Please fix Qui-Gon's Humbling Blow

Prev1
The way it works now, the buff removal effect is after the damage portion of the attack. This means that if he either kills his opponent, or the damage itself removes advantage or foresight, his team doesn't get offense up.

This also has the unintended consequence of making it so QGJ can hit a non-buffed Savage Opress, and just remove Savage's buff as it's produced.

Replies

  • Same thing with Kylo on counter-removes retribution, but Kylo still counters anyway. It's weird, perhaps a bug, but if it's not a bug I wouldn't change it. QGJ does not need a buff right now lol.
  • Same thing with Kylo on counter-removes retribution, but Kylo still counters anyway. It's weird, perhaps a bug, but if it's not a bug I wouldn't change it. QGJ does not need a buff right now lol.

    It's the same thing. QGJ hits him, does damage, gets countered, THEN removes the buff.
  • Baldo
    2863 posts Member
    Yes please I second this
  • No, he's already powerful enough
  • TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.
  • Bump
  • I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.
  • TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended
  • TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.
  • Telaan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.

    Also when he removed Kylo's counter buff Kylo still counter's him anyways. This is another bug for this move.
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Anyone really pay attention to how big his lightsaber is. Scaled, it's the same height as his render. I tried Googling him to refresh the live-action situation with him, and it doesn't appear to be so large. It's distracting in the game, can we level down the visual compensation for the next update?
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Telaan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.

    Also when he removed Kylo's counter buff Kylo still counter's him anyways. This is another bug for this move.

    It's the same bug. If you think of the effects of Humbling Blow as damage+buff removal+supplying the team with one turn of offense up if the buff removal is successful, it makes much more sense.

    Like I said, the damage portion of the attack just needs to go into effect AFTER the buff removal effect has had a chance to go off. If this were the case, we would be seeing the offense up group buff on a kill, or (if it's the second hit) after advantage was removed, and wouldn't be able to do it to an unbuffered Savage, and wouldn't see Kylo counter 'after' the buff was removed.
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.
  • Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.
  • Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    If your spending the time to fix how that attack functions with Savage why not just fix it as a whole and call it a day. The whole point of this thread is simply to bring awareness to the Dev's they can change it when they see fit. Plain and simple. It's broken and needs to be fixed..
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    If your spending the time to fix how that attack functions with Savage why not just fix it as a whole and call it a day. The whole point of this thread is simply to bring awareness to the Dev's they can change it when they see fit. Plain and simple. It's broken and needs to be fixed..

    My proposed fix is just to move the defending character's actions so it doesn't prioritize over any of the attacking character's actions such as QGJ's dispel. This will fix the Savage case as well as Kylo counter attacking after humbling blow. Everything else should stay intact. I really don't think it's wise to make his humbling blow go through foresight.

    And again, being "broken" is kind of subjective here so no, it's not so plain and simple.
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    I see your point. I just didn't want the nerf <X> discussion that seems to pervade every topic on the forums to take over this one, too. I definitely don't think it's a game breaking bug, especially not on the order of FOTP's health stacking.

    That being said, I do find it impossible to believe that the Humbling Blow we have now is it working as intended. The reason I point out Savage specifically is that it works on a non-buffed opponent. That is clear evidence of it not working as intended. Kylo is the same way. If the buff removal worked, he wouldn't be counter-attacking, but he is. When we have things that are obviously working against the intent of the skill, you can't say that it's working as intended just because it's more expedient to your separate argument that he's too powerful as-is, or at least would be too powerful if this issue were fixed. Furthermore, making the changes you've described serve only to undermine my assertion that the skill itself is not working, without addressing the bug itself.

    Now, as for Foresight, I do agree that Humbling Blow should not work to actually do damage to a character that has the buff. The thing is, Foresight also protects the prospective Yoda/Yoda's teammate/Rey from not only the first attack, but any assist attack that comes with it. This is also not working as intended, because the second character can 'attempt' to hit that character, with the buff icon missing, and they will 'dodge' with a circumspect 100% success rate. Foresight itself will need its own fix to make it so that it's only protecting characters from the first attack, much like how it only protects from, say, the first counterattack from a Count Dooku that gets a bonus attack proc. In a perfect world, I'd like to see a fix for that issue to be rolled out alongside a Humbling Blow fix that resolves the order of operations problem while also simultaneously instituting a check to see if the buff being removed is Foresight, and if so, automatically missing.

    The reason I made this thread is that I'm primarily concerned with the fact that you can kill someone that has a buff, or something like advantage with one hit left, and not get the offense up buff. This means that you have effectively 0 incentive to level the ability with any of the +5% damage upgrades, which again, points to it not being working as intended, but moreover, is a giant pain to have to work around when in a battle. You can't use stronger abilities on, say, a Poe or ST Han with their taunt up, because if you kill them with the buff removal ability, you've effectively wasted it. But, it's more powerful than his regular attack, so if you don't use it, they might not die in that attack at all. This is a very questionable position to be in, and can determine the outcome of an Arena match.

    TL;DR - Humbling Blow's damage should definitely be going after the buff removal effect, but it shouldn't work to damage a character with the foresight buff, which itself shouldn't be protecting that player from assist attacks.
    Telaan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    TMRevan wrote: »
    No, he's already powerful enough

    It's a bug.

    How do u know that? I think its working as intended

    Because they acknowledged it as such in the past. It's one of the reasons that the team does not get buffed if QGJ kills his target in the process of stripping the buff with it. It's apparently on their to-do list.

    @Telaan - Do you have a source on that?
  • Megadeth3700
    1017 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    If your spending the time to fix how that attack functions with Savage why not just fix it as a whole and call it a day. The whole point of this thread is simply to bring awareness to the Dev's they can change it when they see fit. Plain and simple. It's broken and needs to be fixed..

    My proposed fix is just to move the defending character's actions so it doesn't prioritize over any of the attacking character's actions such as QGJ's dispel. This will fix the Savage case as well as Kylo counter attacking after humbling blow. Everything else should stay intact. I really don't think it's wise to make his humbling blow go through foresight.

    And again, being "broken" is kind of subjective here so no, it's not so plain and simple.

    How would making the move do as intended be unfair? Having a counter to foresight is unfair? FYI I run Yoda as lead and I still think it should just be fixed to as intended. Not to mention Yoda Tenacity up cancels Humbling Blow because his remove gets resisted EVERY time. Not to mention only fixing half the bugs, like you mentioned, would still leave the error where QGJ removes a buff while killing someone and doesn't get offence up. This error would occur FAR more often then your foresight problem. Not to mention if it's changed to as intended, that means Mace would be a good counter to foresight as well, giving him more much needed viability.

    Long story short, I agree that in no way is it a high priority fix but yes it is black and white. Just like stated before by https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/profile/MeetraSurik said "buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed."

    The end
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    If your spending the time to fix how that attack functions with Savage why not just fix it as a whole and call it a day. The whole point of this thread is simply to bring awareness to the Dev's they can change it when they see fit. Plain and simple. It's broken and needs to be fixed..

    My proposed fix is just to move the defending character's actions so it doesn't prioritize over any of the attacking character's actions such as QGJ's dispel. This will fix the Savage case as well as Kylo counter attacking after humbling blow. Everything else should stay intact. I really don't think it's wise to make his humbling blow go through foresight.

    And again, being "broken" is kind of subjective here so no, it's not so plain and simple.

    How would making the move do as intended be unfair? Having a counter to foresight is unfair? FYI I run Yoda as lead and I still think it should just be fixed to as intended. Not to mention Yoda Tenacity up cancels Humbling Blow because his remove gets resisted EVERY time. Not to mention only fixing half the bugs, like you mentioned, would still leave the error where QGJ removes a buff while killing someone and doesn't get offence up. This error would occur FAR more often then your foresight problem. Not to mention if it's changed to as intended, that means Mace would be a good counter to foresight as well, giving him more much needed viability.

    Long story short, I agree that in no way is it a high priority fix but yes it is black and white. Just like stated before by https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/profile/MeetraSurik said "buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed."

    The end

    Well see, I do think it should remain where if an opponent is killed by humbling blow then it shouldn't give offense up. I know the devs may have stated otherwise but I don't see why this HAS to be labeled as being broken. I think it's a good thing for humbling blow to be as situational as it is right now - it makes you think. If you don't, then that's where we'll just have to agree to disagree as that is indeed another topic.
  • Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    Heisen wrote: »
    I feel like this is working as intended. It's meant to deal damage then dispel, not dispel then deal damage.

    Like I said, the Savage Opress example shows that it's clearly not working as intended. Kylo's counter going off 'after' it's been removed is also a clear sign of the same thing. This is a bug, and it's potentially exploitable. I posted this thread to ask that it be taken seriously.

    That being said, if you and TMRevan don't use him, and think he's too powerful already, then that's a different conversation entirely. I encourage either of you to open a new thread and state your case.

    I was just going by my own intuition of how it should work based on the description and apparently that's how the devs coded it. I missed the memo where they stated this was a bug so in that case I apologize, I am wrong. The devs are the ones who ultimately decide whats intentional or not.
    I agree that the way it interacts with Savage is a bit silly, and it kind of hurts me because I've farmed Savage myself and noticed this. However if the ordering is reversed (dispel then damage) to fix this issue, then overall it would be much easier for him to give his whole team offense up. So yes, the bug fix would be a significant buff to an already strong character.

    Again, buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed.

    The thing is, this is one of those bugs whose classification as a bug is a bit more subjective. It is not a game-breaking bug or something as obvious as FOTP's stat switch at 7* (now fixed) or his double tap hitting three times. Just like you argue that humbling blow's interaction with Savage is an exploit, someone else might argue that his humbling blow going through Rey or Yoda's foresight would be an exploit.

    The devs are not omniscient and all these little game mechanics aren't set in stone. Changing something just for the sake of changing it back to what was intended when it's not game breaking isn't really a valid argument IMO.

    So yes, I think game balance is very relevant in this case. People are already talking a lot about QGJ, imagine when he gets to kill characters through their foresight and act as Poggle at the same time. Personally I think they should leave it as is but if possible, fix the Savage case separately. Make it so it goes 1. QGJ deals damage 2. QGJ checks for buffs to strip 3. Savage checks for damage done and applies buff if so.

    If your spending the time to fix how that attack functions with Savage why not just fix it as a whole and call it a day. The whole point of this thread is simply to bring awareness to the Dev's they can change it when they see fit. Plain and simple. It's broken and needs to be fixed..

    My proposed fix is just to move the defending character's actions so it doesn't prioritize over any of the attacking character's actions such as QGJ's dispel. This will fix the Savage case as well as Kylo counter attacking after humbling blow. Everything else should stay intact. I really don't think it's wise to make his humbling blow go through foresight.

    And again, being "broken" is kind of subjective here so no, it's not so plain and simple.

    How would making the move do as intended be unfair? Having a counter to foresight is unfair? FYI I run Yoda as lead and I still think it should just be fixed to as intended. Not to mention Yoda Tenacity up cancels Humbling Blow because his remove gets resisted EVERY time. Not to mention only fixing half the bugs, like you mentioned, would still leave the error where QGJ removes a buff while killing someone and doesn't get offence up. This error would occur FAR more often then your foresight problem. Not to mention if it's changed to as intended, that means Mace would be a good counter to foresight as well, giving him more much needed viability.

    Long story short, I agree that in no way is it a high priority fix but yes it is black and white. Just like stated before by https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/profile/MeetraSurik said "buffs or nerfs are outside the scope of this thread. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, this bug should still be fixed."

    The end

    Well see, I do think it should remain where if an opponent is killed by humbling blow then it shouldn't give offense up. I know the devs may have stated otherwise but I don't see why this HAS to be labeled as being broken. I think it's a good thing for humbling blow to be as situational as it is right now - it makes you think. If you don't, then that's where we'll just have to agree to disagree as that is indeed another topic.

    Agreed, no point on beating a dead horse lol. It is nice to have some healthy debate instead of arguing for the sake of arguing like we see so much in the forums.

    Cheers,
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Snip
  • Telaan
    3454 posts Member
    Sorry I don't bro. It wasn't in reference to humbling blow specifically. It's a general game wide bug that impacts any ability where there's supposed to be a secondary effect. That effect does not occur if the toon being attacked dies.
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    That being said, I do find it impossible to believe that the Humbling Blow we have now is it working as intended. The reason I point out Savage specifically is that it works on a non-buffed opponent. That is clear evidence of it not working as intended. Kylo is the same way. If the buff removal worked, he wouldn't be counter-attacking, but he is. When we have things that are obviously working against the intent of the skill, you can't say that it's working as intended just because it's more expedient to your separate argument that he's too powerful as-is, or at least would be too powerful if this issue were fixed. Furthermore, making the changes you've described serve only to undermine my assertion that the skill itself is not working, without addressing the bug itself.

    If the devs say it isn't working exactly as intended then it isn't working as intended. However to reiterate my point in previous posts, just because it's unintended doesn't in and of itself, make it a bad thing. Heck, sometimes the best things in life are unintended, right, right? ;)
    The reason I made this thread is that I'm primarily concerned with the fact that you can kill someone that has a buff, or something like advantage with one hit left, and not get the offense up buff. This means that you have effectively 0 incentive to level the ability with any of the +5% damage upgrades, which again, points to it not being working as intended, but moreover, is a giant pain to have to work around when in a battle. You can't use stronger abilities on, say, a Poe or ST Han with their taunt up, because if you kill them with the buff removal ability, you've effectively wasted it. But, it's more powerful than his regular attack, so if you don't use it, they might not die in that attack at all. This is a very questionable position to be in, and can determine the outcome of an Arena match.

    Well like I said to Megadeth we'll have to agree to disagree about not getting the buff when the character dies or advantage falls off because of the hit and whether or not this is good game design. I disagree that there is no incentive to level up the damage of the ability. Sometimes, simply eliminating the target is just as good if not better than leaving it alive (where it might take another action) in order to grant your team offense up.
  • Telaan wrote: »
    Sorry I don't bro. It wasn't in reference to humbling blow specifically. It's a general game wide bug that impacts any ability where there's supposed to be a secondary effect. That effect does not occur if the toon being attacked dies.

    Agreed!
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    That being said, I do find it impossible to believe that the Humbling Blow we have now is it working as intended. The reason I point out Savage specifically is that it works on a non-buffed opponent. That is clear evidence of it not working as intended. Kylo is the same way. If the buff removal worked, he wouldn't be counter-attacking, but he is. When we have things that are obviously working against the intent of the skill, you can't say that it's working as intended just because it's more expedient to your separate argument that he's too powerful as-is, or at least would be too powerful if this issue were fixed. Furthermore, making the changes you've described serve only to undermine my assertion that the skill itself is not working, without addressing the bug itself.

    If the devs say it isn't working exactly as intended then it isn't working as intended. However to reiterate my point in previous posts, just because it's unintended doesn't in and of itself, make it a bad thing. Heck, sometimes the best things in life are unintended, right, right? ;)

    You keep saying that you're willing to agree to disagree, but you keep coming back to the thread to post more about how you think it's better to keep QGJ balanced by leaving this bug as is. Pick one.
    Heisen wrote: »
    The reason I made this thread is that I'm primarily concerned with the fact that you can kill someone that has a buff, or something like advantage with one hit left, and not get the offense up buff. This means that you have effectively 0 incentive to level the ability with any of the +5% damage upgrades, which again, points to it not being working as intended, but moreover, is a giant pain to have to work around when in a battle. You can't use stronger abilities on, say, a Poe or ST Han with their taunt up, because if you kill them with the buff removal ability, you've effectively wasted it. But, it's more powerful than his regular attack, so if you don't use it, they might not die in that attack at all. This is a very questionable position to be in, and can determine the outcome of an Arena match.

    Well like I said to Megadeth we'll have to agree to disagree about not getting the buff when the character dies or advantage falls off because of the hit and whether or not this is good game design. I disagree that there is no incentive to level up the damage of the ability. Sometimes, simply eliminating the target is just as good if not better than leaving it alive (where it might take another action) in order to grant your team offense up.

    My point is that this issue is causing you to have to choose. You're creating a false dichotomy between either leaving the target alive, or killing it with Humbling Blow, when none should exist.

    Furthermore, as I stated in my last reply to this derail before deleting it for the sake of dropping the issue, it's not about "having to think" vs. "not having to think", but "giving an unfair advantage to tank teams" vs "not giving an unfair advantage to tank teams". Having to choose between killing a Poe/ST Han and leaving him alive is a lose-lose proposition that should be eliminated from the game, albeit in such a way that mostly preserves Foresight's current functionality, as I outlined above.

    Above, I also outlined a different issue with Foresight's functionality, that it grants immunity to assist attacks when it shouldn't. Since posting that, I've also noticed something strange about another of Yoda's skills. He can give himself a non--buffed Savage's buffs, as well.

    This makes it pretty obvious that on-hit calculations are being done after damage is applied in every case. The post Telaan alludes to would confirm it. Therefore, it follows that Jedi Consulars that get killing blows don't have a chance to gain cooldown reduction, or a host of other problems whenever an attack would buff its user. There are many many characters in the game that this affects. In light of this, do you still believe it's best to have the damage calculation go first?
  • Heisen wrote: »
    That being said, I do find it impossible to believe that the Humbling Blow we have now is it working as intended. The reason I point out Savage specifically is that it works on a non-buffed opponent. That is clear evidence of it not working as intended. Kylo is the same way. If the buff removal worked, he wouldn't be counter-attacking, but he is. When we have things that are obviously working against the intent of the skill, you can't say that it's working as intended just because it's more expedient to your separate argument that he's too powerful as-is, or at least would be too powerful if this issue were fixed. Furthermore, making the changes you've described serve only to undermine my assertion that the skill itself is not working, without addressing the bug itself.

    If the devs say it isn't working exactly as intended then it isn't working as intended. However to reiterate my point in previous posts, just because it's unintended doesn't in and of itself, make it a bad thing. Heck, sometimes the best things in life are unintended, right, right? ;)

    You keep saying that you're willing to agree to disagree, but you keep coming back to the thread to post more about how you think it's better to keep QGJ balanced by leaving this bug as is. Pick one.
    Heisen wrote: »
    The reason I made this thread is that I'm primarily concerned with the fact that you can kill someone that has a buff, or something like advantage with one hit left, and not get the offense up buff. This means that you have effectively 0 incentive to level the ability with any of the +5% damage upgrades, which again, points to it not being working as intended, but moreover, is a giant pain to have to work around when in a battle. You can't use stronger abilities on, say, a Poe or ST Han with their taunt up, because if you kill them with the buff removal ability, you've effectively wasted it. But, it's more powerful than his regular attack, so if you don't use it, they might not die in that attack at all. This is a very questionable position to be in, and can determine the outcome of an Arena match.

    Well like I said to Megadeth we'll have to agree to disagree about not getting the buff when the character dies or advantage falls off because of the hit and whether or not this is good game design. I disagree that there is no incentive to level up the damage of the ability. Sometimes, simply eliminating the target is just as good if not better than leaving it alive (where it might take another action) in order to grant your team offense up.

    My point is that this issue is causing you to have to choose. You're creating a false dichotomy between either leaving the target alive, or killing it with Humbling Blow, when none should exist.

    Furthermore, as I stated in my last reply to this derail before deleting it for the sake of dropping the issue, it's not about "having to think" vs. "not having to think", but "giving an unfair advantage to tank teams" vs "not giving an unfair advantage to tank teams". Having to choose between killing a Poe/ST Han and leaving him alive is a lose-lose proposition that should be eliminated from the game, albeit in such a way that mostly preserves Foresight's current functionality, as I outlined above.

    Above, I also outlined a different issue with Foresight's functionality, that it grants immunity to assist attacks when it shouldn't. Since posting that, I've also noticed something strange about another of Yoda's skills. He can give himself a non--buffed Savage's buffs, as well.

    This makes it pretty obvious that on-hit calculations are being done after damage is applied in every case. The post Telaan alludes to would confirm it. Therefore, it follows that Jedi Consulars that get killing blows don't have a chance to gain cooldown reduction, or a host of other problems whenever an attack would buff its user. There are many many characters in the game that this affects. In light of this, do you still believe it's best to have the damage calculation go first?

    Since we're still going on about this. MeetraSurik, I think you just check mated this discussion. This bug is incorrectly and negatively affecting multiple players abilities. Any this is coming from someone who doesn't even have QGJ leveled up and has Yoda in my main squad. Fixing this would actually negatively affect me but i still think it should be fixed.
    ☮ Consular ☮
  • seems like a sensible request

    unfortunately, not sure EA/CG read these forums since they haven't done anything about the #1 complaint -> GW
  • Heisen
    364 posts Member
    This makes it pretty obvious that on-hit calculations are being done after damage is applied in every case. The post Telaan alludes to would confirm it. Therefore, it follows that Jedi Consulars that get killing blows don't have a chance to gain cooldown reduction, or a host of other problems whenever an attack would buff its user. There are many many characters in the game that this affects. In light of this, do you still believe it's best to have the damage calculation go first?

    Yes, just change it so the secondary effects are applied before the defender's death is triggered and your problems will be solved. Yes, I know I said I was against QGJ getting his buff after a killing blow but if it's the most practical way for the devs to solve a more global issue I can definitely live with that.
    Simply switching the damage and dispel component is not the answer though, that's for sure. Because then you run into the foresight issue and having to tweak more things individually. I'm sure the devs thought of this when they originally coded how humbling blow works. They don't want it to be that easy to get the offense up buff, it's meant to be somewhat situational. Remember the first QGJ nerf back in December?
  • MeetraSurik
    313 posts Member
    edited March 2016
    Heisen wrote: »
    This makes it pretty obvious that on-hit calculations are being done after damage is applied in every case. The post Telaan alludes to would confirm it. Therefore, it follows that Jedi Consulars that get killing blows don't have a chance to gain cooldown reduction, or a host of other problems whenever an attack would buff its user. There are many many characters in the game that this affects. In light of this, do you still believe it's best to have the damage calculation go first?

    Yes, just change it so the secondary effects are applied before the defender's death is triggered and your problems will be solved. Yes, I know I said I was against QGJ getting his buff after a killing blow but if it's the most practical way for the devs to solve a more global issue I can definitely live with that.
    Simply switching the damage and dispel component is not the answer though, that's for sure. Because then you run into the foresight issue and having to tweak more things individually.

    You'd still be proccing Savage's self buff and Kylo's counter. What is the point of doing it the way you describe if you have to "tweak more things individually" anyway? Why are you still arguing at this point at all?
    Heisen wrote: »
    I'm sure the devs thought of this when they originally coded how humbling blow works. They don't want it to be that easy to get the offense up buff, it's meant to be somewhat situational. Remember the first QGJ nerf back in December?

    I understand that it's supposed to be situational, but that doesn't automatically justify your position. You can't know the opinions of the devs any more than I can, and once again, they've already said it's not working as intended.

    This entire thread, you've posted nothing but conjecture and speculation, while obviously just arguing from a position that wouldn't allow for anything close to a buff to QGJ, no matter how justified. Now you've somewhat pivoted to allow for QGJ to get the buff when using the ability on a killing blow, which is great, but you still need to admit that keeping the order of operations as-is has multiple flaws. Humbling Blow shouldn't work on unbuffed Savage. Yoda's Masterstroke shouldn't, either. Kylo shouldn't be countering after losing the buff that allows for that.

    You've also conveniently elected to ignore that Foresight itself is also bugged, thus already needing a re-work, anyway. This is interesting, given that it benefits you as a Yoda player. Megadeth3700 has imo correctly ascertained that you only want to see changes that benefit you, personally, which is fairly obvious at this point.
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