and one rolls to 25 and the other doesn't roll at all. Doesn't seem right to have progression determined by dumb luck.
I think it's safe to say that the gameplay was a lot worse before mods were introduced.
I don't agree. Swgoh pre-mods was the main reason I stuck to the game longer than it's peers because it was so much more about collecting and exploring toons and their synergies than grinding mods and crunching numbers like all the others.
The joy of figuring out "rock smashes scissors" is completely dulled when you find that every scissors you meet moves at light speed because it spent more money than you, and that you also need to spend time reading each one's stats to check that.
How is speed not working as intended in a turn-based game ...? It's definitely working as intended, it's just very hard to farm these mods because of the RNG element to upgrading them and farming them
There is not a single player in the top 100 of any server that would ever, EVER consider putting a mod on an arena character without a speed secondary.
This means that 100% of mods without speed secondaries are literally worthless. There are near infinite permutations of mods in this game, and 95% or more of them are unusable trash because the opportunity cost of NOT using speed mods gimps your team to a non competitve level in every area of the game from raids to arena.
You put so much effort into designing mods and then threw every possible decision the player could make out the window. You allowed us to choose between different sets and primary bonuses and then threw that out the window too. Would anyone in a million years consider using an arrow that doesn’t have a speed primary stat? Of course not - so at least 70% of all arrows can be deemed worthless by just looking at the primary stat.
Why did you do this? Don’t go in depth designing an entire system for your game if you know none of it is even worth paying attention to.
Not entirely true. I--and several others in my arena--run Traya lead with SithTrooper modded for protection rather than speed. He's got a protection arrow, not a speed arrow, and does extremely well. The same holds true for GK ...
The problem with speed, is that it undermines the entirety of all mods. Literally nothing on a mod matters other than it's secondary speed buff.
By and large this statement is accurate. Even after spending a long, long time chasing secondary speed on mods with some success, I would rather they just did away with the speed set and speed secondaries all together. I can't even imagine the number of mods I've thrown on the junk heap because of no speed secondary or the speed secondary didn't upgrade.
You're totally right. If a mod doesn't have a speed secondary, or it's secondary is less than 10, then it's basically useless.
Different squad compositions trump a speed based mirror match both in effectiveness and fun. Explore a little - try some different things and you might surprise yourself.
There isn't a single composition right now that cant be beat convincingly by a clever or well crafted alternative squad. Speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor particularly at the top end of arena.
Speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor particularly at the top end of arena.
Lmao, good one. You show me video evidence that a team with no bonus speed can compete anywhere near the top in arena and I’ll gladly concede every point I’ve ever made about mods being toxic.
Speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor particularly at the top end of arena.
Lmao, good one. You show me video evidence that a team with no bonus speed can compete anywhere near the top in arena and I’ll gladly concede every point I’ve ever made about mods being toxic.
That’s not what was said though. Speed is rarely the deciding factor in top end of arena not because it’s useless/unimportant, but because everyone has speed, lots of it and roughly the same amount to be honest.
So the deciding factor is elsewhere. Mostly composition of the team (sith trooper/no sith trooper, traya lead/traya not lead/no traya etc), but also shard chat for example.
Personal example, my mods are a bit more advanced than my gear on arena team. I mostly outspeed by a large margin my opponents but loose because i deal not enough damage and get pretty much one shot. So for me gear is the deciding factor. Again, that would hardly be the case in top end arena.
The point is you should always be facing people within your level of play, which means the difference between win and loss against those people is bound to be your decisions vs theirs.
And my point is in a strategy game your decisions should more or less determine your level of play. You said yourself that’s not the case here.
You agree that everyone in the top arena would be crazy not to use as much speed as possible. The numbers you roll on mods are 100% determined by RNG over a long period of time. Players haven’t made any decisions to get good mods, they just rolled the dice, and yet those numbers are more important than anything else in the game.
To reiterate, the most important aspect of this strategy game falls to nothing more than luck.
I understand you didn’t say speed was useless, but I disagree with the way you presented it as though speed doesn’t matter. The only reason it isn’t the determining factor in arena is because it’s already been determined. You will never be able to show me video evidence of low speed teams doing well, because they never will.
Speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor particularly at the top end of arena.
Lmao, good one. You show me video evidence that a team with no bonus speed can compete anywhere near the top in arena and I’ll gladly concede every point I’ve ever made about mods being toxic.
Sure thing but 1st a few examples
Thrawn troopers with magma walk all over traya - lead or otherwise....no speed needed at all - magmatrooper is just like magic. Just saying.
Bastila Jedi swamp Palpatine Sith/empire....they just cant land those debuffs. Again speed not required certainly not in any abundance. Even better - load up your Jedi with mega offence and see if Ezra can't do some 100k hits and watch those sith/empire melt.
Pretty sure I saw a qi'ra + nest put those pesky Bastila Jedi to bed in short order.
Old skool General Zarris squads vs the old rebel meta didn't need speed either just lots of health. Rebels vs fast gk squads did better with big offence on chirrut CLS and wiggs and big health on baze.
Ventress Night sisters with zombie don't really need it either vs the right opponent and remember how troopers dominated Nightsisters out of the meta - speed not needed there either.
Rex lead squads have always allowed people who are outclassed on speed to keep up
So yeah sure if you want a single alpha meta buster team that just cant lose on offence vs any comers then yep you are going to need lots and lots of speed.
If however you have the correct counter squad available then speed isnt really a big issue on offence. The correct counter squad on will demolish the fastest meta alpha squad.
Now that you've gotten some pointers on teams that don't need to be fastest to win perhaps you could search out some vids for yourself.
And my point is in a strategy game your decisions should more or less determine your level of play. You said yourself that’s not the case here.
You agree that everyone in the top arena would be crazy not to use as much speed as possible. The numbers you roll on mods are 100% determined by RNG over a long period of time. Players haven’t made any decisions to get good mods, they just rolled the dice, and yet those numbers are more important than anything else in the game.
To reiterate, the most important aspect of this strategy game falls to nothing more than luck.
I understand you didn’t say speed was useless, but I disagree with the way you presented it as though speed doesn’t matter. The only reason it isn’t the determining factor in arena is because it’s already been determined. You will never be able to show me video evidence of low speed teams doing well, because they never will.
So basically what you are saying is that if i take a look at my top 50 arena, they will be ranked by decreasing total team speed from 1 to 50 (since it’s more important than anything else, including team comp and gear then). You are also saying that those 50 players are just the 50 luckiest players of my shard since the quality of the mods (meaning the quality of the team, according to you, since speed is so all important) has luck as it’s only factor.
Because if not then i don’t understand your point. You do not need to be faster than an opponent to win in offense against them. You may need to not be too much slower, however, but since you are an efficient player, you farmed mod for as long as they did, which means that you got thousands of mods, same as they did. So even though some of them got luckier than you (and you got luckier than some), your overall mod quality is close to theirs. So is your gear, so is the depth of your roster. It then comes down to your decisions against theirs.
And investment of course, both in time and money. Especially money.
Tl dr : speed is just one of many grinds you need to go through in a grindy game, nothing more nothing less. You need to grind characters, you need to grind gear, you need to grind mods with speed secondaries (and some without for special circumstances).
I’ve been quick to jump on bad dev decisions of late, but this is a nonsense complaint. Someone has to go first. Either every match is going to be a coin flip or you have to come up with a way for players to improve your order via something like mods with speed secondaries. And besides that, there are numerous mechanics to negate speed advantages and TM manipulation if you know how it can even Google properly.
@JohnAran Hah... no. Nowhere did I say speed was literally the only thing that mattered. Nice try, though.
@anonidude Specific counter teams won’t get you anywhere in arena. You can try stomping those nightsisters to climb ranks with your no-speed troopers and then watch how absurdly fast your rank will plummet right back down.
You both missed my point: speed is 100% necessary to be competitively viable. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong on this, but this is a tactical game where decision making should be the most important aspect, and yet we’ve all been pigeonholed into valuing one stat above all others by a massive margin.
They took mods, in theory something that allows you to customize your team and really think about what each character needs, and dumbed it down to (you said it yourself) just another grind...
Are you really happy with that outcome, or have you just accepted it?
It’s called optimization. It is bound to happen in every game that allows you to make choices. Thinking that all choices are equal is cute but in reality it never works like that. In most games you have a « meta » which could be said to be the best available choices/course of action that you can take.
Now you can ignore the meta (more or less), toy with it a little but in the end the truth is : the more optimized your gameplay is, the less choices are open along the way.
If you nerf speed or delete it, you will change the meta. You will not change the fact that an optimized strategy will require you to get specific stats / characters, same as now.
So to answer you : i am perfectly happy with the outcome and have accepted it long ago (long before i started playing SW goh).
Replies
They're changing this a bit...tenacity with some of the leaders out now can make for a viable set on teams that are moderate in potency and rely on debuffs or resistable TM removal.
There is not a single player in the top 100 of any server that would ever, EVER consider putting a mod on an arena character without a speed secondary.
This means that 100% of mods without speed secondaries are literally worthless. There are near infinite permutations of mods in this game, and 95% or more of them are unusable trash because the opportunity cost of NOT using speed mods gimps your team to a non competitve level in every area of the game from raids to arena.
You put so much effort into designing mods and then threw every possible decision the player could make out the window. You allowed us to choose between different sets and primary bonuses and then threw that out the window too. Would anyone in a million years consider using an arrow that doesn’t have a speed primary stat? Of course not - so at least 70% of all arrows can be deemed worthless by just looking at the primary stat.
Why did you do this? Don’t go in depth designing an entire system for your game if you know none of it is even worth paying attention to.
Yup
Also nurfing speed at this point would be crazy. People have invested so much into farming these mods. To just take them away because others have better mods than you isn't fair either.
Then u have a mirror match between two rex leads and it goes down to a coinflip for which rex uses tm gain first. Way to go.
By and large this statement is accurate. Even after spending a long, long time chasing secondary speed on mods with some success, I would rather they just did away with the speed set and speed secondaries all together. I can't even imagine the number of mods I've thrown on the junk heap because of no speed secondary or the speed secondary didn't upgrade.
And if there was no speed secondary you would have obviously kept every single one of those mods because if there was no speed secondary all mods would be perfectly equals, no stat would be better than others and there would be no optimized stats of any kind.
I agree 100%.
I don't agree. Swgoh pre-mods was the main reason I stuck to the game longer than it's peers because it was so much more about collecting and exploring toons and their synergies than grinding mods and crunching numbers like all the others.
The joy of figuring out "rock smashes scissors" is completely dulled when you find that every scissors you meet moves at light speed because it spent more money than you, and that you also need to spend time reading each one's stats to check that.
Not entirely true. I--and several others in my arena--run Traya lead with SithTrooper modded for protection rather than speed. He's got a protection arrow, not a speed arrow, and does extremely well. The same holds true for GK ...
You're totally right. If a mod doesn't have a speed secondary, or it's secondary is less than 10, then it's basically useless.
There isn't a single composition right now that cant be beat convincingly by a clever or well crafted alternative squad. Speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor particularly at the top end of arena.
Lmao, good one. You show me video evidence that a team with no bonus speed can compete anywhere near the top in arena and I’ll gladly concede every point I’ve ever made about mods being toxic.
That’s not what was said though. Speed is rarely the deciding factor in top end of arena not because it’s useless/unimportant, but because everyone has speed, lots of it and roughly the same amount to be honest.
So the deciding factor is elsewhere. Mostly composition of the team (sith trooper/no sith trooper, traya lead/traya not lead/no traya etc), but also shard chat for example.
Personal example, my mods are a bit more advanced than my gear on arena team. I mostly outspeed by a large margin my opponents but loose because i deal not enough damage and get pretty much one shot. So for me gear is the deciding factor. Again, that would hardly be the case in top end arena.
The point is you should always be facing people within your level of play, which means the difference between win and loss against those people is bound to be your decisions vs theirs.
You agree that everyone in the top arena would be crazy not to use as much speed as possible. The numbers you roll on mods are 100% determined by RNG over a long period of time. Players haven’t made any decisions to get good mods, they just rolled the dice, and yet those numbers are more important than anything else in the game.
To reiterate, the most important aspect of this strategy game falls to nothing more than luck.
I understand you didn’t say speed was useless, but I disagree with the way you presented it as though speed doesn’t matter. The only reason it isn’t the determining factor in arena is because it’s already been determined. You will never be able to show me video evidence of low speed teams doing well, because they never will.
Sure thing but 1st a few examples
Thrawn troopers with magma walk all over traya - lead or otherwise....no speed needed at all - magmatrooper is just like magic. Just saying.
Bastila Jedi swamp Palpatine Sith/empire....they just cant land those debuffs. Again speed not required certainly not in any abundance. Even better - load up your Jedi with mega offence and see if Ezra can't do some 100k hits and watch those sith/empire melt.
Pretty sure I saw a qi'ra + nest put those pesky Bastila Jedi to bed in short order.
Old skool General Zarris squads vs the old rebel meta didn't need speed either just lots of health. Rebels vs fast gk squads did better with big offence on chirrut CLS and wiggs and big health on baze.
Ventress Night sisters with zombie don't really need it either vs the right opponent and remember how troopers dominated Nightsisters out of the meta - speed not needed there either.
Rex lead squads have always allowed people who are outclassed on speed to keep up
So yeah sure if you want a single alpha meta buster team that just cant lose on offence vs any comers then yep you are going to need lots and lots of speed.
If however you have the correct counter squad available then speed isnt really a big issue on offence. The correct counter squad on will demolish the fastest meta alpha squad.
Now that you've gotten some pointers on teams that don't need to be fastest to win perhaps you could search out some vids for yourself.
So basically what you are saying is that if i take a look at my top 50 arena, they will be ranked by decreasing total team speed from 1 to 50 (since it’s more important than anything else, including team comp and gear then). You are also saying that those 50 players are just the 50 luckiest players of my shard since the quality of the mods (meaning the quality of the team, according to you, since speed is so all important) has luck as it’s only factor.
Because if not then i don’t understand your point. You do not need to be faster than an opponent to win in offense against them. You may need to not be too much slower, however, but since you are an efficient player, you farmed mod for as long as they did, which means that you got thousands of mods, same as they did. So even though some of them got luckier than you (and you got luckier than some), your overall mod quality is close to theirs. So is your gear, so is the depth of your roster. It then comes down to your decisions against theirs.
And investment of course, both in time and money. Especially money.
Tl dr : speed is just one of many grinds you need to go through in a grindy game, nothing more nothing less. You need to grind characters, you need to grind gear, you need to grind mods with speed secondaries (and some without for special circumstances).
@anonidude Specific counter teams won’t get you anywhere in arena. You can try stomping those nightsisters to climb ranks with your no-speed troopers and then watch how absurdly fast your rank will plummet right back down.
You both missed my point: speed is 100% necessary to be competitively viable. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong on this, but this is a tactical game where decision making should be the most important aspect, and yet we’ve all been pigeonholed into valuing one stat above all others by a massive margin.
They took mods, in theory something that allows you to customize your team and really think about what each character needs, and dumbed it down to (you said it yourself) just another grind...
Are you really happy with that outcome, or have you just accepted it?
Now you can ignore the meta (more or less), toy with it a little but in the end the truth is : the more optimized your gameplay is, the less choices are open along the way.
If you nerf speed or delete it, you will change the meta. You will not change the fact that an optimized strategy will require you to get specific stats / characters, same as now.
So to answer you : i am perfectly happy with the outcome and have accepted it long ago (long before i started playing SW goh).
Yes you are wrong. John has put it more eloquently than I will.
Here is my .gg https://swgoh.gg/u/exile/
I got 99 problems but speed just ain't one of them