Grand Arena Megathread

Replies

  • Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.

    I just did the same thing, mk4 laptop on Tusken Shaman - 121 GP gain, mk12 multitool on Boba - 682 GP gain.

    Nearly 6 times seems the impact about right.



  • I would like to say, i still believe this is time consuming. Which is the part i am not fond of. However, i do like the 3v3 format... this is far more interesting and takes knowledge of your own toons to play... i am satisfied that 3 rounds is ample... going into the 1st ga, it looked as though we would have to fight all 7 opponents... instead you've set it up with a nice format...

    I still believe a revamping of pvp tournament would have been better... maybe one day you will bring it back??? so going forward, I'd ask that this be always 3v3... 5v5 i actually do find more tedious... the challenge of 3v3 is refreshing, ty cg
  • Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.

    I just did the same thing, mk4 laptop on Tusken Shaman - 121 GP gain, mk12 multitool on Boba - 682 GP gain.

    Nearly 6 times seems the impact about right.



    I tested a few g8 and a g10 piece. Didn't have any g12 ready. The g8 were 121 and 122 each and the g10 was 198. So looks like the redit chart isn't accurate. Otherwise the g8 would have added only 81.
  • Actually, matchmaking on GP gives very little incentive to improve your roster. If you improve, you face better competition, so not real benefit in that area. The arena shards actually do a good job in that reward.

    Yes but they already match based on time in the game for one mode. I think they wanted something different and to correct for money spent at least somewhat.

    And if you increase your gp smartly, you get more competitive. That is increasing gear on good characters not useless ones.
  • Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.

    I just did the same thing, mk4 laptop on Tusken Shaman - 121 GP gain, mk12 multitool on Boba - 682 GP gain.

    Nearly 6 times seems the impact about right.



    I tested a few g8 and a g10 piece. Didn't have any g12 ready. The g8 were 121 and 122 each and the g10 was 198. So looks like the redit chart isn't accurate. Otherwise the g8 would have added only 81.

    Reading further down that reddit thread there appears to be a “multiplier” that applies on top of the base increase.



  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?
  • Gannon wrote: »
    Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.

    I just did the same thing, mk4 laptop on Tusken Shaman - 121 GP gain, mk12 multitool on Boba - 682 GP gain.

    Nearly 6 times seems the impact about right.



    I tested a few g8 and a g10 piece. Didn't have any g12 ready. The g8 were 121 and 122 each and the g10 was 198. So looks like the redit chart isn't accurate. Otherwise the g8 would have added only 81.

    We need a new chart. Based on the chart I was starting to figure that it's an average 1/6 of the gp of the next tier up's gp. Maybe they used that as a general assumption?
    Either way, chart is off, and the game calculates pieces differently apparently.
    So what's wrong with that?

    Seems a g12 piece adding nearly 6 times the gp of a g8 piece is completely reasonable to me. Yes, they could revamp the whole system to yake stats more into account but it seems that the current system isn't as flawed as those using the redit post would lead you to believe.
  • Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    Kru has a ship so you get twice the GP boost for putting a piece on him (even though the gp to ship power relationship has always been busted). I'm unclear on why it would be 341 though anyway
  • I just checked, all the numbers seem to have been inflated at some point. Just got 121 for putting a g8 piece on someone.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Yeah.........................and where's the game situation where 2 g8s fight 1 g12? It's always full man teams. Maybe try to fight 2 full g8 teams to a g12 one that way and it would make sense. Not sure why you gave the low star example as it shows another glaring error of GP calculation which is stars are far more valued than other properties for GP considerations. In what world does a g11 4* equate to a g8 7* in gameplay?
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas
  • As far as their value, in higher level matches g8 and 9 characters are worth almost nothing and g10s have to be very specific characters to be useful. I don't know what the percentages are but assuming CG tracks data they could theoretically see how much increasing a specific character from g9 to g10 (or putting an omega on an ability) changes it's win rate against similar teams to come up with comparative values
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Sorry @Gannon but that’s garbage.

    Name me the 2 g8 toons you would use to beat a g12 CLS? Or Thrawn? Or GMY? Or Sion?

    2 g8 toons might be able to take out g12 pao or Acolyte (both of which I own) or FOO (who I nearly own) but there are several g12 toons they don’t stand a chance against, even from a standing start.

  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Make a youtube channel, I'd watch you smoke g12s with g8s for sure. Was your bast also g12? what characters did you fight against? Most g8 characters can't land status effects due to the potency/tenacity disparity or do nearly enough damage to stop g12s.

    Side note - none of this addresses how arbitrary GP and matchmaking are. Even if you think two g8s are better than a max g12 I'd like to see CG say that they've thought about it, hopefully even crunched some numbers, and agree with you. However, CG knows their values are arbitrary.
  • TVF
    25916 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Sorry @Gannon but that’s garbage.

    Name me the 2 g8 toons you would use to beat a g12 CLS? Or Thrawn? Or GMY? Or Sion?

    2 g8 toons might be able to take out g12 pao or Acolyte (both of which I own) or FOO (who I nearly own) but there are several g12 toons they don’t stand a chance against, even from a standing start.

    I have a G12 Pao and I hate him so much lol. Taking him to G12 just so Chewie would guard Greedo instead was soul crushing.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Yeah.........................and where's the game situation where 2 g8s fight 1 g12? It's always full man teams. Maybe try to fight 2 full g8 teams to a g12 one that way and it would make sense. Not sure why you gave the low star example as it shows another glaring error of GP calculation which is stars are far more valued than other properties for GP considerations. In what world does a g11 4* equate to a g8 7* in gameplay?

    As far as the first point, it was the assertion that a g12 is only slightly less gp as two g8s.
    As to the second, the stats of a g11 4* and a g8 7* are nearly identical, as far as the ones I currently have. That's what I said. Health, etc are increased per star level in a similar way as with gear.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Yeah.........................and where's the game situation where 2 g8s fight 1 g12? It's always full man teams. Maybe try to fight 2 full g8 teams to a g12 one that way and it would make sense. Not sure why you gave the low star example as it shows another glaring error of GP calculation which is stars are far more valued than other properties for GP considerations. In what world does a g11 4* equate to a g8 7* in gameplay?

    As far as the first point, it was the assertion that a g12 is only slightly less gp as two g8s.
    As to the second, the stats of a g11 4* and a g8 7* are nearly identical, as far as the ones I currently have. That's what I said. Health, etc are increased per star level in a similar way as with gear.

    The point is that most g11 4* (or even 3*) toons are vastly more useful than g8 7* toons.

    I finish 1 or 2 in Squad Arena every day (that I have time to fight) and my 3* Badstila is regularly part of what gets me there. There is no way g8 anybody would do the same job - 7* or not.

  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    A gear 8 raid han and a g8 chewie could give a g12 gmy a run for his money two on one. Han shoots twice and chewie assists. So yoda is half dead or more to start.

    Obviously in most situations yoda has a team around him but this could be useful for cleaning up a stray toon.

    But not all squads are full g12 or the meta toons you listed so there are uses of lower gear toons. Support toons especially don't have to be high gear to be useful. For example a g8 or g9 traya can do a lot of dmg to a lot of full g12 teams when surrounded by a proper team. Since she's more squishy you may need a double tank team to protect her but it can work. Same with ep if he's protected and the opposing team has no anti stun mechanics in their kit. So it really depends on the kit and how you use it.
  • At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    Yeah.........................and where's the game situation where 2 g8s fight 1 g12? It's always full man teams. Maybe try to fight 2 full g8 teams to a g12 one that way and it would make sense. Not sure why you gave the low star example as it shows another glaring error of GP calculation which is stars are far more valued than other properties for GP considerations. In what world does a g11 4* equate to a g8 7* in gameplay?

    As far as the first point, it was the assertion that a g12 is only slightly less gp as two g8s.
    As to the second, the stats of a g11 4* and a g8 7* are nearly identical, as far as the ones I currently have. That's what I said. Health, etc are increased per star level in a similar way as with gear.

    The point is that most g11 4* (or even 3*) toons are vastly more useful than g8 7* toons.

    I finish 1 or 2 in Squad Arena every day (that I have time to fight) and my 3* Badstila is regularly part of what gets me there. There is no way g8 anybody would do the same job - 7* or not.

    Compare your bastilla's stats to of your g8 toons. The g8 will likely have better stats, cuz stars increase the general stats as much as gear does. Get her to 7* and you'll see a insane difference
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    It doesn't really balance out. Yeah we discussed it and should discuss it further it seems as much of the community is still not aware what drives the GP wedge. The system needs to be impartial and a fair assesment of these values. When we look at it in bulk it becomes obvious that my g8 characters doesn't provide half the usage value of a fully maxed g12 toon. And no, we aren't battling it out as imaginary 1 vs 1 matches, that sheds no light to what's at hand.

    Anyway, I just won a GA due to this. I was quite outmatched by the way, especially in terms of our mods. 260 10+ speeds to my 110 10+s. I'm not arguing this should also be considered for matchmaking, just putting that out.

    My opponent has already beaten a Revan player who also has beaten both of his other 2 opponents. He was a competetive with unconventional teams. It's good to note during these 2 tourneys majority of my matches settled on banner counts where both sides cleans the fields, I guess that's a norm for this GP.

    n8lsj9asye7b.png

    I am aware this goes to primarily show how uneven the toons are created, but it also shows no amount of g8s could have beaten it, rest of his left roster which probably worth somewhere along 1M-2M gp is rendered useless for any practical purpose.

    By my esmitation a G8 (otherwise maxed) toon should have the %20 GP worth of a fully maxed g12 one. Currently it's close to %50 or even higher (12k to 22k on average) What's your estimation? Do you find the current values a fair assessment of their gameplay worth?

    I'll take that bait 😂
    I think g8 is roughly a lil more than half of the gp of a g12, usually. This makes perfect seems to me. If you stick one g12 against two g8s, the g8s would have slightly better gp and should win. Depends on the toons of course, but I could take any single g12 with two of my g8s.
    Point was that toons stats all go up with each star level, and also with each gear lvl. It's separate. A g8 7* toon with have nearly the same stats as a g11 4* toon. It's all in the gp calculation, but is clearly visible in the stats of the character.

    I don't know what characters you have at g8 but taking on a g12 Nest, Revan, Traya, Sion, GMYoda, KRU, Zylo, Bossk, Zaalbar, CLS etc with two g8s seems... unlikely.

    If it's 2 on 1, as they're half the gp of a g12, then yes I could do it. Basically make the best use their kit.
    I used a g8 gk under bast lead this GA, due to the extra survivability. Won against full g12.5+ with all zetas

    Again goes to show primarily how toons are not created equal or even close to it rather than the fairness of gp calculation just like my example.

    I don't think you could come up with a way to calculate gp that would account for all the nuances of a characters kit. Certainly not one that would solve all this match up is unfair complaints. And the more complicated it gets the more open to errors it becomes. It works ok as is.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?
  • Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Lol my thrawn, gk, and a ton of other "meta"toons, including traya, actually are g8. I use them all the time
    😆
  • Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Nope my raid han and chewie are g12 with pieces but since the only g12 toons listed to be taken out were good toons, I thought it was only fair to use good toons too.

    And wiggs could give gmy a tough run two on one. And mine aren't geared up a lot. Though to be honest, they work best with at least a third. With a strong g12 tank to protect them , they could do well against a g12 team assuming the team can't dispel the tank easily and doesn't have a lot of health or protection regeneration.

    The point is you can make g8, g9, g10, and g11 characters work against g12 in the right teams with a bit of effort.

    Why is that the point? Even assuming you are correct and can do brilliant stuff with your g8s, if your game plan involves running a 3-man g8 wiggs team against an opponent's 3-man g12 defense you got placed in a garbage match. It's CG's responsibility to make it so people like Gannon with lots of meta chars at g8 aren't playing against people who have them at g12.

    Just for the fun of it, what kind of a matchmaking system would you consider broken? If gear level is basically irrelevant because of strategy then why not match up people purely based on player level? That'd certainly motivate people to invest and gear more.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    At g8 you could use secura (modded for potency) and Ezra (modded for speed) to kill most any g12 😂
    stuns, isolate, Thrawn can lock down any g12 while an attacker wails on em.
    You could go the insane tank route also, use zombie, srp, mission and z.. Nest.

    I should totally make a channel and just play with that.
    Ezra, Thrawn, Zombie, Nest, CLS, Chewy that DarkHelmet mentioned...

    Are these really toons serious players have at g8? Which of your g8 toons would you use?

    Lol my thrawn, gk, and a ton of other "meta"toons, including traya, actually are g8. I use them all the time
    😆

    Just looked at your roster. It is weird! Your Thrawn is g7?!

  • TVF
    25916 posts Member
    We found the actual sandbagger lol.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
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