Star Wars: The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

Replies

  • It would seem the Force hath forsook the Skywalker line in favor of Darth Gollum and Princess Junk Farmer. In his shame, Kylo hath turned to the Swole to supplement his failing power.
  • DatBoi
    3572 posts Member
    Even if the prophecy (which we don’t know anything about), explicitly stated that everyone descended from Anakin (not just anakin himself) is supposed to be some unbeatable god, even when they’re severely injured, cocky, impulsive, conflicted, and undertrained, I would ignore it because that would remove tension from the story and make the character boring.

    I’ve made my issues with Rey clear. Her overwhelming capabilities in TFA paired with an impecable moral code severely cripples the potential for a satisfying arc. Even though her battle with Kylo is nowhere near as one sided as people make it out to be, there was not sufficient buildup to justify her ultimate victory.

    That being said, all my criticisms are story and character related. I don’t care about whatever lore contradictions arose from TFA because the lore it contradicts is hot garbage. Especially because that lore was in turn undermining Empire (which is not hot garbage). For all of it’s overwhelming flaws, the ST is returning the franchise to a time before arbitrary underexplained prophecies, before midichlorians (which Lucas himself abandoned after Phantom), and before “force births” to a period where Star Wars was just a fun series about space wizards.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Just to add a few pennies to the complaint bucket here, and to toss a few blind musings:

    1 - (Pre-Disney and not sure if the book is Canon as it's a "visual companion" style) - Episode 3 originally had a scene where Palpatine explains to Anakin that he influenced the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. A page from the original script is shown with the entire exchange. If it's considered Canon then Palpatine created Anakin to trick the Jedi into thinking he was the "Chosen One" and hypothetically Rey could turn out to actually be the real prophetic one. She brings balance by removing the Jedi and Sith altogether and bringing about an age where there isn't either: true balance.

    2 - Snoke specifically stated in this Throne Room confrontation with Kylo and Rey that: A - he orchestrated their mental connection, B - he controlled exactly what they saw in their visions of each other. Hence Kylo saying he knows Rey's parents are drunk junk traders/nobody is exactly what Snoke needed him to tell Rey to try and coerce her to the Dark Side but he overplayed his hand. (And half his torso, etc)

    3 - Furthering point 2 - We have no idea who Rey's parents are. As Abrams has taken over EP 9, I'm sure we'll get more of his fantastic [/sarcasm] "mystery box" baloney (ref. Lost, ref. Cloverfield, ref. Cloverfield Lane, ref. Anything he touches). However; Rian specifically left the door open for Rey's parents to be revealed in a Shyamalan-esque twist.

    Point 1 - it was always hinted that it was Plagueis that possibly created Anakin, (I'm not saying I do not believe you about some sort of draft script, but considering it is not in the final movie - it is not cannon) I thought that this could have been finally explained if it were Snoke to actually be Plagueis - but again, another reason why Johnson mucked up TLJ, but I won't linger on this point further, as ultimately this wouldn't really explain why Anakin was so powerful in the force, if he was indeed some Sith "trick". If Plagueis created Anakin, perhaps it could be that he was the vessel the force chose to complete the act, but ultimately it was the force acting through Plagueis to do so - not Plagueis' own power.

    Point 2 - I completely agree. I hope we get some sort of explanation about Rey's parentage, but I won't hold my breath.

    Point 3 - is somewhat contradictory to point 1. Again, why was Anakin so powerful in the force, if he were merely some Sith trick? Also, he was confirmed as the Chosen One to bring balance during his time on Mortis TCW reference). So it seems highly illogical. Again if Rey is the Chosen One reincarnated - then that would be like Jesus coming down from the heavens to save us from our sins every few decades - it doesn't work.
  • I wish we could wish away the Prophecy, midichlorians, and virgin births.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Even if the prophecy (which we don’t know anything about), explicitly stated that everyone descended from Anakin (not just anakin himself) is supposed to be some unbeatable god, even when they’re severely injured, cocky, impulsive, conflicted, and undertrained, I would ignore it because that would remove tension from the story and make the character boring.

    I’ve made my issues with Rey clear. Her overwhelming capabilities in TFA paired with an impecable moral code severely cripples the potential for a satisfying arc. Even though her battle with Kylo is nowhere near as one sided as people make it out to be, there was not sufficient buildup to justify her ultimate victory.

    That being said, all my criticisms are story and character related. I don’t care about whatever lore contradictions arose from TFA because the lore it contradicts is hot garbage. Especially because that lore was in turn undermining Empire (which is not hot garbage). For all of it’s overwhelming flaws, the ST is returning the franchise to a time before arbitrary underexplained prophecies, before midichlorians (which Lucas himself abandoned after Phantom), and before “force births” to a period where Star Wars was just a fun series about space wizards.

    Ok I want to find out what you mean exactly my friend, I do enjoy our discussions.

    Rey beat Kylo who according to Snoke was not fully trained, but certainly not untrained - he spent years training in the force and lightsaber combat - unlike Rey. But lets put their lightsaber duel to the side for a second. She resisted his force mind probe and infact turned the table lon him (much like Harry Potter and Snape, but at least that was when Harry was being trained to do so, where Rey has/was not). So She beat Kylo through the force without any explanation. She does so again when she wins the 1st tug of war against Anakin's old saber, she then of course goes on to beat Kylo in lightsaber combat (now beating him 3 times).

    Like you say Rey's overwhelming capabilities make her character arc boring - so why is it acceptable that Rey be overpowered for no reason, yet the person who should be logically overpowered (in every way - training, education, experience and birthright) not be and if he were overpowered as he should against Rey, that would not be ok - a little bit of an illogical double standard there in my view.

    I have never known the saga's lore to be contradictory. There are a few points that I thought were strangely phrased compared to reality, such as Yoda training Kenobi, when in fact it was QGJ, but Yoda trained everyone to some degree and also taught Kenobi to become one with the force. Yoda may have also become more of a mentor to Kenobi after QGS's death - in that Kenobi seems to go to yoda for advice a few times. Any way other than that I don't really see anything as contradictory in the saga.

    I presume you are talking about Midichlorians? That is a genetic way of explaining how force users can feel and use the force. If it were random (which is the case with many Jedi) it would not be so important in regard to the Skywalker lineage - which brings us back to Kylo being underpowered.

    Why was lore contradictory to TESB? let me know what you mean about this.

    I do not believe much was contradictory in TFA - what happened was not clearly explained. It was TLJ that took those "mystery boxes" left by JJ and turned them into hot garbage - Johnson could have done some pretty interesting things with those - but he didn't he just destroyed them instead.
  • @Boo

    Notice in point #1 how I specifically said "hypothetically" and "could"? Point #1 & Point #3 don't contradict because I'm not saying they're connected as actual facts, just separate musings. Point #2&3 however are connected, as I clearly stated such.

    I firmly believe that TLJ was a better crafted movie & Star Wars movie than Force Awakens, which was 50% A New Hope, 20% Fan Service (which is not how you actually make a good movie), %20 "mystery box"/Abrams ****, and 10% Star Trek-2009 (Basically the 10% of that movie that didn't include lens flares).
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    @Boo

    Notice in point #1 how I specifically said "hypothetically" and "could"? Point #1 & Point #3 don't contradict because I'm not saying they're connected as actual facts, just separate musings. Point #2&3 however are connected, as I clearly stated such.

    I firmly believe that TLJ was a better crafted movie & Star Wars movie than Force Awakens, which was 50% A New Hope, 20% Fan Service (which is not how you actually make a good movie), %20 "mystery box"/Abrams ****, and 10% Star Trek-2009 (Basically the 10% of that movie that didn't include lens flares).

    Sorry I rushed my response, lol - this is what I meant:

    Point 1 a) - it was always hinted that it was Plagueis that possibly created Anakin, (I'm not saying I do not believe you about some sort of draft script, but considering it is not in the final movie - it is not cannon) I thought that this could have been finally explained if it were Snoke to actually be Plagueis - but again, another reason why Johnson mucked up TLJ, but I won't linger on this point further, as ultimately this wouldn't really explain why Anakin was so powerful in the force, if he was indeed some Sith "trick". If Plagueis created Anakin, perhaps it could be that he was the vessel the force chose to complete the act, but ultimately it was the force acting through Plagueis to do so - not Plagueis' own power.

    Point 1 b) - is somewhat contradictory to point 1 a). Again, why was Anakin so powerful in the force, if he were merely some Sith trick? Also, he was confirmed as the Chosen One to bring balance during his time on Mortis TCW reference). So it seems highly illogical. Again if Rey is the Chosen One reincarnated - then that would be like Jesus coming down from the heavens to save us from our sins every few decades - it doesn't work. Not to mention Anakin already destroyed the Sith and the corrupted Jedi teachings were no more. Luke had used his attachment and love between father and son to redeem vader - something the jedi (Kenobi and Yoda) could not conceive of.

    Point 2 - I completely agree. I hope we get some sort of explanation about Rey's parentage, but I won't hold my breath.

    Point 3 - Again, I completely agree here. This in fact is a point I have made time and time again myself.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Just to add a few pennies to the complaint bucket here, and to toss a few blind musings:

    1 - (Pre-Disney and not sure if the book is Canon as it's a "visual companion" style) - Episode 3 originally had a scene where Palpatine explains to Anakin that he influenced the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. A page from the original script is shown with the entire exchange. If it's considered Canon then Palpatine created Anakin to trick the Jedi into thinking he was the "Chosen One" and hypothetically Rey could turn out to actually be the real prophetic one. She brings balance by removing the Jedi and Sith altogether and bringing about an age where there isn't either: true balance.

    2 - Snoke specifically stated in this Throne Room confrontation with Kylo and Rey that: A - he orchestrated their mental connection, B - he controlled exactly what they saw in their visions of each other. Hence Kylo saying he knows Rey's parents are drunk junk traders/nobody is exactly what Snoke needed him to tell Rey to try and coerce her to the Dark Side but he overplayed his hand. (And half his torso, etc)

    3 - Furthering point 2 - We have no idea who Rey's parents are. As Abrams has taken over EP 9, I'm sure we'll get more of his fantastic [/sarcasm] "mystery box" baloney (ref. Lost, ref. Cloverfield, ref. Cloverfield Lane, ref. Anything he touches). However; Rian specifically left the door open for Rey's parents to be revealed in a Shyamalan-esque twist.

    Point 1 - it was always hinted that it was Plagueis that possibly created Anakin, (I'm not saying I do not believe you about some sort of draft script, but considering it is not in the final movie - it is not cannon) I thought that this could have been finally explained if it were Snoke to actually be Plagueis - but again, another reason why Johnson mucked up TLJ, but I won't linger on this point further, as ultimately this wouldn't really explain why Anakin was so powerful in the force, if he was indeed some Sith "trick". If Plagueis created Anakin, perhaps it could be that he was the vessel the force chose to complete the act, but ultimately it was the force acting through Plagueis to do so - not Plagueis' own power.

    Point 2 - I completely agree. I hope we get some sort of explanation about Rey's parentage, but I won't hold my breath.

    Point 3 - is somewhat contradictory to point 1. Again, why was Anakin so powerful in the force, if he were merely some Sith trick? Also, he was confirmed as the Chosen One to bring balance during his time on Mortis TCW reference). So it seems highly illogical. Again if Rey is the Chosen One reincarnated - then that would be like Jesus coming down from the heavens to save us from our sins every few decades - it doesn't work.

    Lucas himself admitted he was going to put the exchange in the movie but at the last minute changed his mind and left it out.

    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Another thing that bugs me is everyone insisting we needed to know more about Snoke to have him be the over-arching bad guy, to have him be worthy of his position. We needed screen time devoted to where he came from, why he was leader, why he chose Kylo etc.

    People seem to forget that other than being briefly mentioned in EP 4 and showing up as a hologram in EP 5, Palpatine showed up in EP 6 shooting force lightning out of his gnarly old fingers and growling at everyone. We had to wait 16 years to figure out Lucas' own vision of where he came from, his motivations, etc.

    If the internet existed back in 1980 when Empire came out and angered then-hardcore fans I'm sure Lucas would have stolen Luke's landspeeder prop and driven into a bridge abutment in LA.

    I'm glad that Rian made a movie that wasn't devoted to fan service and answering questions everyone had from Abrams lacklustre storytelling, and their own internet speculations.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Another thing that bugs me is everyone insisting we needed to know more about Snoke to have him be the over-arching bad guy, to have him be worthy of his position. We needed screen time devoted to where he came from, why he was leader, why he chose Kylo etc.

    People seem to forget that other than being briefly mentioned in EP 4 and showing up as a hologram in EP 5, Palpatine showed up in EP 6 shooting force lightning out of his gnarly old fingers and growling at everyone. We had to wait 16 years to figure out Lucas' own vision of where he came from, his motivations, etc.

    If the internet existed back in 1980 when Empire came out and angered then-hardcore fans I'm sure Lucas would have stolen Luke's landspeeder prop and driven into a bridge abutment in LA.

    I'm glad that Rian made a movie that wasn't devoted to fan service and answering questions everyone had from Abrams lacklustre storytelling, and their own internet speculations.

    I would disagree on this point.

    Yes the Emperor was only came into E5 briefly and mainly was in ROTJ and died - yes we didn't know much about him other than he was an evil dark lord emperor.

    However - we essentially came into the middle of the story - we know he grew to power within the Republic and turned it into the Galactic Empire. The PT showed us the beginning of that story - how he rose to power and took over the galaxy.

    We also learned more about the sith - only 2 there are Master & Apprentice (Emperor & Vader) and that the Emperor was obsessed with power and certainly did not share it with anyone, including the likes of Snoke.

    Overall the PT & OT combined was a story of how evil can consume good and how evil can be redeemed and beaten.

    We saw our heroes in the OT fight for the freedom of the galaxy and defeat the evil Empire and its dark lord Emperor.

    Now we fast forward to Snoke in the ST - he is just suddenly there. The audience having followed the Rebels to victory from the demise of the Republic deserve to kinda know why none of that seems to matter if someone like Snoke can pop out of nowhere.

    Unlike the OT, we have seen the history that has shaped the galaxy - so having Snoke literally come out of nowhere really does not make any sense.

    Snoke's presence in the ST undermines Palpatine as a villain who carefully orchestrated his rise to power in 3 PT movies, and the fight of the Rebels to restore freedom to the galaxy over the course of 3 movies in the OT.

    That is 6 movies (not including R1) to establish good over evil in the plight of the galaxy.

    Snoke just shows up with an overpowered revived empire literally out of nowhere - I think to the audience, that deserves a little explanation. It ruins the all movies before.

    Again, JJ was setting something up for Johnson to do something with this as well, but Johnson just destroyed it...again.
  • Good. Abrams is terrible.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    edited October 2018
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Good. Abrams is terrible.

    True, but while JJ broke the mould giving us an overpowered Rey, return of the EMpire and an evil villain like Snoke out of nowhere - he played with the lore and got the star wars community speculating for 2 years! about the lore as to how this could all be - but assured answers would come.

    Johnson is the one who took all of that and threw it in the garbage - thereby breaking lore of the franchise completely.

    I believe where JJ could see creativity in what he was doing, Johnson just saw destruction in the name of being "fresh", lol
  • I think Johnson put more actual lore into his movie than Abrams did. Abrams threw Easter Eggs, remake scenes, and desperate fan service in to get parents who saw ANH/TPM to drag their kids to the movie 2-3 times. He took the nostalgia playbook and just changed a few names. I loved what Rian did with Luke and thought it fit his character perfectly.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Not sure I want to go there with Luke - no wait, I will.

    Luke ANH - at risk of his own life he dives into the Death Star detention block to save a princess he doesn't know. He only left Tatooine to become a Jedi, but Kenobi was killed, so he still risks his life to pilot an x-wing against the Death Star.

    Luke ESB - Luke again risks his life agaist the counsel of his mentors Yoda and Kenobi, to go to Bespin, save his friends and face Vader.

    Luke ROTJ - After discovering Vader (a murdering Sith Lord) is his father, he risks his life to face Vader and his Emperor to redeem his father or at least keep them distracted from the battle of Endor so the entire galaxy can be saved. Indeed he surrendered to the Empire as he felt his entire presence on Endor was putting his friends at risk. After his lightsaber duel, rather than destroying Vader he disarms himself and would rather die than strike down his on flesh and blood, he would rather be a true Jedi than turn to the darkside!

    Now we get Luke TLJ - Who had attempted to murder his nephew in his sleep, because he might be bad. He then abandons his friends and family to live on an island on some unknown planet to die. He then does not care about the conflict in the galaxy, he does not care about his family or friends (even when he was told Han was murdered and Leia is in danger against the First Order). He wants the Jedi Order to die and refuses to actually train Rey. He then gets bonked on the head by Yoda and decides to project himself to death across the galaxy.

    People can change - but after years of the EU crafting stories as to how powerful Luke would be at the head of a new Jedi Order etc - we get what we get from Johnson in TLJ...Jake Skywalker (Mark Hamil calls him).

    Back to JJ - I think what he did **** with TFA. I hated the fanboy service in that movie. It was a new era with new possibilities and what did we get?... More x-wings, tie fighters, stormtroopers, Empire v. Rebels and a desert planet and a Death Star - BORING!

    The few good things that JJ had going for TFA, like I said, Johnson threw them out like garbage for the sake of being fresh and damning the franchise lore and its fanbase audience for the sake of being fresh. Fresh is not always a good theing. A fresh smelly piece of poo, is still poo, no matter how fresh it is.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    There are many other reasons why TLJ was an overall bad movie - Rose, Holdo etc.It was just bad.

    The things I did like were: set design, set locations, props, effects, music score, wardrobe/costumes - that's about it.
  • Boo wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Even if the prophecy (which we don’t know anything about), explicitly stated that everyone descended from Anakin (not just anakin himself) is supposed to be some unbeatable god, even when they’re severely injured, cocky, impulsive, conflicted, and undertrained, I would ignore it because that would remove tension from the story and make the character boring.

    I’ve made my issues with Rey clear. Her overwhelming capabilities in TFA paired with an impecable moral code severely cripples the potential for a satisfying arc. Even though her battle with Kylo is nowhere near as one sided as people make it out to be, there was not sufficient buildup to justify her ultimate victory.

    That being said, all my criticisms are story and character related. I don’t care about whatever lore contradictions arose from TFA because the lore it contradicts is hot garbage. Especially because that lore was in turn undermining Empire (which is not hot garbage). For all of it’s overwhelming flaws, the ST is returning the franchise to a time before arbitrary underexplained prophecies, before midichlorians (which Lucas himself abandoned after Phantom), and before “force births” to a period where Star Wars was just a fun series about space wizards.

    Ok I want to find out what you mean exactly my friend, I do enjoy our discussions.

    Rey beat Kylo who according to Snoke was not fully trained, but certainly not untrained - he spent years training in the force and lightsaber combat - unlike Rey. But lets put their lightsaber duel to the side for a second. She resisted his force mind probe and infact turned the table lon him (much like Harry Potter and Snape, but at least that was when Harry was being trained to do so, where Rey has/was not). So She beat Kylo through the force without any explanation. She does so again when she wins the 1st tug of war against Anakin's old saber, she then of course goes on to beat Kylo in lightsaber combat (now beating him 3 times).

    Like you say Rey's overwhelming capabilities make her character arc boring - so why is it acceptable that Rey be overpowered for no reason, yet the person who should be logically overpowered (in every way - training, education, experience and birthright) not be and if he were overpowered as he should against Rey, that would not be ok - a little bit of an illogical double standard there in my view.
    .

    Tbh i can't believe this thread is still active, but anyway. Also yeah i m not gonna answer half your comment, mainly because i m too tired.

    Anyways: Point 1!: The Lightsaber Duel in the Forest

    First, lets accept that Rey's physical ability is acceptable. She's a scavenger, a line of work that demands a lot, and she's not bad at it. She also has cool force powers, which help.

    Second, Rey has been in melee combat situations before. You literally cant deny this becuase a bunch of thugs got trashed earlier in the movie.

    Third, Kylo is hurt by Chewbacca's Bowcaster. I have figured this out using my amazing detective skills of watching it happen and seeing blood everywhere and seeing him limp. And hit his chest, for some reason.

    Fourth, Kylo was poked by Finn (If i remember the scence correctly). Btw, this makes somewhat sense because
    a. He was still injured at that time
    b. Finn was trained by Phasma
    c. Phasma is a good fighter
    d. Phasma thought Finn was adequate.
    e. Kylo decides to forget to use the force.

    So Kylo is hurt twice, and Rey is not a total noob at this melee game.

    Fifth, Rey doesnt do all sort of fancy acrobatics, her tatics are mainly blunt rather than stylish. One move was literally her raising her lightsaber over her head, running at Kylo and swinging it down. Thats not that bad or fancy to think of, honestly.

    Sixth, Rey is mostly on the run for the first half of the fight. She sorts of swings, blocks, go back, repeat. This means that at this point she's actually losing, and kylo decides to aggravate the wound by chasing after her.

    Basically, Rey's techniques are kinda blunt. She's not Ataruing or Soresuing her way to victory.

    Seventh, Kylo's Lightsaber is worse than Rey's. Those too spikes do nothing but hinder him, especially since it hurts if you touch them.

    Next, Tug of War!: Tug of War implies that they were standing on opposite sides, which they were not. Rey was behind Kylo, she actually just pulled it more than he anticipated. Given the fact that he was pulling it at the same time, this should be easy for anyone who can use the force.

    Oh, Jedi Mind Trick Moment. This has an explanation, but its fairly hypothethical, so i ll shut up about it. But its explainable. Its mostly concerns Kylo's Style and such. Again, hypothethical, so i ll concede the point for now.

    Thats it for now

    @Boo
  • @swgohfan29

    All excellent points regarding the lightsaber duel, and I'll add in as well:

    JJ basically starts beating you over the head with how OP Chewie's Bowcaster is from the very first time it was used on the freighter. Then Han uses it again to send people flying, multiple people. Chewie sends people flying. Han says several times how much he "likes this thing". We get it. It's a ridiculous weapon JJ, please stop.

    He then shows Kylo taking it full force to the ribcage/abdomen and then trying to fight essentially one-handed against Rey who's quite adept at one-on-one melee combat.

    His cross-guard lightsaber is completely ludicrous. The guards do not actually guard, as they are produced by two metal extensions from the main handle. All one would have to do is slide their lightsaber down the main blade and cut off those metal protrusions. Weapon = useless. But it looks cool! And hey! Never seen a rippling/crackling lightsaber before! [/distraction]

    At least, unlike Joss Whedon with Avengers there was some actual payoff to hinting/showing powerful weapon combos earlier in the movie. I'll give JJ that...
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    swgohfan29 wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Even if the prophecy (which we don’t know anything about), explicitly stated that everyone descended from Anakin (not just anakin himself) is supposed to be some unbeatable god, even when they’re severely injured, cocky, impulsive, conflicted, and undertrained, I would ignore it because that would remove tension from the story and make the character boring.

    I’ve made my issues with Rey clear. Her overwhelming capabilities in TFA paired with an impecable moral code severely cripples the potential for a satisfying arc. Even though her battle with Kylo is nowhere near as one sided as people make it out to be, there was not sufficient buildup to justify her ultimate victory.

    That being said, all my criticisms are story and character related. I don’t care about whatever lore contradictions arose from TFA because the lore it contradicts is hot garbage. Especially because that lore was in turn undermining Empire (which is not hot garbage). For all of it’s overwhelming flaws, the ST is returning the franchise to a time before arbitrary underexplained prophecies, before midichlorians (which Lucas himself abandoned after Phantom), and before “force births” to a period where Star Wars was just a fun series about space wizards.

    Ok I want to find out what you mean exactly my friend, I do enjoy our discussions.

    Rey beat Kylo who according to Snoke was not fully trained, but certainly not untrained - he spent years training in the force and lightsaber combat - unlike Rey. But lets put their lightsaber duel to the side for a second. She resisted his force mind probe and infact turned the table lon him (much like Harry Potter and Snape, but at least that was when Harry was being trained to do so, where Rey has/was not). So She beat Kylo through the force without any explanation. She does so again when she wins the 1st tug of war against Anakin's old saber, she then of course goes on to beat Kylo in lightsaber combat (now beating him 3 times).

    Like you say Rey's overwhelming capabilities make her character arc boring - so why is it acceptable that Rey be overpowered for no reason, yet the person who should be logically overpowered (in every way - training, education, experience and birthright) not be and if he were overpowered as he should against Rey, that would not be ok - a little bit of an illogical double standard there in my view.
    .

    Tbh i can't believe this thread is still active, but anyway. Also yeah i m not gonna answer half your comment, mainly because i m too tired.

    Anyways: Point 1!: The Lightsaber Duel in the Forest

    First, lets accept that Rey's physical ability is acceptable. She's a scavenger, a line of work that demands a lot, and she's not bad at it. She also has cool force powers, which help.

    Second, Rey has been in melee combat situations before. You literally cant deny this becuase a bunch of thugs got trashed earlier in the movie.

    Third, Kylo is hurt by Chewbacca's Bowcaster. I have figured this out using my amazing detective skills of watching it happen and seeing blood everywhere and seeing him limp. And hit his chest, for some reason.

    Fourth, Kylo was poked by Finn (If i remember the scence correctly). Btw, this makes somewhat sense because
    a. He was still injured at that time
    b. Finn was trained by Phasma
    c. Phasma is a good fighter
    d. Phasma thought Finn was adequate.
    e. Kylo decides to forget to use the force.

    So Kylo is hurt twice, and Rey is not a total noob at this melee game.

    Fifth, Rey doesnt do all sort of fancy acrobatics, her tatics are mainly blunt rather than stylish. One move was literally her raising her lightsaber over her head, running at Kylo and swinging it down. Thats not that bad or fancy to think of, honestly.

    Sixth, Rey is mostly on the run for the first half of the fight. She sorts of swings, blocks, go back, repeat. This means that at this point she's actually losing, and kylo decides to aggravate the wound by chasing after her.

    Basically, Rey's techniques are kinda blunt. She's not Ataruing or Soresuing her way to victory.

    Seventh, Kylo's Lightsaber is worse than Rey's. Those too spikes do nothing but hinder him, especially since it hurts if you touch them.

    Next, Tug of War!: Tug of War implies that they were standing on opposite sides, which they were not. Rey was behind Kylo, she actually just pulled it more than he anticipated. Given the fact that he was pulling it at the same time, this should be easy for anyone who can use the force.

    Oh, Jedi Mind Trick Moment. This has an explanation, but its fairly hypothethical, so i ll shut up about it. But its explainable. Its mostly concerns Kylo's Style and such. Again, hypothethical, so i ll concede the point for now.

    Thats it for now

    @Boo

    I thought you were too tired? lol.

    Again if you read the first part of my post you decided to reply to, you will see I said "But lets put their lightsaber duel to the side for a second" and spoke about other issues where Rey is overpowering a Skywalker - you then proceed to argue a point, I put aside. I put the duel aside because I have heard your arguments before. Where there is some merit to your arguments, the hold up is not as good as you sound.

    These first 2 points are fairly similar but I will break them down enough -

    First, lets accept that Rey's physical ability is acceptable. She's a scavenger, a line of work that demands a lot, and she's not bad at it. She also has cool force powers, which help.

    Force powers - where did she learn how to do this - you cant say she "downloaded" Kylo's training like the book suggests - this is not the matrix here. Mind Control is a very difficult force power that Luke attempted multiple times and failed multiple times at in his training (now EU) but looking to the movies - he only managed this power in ROTJ - lots of training under his belt. Rey just does it, easy peasy lemon squeasy!

    Second, Rey has been in melee combat situations before. You literally cant deny this becuase a bunch of thugs got trashed earlier in the movie.

    Yes she has been in combat situations before - with a staff. I have trained in weapons and can tell you that a staff is very, very different from a sword. I can only imagine that a lightsaber is even more different than a sword (depending on weight etc.)

    Third, Kylo is hurt by Chewbacca's Bowcaster. I have figured this out using my amazing detective skills of watching it happen and seeing blood everywhere and seeing him limp. And hit his chest, for some reason.

    Yes ylo was injured - no need to call **** Tracy on that one. He hit his chest to tap into his pain to fuel the darkside. Yes he was injured, yes he was also morally broken after killing Han (as suggested by Snoke). Regardless he was still trained and could use the force, but doesn't - I don't know why

    Fourth, Kylo was poked by Finn (If i remember the scence correctly). Btw, this makes somewhat sense because
    a. He was still injured at that time

    Yes Kylo was injured, but still accomplished in lightsaber combat, he tapped into the darkside to fuel him in that fight.

    b. Finn was trained by Phasma
    c. Phasma is a good fighter
    d. Phasma thought Finn was adequate.


    So what if FInn was trained by Phasma?
    Is Phasma a good fighter - she has a little less than 2 mins screen time in each movie and gets her butt kicked twice!
    Finn beat Phasma, so I'd hope she at least would recognize some skill on his part - however he did lose against a mere Stormtrooper at Maz's Castle earlier on, so?

    e. Kylo decides to forget to use the force.

    Yes, Kylo frequently tends to forget that he weilds the force - like how he forgot he had the force when disarmed in Snoke's throne room too.


    Fifth, Rey doesnt do all sort of fancy acrobatics, her tatics are mainly blunt rather than stylish. One move was literally her raising her lightsaber over her head, running at Kylo and swinging it down. Thats not that bad or fancy to think of, honestly.

    Sixth, Rey is mostly on the run for the first half of the fight. She sorts of swings, blocks, go back, repeat. This means that at this point she's actually losing, and kylo decides to aggravate the wound by chasing after her.

    Basically, Rey's techniques are kinda blunt. She's not Ataruing or Soresuing her way to victory.


    Here you are basically saying Rey is not skilled, she really has no idea what she is doing, she is on defence and randomly swinging her lightsaber in a clumsy way.

    Kylo actually doesn't seem to be aggravating his wounds too much and when he does so the pain fuels his darkside. Im not a doctor really who could fully comment that Kylo's wounds are being aggravated or not to be honest, but he doesn't look too distressed.

    Next, Tug of War!: Tug of War implies that they were standing on opposite sides, which they were not. Rey was behind Kylo, she actually just pulled it more than he anticipated. Given the fact that he was pulling it at the same time, this should be easy for anyone who can use the force.

    Yes traditional tug of war requires 2 opponents at least on opposite ends of a rope - in a straight line. But the rope in this scenario is an invisible force - who is stronger at telekinesis. That does nto require eachother to stand opposite, the opponents could stand anywhere they like considering there is no rope...right?

    Oh, Jedi Mind Trick Moment. This has an explanation, but its fairly hypothethical, so i ll shut up about it. But its explainable. Its mostly concerns Kylo's Style and such. Again, hypothethical, so i ll concede the point for now.


    Glad you conceded on the mind trick - I think I got it covered above anyway, or do you mean mind resistance and probe?
  • Imagine your entire purpose being called into question by a massive failure on your part?

    Luke, like Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan, failed to see darkness before it was too late. Knowing what happened to the Galaxy the last few times the Jedi failed, he, in a moment of weakness, went to strike down Ben. He realized he was succumbing to his fears and stopped himself but it was already too late.

    Yoda went into exile for decades because of the colossal failure of letting Palpatine come to power, yet Luke is supposed to come out of hiding because Han died, Ben wears a mask, and some tart shows up with his old lightsaber?

    He failed the same way previous Masters and Grandmasters did, and all this after succeeding in finding the good in Vader, he realized the error in trying to control and lay claim to the force.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Imagine your entire purpose being called into question by a massive failure on your part?

    Luke, like Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan, failed to see darkness before it was too late. Knowing what happened to the Galaxy the last few times the Jedi failed, he, in a moment of weakness, went to strike down Ben. He realized he was succumbing to his fears and stopped himself but it was already too late.

    Yoda went into exile for decades because of the colossal failure of letting Palpatine come to power, yet Luke is supposed to come out of hiding because Han died, Ben wears a mask, and some tart shows up with his old lightsaber?

    He failed the same way previous Masters and Grandmasters did, and all this after succeeding in finding the good in Vader, he realized the error in trying to control and lay claim to the force.

    Luke sacrificed everything to redeem Vader, not kill him, yet he was going to kill his nephew???? Luke could have and would have done a number of things to redeem Kylo or prevent his fall - not killing him, even if he had fallen.

    Johnson's commentary on TLJ is that Luke is hiding to end the Jedi and stop the cycle of dark rising etc etc. But he forgets that the dark had already risen in Kylo & Snoke - so Luke feels he just walk away? That is not Luke Skywalker.

    Furtermore, according to JJ's script of TLJ, Luke was to have boulders levitating around him at the climactic end scene when Rey hands him Anakin's old saber - this was cut prior to release of the movie due to Johnson's script - this would have changed everything, including why he was in hiding in the first place.

    Personally I would have liked to have seen JJ's version as to why Luke was on Ach-To. I thought it would have been good that he went there to find answers about the so called prophecy and what it means to be a Skywalker and bringing balance to the force - far more interesting than what we got, that's for sure.

    Yoda went into exile after failing because the Jedi were being hunted down and he knew he had to lay low until Anakin's children were of age to be taught (because Jedi require teachers...unlike Rey apparently).

    Yoda did not go into hiding simply because he "failed". Same with Obi Wan. They hid to preserve the Jedi teachings to eventually overthrow the Empire and rule of the Sith. Luke just hid and shut himself off like a crazy person with their head in the sand - again, that's not Luke Skywalker, that is "Jake Skywalker".

  • JJ & Rian are directors. Not fans, ignore press saying otherwise. They took the job, banked the check, and that was all they worried about. This is a huge wake up, it's all about the Benjamin's. If 9 is not a screaming FINACIAL success they will blame us, and go on and keep on keeping on.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    JJ & Rian are directors. Not fans, ignore press saying otherwise. They took the job, banked the check, and that was all they worried about. This is a huge wake up, it's all about the Benjamin's. If 9 is not a screaming FINACIAL success they will blame us, and go on and keep on keeping on.

    Sad but true. Unfortunately not the same can be said for the MCU, where it has an evolving story respectful to what has already come to pass as well as how they are moving forward - they listen to the fans, give the fans what they want as well as keep the movies fantastic, releasing several movies a year - all being big box office hits.

    Then you get to Star Wars, where they do everything they can to ignore the wants of fans, in fact not even be respectful of fans at all or what has already come to pass in prior movies. Now Iger is screaming Star Wars fatigue - which doesn't even make sense when you look at Marvel - and what is more confusing is that both Star Wars and Marvel are under the Disney umbrella.

    None of this makes any sense at all.
  • EA_Cian
    971 posts EA Staff (retired)
    Removed two posts, reminder to please keep it civil.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Does anyone know why Kylo does not use the force against Snoke's guards, nw that has been brought up?
  • Boo wrote: »
    JJ & Rian are directors. Not fans, ignore press saying otherwise. They took the job, banked the check, and that was all they worried about. This is a huge wake up, it's all about the Benjamin's. If 9 is not a screaming FINACIAL success they will blame us, and go on and keep on keeping on.

    Sad but true. Unfortunately not the same can be said for the MCU, where it has an evolving story respectful to what has already come to pass as well as how they are moving forward - they listen to the fans, give the fans what they want as well as keep the movies fantastic, releasing several movies a year - all being big box office hits.

    Then you get to Star Wars, where they do everything they can to ignore the wants of fans, in fact not even be respectful of fans at all or what has already come to pass in prior movies. Now Iger is screaming Star Wars fatigue - which doesn't even make sense when you look at Marvel - and what is more confusing is that both Star Wars and Marvel are under the Disney umbrella.

    None of this makes any sense at all.

    George Lucas is singing "How do you like me know?" LOL
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • @Boo for the same reason Vader doesn't use his insanely strong Force Powers to pull Luke back up onto the platform in ESB when he lets go. Or the same reason Maul didn't use them to make Obi Wan let go of the light fixture he was hanging from.

    We know there are countless situations where even in Lucas' OT and PT that a well-timed application of force power X would have completely changed the outcome.

    But they need drama & tension. It's the biggest problem with having a supernatural entity/ability as powerful as the Force, and especially in a series with such a rabid fan base. Case in point: Luke's Force Dopplegänger. A legitimate Force power according to canonical Star Wars books, yet when it was shown everyone went "Wait a minute! Heck no!".

    Heck, for speculation purposes why don't Jedi/Sith just use their Force powers to turn off their opponents lightsaber mid-duel? They clearly don't "hold" the button down to turn them on.
  • Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Heck, for speculation purposes why don't Jedi/Sith just use their Force powers to turn off their opponents lightsaber mid-duel? They clearly don't "hold" the button down to turn them on.


    I'll go you one better. Why don't the Jedi pop some pop corn, grab a drink and find a comfy place to sit and watch the Sith destroy themselves with all their back stabbing and in-fighting?

    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
  • @DuneSeaFarmer
    I'd watch a movie about that.
  • Boo
    3444 posts Member
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    @Boo for the same reason Vader doesn't use his insanely strong Force Powers to pull Luke back up onto the platform in ESB when he lets go. Or the same reason Maul didn't use them to make Obi Wan let go of the light fixture he was hanging from.

    We know there are countless situations where even in Lucas' OT and PT that a well-timed application of force power X would have completely changed the outcome.

    But they need drama & tension. It's the biggest problem with having a supernatural entity/ability as powerful as the Force, and especially in a series with such a rabid fan base. Case in point: Luke's Force Dopplegänger. A legitimate Force power according to canonical Star Wars books, yet when it was shown everyone went "Wait a minute! Heck no!".

    Heck, for speculation purposes why don't Jedi/Sith just use their Force powers to turn off their opponents lightsaber mid-duel? They clearly don't "hold" the button down to turn them on.

    I don't think the projection ability Luke did was what got fans so upset - it was everything he did that came before (already discussed above no need to return) and his sudden death from exertion. I thought his projection ability was unique and cool. But that's me.

    Regarding Snoke's guards, Yoda slammed Palpatine's guards pretty easily, no reason Kylo (a Skywalker) couldn't have done the same thing. However I grant you - it would be boring and not much of a fight.

    Force users typically do not use force powers against each other - Maul in your example was a fledgling Sith Lord and didn't have the power or experience to use the force as affectively as those such as Dooku or Sidious against Obi Wan. As for Vader, his heart wasn't in his "fight" with Luke - he never wanted to kill him. He let his son go, knowing he would survive and win him over with the knowledge he gave that he was his father.

    We see force users weild the force against each other but most often times becomes a stale mate - Dooku said to Yoda "its obvious this contest cannot be decided upon our knowledge of the force, but our skills with a lightsaber" Dooku was also forced to fight Obi wan with his lightsaber after he deflected his lightening attack. Sidious also bested Yoda through an explosive stale mate situation with their use of the force.

    So all of this is key that the force is only rarely used in lightsaber combat between 2 force users, except where they may catch the other off guard (re: Dooku v Obi Wan in ROTS).So this adds tension to the fight.

    Now back Kylo v. Snoke's Guards - if he tried to use the force against them and it was blocked, this would indicate they too wield the force - giving tension to the scene and why he didn't use the force - but this was not the case.

    My point in the Kylo v. Guards scene was it was made dramatic for the sake of being dramatic and the entire scene in this regard is illogical.
  • Vendi1983
    3271 posts Member
    edited October 2018
    @Boo

    All the scenes are structured for the sake of drama...We're just nerd-arguing with no hope of winning.

    You said Maul in your example was a fledgling Sith Lord and didn't have the power or experience to use the force as affectively as those such as Dooku or Sidious

    Yet did he not send "equally fledgling" Obi Wan down the shaft by doing exactly what you said he is incapable of? Force pushing?! Your point on that one is moot.

    Invented rules about why they can't use Force powers are exactly that. Yoda could have easily redirected Dookus lightning right back at him as he clearly caught it in his hand. We saw in Rogue One that Vader was able to "all of a sudden" catch and hold a blaster bolt to then release it at another soldier later on. That isn't questioned. It's just regarded as Vader being Vader.

    If Kylo should have used the force v. Guards then Luke should have shown more of his force powers in his fight on Jabba's barge. See? Can argue that there are countless times where applying force powers would have made a situation less detrimental/dangerous/more logical. But hey...
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