Grand Arena GP matching (pretty big issue)

Replies

  • My claim was there is a new, different disadvantage that didn’t exist before. Regardless of any other disadvantages that did in fact exist before. With different ramifications. Because TW and GA are different things. At no point did I argue the existence of this previous disadvantage; in fact I acknowledged it several times, the first of these being six days ago. One of these disadvantages I feel largely eclipses the other. I don’t know how many more times I can say the same thing, so good luck with your comprehension skills! Done feeding the troll now.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    My claim was there is a new, different disadvantage that didn’t exist before.

    And that is false. The exact same thing was always a disadvantage in TW.

    A single player with a lot of "fluff" GP is at a disadvantage in GA if matched against a player from the same GP bracket but with little or no "fluff" GP.

    A guild with a lot of "fluff" GP is at a disadvantage in TW if matched against a guild from the same GP bracket but with little or no "fluff" GP.

    The disadvantage remains until the player/guild has enough "non-fluff" GP that that alone would qualify for the top bracket.
  • BadunkAdunk
    24 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    A single player is not a guild. That alone places a big caveat on your theory that it’s the same exact disadvantage. Yes, they are related disadvantages. But at this point I’m not really sure what you’re getting at other than to argue semantics.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    A single player is not a guild. That alone places a big caveat on your theory that it’s the same exact disadvantage. Yes, they are related disadvantages. But at this point I’m not really sure what you’re getting at other than to argue semantics.

    But a lot of "fluff" GP puts both the player and the guild at a disadvantage in the exact same way. The disadvantage always existed contrary to your original claim.
  • BadunkAdunk
    24 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    My original claim was not contrary to the existence of that disadvantage. I took that disadvantage into account days ago and am not sure why I’m still talking about it. The two disadvantages are related, but the variables in a guild’s roster are wildly more complex than the variables in a single player’s. That alone draws a distinction, to say nothing of the fact that the algorithms used to calculate matching are quite different in GA than they are in TW, and are based on average strongest squad power rather than overall GP.

    They are two different things.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    My original claim was not contrary to the existence of that disadvantage.

    Here's your original claim:
    You were put at a disadvantage that didn’t exist previously by wasting resources that didn’t matter much until the advent of Grand Arena.


  • That’s not what I originally said. That’s a statement I made in elaboration later on. If we’re going to argue semantics, which I’m really trying to squash here.

    What I said then still doesn’t negate what I’m saying now, which is that every last little resource didn’t matter nearly as much until GA. They still mattered, but they mattered to a degree of technicality. How much they mattered was related to the specific GP dynamics of the specific player’s guild, but now that’s not the case.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    That’s not what I originally said. That’s a statement I made in elaboration later on. If we’re going to argue semantics, which I’m really trying to squash here.

    That's the statement I responded to. That's what you and I are discussing.

    Your original post discusses the disadvantage of having a lot of "fluff" GP during GA. Having a lot of "fluff" GP was always a disadvantage in TW. You may not notice the effect of your own personal "fluff" GP during TWs, since it's just a drop in the 50-member ocean, but your own personal "fluff" GP still puts your guild at a disadvantage. If the guild as a whole has a lot of "fluff" GP, then the effect will be noticable. Hence that disadvantage existed previously and your statement is wrong.

  • BadunkAdunk
    24 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    That’s literally the third statement you responded to. How am I supposed to discern which “original claim” we’re talking about?

    I’m not going to concede to your arbitrary moving of goal-posts. You have a point and so do I, but I’ve clarified mine clearly and concisely, and you keep clinging to the precise meaning of each word. Which I’ve responded to adequately.

    If you’re trying to prove that I made a mistake by leveling all my toons to 50 to hold mods, I conceded that days ago. What exactly is your point, at this point?
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    That’s literally the third statement you responded to. How am I supposed to discern which “original claim” we’re talking about?

    I quoted it several times during this discussion. I referred to it by using the same words (your own words) several times. Quoting myself as an example: "Your claim that it's a disadvantage, that didn't exist before, is still false. " That would make it pretty clear to me. For some reason it's not clear to you.

    I'm not trying to prove that you made a mistake by leveling your toons. Wether it's a mistake or not is for yourself to decide. My only point is, that "fluff" GP was always a disadvantage in TW, just like it is now in GA, and hence the disadvantage also existed previously. If we agree on this, I'm good. If you still want to discuss it, then fine be my as well.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Oh! And this little gem shows, that you know which statement, I'm refering to:
    My claim was there is a new, different disadvantage that didn’t exist before.
  • Still with the semantics. That “little gem” is my original claim with the counter-argument, which had been put forward in the first response, taken into account for the purposes of condensing. I’m sorry I didn’t describe it as “my original claim with the counter-argument, which had been put forward in the first response, taken into account for the purposes of condensing” when I first described it as my “original claim”, but that would have been a lot of typing for no reason. Or so I thought.

    Also, when you say “original statement”, I’d think it would apply to the original post, rather than some other statement out of a good 20 or so you quoted 2 or 3 times. There’s some more semantic fodder for you to chew on which I look forward to hearing about. Semantic wars!

    I don’t what else to say, except that a related disadvantage existed previously, but now there are two related disadvantages, and one is worse than the other.

  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    I don’t what else to say, except that a related disadvantage existed previously, but now there are two related disadvantages, and one is worse than the other.

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion - but I believe we finally agree: Fluff GP is a disadvantage in GA, and it was also a disadvantage previously in TW.
  • Agreed, but I never didn’t.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Agreed, but I never didn’t.

    Well, if you simply kept discussing for your own fun, then that's fine as well.
  • Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.

    And I only discussed your false claim, that the disadvantage wasn't there previously. But ok, that might explain why you kept going.
  • Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.

    And I only discussed your false claim, that the disadvantage wasn't there previously. But ok, that might explain why you kept going.

    You're missing a key point that was made earlier, TW doesn't account for characters under 6k in GP. This prevents unnecessary punitive GP for simply having more 7* lvl 1 toons.

    Also, because TW is a guild format, you probably have a balance of collectors and competitors. So it's more balanced. One guild may have a slight advantage because they have more competitors, but this becomes an imbalance when it's 1v1 TW format.
  • Fun discussion. I think you're both pretty much on the same page now. Yes the disadvantage did exist before. But it was somewhat mitigated by the 6000gp limit on tw and the fact that you have a whole guild to pull you along if you had too much fluff. And some guilds are ok with that since the fluff helps in tb.

    And I also agree that ga made this disadvantage much more noticeable. But I don't see this as a bad thing or against the spirit of the game.

    The fact remains that they had to find something to match people on. GP is about as fair as anything. No matter what they choose there will be winners and losers and those that feel they are unfairly at a disadvantage. And those people will complain on the forums. It's a fact of life.

    I'd be ok with a 6k, 10k, or even 15k cutoff for toons to be counted and used but I'm sure that makes it harder for lower gp players to use much of their roster so I understand why they may not want to do that. Also there'd be complaints that x character was just nelow the threshhold but couldn't be used. And still complaints that the opponent had more 20k characters and that wasn't fair. So I don't really see that as helping all that much. I also don't think the fluff under 6k is all that significant. We all have some just some more than others. The fluff above 6k adds up a lot faster.

    Now finally, I've seen several arguements that this mode discourages you from leveling up toons and that's against the spirit of the game. I disagree. Other than the toons that are completely useless, many of the fluff issues can be fixed by simply gearing toons up more. You just have to do it smartly. Instead of taking 20 g8 characters to g9, take one team at a time to g12.

    And I don't think the mismatches are permanent. Even if you have a ton of fluff, you can start focusing today and get more and more competitive. I built 4 hstr teams in like 4 months. They aren't all g12 but good enough to be competitive. So it can ne done but it takes some time. But the good news is a lot of the fluff is probably good characters at around g8 so getting a few teams of those to g11 or g12 shouldn't be all that hard.
  • I have not had this issue. I do bring all my toons up to level 50 and gear them with low gear from time to time. (I have aimed for g7 for a while to unlock protection)

    My opponents have been around the same GP as me, yet they only have one or two teams that are really any good, which they tend to put on defense.

    Sure I may have had good luck with my placement in GA, but I haven't found the common complaint (of leveling up your toons instead of leaving them at a low level) to be an issue. It just means that the other players only have a few squads that are of any use, while I can afford to put 2-3 good squads on defense and still have some of my bigger guns on offense.
  • I have not had this issue. I do bring all my toons up to level 50 and gear them with low gear from time to time. (I have aimed for g7 for a while to unlock protection)

    My opponents have been around the same GP as me, yet they only have one or two teams that are really any good, which they tend to put on defense.

    Sure I may have had good luck with my placement in GA, but I haven't found the common complaint (of leveling up your toons instead of leaving them at a low level) to be an issue. It just means that the other players only have a few squads that are of any use, while I can afford to put 2-3 good squads on defense and still have some of my bigger guns on offense.

    Are you at a low enough gp where g7 is still used? I know a lot of the complaints are from higher gp players. At 3 mil gp g7 characters are pretty much useless. I am at 2.9 mil gp and have enough g11/g12 squads to fill most of the defense with good teams and still have enough left for offense.

    I have some characters leveled that are useless fluff but still have some at g1 so my fluff is probably below average and I've won every match easily enough so far.

    But I'd imagine at lower gp, having a bunch of g7 or g8 rather than 1 g12 team could be better but eventually you have to get those teams higher to stay competitive. But I wouldn't consider them fluff at that point.
  • TVF
    9411 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I have not had this issue. I do bring all my toons up to level 50 and gear them with low gear from time to time. (I have aimed for g7 for a while to unlock protection)

    My opponents have been around the same GP as me, yet they only have one or two teams that are really any good, which they tend to put on defense.

    Sure I may have had good luck with my placement in GA, but I haven't found the common complaint (of leveling up your toons instead of leaving them at a low level) to be an issue. It just means that the other players only have a few squads that are of any use, while I can afford to put 2-3 good squads on defense and still have some of my bigger guns on offense.

    Are you at a low enough gp where g7 is still used? I know a lot of the complaints are from higher gp players. At 3 mil gp g7 characters are pretty much useless. I am at 2.9 mil gp and have enough g11/g12 squads to fill most of the defense with good teams and still have enough left for offense.

    I have some characters leveled that are useless fluff but still have some at g1 so my fluff is probably below average and I've won every match easily enough so far.

    But I'd imagine at lower gp, having a bunch of g7 or g8 rather than 1 g12 team could be better but eventually you have to get those teams higher to stay competitive. But I wouldn't consider them fluff at that point.

    I'm at 3.1m now, have leveled a bunch of useless (to me) toons to 50, G6/7, and 3 ability levels, and have been either evenly matched or had the advantage in all my matchups.

    I do not believe the fluff is a relevant factor at a high GP, unless you're bringing everyone to 85, throwing on a bunch of purple mats, gearing real high, etc.
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.

    And I only discussed your false claim, that the disadvantage wasn't there previously. But ok, that might explain why you kept going.

    You're missing a key point that was made earlier, TW doesn't account for characters under 6k in GP.

    And you apparently missed the key point in my earlier response to this:

    Characters with higher GP than 6k may still be too weak to be used and hence result in the exact same disadvantage. I doubt that I would personaly use any character below 15k GP (give or take a few, and apart from 3P0 currently).

  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Also, because TW is a guild format, you probably have a balance of collectors and competitors. So it's more balanced. One guild may have a slight advantage because they have more competitors, but this becomes an imbalance when it's 1v1 TW format.

    Keyword: Probably.
    The two guilds may have the same amount of "fluff" GP or they may have a large difference in "non-fluff" GP. Disregarding wether it's balanced or not, each member's "fluff" GP may still effect the guild in a negative way. But as previously stated, each member won't feel it in the same way, as his/her own personal "fluff" is just a drop in the 50-member ocean.

  • Waqui wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Also, because TW is a guild format, you probably have a balance of collectors and competitors. So it's more balanced. One guild may have a slight advantage because they have more competitors, but this becomes an imbalance when it's 1v1 TW format.

    Keyword: Probably.
    The two guilds may have the same amount of "fluff" GP or they may have a large difference in "non-fluff" GP. Disregarding wether it's balanced or not, each member's "fluff" GP may still effect the guild in a negative way. But as previously stated, each member won't feel it in the same way, as his/her own personal "fluff" is just a drop in the 50-member ocean.

    right... so, you agree?

    I don't think people are trying to rewrite the GA rules, just narrow the imbalance. This is all hypothetical because the matchmaking variables have been kept under lock and key, but if they just applied the same "we don't account for characters under 6k in GP" you'd get a pretty happy crowd.

    I personally think GA is a great addition. I like the rewards, the structure, the changing formats. It's really cool. I just think they need to address the ability to game the system and prevent huge discrepancies between matchups. I don't want perfectly matched competition, but I also don't want to face an opponent that has zero chance of winning.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Also, because TW is a guild format, you probably have a balance of collectors and competitors. So it's more balanced. One guild may have a slight advantage because they have more competitors, but this becomes an imbalance when it's 1v1 TW format.

    Keyword: Probably.
    The two guilds may have the same amount of "fluff" GP or they may have a large difference in "non-fluff" GP. Disregarding wether it's balanced or not, each member's "fluff" GP may still effect the guild in a negative way. But as previously stated, each member won't feel it in the same way, as his/her own personal "fluff" is just a drop in the 50-member ocean.

    right... so, you agree?

    I don't think people are trying to rewrite the GA rules, just narrow the imbalance. This is all hypothetical because the matchmaking variables have been kept under lock and key, but if they just applied the same "we don't account for characters under 6k in GP" you'd get a pretty happy crowd.

    I personally think GA is a great addition. I like the rewards, the structure, the changing formats. It's really cool. I just think they need to address the ability to game the system and prevent huge discrepancies between matchups. I don't want perfectly matched competition, but I also don't want to face an opponent that has zero chance of winning.

    I'd be fine with the change you suggest. But it wouldn't make everyone happy. There'd be those griping that they don't have enough useable characters. In tw, you have your guild to fill in the gaps if you don't have enough to set defense or offense. So while it'd make matchmaking slightly better, it may create more issues at low gp.

    That could be the reason they didn't do that. Hard to tell without seeing the data.
  • BadunkAdunk
    24 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.

    And I only discussed your false claim, that the disadvantage wasn't there previously. But ok, that might explain why you kept going.

    Seriously. There. Was. No. False. Claim. You don’t want to give up on your need for there to have been one, and it’s making you seem obtuse.

    At no point did I claim there wasn’t a previous disadvantage; you made that up for the purposes of being right.

    Do you really need to be right that badly?
  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    Also, because TW is a guild format, you probably have a balance of collectors and competitors. So it's more balanced. One guild may have a slight advantage because they have more competitors, but this becomes an imbalance when it's 1v1 TW format.

    Keyword: Probably.
    The two guilds may have the same amount of "fluff" GP or they may have a large difference in "non-fluff" GP. Disregarding wether it's balanced or not, each member's "fluff" GP may still effect the guild in a negative way. But as previously stated, each member won't feel it in the same way, as his/her own personal "fluff" is just a drop in the 50-member ocean.

    right... so, you agree?

    Probably - but not necessarily ;-)

  • Waqui
    4851 posts Member
    Waqui wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »

    Worse or not is irrelevant to our discussion

    Worse or not is what I have been discussing this whole time. But it has been food for thought.

    And I only discussed your false claim, that the disadvantage wasn't there previously. But ok, that might explain why you kept going.

    Seriously. There. Was. No. False. Claim.

    Fluff GP always was a disadvantage in TW. It's not a new disadvantage, which didn't exist previously, as you claimed.

  • BadunkAdunk
    24 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Where once there was one disadvantage, now there are two. There are two distinct, separate disadvantages related to “fluff”. One of them is a new disadvantage.

    This is pretty rudimentary, so I still don’t see your point.
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