Grand Arena MM isn't the problem, the Galactic Power calculation is...

Replies

  • Equal opportunities will there be when zeta/fleet omega materials will not be 1 in 3 weeks from challenge but it will be 1 or 2 or 4 which happen only 1 time in 3 years.
  • Tanzos wrote: »
    I'm confused... is GA supposed to the ultimate test of resource management or ultimate test of skill? Seems like in the announcement it's supposed to be the ultimate test in skill.

    What makes you think resource management isn't a skill?
  • It's absolutely inarguable that GP needs to be tweaked as it is being used in current competitive matchmaking. More weight needs to be given to the higher levels of gear, mats and mods. Less weight needs to be on character level and stars. Ships need to have their power brought in line with single toons so that they are not contributing more than their worth.

  • DuneSeaFarmer
    3525 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    misread not relevant
  • If you really want to argue - as some in this thread seem to want to - that Galactic Power is a measure of "investment" then you are deliberately missing the meaning of the words in the name.
    It's called POWER. It's not called "Galactic Investment".
    We don't look at sports stars and say "well this attacking player cost £3 million and has scored twice all season; this other attacking player cost £1 million and has scored ninety times this season; therefore the first one is better because that one took more investment".
  • Stenun wrote: »
    If you really want to argue - as some in this thread seem to want to - that Galactic Power is a measure of "investment" then you are deliberately missing the meaning of the words in the name.
    It's called POWER. It's not called "Galactic Investment".
    We don't look at sports stars and say "well this attacking player cost £3 million and has scored twice all season; this other attacking player cost £1 million and has scored ninety times this season; therefore the first one is better because that one took more investment".

    Not really, and that's people's problem. They want Galactic POWER to be a measure of effectiveness (such as the statistics of your attacker there). In actuality, GP is really the character salary - it's the only current reflection of what you had to spend to get that toon on your roster if you want to continue the analogy.

    If you overpaid (starred and geared) a bad player (your attacker with two scores), that just makes you a bad General Manager.
  • Stenun
    851 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Stenun wrote: »
    If you really want to argue - as some in this thread seem to want to - that Galactic Power is a measure of "investment" then you are deliberately missing the meaning of the words in the name.
    It's called POWER. It's not called "Galactic Investment".
    We don't look at sports stars and say "well this attacking player cost £3 million and has scored twice all season; this other attacking player cost £1 million and has scored ninety times this season; therefore the first one is better because that one took more investment".

    Not really, and that's people's problem. They want Galactic POWER to be a measure of effectiveness (such as the statistics of your attacker there). In actuality, GP is really the character salary - it's the only current reflection of what you had to spend to get that toon on your roster if you want to continue the analogy.

    If you overpaid (starred and geared) a bad player (your attacker with two scores), that just makes you a bad General Manager.

    By extending the metaphor to salary, you've taken us to the point where you should be able to choose to stop paying people so much or even fire them.
    But we can't do that in this game.
    If GP is "character salary", let us "fire" characters. If it's an indication of a characters power in terms of effectiveness, it needs to not be so rigid.
    You can't have it both ways.

    Edit: Also, a lot of us "invested" in characters when there was no down side for doing so. But now there is. So no, it doesn't make people a "bad General Manager" because there was no real reason not to do so. If you were all conquering in Arena back in the day with your Baze/Chirrut Rebel team, why not invest some in Kit Fisto for some fun? But now suddenly, it hurts you when it never did before.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    If you really want to argue - as some in this thread seem to want to - that Galactic Power is a measure of "investment" then you are deliberately missing the meaning of the words in the name.
    It's called POWER. It's not called "Galactic Investment".
    We don't look at sports stars and say "well this attacking player cost £3 million and has scored twice all season; this other attacking player cost £1 million and has scored ninety times this season; therefore the first one is better because that one took more investment".

    The point people are making is that "Galactic Investment" is the best that can be done because truly measuring the power of your roster is the next thing to impossible.
  • Stenun wrote: »
    If you really want to argue - as some in this thread seem to want to - that Galactic Power is a measure of "investment" then you are deliberately missing the meaning of the words in the name.
    It's called POWER. It's not called "Galactic Investment".
    We don't look at sports stars and say "well this attacking player cost £3 million and has scored twice all season; this other attacking player cost £1 million and has scored ninety times this season; therefore the first one is better because that one took more investment".

    IIRC, power in SWGOH is a misnomer, it's not an accurate term. The devs even stated a while back it is more of a placeholder then an actual amount. A Hero having a higher power rating, is not necessarily stronger. It was just the most recognizable to players coming from other game genres if I recall correctly (and that varies from day to day lol). I had a heck of a time looking at the blue TM bar thinking it was power or mana. Which of course it isn't. What I wouldn't give for a worldwide consortium deciding what color is what, what term is used only for.. But it will not happen..
  • @Stenun
    The moral of the story is that the people that complain about GP as a basis for matchmaking are people that have focused on breadth and not depth and now feel that they are unfairly matched using GP as a basis for evaluation. If you have made choices to build breadth over depth in your roster then you *may* be at a disadvantage in this game mode compared to players with more focused rosters. As I pointed out in a prior post, rosters of various size can absorb various amounts of "fluff" without being impacted. To me, it's a bit of a hollow argument. You don't use all of your GP anyway, so some portion of it doesn't matter.

    From the standpoint of using Galactic Power as a metric, there is no other metric to use as a basis without the algorithm starting to pick winners and losers. One can theorize all sorts of different matchmaking criteria to make things "fair", but each set of criteria brings with it its own bias. Furthermore, where does it stop? Match on G12s, but what about which G12s - "I have bugs at G12 and they're completely useless now, why are they included, exclude them to make it fair", etc. etc.

    The more blind the algorithm is to the composition of each roster, the less bias there is in matchmaking.

    And none of this touches on the actual question, which is "why should 'weak' rosters get matched up against 'weak' rosters?" Is it so people can enjoy the game mode more by not getting beaten? That would be fine if the "weak roster" division had worse rewards than the "lean roster" division, otherwise you're penalizing the more targeted rosters that are losing against harder competition.

    Maybe instead of people complaining about the fairness of match making, they should learn from the players that are beating them. I'm most likely about to lose my second GA tomorrow. The takeaway for me is "you have some work to do on your mod game." My roster is pretty lean. I haven't lost a squad yet this GA, but my opponent in the final put all the right mods on all the right toons and has more 6e mods than I do. I could complain that matchmaking isn't fair because it didn't take the mod disparity into account...or I could just work on that part of my roster for the next GA. Or, I could allocate my resources somewhere else that I think is important and accept that I might not win every GA if I get matched up against someone with better mods.
  • @Stenun
    The moral of the story is that the people that complain about GP as a basis for matchmaking are people that have focused on breadth and not depth and now feel that they are unfairly matched using GP as a basis for evaluation. If you have made choices to build breadth over depth in your roster then you *may* be at a disadvantage in this game mode compared to players with more focused rosters. As I pointed out in a prior post, rosters of various size can absorb various amounts of "fluff" without being impacted. To me, it's a bit of a hollow argument. You don't use all of your GP anyway, so some portion of it doesn't matter.

    From the standpoint of using Galactic Power as a metric, there is no other metric to use as a basis without the algorithm starting to pick winners and losers. One can theorize all sorts of different matchmaking criteria to make things "fair", but each set of criteria brings with it its own bias. Furthermore, where does it stop? Match on G12s, but what about which G12s - "I have bugs at G12 and they're completely useless now, why are they included, exclude them to make it fair", etc. etc.

    The more blind the algorithm is to the composition of each roster, the less bias there is in matchmaking.

    And none of this touches on the actual question, which is "why should 'weak' rosters get matched up against 'weak' rosters?" Is it so people can enjoy the game mode more by not getting beaten? That would be fine if the "weak roster" division had worse rewards than the "lean roster" division, otherwise you're penalizing the more targeted rosters that are losing against harder competition.

    Maybe instead of people complaining about the fairness of match making, they should learn from the players that are beating them. I'm most likely about to lose my second GA tomorrow. The takeaway for me is "you have some work to do on your mod game." My roster is pretty lean. I haven't lost a squad yet this GA, but my opponent in the final put all the right mods on all the right toons and has more 6e mods than I do. I could complain that matchmaking isn't fair because it didn't take the mod disparity into account...or I could just work on that part of my roster for the next GA. Or, I could allocate my resources somewhere else that I think is important and accept that I might not win every GA if I get matched up against someone with better mods.

    I wouldn’t make such a broad statement about complainers here. I complain about the matchmaking because it unfairly compares ships to squads. I think it’s fair to say that my maxed out Poe’s x-wing is not the equivalent of a near maxed out CLS and Revan...wouldn’t you agree?
  • WookieWookie
    1460 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Kurrgan wrote: »
    I think the calculation of GP is fine, it just shouldn't look at your entire roster. I like to 7-star my charterers and check them off my list but am now being penalized for it especially when they are not in a combat ready state. It makes me crazy that I can't promote them and start earning shard shop currency without penalizing myself in GA. I don't know the correct answer but I wish the MM maybe only looked at the top X chars or whatever is required to play the match. 6 battles X 5 char slots = 30 for offense plus 30 for defense so look at my top 60. Add in fluff there and look at my top 80 but not the other 60 which have 0 effectiveness. It wouldn't kill them to test this scenario for a month or 2 and see if people scream more or less.

    100% this, especially with ships. You can only ever set 6 ships +1 capital on defense, and use 3 captals +18 on offense, so why are your ENTIRE ships' GP factored into matchmaking? I would also like to see data on how many people ever even have to use a second fleet on offense to win - I would speculate that a max of 12 ships+2 capitals are used on D+O combined, and thus only the top 12 ships+2cap ships' GP should be included in matchmaking calculations.

    Ship GP is 40% of my total GP, while ship BATTLES are only 12.5% (1/8) of the battles in GA. Why should my flushed out fleet (gotta fill those platoons if you want to be an asset rather than a leech in your guild) make GA harder?

    d21.gif


    Again going back to the zombie justification that CG doesn't want to disincentive players from leveling and gearing characters, but that it exactly what current GA matchmaking does.

  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Kurrgan wrote: »
    I think the calculation of GP is fine, it just shouldn't look at your entire roster. I like to 7-star my charterers and check them off my list but am now being penalized for it especially when they are not in a combat ready state. It makes me crazy that I can't promote them and start earning shard shop currency without penalizing myself in GA. I don't know the correct answer but I wish the MM maybe only looked at the top X chars or whatever is required to play the match. 6 battles X 5 char slots = 30 for offense plus 30 for defense so look at my top 60. Add in fluff there and look at my top 80 but not the other 60 which have 0 effectiveness. It wouldn't kill them to test this scenario for a month or 2 and see if people scream more or less.

    I would also like to see data on how many people ever even have to use a second fleet on offense to win - I would speculate that a max of 12 ships+2 capitals are used on D+O combined, and thus only the top 12 ships+2cap ships' GP should be included in matchmaking calculations.


    Not everyone has good ships. Plenty of people can’t win against a good fleet with 3 attempts much less 1. Last round my opponent had 2 attempts against my fleet. He still didn’t win, but he managed to take out a couple of ships so maybe if he had another decent fleet to try he could have done it in 3, but I’m sure he had nothing left to even make it worth trying. My current opponent has a terrible fleet and if he beats mine at all I will probably report him.
  • @Scuttlebutt I would agree with you, though your comparison is slightly apples and oranges. If you have a maxed out Poe's X-Wing, do you also have a maxed out Poe? If so, he's a pretty useful toon in GA. That said, fleet GP shouldn't be included in character only modes.

    @WookieWookie The average I looked at was about a 60/40 split between character and ship GP, so you're in the same position as everyone else.
  • vksg
    132 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Resource management =/= evaluation after the fact. Why would you invest in a toon that you didnt see a use for?

    Everyone that complains about having fluff and facing players that have a laser focused roster on GA or TW, seems to know what they want their roster to look like, why do I have to explain?

    The answer is too cluttered so I will stick to the two points above.
    1. After all it is still a collectors game. Should you really expect to be punished just for unlocking a character to 7*?
    2. I have a focused roster and win most of my GA. No problem with that. However, I also have responsibility for the other players in my guild and I can see a lot of them struggling because they can't resist that collector's habit to get that shiny new char unlocked. It's hard to see them punished for just having unused toons in their roster.
    Maybe to make this even clearer: For the unlocking part, this has nothing to do with resource management. You either cannot use those resources for anything else/better (shards) or they are not the limiting factor (G1-G5).

    No one is punished for unlocking anything, but if your only goal is to unlock toons, then you shouldnt be expecting to be super competitive in combat game mode that doesnt use your whole collection.
    Now that 6k limit on TW definitely surprises me, as it filters out exactly all those unlocked, low-geared 7* chars that should - I take that as an official stance - lower the guilds competitiveness.
    I understand that we won't get any further than an endless iteration between WAI and Player's Fault, which I find rather unfortunate.

    I joined because I thought this was a discussion about how MM and/or roster management could be improved. Regardless of how it currently works (WAI or not doesn't matter). All your answers read as "nothing needs to be changed, everything works just perfectly, no need you continue discussing possible improvements". I disagree but obey. To not just discuss for discussion's sake I appreciate your taking time and bow out of this one.

  • @Scuttlebutt I would agree with you, though your comparison is slightly apples and oranges. If you have a maxed out Poe's X-Wing, do you also have a maxed out Poe? If so, he's a pretty useful toon in GA. That said, fleet GP shouldn't be included in character only modes.

    @WookieWookie The average I looked at was about a 60/40 split between character and ship GP, so you're in the same position as everyone else.

    Sure, but the problem is that your GP is artificially inflated. Let's look at Houndstooth.

    Bossk GP: 24819
    Houndstooth GP: 63152, 37228 of which is Crew Power (Bossk).

    So in that one ship, Bossk adds another 40k GP to your roster.
    Ally Code 766-465-766 swgoh.gg/u/trystansr/collection/
  • Tanzos
    219 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Tanzos wrote: »
    I'm confused... is GA supposed to the ultimate test of resource management or ultimate test of skill? Seems like in the announcement it's supposed to be the ultimate test in skill.

    What makes you think resource management isn't a skill?

    I wasn't aware not starring Ururrrororroror to 6* and others like him was a skill. Especially when you get him free from bronzium.

    Also wasn't aware sitting on over 100mil in credits with a bunch of lvl 1 characters was also a skill.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Resource management =/= evaluation after the fact. Why would you invest in a toon that you didnt see a use for?

    Everyone that complains about having fluff and facing players that have a laser focused roster on GA or TW, seems to know what they want their roster to look like, why do I have to explain?

    The answer is too cluttered so I will stick to the two points above.
    1. After all it is still a collectors game. Should you really expect to be punished just for unlocking a character to 7*?
    2. I have a focused roster and win most of my GA. No problem with that. However, I also have responsibility for the other players in my guild and I can see a lot of them struggling because they can't resist that collector's habit to get that shiny new char unlocked. It's hard to see them punished for just having unused toons in their roster.
    Maybe to make this even clearer: For the unlocking part, this has nothing to do with resource management. You either cannot use those resources for anything else/better (shards) or they are not the limiting factor (G1-G5).

    No one is punished for unlocking anything, but if your only goal is to unlock toons, then you shouldnt be expecting to be super competitive in combat game mode that doesnt use your whole collection.
    Now that 6k limit on TW definitely surprises me, as it filters out exactly all those unlocked, low-geared 7* chars that should - I take that as an official stance - lower the guilds competitiveness.
    I understand that we won't get any further than an endless iteration between WAI and Player's Fault, which I find rather unfortunate.

    I joined because I thought this was a discussion about how MM and/or roster management could be improved. Regardless of how it currently works (WAI or not doesn't matter). All your answers read as "nothing needs to be changed, everything works just perfectly, no need you continue discussing possible improvements". I disagree but obey. To not just discuss for discussion's sake I appreciate your taking time and bow out of this one.

    Kyno is expressing his opinion as a player of this game. He’s not a dev and he never said you can’t discuss the issue or have a different opinion than he has.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Resource management =/= evaluation after the fact. Why would you invest in a toon that you didnt see a use for?

    Everyone that complains about having fluff and facing players that have a laser focused roster on GA or TW, seems to know what they want their roster to look like, why do I have to explain?

    The answer is too cluttered so I will stick to the two points above.
    1. After all it is still a collectors game. Should you really expect to be punished just for unlocking a character to 7*?
    2. I have a focused roster and win most of my GA. No problem with that. However, I also have responsibility for the other players in my guild and I can see a lot of them struggling because they can't resist that collector's habit to get that shiny new char unlocked. It's hard to see them punished for just having unused toons in their roster.
    Maybe to make this even clearer: For the unlocking part, this has nothing to do with resource management. You either cannot use those resources for anything else/better (shards) or they are not the limiting factor (G1-G5).

    No one is punished for unlocking anything, but if your only goal is to unlock toons, then you shouldnt be expecting to be super competitive in combat game mode that doesnt use your whole collection.
    Now that 6k limit on TW definitely surprises me, as it filters out exactly all those unlocked, low-geared 7* chars that should - I take that as an official stance - lower the guilds competitiveness.
    I understand that we won't get any further than an endless iteration between WAI and Player's Fault, which I find rather unfortunate.

    I joined because I thought this was a discussion about how MM and/or roster management could be improved. Regardless of how it currently works (WAI or not doesn't matter). All your answers read as "nothing needs to be changed, everything works just perfectly, no need you continue discussing possible improvements". I disagree but obey. To not just discuss for discussion's sake I appreciate your taking time and bow out of this one.

    I have never said nothing needs to be changed, the OPs stance is that MM is fine and GP calc needs to change. My opinion is that GP is fine and I was trying to explain why.

    There are valid reasons why the devs should not rate characters, and always be adjusting the GP of a toon.

    There is a valid argument to the fact that if you have X GP, and less toons you can use in a match with someone of X GP, that you probably shouldnt win, or at least that its understandable that it will be harder for you.

    We all made choices, mine are costing me in this game mode, I dont have the toons i want for defense, I am working on that. While i am working on that i know i will not be taking 1 in my matches and to get 2nd tier rewards will be a hard fought match. I'm ok with that. I also know that I can develop the teams I want ( and help my guild in TW at the same time), in the long run I will have a more competitive roster.
  • Rath_Tarr
    4944 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    @Scuttlebutt I would agree with you, though your comparison is slightly apples and oranges. If you have a maxed out Poe's X-Wing, do you also have a maxed out Poe? If so, he's a pretty useful toon in GA. That said, fleet GP shouldn't be included in character only modes.

    @WookieWookie The average I looked at was about a 60/40 split between character and ship GP, so you're in the same position as everyone else.

    Sure, but the problem is that your GP is artificially inflated. Let's look at Houndstooth.

    Bossk GP: 24819
    Houndstooth GP: 63152, 37228 of which is Crew Power (Bossk).

    So in that one ship, Bossk adds another 40k GP to your roster.
    Simply activating a ship at 1* doubles the GP cost of all crew members. The more stars the ship has, the greater the crew power GP multiplier.

    Once the ship is activated, anything you do to the crew members costs you 2-2.5x the GP of someone with the same toon but the ship not activated.
    Tanzos wrote: »
    Tanzos wrote: »
    I'm confused... is GA supposed to the ultimate test of resource management or ultimate test of skill? Seems like in the announcement it's supposed to be the ultimate test in skill.

    What makes you think resource management isn't a skill?

    I wasn't aware not starring Ururrrororroror to 6* and others like him was a skill. Especially when you get him free from bronzium.

    Also wasn't aware sitting on over 100mil in credits with a bunch of lvl 1 characters was also a skill.
    Not clicking the Activate button is a truly pro skill. ;)
  • Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Resource management =/= evaluation after the fact. Why would you invest in a toon that you didnt see a use for?

    Everyone that complains about having fluff and facing players that have a laser focused roster on GA or TW, seems to know what they want their roster to look like, why do I have to explain?

    The answer is too cluttered so I will stick to the two points above.
    1. After all it is still a collectors game. Should you really expect to be punished just for unlocking a character to 7*?
    2. I have a focused roster and win most of my GA. No problem with that. However, I also have responsibility for the other players in my guild and I can see a lot of them struggling because they can't resist that collector's habit to get that shiny new char unlocked. It's hard to see them punished for just having unused toons in their roster.
    Maybe to make this even clearer: For the unlocking part, this has nothing to do with resource management. You either cannot use those resources for anything else/better (shards) or they are not the limiting factor (G1-G5).

    No one is punished for unlocking anything, but if your only goal is to unlock toons, then you shouldnt be expecting to be super competitive in combat game mode that doesnt use your whole collection.
    Now that 6k limit on TW definitely surprises me, as it filters out exactly all those unlocked, low-geared 7* chars that should - I take that as an official stance - lower the guilds competitiveness.
    I understand that we won't get any further than an endless iteration between WAI and Player's Fault, which I find rather unfortunate.

    I joined because I thought this was a discussion about how MM and/or roster management could be improved. Regardless of how it currently works (WAI or not doesn't matter). All your answers read as "nothing needs to be changed, everything works just perfectly, no need you continue discussing possible improvements". I disagree but obey. To not just discuss for discussion's sake I appreciate your taking time and bow out of this one.

    I have never said nothing needs to be changed, the OPs stance is that MM is fine and GP calc needs to change. My opinion is that GP is fine and I was trying to explain why.

    There are valid reasons why the devs should not rate characters, and always be adjusting the GP of a toon.

    There is a valid argument to the fact that if you have X GP, and less toons you can use in a match with someone of X GP, that you probably shouldnt win, or at least that its understandable that it will be harder for you.

    We all made choices, mine are costing me in this game mode, I dont have the toons i want for defense, I am working on that. While i am working on that i know i will not be taking 1 in my matches and to get 2nd tier rewards will be a hard fought match. I'm ok with that. I also know that I can develop the teams I want ( and help my guild in TW at the same time), in the long run I will have a more competitive roster.

    Funny how your stance changed though. When this first came out even you said matchmaking by pure gp was not the way to go. Kinda sad , i know your a moderator so have to stick up for CG. But cmon GP is an awful calculator for investment since the investment is calculated so awfully. The most powerful additions to your investments, gear omegas and zetas are worth less than stars , but stars are the least important measure of a chatacter. See how many toons are arena worthy at 4 stars. But try and send in a 7 star gear 8 and see if it does the same.
    Since this mode wasnt around before , saying ppl should have done better growing their rosters is such crap. There was never a reason not too if you had extra currencies.
    Now there isnt because of GA. But guess what, the game has been out for years before this game mode came out. So saying just get better is actually pretty ridiculous as you cant undo anything you have done. So these ppl will never catch up as their fluff never goes away. G12 ugnaught never gets better. But hey as long as some of you get to win all the time, guess its ok. At least your not then complaining that ppl dont set d to at least get some credits for a match theyll never win. Lol oh wait yall do.
  • They can easily improve the matchmaking formula by disregarding any GP from toons under G8 or by only looking at a certain number....for example, if I have 6 teams on offense and 6 teams on defense in my GP bracket, that's 12 teams or 60 characters....so only look at the combined GP of the top 80 characters on the roster. Either way of tweaking the formula would result in infinitely better match-making.
  • But cmon GP is an awful calculator for investment since the investment is calculated so awfully.

    We hold these truths to be self evident.

  • Funny how people think sandbagging is resource management. I have every single toon at level 85 and still have over 100m credits. I have 10s of thousands of green and blue ability mats, over 1000 purple mats, thousands of low level gear. Not using them has nothing to do with "resource management," it has everything to do with gaming the GA system to get easier opponents.
  • I have made many poor choices in my development as a player. This hurts me in GA. But I don't have an issue with this. Now they don't count my fleet when fleets are not used, I am happy with how GA matching is calculated even if it often does not work in my favor. My failure to get certain meta toons should hurt my chances. My poor choices on over developing less useful toons should hurt a bit. I made many bad calls in a game about resource management and it hurts me in the PvP parts of the game as it should. I really don't get the whining about one's own mistakes hurting them in part of a game. That is what this game is about.

    Now I don't like how this encourages sandbagging. But often sandbagging is needed is many of games and sports. Wrestlers starve themselves to be under a certain weight. It is part of the sport.Sand bagging here is similar. Don't like it as I am a collector at heart and I enjoy developing my toons even so less than great ones. But I know other like this game for other reasons than I do. So the Min/max types have this and regular arena and I can still enjoy my style of game play. I don't get people who think everything must be fore them and whine constantly about things that others enjoy.

    And besides, even though I often don't have as many G12 toons or as many zetas as my opponents, I still do alright. It is amazing how planning in the event can make up for roster mistakes. I am playing for first right now. My roster is not as deep as to G12 toons, and key meta toons, and the like, but I take the time to plan for what they can do, what teams I am likely to face and I am still pulling some upsets. Besides even if I lose I still getting something for my efforts. Yes I will likely loose this next round as his roster is just better than mind. But that is this game. It is a game about resource management, and I made some bad calls on who to put resources in. This is the nature of the game. We should have to account for our choices as a player or what is the point of this game?
  • 100% this, especially with ships. You can only ever set 6 ships +1 capital on defense, and use 3 captals +18 on offense, so why are your ENTIRE ships' GP factored into matchmaking? I would also like to see data on how many people ever even have to use a second fleet on offense to win - I would speculate that a max of 12 ships+2 capitals are used on D+O combined, and thus only the top 12 ships+2cap ships' GP should be included in matchmaking calculations.

    Ship GP is 40% of my total GP, while ship BATTLES are only 12.5% (1/8) of the battles in GA. Why should my flushed out fleet (gotta fill those platoons if you want to be an asset rather than a leech in your guild) make GA harder?

    Twice, I've had GA battles where I won solely because of fleet. The first time was the 2 territory GA, where the fleet territory wasn't hidden (for those who don't remember, this was pre-falcon). I beat my opponent's fleet. My opponent used all three of his capital ships against my fleet and I survived. My second one was the round that just ended yesterday. I have a falcon, my opponent didn't. He used multiple fleets and couldn't beat mine (killed most of the ships, but not all of them). I cleared his fleet.

    Note: with yesterday's matchup, my opponent had 150k more character GP than me. Despite that, which so many people claim is an overwhelming disadvantage, I won.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    vksg wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Resource management =/= evaluation after the fact. Why would you invest in a toon that you didnt see a use for?

    Everyone that complains about having fluff and facing players that have a laser focused roster on GA or TW, seems to know what they want their roster to look like, why do I have to explain?

    The answer is too cluttered so I will stick to the two points above.
    1. After all it is still a collectors game. Should you really expect to be punished just for unlocking a character to 7*?
    2. I have a focused roster and win most of my GA. No problem with that. However, I also have responsibility for the other players in my guild and I can see a lot of them struggling because they can't resist that collector's habit to get that shiny new char unlocked. It's hard to see them punished for just having unused toons in their roster.
    Maybe to make this even clearer: For the unlocking part, this has nothing to do with resource management. You either cannot use those resources for anything else/better (shards) or they are not the limiting factor (G1-G5).

    No one is punished for unlocking anything, but if your only goal is to unlock toons, then you shouldnt be expecting to be super competitive in combat game mode that doesnt use your whole collection.
    Now that 6k limit on TW definitely surprises me, as it filters out exactly all those unlocked, low-geared 7* chars that should - I take that as an official stance - lower the guilds competitiveness.
    I understand that we won't get any further than an endless iteration between WAI and Player's Fault, which I find rather unfortunate.

    I joined because I thought this was a discussion about how MM and/or roster management could be improved. Regardless of how it currently works (WAI or not doesn't matter). All your answers read as "nothing needs to be changed, everything works just perfectly, no need you continue discussing possible improvements". I disagree but obey. To not just discuss for discussion's sake I appreciate your taking time and bow out of this one.

    I have never said nothing needs to be changed, the OPs stance is that MM is fine and GP calc needs to change. My opinion is that GP is fine and I was trying to explain why.

    There are valid reasons why the devs should not rate characters, and always be adjusting the GP of a toon.

    There is a valid argument to the fact that if you have X GP, and less toons you can use in a match with someone of X GP, that you probably shouldnt win, or at least that its understandable that it will be harder for you.

    We all made choices, mine are costing me in this game mode, I dont have the toons i want for defense, I am working on that. While i am working on that i know i will not be taking 1 in my matches and to get 2nd tier rewards will be a hard fought match. I'm ok with that. I also know that I can develop the teams I want ( and help my guild in TW at the same time), in the long run I will have a more competitive roster.

    Funny how your stance changed though. When this first came out even you said matchmaking by pure gp was not the way to go. Kinda sad , i know your a moderator so have to stick up for CG. But cmon GP is an awful calculator for investment since the investment is calculated so awfully. The most powerful additions to your investments, gear omegas and zetas are worth less than stars , but stars are the least important measure of a chatacter. See how many toons are arena worthy at 4 stars. But try and send in a 7 star gear 8 and see if it does the same.
    Since this mode wasnt around before , saying ppl should have done better growing their rosters is such crap. There was never a reason not too if you had extra currencies.
    Now there isnt because of GA. But guess what, the game has been out for years before this game mode came out. So saying just get better is actually pretty ridiculous as you cant undo anything you have done. So these ppl will never catch up as their fluff never goes away. G12 ugnaught never gets better. But hey as long as some of you get to win all the time, guess its ok. At least your not then complaining that ppl dont set d to at least get some credits for a match theyll never win. Lol oh wait yall do.

    I have always said i was ok with it. i have said they could make some changes, but never said it has to or its ruining the game mode.

    seriously, can you quote me saying that matching by pure GP is not the way to go?

    it is literally a calculation for investment. each particular upgrade weighs the same for each character. the only difference between the mad on each toon is if they have an additional ability. meaning if you choose to put a level on a character its equal to any other level added to another toon. it is not a measure of effectiveness, but it 100% is a measure of how much stuff you have put into a toon.

    TB is the only place when pure GP matters, but if you look at where you are in the rewards and how fast your guild can grow, there was a point where the cost/benefit lost a lot and stopped being worth the investment. on top of that, there are particular teams that can be built and help you in multiple ways and those should have been a priority.

    pure GP bumping also hurt you in TW, so by then we again had many reasons to build certain teams and again not just bump pure GP.

    again TW/GA is less than half the roster, and you can "catch up" by focusing on building the right teams. that what this game is about, resource management to use those resources in the most effective way.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Funny how people think sandbagging is resource management. I have every single toon at level 85 and still have over 100m credits. I have 10s of thousands of green and blue ability mats, over 1000 purple mats, thousands of low level gear. Not using them has nothing to do with "resource management," it has everything to do with gaming the GA system to get easier opponents.

    How can it possibly have "everything to do with gaming the GA system" when people have been playing this way for years before GA was even a thing?
  • Tanzos
    219 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Liath wrote: »
    Funny how people think sandbagging is resource management. I have every single toon at level 85 and still have over 100m credits. I have 10s of thousands of green and blue ability mats, over 1000 purple mats, thousands of low level gear. Not using them has nothing to do with "resource management," it has everything to do with gaming the GA system to get easier opponents.

    How can it possibly have "everything to do with gaming the GA system" when people have been playing this way for years before GA was even a thing?

    Because back then there wasn't enough credits and ability mats to go around to max everyone out. Now those are in great abundance and only until the last two Weekly Shop Drops have I actually gone below 50mil in credits.

    P.S. LOVE the large amount of stuff I can buy with credits in the weekly shop. Finally something to do with them.
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