Grand Arena Megathread

Replies

  • TVF
    25593 posts Member
    I still haven't heard why I took every single toon to min level 50, G6/G7, and level 3 abilities, and yet I've had favorable matchups (or at worst even matchups) in all my rounds, and yet somehow matchmaking is broken.

    Why is that?

    Guess I'm the luckiest person in the world.

    I also got 7* Chewbacca first time round. Weird.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    TVF wrote: »
    I still haven't heard why I took every single toon to min level 50, G6/G7, and level 3 abilities, and yet I've had favorable matchups (or at worst even matchups) in all my rounds, and yet somehow matchmaking is broken.

    Why is that?

    Guess I'm the luckiest person in the world.

    I also got 7* Chewbacca first time round. Weird.

    I got 2 serious mismatches, why is that?

    I won one of them despite that, the other one is the only one I lost in GA. But that's besides the point.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    @Gannon see level 86-90 is already in there. That's why I think they are using exponentials. You can even calculate level 27.7947935679s value if it were to exist this way. The table is rounded numbers btw.

    6m28ttnxa03v.png
  • TVF
    25593 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    I still haven't heard why I took every single toon to min level 50, G6/G7, and level 3 abilities, and yet I've had favorable matchups (or at worst even matchups) in all my rounds, and yet somehow matchmaking is broken.

    Why is that?

    Guess I'm the luckiest person in the world.

    I also got 7* Chewbacca first time round. Weird.

    I got 2 serious mismatches, why is that?

    I won one of them despite that, the other one is the only one I lost in GA. But that's besides the point.

    Is it?
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Gannon
    1501 posts Member
    I would assume that parts of that formula of gp from where you got that chat are additive like ability levels, and other parts like the toons level, gear, and star count, are multiplicative. That's the only way I can see the gp system working properly.
    You can see in toons stats a noticeable difference when you upgrade a star level and separate boosts when you add gear (targets specific stats based on part).
    I'm not sure if levels affect stats.

    But it seems like gp only increases As the stats increase, and the amount of added gp seems to correspond for most upgrades I've seen.

    I'm also not positive about how pilots are factored. My pilots are all mostly low level, and their toon gp isn't any different from other toons are similar points. Is it counted separately in ship gp, or are my pilots not good enough yet?
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Gannon wrote: »



    I would assume that parts of that formula of gp from where you got that chat are additive like ability levels, and other parts like the toons level, gear, and star count, are multiplicative. That's the only way I can see the gp system working properly.
    You can see in toons stats a noticeable difference when you upgrade a star level and separate boosts when you add gear (targets specific stats based on part).
    I'm not sure if levels affect stats.

    But it seems like gp only increases As the stars increase, and the amount of added gp seems to correspond for most upgrades I've seen.

    I'm also not positive about how pilots are factored. My pilots are all mostly low level, and their toon gp isn't any different from other toons are similar points. Is it counted desperately in ship gp, or are my pilots not good enough yet

    Pilot GP is termed into ship GP as well. Star level bumps may be consistent but not when stars are compared to other properties. Too drained right now to illustrate that. You'll see that total contribution stars is comparable to total contribution of gear. What gear brings in is significantly higher though. We can see that with a 1* toon at g11 vs. 7* toon at g1.

    You are right, it's just a multiplication or addition, don't remember why I thought it was an exponential.

    Not sure completely. This data is out there. CG doesn't need to explain anything since it's displayed.

    pm: we broke the forums by chain quoting, it gave me this: "Body is 8 characters too long."
  • Gannon
    1501 posts Member
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »



    I would assume that parts of that formula of gp from where you got that chat are additive like ability levels, and other parts like the toons level, gear, and star count, are multiplicative. That's the only way I can see the gp system working properly.
    You can see in toons stats a noticeable difference when you upgrade a star level and separate boosts when you add gear (targets specific stats based on part).
    I'm not sure if levels affect stats.

    But it seems like gp only increases As the stars increase, and the amount of added gp seems to correspond for most upgrades I've seen.

    I'm also not positive about how pilots are factored. My pilots are all mostly low level, and their toon gp isn't any different from other toons are similar points. Is it counted desperately in ship gp, or are my pilots not good enough yet

    Pilot GP is termed into ship GP as well. Star level bumps may be consistent but not when stars are compared to other properties. Too drained right now to illustrate that. You'll see that total contribution stars is comparable to total contribution of gear. What gear brings in is significantly higher though. We can see that with a 1* toon at g11 vs. 7* toon at g1.

    Not sure completely. This data is out there. CG doesn't need to explain anything since it's displayed.

    pm: we broke the forums by chain quoting, it gave me this: "Body is 8 characters too long."

    Yea same, I tried an edit and broke it and had to post without quotes. But anyway, yes the info we have is missing something. I mean, as I said before, you can achieve the same gp and stats using gear or stars, if one is higher than the other, but I'm not positive on how changed with both yet. Guess I'll math it out tomorrow.
    But from upgrades over the past day or two I can follow the gp progress as far as toons as concerned, and it seems to be working ok.
    But we'll figure it out together
  • So, I gotta be fair and report back.

    I managed to beat the matchup I was complaining about a few days ago.

    1bc6v85uw1gc.jpg

    I got lucky. The opponent got stuck on kru, bossk and nest teams early on meaning I knew I could afford to focus down one flank for a win.

    My next battle was a bigger g12 / g11 + g12 discrepancy.

    8anqn3f70zf5.jpg

    Now its not the revan, or the traya, or speed mods that are the problem. I beat both their revan and traya teams in that last match up. Its the fact that no matter how I defend or attack I eventually just simply run out of anything strong enough to do any further damage or try to hold on defence.

    This is why.

    We're being matched on total GP when only the top fraction of players total GP actually matters for the grand arena. The GP difference between my top 60 characters and the top 60 characters of the last opponent I recently faced was 1.02mil GP vs 1.54mil GP.

    That is what makes the match uneven, its that vast gulf in the GP that we can actually utilise in any way shape or form in the grand arena.

    This is not about who prioritised what in gearing and farming. I could NEVER have taken the same choices as this opponent in gearing those numbers of G12.

    Yes, this is my choice as a long time player staying with my guild where I've made friends and not abandoning it for sith raid riches sooner. Yes, I could have decided to not take some of my other toons to G7 or L85, but I levelled them months and years ago for territory battles for my guild, waaayyy before anything like this was ever mooted. I accept I don't have traya yet, that I don't have as much G12, but I still enjoy playing the game, with friends. Thus far CG has never said I've been playing the game wrong. I can still crack top 20 in arena, precisely because I am focused with my roster development.

    Now grand arena comes along and is meant to pitch players of similar levels against each other. Great. Except it doesn't.

    If we are serious about generating an exciting, balanced and even match up system, either there needs to be more nodes to allow both players to utilise the full depth of their total GP or, if we have limited node numbers that generates a game mode where the top fraction of toons matter then to create exciting, balanced and fair match ups we need to be matched on the basis of those top 60, 70, 100, etc, that matter.
  • Kriesha
    113 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    My thought after 2 (I dont think the 1 round things really count):
    1. Too long. Maybe people like setting different defenses or missed setting in the first place, but I personally would leave out the second and third set defense phase and just run with the initially set defense squads... This would cut the total time by 48 hours which would be pretty cool in my book.
    2. GP based matchmaking. Imho, GP calculation is a bad indicator of character strength. I would like to see some effort put into a better and more accurate method of determining matchups.
    3. Tie procedure. As long as we are using GP to calculate strength, it does not make sense that the higher GP person wins ties. I mean, should it not be the lower GP one, as they had a harder fight, presumably?
    4. No ship node in 3v3. Since we have to put up with them anyway, they should have been included. Maybe without reinforcements, to make it true 3v3.

    Just my 2c.
  • TVF
    25593 posts Member
    Sorry you don't like waiting 24 hours to attack but I want to be able to determine my defense/offense each round based on my opponent's roster. No thanks.
    The CGDF is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »



    I would assume that parts of that formula of gp from where you got that chat are additive like ability levels, and other parts like the toons level, gear, and star count, are multiplicative. That's the only way I can see the gp system working properly.
    You can see in toons stats a noticeable difference when you upgrade a star level and separate boosts when you add gear (targets specific stats based on part).
    I'm not sure if levels affect stats.

    But it seems like gp only increases As the stars increase, and the amount of added gp seems to correspond for most upgrades I've seen.

    I'm also not positive about how pilots are factored. My pilots are all mostly low level, and their toon gp isn't any different from other toons are similar points. Is it counted desperately in ship gp, or are my pilots not good enough yet

    Pilot GP is termed into ship GP as well. Star level bumps may be consistent but not when stars are compared to other properties. Too drained right now to illustrate that. You'll see that total contribution stars is comparable to total contribution of gear. What gear brings in is significantly higher though. We can see that with a 1* toon at g11 vs. 7* toon at g1.

    You are right, it's just a multiplication or addition, don't remember why I thought it was an exponential.

    Not sure completely. This data is out there. CG doesn't need to explain anything since it's displayed.

    pm: we broke the forums by chain quoting, it gave me this: "Body is 8 characters too long."

    Ok I'm not replying to all those posts. I went to bed and it grew by a page. But I'll put my position as I see it.

    So as far as I see the GP calculation. GP added for gear increases as the gear level increases. We determined that g12 adds about 6 times the amount as gear 8 and gear 12 characters have about twice the gp as gear 8 characters.

    You think it should be more weighted to gear and be something like 3 times. I get that and you are entitled to your opinion. I think the current weighting for gear is fair enough as is. Difference of opinion. So no point arguing that.

    The point I was trying to make is that, yes, they could spend a lot of time and effort revamping the gp or the matchmaking but the added benefit of that likely won't be worth the opportunity cost of more content or qol updates. They only have so much time after all.

    I don't think matchmaking is broken. Sure there will be some mismatches. That is bound to happen when every stat is grouped into a number and that number is used for matching. It is based on the millions of different ways that can potentially get the same number. But I think those instances are the exception rather than the rule.

    I would say that 95% of players get matched just fine because they have a similar mix between good characters and fluff. Or a close enough ine that the match is at least somewhat competitive. Then there are the extreme cases where a player has a ton of fluff and the opponent has almost none. It is possible that these get matched but since these two extremes are a small fraction of the player base and the odds of those two being matched are pretty low.

    Now with weighting gear more, that would probably reduce the gear discrepancies but it would likely increase the star discrepancies, the zeta discrepancies, the mod discrepancies, ect. But you get the idea.

    It wouldn't stop complaining about matchmaking is my point. It would just shift it to those that have a lot of gear 12 but neglected zetas or mods.

    Also I don't believe perfect matchmaking is desirable. You could make the algorithm consider a number of factors easily enough. GP, number of g12 within 5, number of zetas, number of +15 speed mods, ect. But if you only consider some factors, others still complain about why the one they didn't choose should be included and if you include too many, you have too few similar enough rosters to actually guarantee a match each time. Also matching you against a roster exactly like yours leaves no incentive for improvement. You'll have the same chance of winning no matter what you do to your roster. The current system encourages those with fewer maced out teams to max out their toons to become more competitive.

    So basically CG has a choice. They can spend the next year trying to tweak the GP/matchmaking algorithm only to still have complaints about it. Or they can leave it alone and spend that time and effort on other projects. I prefer the 2nd choice.
  • ArthurDent
    20 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I can be convinced that GP alone is the ideal criteria, but still think some refinement is needed:

    1. In the GA we just finished, all three of my opponents had 100-120k more character GP than I had. There was no ship territory, so matchmaking on total GP was a bad deal for me. I still won one round and possibly could've won a second if it weren't Christmas and/or I didn't have a family. People say 100k is only 5 G12, which is only one team, but more likely it's 20 characters going from G10 to G12, which makes a big difference.

    2. Ship GP is overvalued, which means small fluctuations in actual ship utility will have an outsized effect on matchmaking. As an example, my Tie Advanced is worth 60k when Vader himself is below 25k. Giving Vader a G12+ piece benefits the toon a lot and the ship very little, but the existence of the ship means that GP is triple-counted (once for Vader, twice for Tie Adv).

    3. If an algorithm decided who to match me against using GP, then using GP as a tiebreaker is nonsensical. Least important point, probably rare and not a problem I've faced, but it could've just as easily matched me with somebody 2 points lower vs 2 points higher. If GP is a trustworthy metric of strength then lower GP should win as a reward for efficiency/tactics, but even that sounds like a bad idea.
  • ArthurDent wrote: »
    I can be convinced that GP alone is the ideal criteria, but still think some refinement is needed:

    1. In the GA we just finished, all three of my opponents had 100-120k more character GP than I had. There was no ship territory, so matchmaking on total GP was a bad deal for me. I still won one round and possibly could've won a second if it weren't Christmas and/or I didn't have a family. People say 100k is only 5 G12, which is only one team, but more likely it's 20 characters going from G10 to G12, which makes a big difference.

    2. Ship GP is overvalued, which means small fluctuations in actual ship utility will have an outsized effect on matchmaking. As an example, my Tie Advanced is worth 60k when Vader himself is below 25k. Giving Vader a G12+ piece benefits the toon a lot and the ship very little, but the existence of the ship means that GP is triple-counted (once for Vader, twice for Tie Adv).

    3. If an algorithm decided who to match me against using GP, then using GP as a tiebreaker is nonsensical. Least important point, probably rare and not a problem I've faced, but it could've just as easily matched me with somebody 2 points lower vs 2 points higher. If GP is a trustworthy metric of strength then lower GP should win as a reward for efficiency/tactics, but even that sounds like a bad idea.

    1. 100k difference could be 20 useless g7 characters as well. So it really depends on your individual rosters. In any event, unless you are a really low gp, it is likely 5% or less of your total gp, so not a huge concern.

    2. The best solution would be to include ships more in the future in ga. If ships are included then counting them more is irrelevant since it affects both sides fairly equally. Even so, it appears the mismatchs caused by total gp rather than ship gp are +/- 5% or so of character gp so not a huge issue since with proper strategy a 5% difference in gp can be easily overcome.

    3. They had to have something to break ties. And people will complain no matter what they choose. But with banner counts ties will be rare. And I guess the gp rewards the one that upgraded their roster more.
  • One question i thought of with this new round was a different kind of sandbagging...so if I'm not motivated by these rewards, what if i still register and lose all my matches, then theoretically my ranking will go lower (based on win loss record), so then that sets me up to have weaker opponents when the rewards do motivate such as stun guns/cuffs/eyeballs.
  • One question i thought of with this new round was a different kind of sandbagging...so if I'm not motivated by these rewards, what if i still register and lose all my matches, then theoretically my ranking will go lower (based on win loss record), so then that sets me up to have weaker opponents when the rewards do motivate such as stun guns/cuffs/eyeballs.

    There's been no indication of match records being saved to prevent players ever facing each other again. Intentionally losing wouldn't produce the result you're after
  • @CG_SBCrumb are you guys trying to ruin this game. More work for terrible rewards? These new rewards for the upcoming ga are a joke. More work for less po...just give us tw back and leave it alone if you guys r gonna just ruin it
  • Monel
    2373 posts Member
    I am indifferent. I dont care if there was ever another GA match again, but also wouldnt care if there was. GA is kind of like Squad Arena to me. I do it because it is in game and it provides rewards. I dont really care if you have a better team or if I have a better team. I am not playing you, so to me it's not pvp anyway.

    I know it's not possible because of the fact this game is more or less world wide, but in order to gain more interest from me it needs to move at a faster pace. I know the setup and attack phases are the same length as TW but in TW you are communicating with your guild. So even if I have set all my teams for defense I can still work with my guild to place the right teams in the right places. GA is just a hurry up and wait or wait and hurry up event.

    Like I said, not really complaining but also not supporting.
  • I like GA, it challenges your roster in a way you wouldn't imagine, and gets you know some underrated characters better. But the rewards for upcoming GA are seriously bad.. i know that the winning should support players on all stages of account development and that's what the GP brackets are for but being in the top bracket and getting this many useless items (meaning I have stockpikes of them) is really discouraging..
  • FYI..
    A new Grand Arena event has popped up...you have about 21 hours to sign up.
    PS 1st place gets 3 omegas plus other stuff.
  • I'm having a hard time planning ahead. When I check my opponent's inventory, I see what they currently have, not what they had when player lock happened.

    Example: My current opponent has a g12 Bossk with 2 zetas, but I faced a g12 Bossk with no zetas.

    Is there a fix for this?

    Doubt there will be a fix for this. U just gotta fly in blind.

    Mostly tho, u will just be happy tht they are less upgraded than what u thought they were.
  • I love the grand arena and hope they keep the 3v3. Not only is it like a new fun game but at my low GP it was hard enough to have enough defense squads and the attack squads...with 5v5 it would be nearly impossible.
    I have been very positive so far about this new format. But now I do have a bit of a not so happy situation.
    In the Grand Arena that just happened, I won ever match with nearly perfect flag counts, even though I was an underdog in every one. I was using a pretty cool strategy on defense. I won every battle the first try and always had between 53.(or 54?) to 51 flags from each one. I battled for 1st place against a much stronger opponent with triple the amount of zetas. Although I lost I felt I did quite good...I only lost by 1 flag. But then...I found out that I had been pushed down to 4th place...4th place??! I was battling for 1st, why wasn't I 2nd. This doesn't make sense to me. Is this normal?
  • I love the grand arena and hope they keep the 3v3. Not only is it like a new fun game but at my low GP it was hard enough to have enough defense squads and the attack squads...with 5v5 it would be nearly impossible.
    I have been very positive so far about this new format. But now I do have a bit of a not so happy situation.
    In the Grand Arena that just happened, I won ever match with nearly perfect flag counts, even though I was an underdog in every one. I was using a pretty cool strategy on defense. I won every battle the first try and always had between 53.(or 54?) to 51 flags from each one. I battled for 1st place against a much stronger opponent with triple the amount of zetas. Although I lost I felt I did quite good...I only lost by 1 flag. But then...I found out that I had been pushed down to 4th place...4th place??! I was battling for 1st, why wasn't I 2nd. This doesn't make sense to me. Is this normal?

    It's the same rewards so it doesn't matter. You've really come equal second. They put 2nd - 4th in order with who had the highest gp.
  • Ultra
    6640 posts Member
    In the Grand Arena that just happened, I won ever match with nearly perfect flag counts, even though I was an underdog in every one. I was using a pretty cool strategy on defense. I won every battle the first try and always had between 53.(or 54?) to 51 flags from each one. I battled for 1st place against a much stronger opponent with triple the amount of zetas. Although I lost I felt I did quite good...I only lost by 1 flag. But then...I found out that I had been pushed down to 4th place...4th place??! I was battling for 1st, why wasn't I 2nd. This doesn't make sense to me. Is this normal?
    Saw this posted on reddit where Crumb said he would try to get this sort of change visible in game

    vrmo59ybt2521.jpg

    Hope this helps
  • GA 3v3 was the worst game experience as a 4M GP players.
  • Princerhaegar4
    35 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    I've won all my GA so far that said, the rewards are lacking. This is a week long event. It takes time, planning etc. the prizes awarded don't equate to the time/effort one puts into GA. The next rewards are a step down to the previous rewards for GA. It feels like someone is cheapening GA and it was just released. crystals can be added to the 1st place slot, this would make it really competitive. This is a suggestion and by no means am I telling you what to do, but yeah it would make for awesome fierce competition if crystals were added.
  • ddlooping2
    1001 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Hey peeps :)

    Sorry if these questions have been answered before, it's a very long thread and search hasn't been much help.

    1) new GA : if I don't set Defense teams, will the ones I set during the previous GA be used?
    2) if yes, will the way the characters were modded also be applied or do I have to remod them?
  • 3 omegas, can't even upgrade a single ability with that
    LUL


    Might just set chars like GG and CUP on defense in the first round, do my Traya/CLS/GK quest battles and see who I get matched with in the 2nd and 3rd round. Won't waste my time for these garbage rewards.
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
  • Legend91 wrote: »
    3 omegas, can't even upgrade a single ability with that
    LUL

    You can upgrade a leader ability with 3 omegas.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    ddlooping2 wrote: »
    Hey peeps :)

    Sorry if these questions have been answered before, it's a very long thread and search hasn't been much help.

    1) new GA : if I don't set Defense teams, will the ones I set during the previous GA be used?
    2) if yes, will the way the characters were modded also be applied or do I have to remod them?

    No, it only carries over defense between rounds of the same event.
  • Legend91 wrote: »
    3 omegas, can't even upgrade a single ability with that
    LUL

    You can upgrade a leader ability with 3 omegas.

    Talking bout the usual 5 omega price for basics, specials and uniques.
    There are some leader uniques that cost 3 indeed but they are becoming more rare since everything needs to be a zeta ability.
    Legend#6873 | YouTube | swgoh.gg
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