New TW matchmaking

Replies

  • It should be based on the average GP of the participants, not the overall GP of the guild or those that signed up. A 2.8 mil average GP guild is way stronger than a 2.3 mil average GP guild.
    Which is what my guild is currently facing, and will likely lose based on just the front row defences. (War just started).
  • Mef1428
    144 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Kyno wrote: »
    But you are stating it's a fact that it always happens, and that doesnt seem to be the case.
    No, the poster is stating it as a fact that it has happened to their guild, not that it happens to all guilds all the time.

    It has happened to my guild at least 3 times, and at least one of those guilds did it intentionally (they have been called out in the TW matchmaking feedback thread on multiple occasions).

    And no, you don't always get 45 on 45 or 48 on 48. In each case that it has happened to my guild, it is 47 or 48 (them) on 50 (us), the TW board is reduced to 24 slots per sector, and the opposing guild with 50 members had a 10-15m GP lead on us. This is completely unnecessary gamesmanship that an algorithm should easily catch, considering how many full guilds are actually close to us in GP.

    Easy partial fix - if a guild doesn't go in with 50, either (a) match them with a guild with the same number of entrants and similar GP or (b) match them with a guild with HIGHER average GP - to encourage participation, and to disincentivize sandbagging.

    Whatever fixes to the matchmaking system are made, if they don't address sandbagging, it is a failure.
  • Gannon
    1619 posts Member
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    Also, wanted to come back and mention this cuz it's been bothering me.. Not sure why you guys use the term "sandbagging" rather than "exploit," in this case the latter is much more applicable. Just saying..
    1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE
    2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
    ...but it's all semantics.

    sandbagging is not a real thing. our guild tells players not to join if they arent going to be active, not to "sandbag" anything.

    if only 45 players join, then you get matched to a guild of like numbers with like average gp.

    the part of the equation you are missing in your thought process is you get matched based upon total gp of all characters 6000gp and above.

    so if alot of people in your guild have a majority of thier gp coming from a bunch of g6 g7 and g8 toons over 6000 go. your going to get matched to some people who have more dense gp and get killed.

    keep your rosters lean

    I'm with Starson on this one. Over the past several months, we have tested this extensively and shared the results with other guilds, here in the forums, etc. The system seems to always prioritize similar active gp and not members entered, meaning you could have 25 guys with 4m each v 50 guys with 2m each. That's the whole problem. I'm not saying it's guaranteed or anything, just that it seems extremely predictable. After all this time, only 2 of our wars were losses. Both times, all members entered we faced full tray walls and got wrecked. The rest were completely one sided flawless victories where the opponents barely break one zone, if that..

    as far as lean rosters, no-one in my guild does that. 70% of my arsenal is lvl60, g7. same with most of my guild. Everyone farms broadly. you'd be surprised how many teams you can break down or clean up with junk.
  • Simple fix would be to matchup Guilds based on overall GP rather than active GP (when joining TW)

  • * Having 100-150m GP guilds, intentionally down register to qualify for < 50m GP fights (sandbag), so even with 1-2 Traya and Revan and other uber (end-game) teams on the defense, it prevents the 40m GP team from even getting through the first section essentially guaranteeing them a win.
    * In this currently matchup, my 44m GP team (qualified with 40m TW) is fighting a 115m GP team with dozens of Trayas and Revans, and we don't have a single Traya or Revan in our entire guild

    The rewards for a losing guild with 110-119 active GP are better than the rewards for a winning guild with 40-49 active GP. The rewards and match-making are based only on the active participants. It wouldn't even make sense for a guild to force half its players to sit out to guarantee a "win" with worse rewards than they could get by losing at full participation.

  • GP isn't a precise measure of a guild's strength to begin with.
  • Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain
  • I do not believe that sandbagging is as prevalent as many here do, I’m sure it does happen but I think it’s the exception and not the rule.

    One of the things that would help greatly in matchmaking is to make several more reward tiers. With the amount guilds have grown since the introduction of TW, the old tiers are REALLY outdated.
  • Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain

    I don't think I follow. The join period ended. The match was made. Both guilds set defenses. Then your opponent had 5 members leave. Doesn't this hurt them more than you? They have 5 fewer rosters for offense.

    I'm not really sure what you think should have happened either. You get rematched?
  • Shellzbutt
    300 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain

    I don't think I follow. The join period ended. The match was made. Both guilds set defenses. Then your opponent had 5 members leave. Doesn't this hurt them more than you? They have 5 fewer rosters for offense.

    I'm not really sure what you think should have happened either. You get rematched?

    No because even with those members now gone the opponents guild is still 5milgp higher than us.
    And now they also have those 5 guys 16mil worth of high end defenses set.
    Its a win win for the opponents
    What i think should of happened is obvious ...those that left should have their squads removed too, simple....
    They are no longer in the guild , remove their squads also
  • Shellzbutt wrote: »
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain

    I don't think I follow. The join period ended. The match was made. Both guilds set defenses. Then your opponent had 5 members leave. Doesn't this hurt them more than you? They have 5 fewer rosters for offense.

    I'm not really sure what you think should have happened either. You get rematched?

    No because even with those members now gone the opponents guild is still 5milgp higher than us.
    And now they also have those 5 guys 16mil worth of high end defenses set.
    Its a win win for the opponents

    How's that a win win?
    It's a loss for the 5 who get no Zeta's, in what would be an easier win if they stayed.
  • Shellzbutt wrote: »
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain

    I don't think I follow. The join period ended. The match was made. Both guilds set defenses. Then your opponent had 5 members leave. Doesn't this hurt them more than you? They have 5 fewer rosters for offense.

    I'm not really sure what you think should have happened either. You get rematched?

    No because even with those members now gone the opponents guild is still 5milgp higher than us.
    And now they also have those 5 guys 16mil worth of high end defenses set.
    Its a win win for the opponents
    What i think should of happened is obvious ...those that left should have their squads removed too, simple....
    They are no longer in the guild , remove their squads also

    It’s not possible to leave after the match has been made. You mean they get booted from the guild? If that’s the case then yeah that would hurt your opponent.
  • It’s crazy to me that guilds would go through such shenanigans for a single extra zeta mat and a few scraps of gear. It’s not worth the effort.
  • Shellzbutt wrote: »
    jhbuchholz wrote: »
    Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Also when people leave after setting defenses in tw their squads should automatically be removed.
    We are facing a guild with less people but 20milgp more.
    Once they set defense 5 guys with a total gp of 16mil left straightaway
    (Probably brought in just to dump all their high rosters on the front lines before going back to their own guilds to carry on with raids) while now we are left out gunned against their defenses they set before leaving.
    They are no longer in the opponents guild so why should their squads still be there??
    This is an exploit that harms the way tws are fought and should be rectified asap.
    The opponents guild now during the attacking phase sits only 5milgp above us which is fair BUT the 16mil worth of squads dumped into their defense by now non guild members remain

    I don't think I follow. The join period ended. The match was made. Both guilds set defenses. Then your opponent had 5 members leave. Doesn't this hurt them more than you? They have 5 fewer rosters for offense.

    I'm not really sure what you think should have happened either. You get rematched?

    No because even with those members now gone the opponents guild is still 5milgp higher than us.
    And now they also have those 5 guys 16mil worth of high end defenses set.
    Its a win win for the opponents

    But the match was already made by then. If they had stuck around they'd be even stronger during the attack phase.

    I still don't see how it's an exploit or even good for your opponent.

    5 members set defenses and leave, getting no rewards. Loss.

    Guild is matched as if all members will be present for defense and attack. Guild is significantly weaker for the attack. Loss.

    Your defense has 5 fewer 3M GP rosters to stand up to. Win. For you.
  • Whatever..
    If someone leaves remove their squads that all im going to say
  • Shellzbutt wrote: »
    Whatever..
    If someone leaves remove their squads that all im going to say

    How do you know they leave the guild mid TW?
  • BrtStlnd wrote: »
    It’s crazy to me that guilds would go through such shenanigans for a single extra zeta mat and a few scraps of gear. It’s not worth the effort.

    ^^ right? I brought this up awhile ago - especially about sandbagging. There seems to be a real edge to it. So like if you keep missing 600- you sit out a TW. Hit a raid early- etc etc.

    I always liked the rewards in TW because they were low stakes. While I do agree there needs to be more updating after 160mil gp and up I’m not sure how.

    This game is fun and the people I’m in a guild/alliance with make it more fun.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    What exploit there is no exploit for territory wars

    The battle exploit, the fog of war exploit, etc.

    * Battle exploit = allows player to alter the values of any character, allowing even a 1 star toon to one-hit kill an entire squad

    * Fog of war exploit = allows player to see all of the defenses on all of the sections (even the ones still 'locked')

    Then there's "not exploits, but not playing nice" things

    * Having 100-150m GP guilds, intentionally down register to qualify for < 50m GP fights (sandbag), so even with 1-2 Traya and Revan and other uber (end-game) teams on the defense, it prevents the 40m GP team from even getting through the first section essentially guaranteeing them a win.
    * In this currently matchup, my 44m GP team (qualified with 40m TW) is fighting a 115m GP team with dozens of Trayas and Revans, and we don't have a single Traya or Revan in our entire guild

    Are you in my guild?
    Because that sounds like every TW for me
  • I don't really care how the matchmaking works as long as it does. The difference between winning and losing is minimal, but it's frustrating/boring when your guild is mismatched with another - even if you're on the winning side.
    xSWCr - Nov '15 shard - swgoh.gg kalidor-m
  • StarSon wrote: »
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    Also, wanted to come back and mention this cuz it's been bothering me.. Not sure why you guys use the term "sandbagging" rather than "exploit," in this case the latter is much more applicable. Just saying..
    1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE
    2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
    ...but it's all semantics.

    sandbagging is not a real thing. our guild tells players not to join if they arent going to be active, not to "sandbag" anything.

    if only 45 players join, then you get matched to a guild of like numbers with like average gp.

    the part of the equation you are missing in your thought process is you get matched based upon total gp of all characters 6000gp and above.

    so if alot of people in your guild have a majority of thier gp coming from a bunch of g6 g7 and g8 toons over 6000 go. your going to get matched to some people who have more dense gp and get killed.

    keep your rosters lean

    Almost all of this is false. I'll take you at your word that your guild has people drop if they won't be active. But the rest of it is just wrong. Matchmaking does not currently look at GP at all, or number of people that signed up.

    So, while you may always happen to get paired with guilds that also are missing 4 or 5 people, that is not the norm. It is a well known tactic to either keep people out on a rotation for overall higher rewards, or to keep 2 or 3 ticket alts in the guild that don't join TW. This allows guilds to go in at 46 or 47, which usually results in a very favorable matchup for that guild. Certainly not always, but most of the time.



    no it "was" exactly how TW did match making as has been said by the developers.

    I dont see how leaving a few people out gives anyone an advantage. the whole purpose of the sign up period is to lock in your active GP and number of players so it can match a similar number of players with active GP.
    I have reached out to multiple guilds we faced and have never had that crazy of an actual differnce regardless of what their total gp is.

    one of the factors you are over looking is that all the toons under 6000gp are not included in the match making process which makes sense because they arent eligable to use. so while you might "see" a guild as having a large or small amount of GP, guilds with lean rosters have an advantage because they dont have a bunch of useless toons over 6000gp weighing them down in the matchmaking process.so anyone that has a gear6 jedi guardian or ugnaught (or any other crap toon) that is 6000+go, they are hurting you, because 4 of those toons equals roughly the same gp as a g12 cls or Rjt. 1 cls or rjt can solo 5 crap toons like that easily.

    it's not the match making that's screwed up, it all the people with crap rosters.

    my guild hasnt lost a TW yet. came close once, but today will be our 52nd win.

    and it isnt from "sandbagging" we just tell people who dont have time to contribute to not join, because it hurts the guild to have to carry a member who puts up donuts on offense and defense.

    it sounds to me like a bunch of whining. get a better strategy, build better rosters and start holding those that dont contribute accountable. it's not cgs fault.
  • try actually reaching out to the guild you're facing and see what their active numbers are
  • Boov
    604 posts Member
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    Also, wanted to come back and mention this cuz it's been bothering me.. Not sure why you guys use the term "sandbagging" rather than "exploit," in this case the latter is much more applicable. Just saying..
    1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE
    2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
    ...but it's all semantics.

    sandbagging is not a real thing. our guild tells players not to join if they arent going to be active, not to "sandbag" anything.

    if only 45 players join, then you get matched to a guild of like numbers with like average gp.

    the part of the equation you are missing in your thought process is you get matched based upon total gp of all characters 6000gp and above.

    so if alot of people in your guild have a majority of thier gp coming from a bunch of g6 g7 and g8 toons over 6000 go. your going to get matched to some people who have more dense gp and get killed.

    keep your rosters lean

    Almost all of this is false. I'll take you at your word that your guild has people drop if they won't be active. But the rest of it is just wrong. Matchmaking does not currently look at GP at all, or number of people that signed up.

    So, while you may always happen to get paired with guilds that also are missing 4 or 5 people, that is not the norm. It is a well known tactic to either keep people out on a rotation for overall higher rewards, or to keep 2 or 3 ticket alts in the guild that don't join TW. This allows guilds to go in at 46 or 47, which usually results in a very favorable matchup for that guild. Certainly not always, but most of the time.



    no it "was" exactly how TW did match making as has been said by the developers.

    I dont see how leaving a few people out gives anyone an advantage. the whole purpose of the sign up period is to lock in your active GP and number of players so it can match a similar number of players with active GP.
    I have reached out to multiple guilds we faced and have never had that crazy of an actual differnce regardless of what their total gp is.

    one of the factors you are over looking is that all the toons under 6000gp are not included in the match making process which makes sense because they arent eligable to use. so while you might "see" a guild as having a large or small amount of GP, guilds with lean rosters have an advantage because they dont have a bunch of useless toons over 6000gp weighing them down in the matchmaking process.so anyone that has a gear6 jedi guardian or ugnaught (or any other crap toon) that is 6000+go, they are hurting you, because 4 of those toons equals roughly the same gp as a g12 cls or Rjt. 1 cls or rjt can solo 5 crap toons like that easily.

    it's not the match making that's screwed up, it all the people with crap rosters.

    my guild hasnt lost a TW yet. came close once, but today will be our 52nd win.

    and it isnt from "sandbagging" we just tell people who dont have time to contribute to not join, because it hurts the guild to have to carry a member who puts up donuts on offense and defense.

    it sounds to me like a bunch of whining. get a better strategy, build better rosters and start holding those that dont contribute accountable. it's not cgs fault.

    all i read was: guild asks members to not join TW, has 52 wins. =D
    Nah, it's probably just a coincidence you guys are just really good at TW.
  • 3blz22qpn69k.jpg
    this was 2 TWs ago and we have won the 2 since also, never had a problem with matchmaking. like the time when our guild was 93 million gp and got matched to a 127 milliongp guild, and we wiped the floor with them.
    it's a matter of strategy, skill, building lean powerful rosters, and holding people accountable to carry their weight and know how to take out teams
    yab0dmbjryaj.jpg
  • How do I see what GP is the other team?

    Usually I just look up the other team when after the setup phase is complete and I can see who we are facing.
  • Gannon
    1619 posts Member
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    3blz22qpn69k.jpg
    this was 2 TWs ago and we have won the 2 since also, never had a problem with matchmaking. like the time when our guild was 93 million gp and got matched to a 127 milliongp guild, and we wiped the floor with them.
    it's a matter of strategy, skill, building lean powerful rosters, and holding people accountable to carry their weight and know how to take out teams
    yab0dmbjryaj.jpg
    I agree completely!
    at it's inception war was amazing and seemed to function exactly this way..
    ... but now there's clearly an issue with the matchmaking. I've reached out to every guild I've faced, and nearly all of them were 30m or more below us in total, and at least 10m less active gp. There's also the DSR bot in discord which breaks down exactly how different the participants are. For example like how many revens, trayas, chewies, total zetas, total g12s, and so on. Seen some ridiculous differences, and your guild's war practice sounds exactly like mine. This current war is much closer, but last one was a 105m guild against our 149. they had about 90m active to our 125. total annihilation.
  • Russdpipes wrote: »
    3blz22qpn69k.jpg
    this was 2 TWs ago and we have won the 2 since also, never had a problem with matchmaking. like the time when our guild was 93 million gp and got matched to a 127 milliongp guild, and we wiped the floor with them.
    it's a matter of strategy, skill, building lean powerful rosters, and holding people accountable to carry their weight and know how to take out teams
    yab0dmbjryaj.jpg
    Yeah, matter of strategy and skill.. except times, when ur guild has no revan, and opponent has like.. 15 or smth like this
    With everything the same (same number of Traya and others), but with difference in revan squads, i just can’t think about strategy to win) but may be i’m not creative enough, I don’t know))
  • I don't think these changes made a difference; this TW my guild is facing a guild with 20 million more GP. Sure we have 5 more participating but still one side with their guild having around 300 more of each of the following, g11 toons, g12 toons, and zetas.
  • I don't think these changes made a difference; this TW my guild is facing a guild with 20 million more GP. Sure we have 5 more participating but still one side with their guild having around 300 more of each of the following, g11 toons, g12 toons, and zetas.

    changes go into effect for the next tw
  • twstdbydsn wrote: »
    How do I see what GP is the other team?

    Usually I just look up the other team when after the setup phase is complete and I can see who we are facing.

    that doesnt t you what thier active gp is, or how many of them joined
  • Russdpipes wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Russdpipes wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    Also, wanted to come back and mention this cuz it's been bothering me.. Not sure why you guys use the term "sandbagging" rather than "exploit," in this case the latter is much more applicable. Just saying..
    1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE
    2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
    ...but it's all semantics.

    sandbagging is not a real thing. our guild tells players not to join if they arent going to be active, not to "sandbag" anything.

    if only 45 players join, then you get matched to a guild of like numbers with like average gp.

    the part of the equation you are missing in your thought process is you get matched based upon total gp of all characters 6000gp and above.

    so if alot of people in your guild have a majority of thier gp coming from a bunch of g6 g7 and g8 toons over 6000 go. your going to get matched to some people who have more dense gp and get killed.

    keep your rosters lean

    Almost all of this is false. I'll take you at your word that your guild has people drop if they won't be active. But the rest of it is just wrong. Matchmaking does not currently look at GP at all, or number of people that signed up.

    So, while you may always happen to get paired with guilds that also are missing 4 or 5 people, that is not the norm. It is a well known tactic to either keep people out on a rotation for overall higher rewards, or to keep 2 or 3 ticket alts in the guild that don't join TW. This allows guilds to go in at 46 or 47, which usually results in a very favorable matchup for that guild. Certainly not always, but most of the time.



    no it "was" exactly how TW did match making as has been said by the developers.

    I dont see how leaving a few people out gives anyone an advantage. the whole purpose of the sign up period is to lock in your active GP and number of players so it can match a similar number of players with active GP.
    I have reached out to multiple guilds we faced and have never had that crazy of an actual differnce regardless of what their total gp is.

    It gives an advantage because it breaks the matchmaking system. If a 210M guild drops 3 players and gets paired with a 185M guild, the 210 is still at a huge advantage. Has nothing to do with lean rosters. The 47 left at over 4M GP are still way better than half of the 185M guild.
    one of the factors you are over looking is that all the toons under 6000gp are not included in the match making process which makes sense because they arent eligable to use. so while you might "see" a guild as having a large or small amount of GP, guilds with lean rosters have an advantage because they dont have a bunch of useless toons over 6000gp weighing them down in the matchmaking process.so anyone that has a gear6 jedi guardian or ugnaught (or any other crap toon) that is 6000+go, they are hurting you, because 4 of those toons equals roughly the same gp as a g12 cls or Rjt. 1 cls or rjt can solo 5 crap toons like that easily.

    I am not overlooking anything. I have seen how it works, and what happens, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it almost always gives the guild that drops people an advantage.
    it's not the match making that's screwed up, it all the people with crap rosters.

    The first part of this statement is verifiably false.
    my guild hasnt lost a TW yet. came close once, but today will be our 52nd win.

    Says the sandbagger.
    and it isnt from "sandbagging" we just tell people who dont have time to contribute to not join, because it hurts the guild to have to carry a member who puts up donuts on offense and defense.

    And this is one of the most common excuses from sandbagging guilds. And you are proof that it works, with your 52 wins. Have all 52 been super favorable matches? Probably not. But you can't honestly say it didn't contribute.
    it sounds to me like a bunch of whining. get a better strategy, build better rosters and start holding those that dont contribute accountable. it's not cgs fault.

    It sounds like whining because you are using the tactic, and the people you use against don't like unfair fights. How dare they.
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