C3P0 Nerf or not??

Replies

  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Padas wrote: »
    You would think when you add a new character with resistance syngergy and a mass call to assist abily that also bring new exposes mechanics that one of the first things you would check is a Zfinn leader and how it works with those new exposes. It's not like the teams even use scarce Rebels. Its all Raid Han chewie Cls and sometimes Ezra the most obscure one I have seen used is probably Princess Leia.
    It's not just the combination of characters that causes the problem.

    Nor is it the combinations of characters and that particular enemy.

    It's the characters, the enemy, the condition, and a mod loadout for a great deal of potency all at the same time. It's a confluence of events and setup that is not necessarily obvious except in retrospect when you have to test the content against every game mode and in many team comps with a limited amount of man-hours.

    Yes...it was so difficult to create that we had, at least, two videos posted explaining the issue...both had Nerf in the title...less than 24 hours after 3P0 was released...
    How dare the community question the legitimacy of CG's beta testing.
  • TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    I don't think it's fair to basically annihilate a character at the start of battle just because their c3p0 was able to outspeed my thrawn.

    Revan says hi.

    The only difference I see is that Revan can only annihilate specific characters, such as traya and and Nest. If you don't include those two, you don't get the annihilate on turn one. And even then, Traya can survive if modded properly+sith bastilla is in the house. The fact that they could take out my extremely durable sion and I couldn't even take a turn for several rounds wasn't cool.
  • Soulman wrote: »
    Yes...it was so difficult to create that we had, at least, two videos posted explaining the issue...both had Nerf in the title...less than 24 hours after 3P0 was released...
    How dare the community question the legitimacy of CG's beta testing.
    CG uses in-house testers.

    Last I checked, LinkedIn had CG listed as having 75-200 employees.

    How many of those do you think are in-house testers? How much time do you think they spend on testing?

    Let's say they have twenty in-house testers. Let's say they spend every working hour nine-to-five for two work weeks only testing C-3PO. That's 1600 man-hours. It is also an impractical assumption for testing a single character.

    My guild alliance's discord has almost seven hundred members. We can match those man-hours in an afternoon. We are not unique in that regard. And no, not everyone needs C-3PO to contribute brainpower to engaging that content.

    CG is not stupid or lazy or inadequate. Players outnumber devs over a thousand to one. Through weight of numbers, the playerbase's collective brainpower will break stuff. Then when the problems crop up, CG will fix it.

    Yes, the videos cropped up within 24 hours. Those 24 hours were a ton of man-hours of player engagement with the new content. But even with those videos, it's not an obvious fault. After they dropped, many players tried it themselves and were able to score a couple million damage or so, which is good but not unreasonable, but were not able to reproduce the loop because actually getting that loop requires modding for an outright insane amount of potency. I can believe CG tested these sorts of combinations, and it did not create a loop in testing, because it takes a very focused setup such that even if you've been shown exactly how the loop works, you might still fail to produce it.
    Still not a he.
  • TVF
    32019 posts Member
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    I don't think it's fair to basically annihilate a character at the start of battle just because their c3p0 was able to outspeed my thrawn.

    Revan says hi.

    The only difference I see is that Revan can only annihilate specific characters, such as traya and and Nest.

    I'm pretty sure Revan can annihilate CUP too. I don't know what you mean by "specific characters such as Traya and Nest."
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of the change to the shipment tab. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Soulman wrote: »
    Yes...it was so difficult to create that we had, at least, two videos posted explaining the issue...both had Nerf in the title...less than 24 hours after 3P0 was released...
    How dare the community question the legitimacy of CG's beta testing.
    CG uses in-house testers.

    Last I checked, LinkedIn had CG listed as having 75-200 employees.

    How many of those do you think are in-house testers? How much time do you think they spend on testing?

    Let's say they have twenty in-house testers. Let's say they spend every working hour nine-to-five for two work weeks only testing C-3PO. That's 1600 man-hours. It is also an impractical assumption for testing a single character.

    My guild alliance's discord has almost seven hundred members. We can match those man-hours in an afternoon. We are not unique in that regard. And no, not everyone needs C-3PO to contribute brainpower to engaging that content.

    CG is not stupid or lazy or inadequate. Players outnumber devs over a thousand to one. Through weight of numbers, the playerbase's collective brainpower will break stuff. Then when the problems crop up, CG will fix it.

    Yes, the videos cropped up within 24 hours. Those 24 hours were a ton of man-hours of player engagement with the new content. But even with those videos, it's not an obvious fault. After they dropped, many players tried it themselves and were able to score a couple million damage or so, which is good but not unreasonable, but were not able to reproduce the loop because actually getting that loop requires modding for an outright insane amount of potency. I can believe CG tested these sorts of combinations, and it did not create a loop in testing, because it takes a very focused setup such that even if you've been shown exactly how the loop works, you might still fail to produce it.

    The problem is that this is a continuous problem. Zfinn with BB8 and threepio is not much a stretch either.

    Any faction that 3po matches up with should’ve been tested - esp leads.

    If it were Chex mix I would understand lol

    The only thing I get from cg now a days is a disorganized mess.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Soulman wrote: »
    Yes...it was so difficult to create that we had, at least, two videos posted explaining the issue...both had Nerf in the title...less than 24 hours after 3P0 was released...
    How dare the community question the legitimacy of CG's beta testing.
    CG uses in-house testers.

    Last I checked, LinkedIn had CG listed as having 75-200 employees.

    How many of those do you think are in-house testers? How much time do you think they spend on testing?

    Let's say they have twenty in-house testers. Let's say they spend every working hour nine-to-five for two work weeks only testing C-3PO. That's 1600 man-hours. It is also an impractical assumption for testing a single character.

    My guild alliance's discord has almost seven hundred members. We can match those man-hours in an afternoon. We are not unique in that regard. And no, not everyone needs C-3PO to contribute brainpower to engaging that content.

    CG is not stupid or lazy or inadequate. Players outnumber devs over a thousand to one. Through weight of numbers, the playerbase's collective brainpower will break stuff. Then when the problems crop up, CG will fix it.

    Yes, the videos cropped up within 24 hours. Those 24 hours were a ton of man-hours of player engagement with the new content. But even with those videos, it's not an obvious fault. After they dropped, many players tried it themselves and were able to score a couple million damage or so, which is good but not unreasonable, but were not able to reproduce the loop because actually getting that loop requires modding for an outright insane amount of potency. I can believe CG tested these sorts of combinations, and it did not create a loop in testing, because it takes a very focused setup such that even if you've been shown exactly how the loop works, you might still fail to produce it.

    You're making my point for me.

    Again, this isn't some obscure team composition using some obscure combination of unique abilities. This is exactly what the build was intended for. ZFinn expose mechanic has been under scrutiny before. C-3P0's kit further exploits the very mechanic that has caused issues in the past. This isn't the first time a character has cause an "unintended interaction" with the heroic sith raid.
    We can't look past these types of "mistakes". Some of us spent money in order to get premium content sooner than others. Now our value is being greatly diminished because of an error that should have been easily foreseen and prevented.
  • Ultra
    9759 posts Moderator
    I think testing is different for us and CG,

    According to a Software Engineering book by Ian Sommerville, "Testing is intended to show that a program does what it is intended to do and to discover program defects before it is put into use. "

    Basically, is C3PO working as intended? Does the game crash when he uses his basic or special? Does it freeze? Is he correctly granting one stack of translation per special ability? Is confuse debuff working as it should? Is translation applying the stacking benefits? does the game freeze when someone gains a translation after having a maximum of 4 stacks?

    and so on... I think in that regard, C3PO was tested fine. I haven't seen or encountered any issues using him in a team. Haven't seen anyone else point out issues with his kit either.

    Given how limited manpower and time they had, I understand they were unable to test C3PO in raids or pair him up with zFinn (although a very very obvious combination)

    I think the testing isn't perfect by any means such as Bastilla not applying Tenacity correctly when she was released, and they shouldn't recommend squad synergies unless they've tested the unit with multiple team compositions by theorycrafting (which sorta implies they had time to test C3PO under zFinn lead)
  • YaeVizsla
    3448 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    The problem is that this is a continuous problem. Zfinn with BB8 and threepio is not much a stretch either.

    Any faction that 3po matches up with should’ve been tested - esp leads.

    If it were Chex mix I would understand lol

    The only thing I get from cg now a days is a disorganized mess.
    Except it's not zFinn with 3PO and BB-8.

    People have tried that lineup with some Rebels and been unable to replicate it. The people who've managed to succeed with it are ones who have modded up potency to extreme degrees. It's such a specific setup not in terms of team comp but of mods that you can, in good faith, test the exact team composition used to solo Traya and instead get a reasonable result of a few million. The method is more than just slap these specific characters together and auto Traya.
    Still not a he.
  • TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    I don't think it's fair to basically annihilate a character at the start of battle just because their c3p0 was able to outspeed my thrawn.

    Revan says hi.

    The only difference I see is that Revan can only annihilate specific characters, such as traya and and Nest.

    I'm pretty sure Revan can annihilate CUP too. I don't know what you mean by "specific characters such as Traya and Nest."

    Ah I see, so you are running CUP in arena? How is that working out for you? I'm talking about arena viable characters obviously. Besides, not only could this infinite loop from 3CP0 wipe out Sion, but any character it gets started on. All that would matter is who's c3p0 is faster. Don't straw-man my argument.
  • TVF
    32019 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    I don't think it's fair to basically annihilate a character at the start of battle just because their c3p0 was able to outspeed my thrawn.

    Revan says hi.

    The only difference I see is that Revan can only annihilate specific characters, such as traya and and Nest.

    I'm pretty sure Revan can annihilate CUP too. I don't know what you mean by "specific characters such as Traya and Nest."

    Ah I see, so you are running CUP in arena? How is that working out for you? I'm talking about arena viable characters obviously. Besides, not only could this infinite loop from 3CP0 wipe out Sion, but any character it gets started on. All that would matter is who's c3p0 is faster. Don't straw-man my argument.

    Are there arena viable characters he can't annihilate? I mean I know the answer, but the way you phrased it makes zero sense.
    The CGDF is no more. Now we hate CG because of the change to the shipment tab. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • A great way to fix the whole c3p0 problem would be to make it that rebels get advantage instead of inflicting expose when they use their basics.
  • mesa176750 wrote: »
    A great way to fix the whole c3p0 problem would be to make it that rebels get advantage instead of inflicting expose when they use their basics.
    The problem is advantage isnt by any means as good as an undodgeable expose... The rebels i use have between +100% to 80% crit so whats the point of giving them advantage? Expose does 20% target hp as damage so arround 10k hp that bypass defense etc.
    Expose is also a debuff so if it get resisted its 5% TM to the whole team...

    If it even were 20%hp based undodgeable damage added to each basic (like chewie) instead of expose... We lose the tm from resisted debuffs for cls and the tm gain from Zfinn but at least its direct damage without the need to break the expose xD
  • Ultra wrote: »
    I think testing is different for us and CG,

    According to a Software Engineering book by Ian Sommerville, "Testing is intended to show that a program does what it is intended to do and to discover program defects before it is put into use. "

    Basically, is C3PO working as intended? Does the game crash when he uses his basic or special? Does it freeze? Is he correctly granting one stack of translation per special ability? Is confuse debuff working as it should? Is translation applying the stacking benefits? does the game freeze when someone gains a translation after having a maximum of 4 stacks?

    and so on... I think in that regard, C3PO was tested fine. I haven't seen or encountered any issues using him in a team. Haven't seen anyone else point out issues with his kit either.

    Given how limited manpower and time they had, I understand they were unable to test C3PO in raids or pair him up with zFinn (although a very very obvious combination)

    I think the testing isn't perfect by any means such as Bastilla not applying Tenacity correctly when she was released, and they shouldn't recommend squad synergies unless they've tested the unit with multiple team compositions by theorycrafting (which sorta implies they had time to test C3PO under zFinn lead)

    This is great Input!
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    The problem is that this is a continuous problem. Zfinn with BB8 and threepio is not much a stretch either.

    Any faction that 3po matches up with should’ve been tested - esp leads.

    If it were Chex mix I would understand lol

    The only thing I get from cg now a days is a disorganized mess.
    Except it's not zFinn with 3PO and BB-8.

    People have tried that lineup with some Rebels and been unable to replicate it. The people who've managed to succeed with it are ones who have modded up potency to extreme degrees. It's such a specific setup not in terms of team comp but of mods that you can, in good faith, test the exact team composition used to solo Traya and instead get a reasonable result of a few million. The method is more than just slap these specific characters together and auto Traya.

    You’re right. And my fault for being too general. I’m just always under the belief if you’re creating something to try your best to see what loopholes people work out. Obvi this is impossible to do for everything.

    My take on it - again in a general way - if there are players that get this in 1 or 2 days, then the devs should be too. I get this is an extreme case but rebels are a faction that threepio is in.
  • @Vinny_Vader_Vedi

    I agree with you that finn or c3 p0 is the issue. Look at this video.



    There is zero reason that a no mod team should be able to solo the haat, mostly in auto battle. Screw that. Maybe make it so that the cooldown cannot be reduced for oh my goodness or make it that the effects from zeta finn can only happen once per turn.
  • Ultra
    9759 posts Moderator
    What's wrong with a tank solo?
  • Ultra wrote: »
    What's wrong with a tank solo?

    Should you be able to solo the tank with no mods and mostly auto battle? I'm not opposed to soloing the raid, just against the way its done. The existing teams are more strategic than just popping oh my goodness 10,000 times.
  • Ultra
    9759 posts Moderator
    edited December 2018
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    What's wrong with a tank solo?

    Should you be able to solo the tank with no mods and mostly auto battle? I'm not opposed to soloing the raid, just against the way its done. The existing teams are more strategic than just popping oh my goodness 10,000 times.
    Its more or less the same other than P2

    P1 I can auto solo using CLS, Raid Han, Hoda after killing the adds which is TMR strat like Rancor raid is
    P3-P4 is basically keep using basic while dots accumulate using Vader/Wampa its not complex
    P2 can also be solo'd by the same team except there is a tank bug which decreases the enrage counter by 2 instead of 1 after a topple which makes it difficult to solo because you only have 7 turns to beat the tank

    The current solo teams all just spam basic over and over with an occasional culling blade. Oh my goodness is the same thing but saves you 15 minutes more (45 minutes vs 30 minutes for me at least). I don't think strategy is in the equation here, just basic spam
  • @Ultra go do any of those strategies with NO MODS though. Good luck with no speed whatsoever, no potency, no Crit Damage.
  • Ultra
    9759 posts Moderator
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    go do any of those strategies with NO MODS though. Good luck with no speed whatsoever, no potency, no Crit Damage.
    It won't work but I guess its just me that finds it silly that the distinction of having mods or not a dealbreaker on determining if its ok to solo a raid that is outdated.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    What's wrong with a tank solo?

    Should you be able to solo the tank with no mods and mostly auto battle? I'm not opposed to soloing the raid, just against the way its done. The existing teams are more strategic than just popping oh my goodness 10,000 times.
    Its more or less the same other than P2

    P1 I can auto solo using CLS, Raid Han, Hoda after killing the adds which is TMR strat like Rancor raid is
    P3-P4 is basically keep using basic while dots accumulate using Vader/Wampa its not complex
    P2 can also be solo'd by the same team except there is a tank bug which decreases the enrage counter by 2 instead of 1 after a topple which makes it difficult to solo because you only have 7 turns to beat the tank

    The current solo teams all just spam basic over and over with an occasional culling blade. Oh my goodness is the same thing but saves you 15 minutes more (45 minutes vs 30 minutes for me at least). I don't think strategy is in the equation here, just basic spam

    Much more strategy involved in what you said, and maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me like you described using 2 teams. You actually have to plan it out. I don't have to use a moddless group with little investment to all of a sudden get the full rancor out.

    Seriously, just make it so c3 p0's special cooldown cannot be reduced and it will be fine.
  • Easiest fix ever which doesn't involve screwing the player base over is that when this happens they should just lock certain toons out of heroic raid phases. Block Finn from p3 and the problem is fixed without either buffing a raid which was already programmed with a silly amount of rng needed to make anything work or screwing with an old faction which beginning players can bank on while they are getting ready for Rey heroes journey.
  • Can somebody give me a legit reason why their upset about zfinn/c3po autoing a 2 year old raid? Seems to me people that don't have c3po are using this as an excuse to cry for a nerf so they can hold their arena rank.
  • Raids don't reflect Arena Rank. Try again.
  • Darthsetty99
    255 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    Raids don't reflect Arena Rank. Try again.

    True but if team is nerfed for the raid it's going to be a less viable counter to traya and revan.
  • Gannon
    1515 posts Member
    Revan? My understanding was that the starting tenacity up prevented it working against revan, same as bastilla. They'd get destroyed before starting an infinite loop
  • Ultra
    9759 posts Moderator
    Gannon wrote: »
    Revan? My understanding was that the starting tenacity up prevented it working against revan, same as bastilla. They'd get destroyed before starting an infinite loop
    Chewbacca applies Tenacity down on basic, so you can do an infinite loop against them



  • Gannon
    1515 posts Member
    Gotcha, forgot about chewy tenacity down. Ok, so basically it breaks arena also lol
  • What they need to do is knock down rebels' expose on basic chance by 10 or 20% instead of being guaranteed.

    Nerfing finns ability seems counter to the whole idea of making 3p0 promote cross faction squads

    Treyas tenacity is high enough that you need a real lot of it, so your team won't have crazy offense or speed. I ran the team with 50~80% potency and held the first topple for quite a while, but only did ~2mil. Damage.

    Cutting down the expose chance by just a little bit would break the infinite loop cycle, keep old toons unchanged, and also keep Finn+rebel team viable for STR raid. I don't think it would hurt pvp modes much, if at all, and overall I think it would let 3p0 maintain more value than if they just buff STR/Nerf finn
  • Gannon
    1515 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Can we just switch the factions named in "cyborg relations" and "intermediary" instead of nerfing 3p0, fin, or traya?
    Republic would be a much smaller pool of units to interact with the expose, and would also make clones halfway decent..
    Post edited by Gannon on
  • I think switching the faction bonuses would be the easiest solution to the loop issue across the board. Galactic republic units equipped with expose on basic attack wouldn't work for the current exploit, right?
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