Please stop the Dragon Ball Z power creep, we want rock paper scissors

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So I call a game Dragon Ball Z when it revolves around endless cycles of power increases. New content? Nope, you gotta get +100 on all your stats first. New char or boss? Nope, you gotta get +100 on your stats, then when you get that new char, you're untouchable until the next bigger and badder one comes along.

Most of us prefer rock paper scissors. New content? Use a different synergy you didn't think of before. New bad guy? He tears through my team, but there's another team that can take him (though they tend to be vulnerable to my team).

So General Grievous. Great idea thus far, except you mixed rock paper scissors with Dragon Ball Z. He has straight up more dmg than anyone regardless of killing his own team.

I'd rather do the following. Remove his ability to lower max health of enemies, and lower turn meter from light instead of dark, lower potency of dark instead of light. Light relies on turn meter for their engine, dark relies on potency for their debuff engine.

Or something less straight up power increase, and more rock paper scissors. Great start though, very much like the movies and cartoons!

Replies

  • Here's the problem: You can only do rock-paper-scissors for so long before things get stale. How many teams do you realistically think they could crank out that are roughly equivalent to each other, yet all have distinct, unique kits? At some point they have to just make all the numbers bigger and let somebody dominate until the new "power level" is filled out.
    u58t4vkrvnrz.png



  • No you don't have to. Ever played Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2, vs something like WoW? Just require new synergy which can come from new releases.

    This re- work is a case in point, it's a re work to create synergy where it didn't previously exist. The power increase only happened because of Revan's power increase.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    MKIceman wrote: »
    No you don't have to. Ever played Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2, vs something like WoW? Just require new synergy which can come from new releases.

    This re- work is a case in point, it's a re work to create synergy where it didn't previously exist. The power increase only happened because of Revan's power increase.

    i thought it was the synergy that made revan teams this good?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • His synergy is about essentially +100 stats (rather, stacking per specific faction) and straight up dmg increase on mark / assist. It's the definition of Dragon Ball Z.

    Versus a rock paper scissors synergy that might have been the stat gains but you only get extra dmg vs Sith.
  • MKIceman wrote: »
    No you don't have to. Ever played Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2, vs something like WoW? Just require new synergy which can come from new releases.

    This re- work is a case in point, it's a re work to create synergy where it didn't previously exist. The power increase only happened because of Revan's power increase.

    I did play WoW for several years, and I distinctly remember the arena being consistently dominated by one or two team compositions, just like this game's squad arena is. Last I played (which was years ago now), if you weren't running Retribution Paladin + Frost Mage in 2v2, you couldn't win. 3v3 was like...Shaman, Hunter, Mage? I think? It's been a long time. And I couldn't even really play 5v5, because I was a warlock and would immediately get focus-fired and obliterated in the first 10 seconds even if I went full tank build and sacrificed all my stats for health and resilience.

    Point is, it was the same thing. One comp inevitably comes to dominate and you either run it or lose. Then there's a brief period where two or three are viable, then the next "power level" gets released and the cycle starts over. It's just the nature of PVP in a game where different kits are a thing. If you want an even playing field, go play a first person shooter.
    u58t4vkrvnrz.png



  • That's my point, I don't want another WoW, I want another Guild Wars which does it right.

    Here's a summary in a nutshell of that comparison:

    https://youtu.be/Ax-_06Acj8Y
  • Jarvind wrote: »
    Here's the problem: You can only do rock-paper-scissors for so long before things get stale. How many teams do you realistically think they could crank out that are roughly equivalent to each other, yet all have distinct, unique kits? At some point they have to just make all the numbers bigger and let somebody dominate until the new "power level" is filled out.

    Sorry, I disagree. And also think you are presuming that the meta jumps are unavoidable. There are literally over a dozen factions that it would be possible to tweak to keep more balanced. CG manipulates the meta purposefully, in order to create "artificial" demand for the newest, most OP characters/ships.

    They haven't spent 3+ years trying to balance the game. If it took them that long, that would make them completely inept ****. No, they manipulate the meta (and keep it unbalanced) by design. If you really think they can't figure out how to make BH, Clones, droids, Empire, Ewoks, Troopers, Jedi, Sith, First Order, Nightsisters, Scoundrels, Phoenix, Rebels, etc. each relatively comparable, how do you think they design the various events for specific factions, groups or the bonuses for them in special game modes?

    The big concern is that in the last 18 months, CG has been far more aggressive in the meta-manipulation game than they had previously. While that seems like an easier way to "force" spending, it also seems like a faster way to guarantee player burnout (especially when they realize they are being lead around by the throat) and ultimately, the game's demise.

    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • If new characters aren't more powerful, then no one will spend money on them.....no one spends money, there is no game.
  • I prefer power creep over rock paper scissors.
    You wanna be the best? Get the best team.

  • If new characters aren't more powerful, then no one will spend money on them.....no one spends money, there is no game.

    Power creep is fine. No one if arguing that. But there is a difference between power creep and power "jumps". The last 18 months has been almost exclusively the latter, not the former.

    I also think it's worth noting that this is Star Wars. People would have spent on Revan even if his kit was not so crazy OP. They did it when GMYoda was first released. If CG would simply release characters and ships players desire with interesting kits that are competitive (even with some power creep), there would be more than sufficient income in the game.

    The problem with the power jump model, is that a player only does that once or twice before they realize they are being taken advantage of. They lose interest and leave - or worse...stop spending, but then hang around and warn their guildmates or forum friends or buddies on reddit not to spend due to this practice. The disappointing thing about this "power jump" model is that CG wasn't always this aggressive about it. There was a time in the game's history where players felt that had real options as far as resource spending. For many it is now simply: save until CG releases the newest, OP character, then dump into that character. Then start saving for the next one. Repeat. THAT is boring - and certainly doesn't encourage spending.

    I spent more money in the first 6 months I played this game than in the last 18 months combined. The above practice of the last 18 months is precisely why. Star Wars kept me as a player, but CG has lost me as a customer.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • I prefer power creep over rock paper scissors.
    You wanna be the best? Get the best team.

    I can't wait until we finally get to the character that at G12, with his unique zeta'd just instantly wins the match, since all the abilities introduced in the months before that are so long that you need to download a separate book to even read them and there's no other way to topple them.
  • Don't ever complain about anything on here. People will attack you viciously, I've learned. You must like and agree with everything EA is doing. You have been warned.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    SamuraiUX wrote: »
    Don't ever complain about anything on here. People will attack you viciously, I've learned. You must like and agree with everything EA is doing. You have been warned.

    haha, try complimenting ea/cg to see if you won't get attacked viciously.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • @Nikoms565 both very excellent posts and very much the reason why I refuse to open the wallet and meta jump. I enjoy the game but don't want it to become a "job".
  • Came here to give my 2 cents but Nikom already said everything so perfectly. :)
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • Agree with @Nikoms565 as well. I don't have JTR, I don't have 3PO, I don't have Traya, and I don't have Revan. I'm not trying to get them. I'm perfectly happy working on who I want to work on, and I have 3.4 million GP, so I'm not a total sucker. But I'm quickly losing interest in following the meta and buying my way into power jumping characters. As a matter of fact, I stopped using my zBastila team and started fighting arena with a bunch of fun, weirdly synergistic teams... I dropped from the 70s to the 500s in arena and I haven't been this relaxed in a long time. It's much more fun trying win on strategy and interesting team combos than on whether or not my exact same team as everyone else's has 300 speed or only 290 speed.

    EA is definitely approaching this wrong, but I'm still enjoying myself by ignoring them and their marching orders, so I'm'a stick around for now.
  • This is NOT an MMORPG. GW, GW2 are, I have played both for far longer than I care to admit. SWGOH is built on powercreep. If they remove it, the game is done. They operate on the Tony Stark pre-Iron Man philosophy. Sell to both sides and keep the battle escalating.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    If new characters aren't more powerful, then no one will spend money on them.....no one spends money, there is no game.

    Power creep is fine. No one if arguing that. But there is a difference between power creep and power "jumps". The last 18 months has been almost exclusively the latter, not the former.

    I also think it's worth noting that this is Star Wars. People would have spent on Revan even if his kit was not so crazy OP. They did it when GMYoda was first released. If CG would simply release characters and ships players desire with interesting kits that are competitive (even with some power creep), there would be more than sufficient income in the game.

    The problem with the power jump model, is that a player only does that once or twice before they realize they are being taken advantage of. They lose interest and leave - or worse...stop spending, but then hang around and warn their guildmates or forum friends or buddies on reddit not to spend due to this practice. The disappointing thing about this "power jump" model is that CG wasn't always this aggressive about it. There was a time in the game's history where players felt that had real options as far as resource spending. For many it is now simply: save until CG releases the newest, OP character, then dump into that character. Then start saving for the next one. Repeat. THAT is boring - and certainly doesn't encourage spending.

    I spent more money in the first 6 months I played this game than in the last 18 months combined. The above practice of the last 18 months is precisely why. Star Wars kept me as a player, but CG has lost me as a customer.

    Perfectly said. I too spent more money early. Lately I haven’t even needed to spend money, because as you said, I simply saved waiting for the jump. If I wasn’t worried about falling behind on the next big jump I would have a Phoenix squad, imperial troopers, bounty hunters, etc. Instead those squads are half finished because I’m too scared to poor resources into them.

  • I prefer the Dragonball Z style of power leaps.
    1. Makes boring old content like raids easier/Auto.
    2. Makes people invest in the next big meta wave or people like me will forever be stuck with our favourite team (Zaul) instead of a new team. In fact, if every team was balanced then any Tom, **** and Hairy is going to be able to hit 1 for payout, you’re not going to enjoy how much you drop or how much you’re going to have to climb in Squad Arena.
    3. If all teams were balanced like RPS, then the only advantage you have is mods. I really don’t want this game to be Star Wars Galaxy of Mods even more so than it already is. Especially since my luck is craptastic and I haven’t gotten any god tier speed Secondaries on my mods.

    And lastly, you don’t represent “Us”. At least that’s not what I see judging from the responses you’ve gotten so far.
  • Jarvind
    3920 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    SamuraiUX wrote: »
    Don't ever complain about anything on here. People will attack you viciously, I've learned. You must like and agree with everything EA is doing. You have been warned.

    It's less that I want to "attack" anyone and more that it becomes really tiresome reading all this "screw CG, they just want your money, they don't want balance, blah blah blah" garbage over and over and over and over. From people who are just going to keep playing the game anyway. If you hate it so much, stop playing. But the people that **** and moan the most are also the ones playing (and probably spending) the most. It's just hypocritical and obnoxious.

    They need to make money. They don't charge a subscription fee, so they have to find ways to get people to keep spending. That's just how "free to play" works. It's not going to change as long as people are willing to keep throwing money at it.
    MKIceman wrote: »
    That's my point, I don't want another WoW, I want another Guild Wars which does it right.

    Here's a summary in a nutshell of that comparison:

    https://youtu.be/Ax-_06Acj8Y

    I honestly was interested to watch this, but I saw that it was over 30 minutes long and was just like...no.
    u58t4vkrvnrz.png



  • MKIceman
    88 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Jarvind wrote: »
    I honestly was interested to watch this, but I saw that it was over 30 minutes long and was just like...no.

    Your loss, it shows that you can have a game that is built on variety and variability (rock paper scissors) without the power escalation or locked in classes like WoW, not have a subscription fee or freemium pay to win items yet still make money (and thrive) on cosmetic items. You should actually just try the game.
  • This is NOT an MMORPG.

    Yes it is. Why don't you think it is?
  • Huatimus wrote: »
    I prefer the Dragonball Z style of power leaps.
    1. Makes boring old content like raids easier/Auto.
    2. Makes people invest in the next big meta wave or people like me will forever be stuck with our favourite team (Zaul) instead of a new team. In fact, if every team was balanced then any Tom, **** and Hairy is going to be able to hit 1 for payout, you’re not going to enjoy how much you drop or how much you’re going to have to climb in Squad Arena.
    3. If all teams were balanced like RPS, then the only advantage you have is mods. I really don’t want this game to be Star Wars Galaxy of Mods even more so than it already is. Especially since my luck is craptastic and I haven’t gotten any god tier speed Secondaries on my mods.

    And lastly, you don’t represent “Us”. At least that’s not what I see judging from the responses you’ve gotten so far.

    If the problem is raids, then fix the raids, or release new ones that rely on specific synergy or character abilities (like the journeys) rather than power escalation.

    I already climb every day to number 1, our shard rotates but has grown. I would welcome the variety.

    No, balance means abilities, not gear (or mods as this game calls it; gear here is really just a prerequisite since you have no optionality around it).

    I guess I only represent my top 50 arena shard, and my guild, who agree with me, vs the 4 people here who disagree. Of course there could be more folks out there of either opinion, it's not represented here in this obscure post on a forum that thousands do not read. And frankly I'm not interested in players' opinions as much as that of the devs.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    MKIceman wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    I prefer the Dragonball Z style of power leaps.
    1. Makes boring old content like raids easier/Auto.
    2. Makes people invest in the next big meta wave or people like me will forever be stuck with our favourite team (Zaul) instead of a new team. In fact, if every team was balanced then any Tom, **** and Hairy is going to be able to hit 1 for payout, you’re not going to enjoy how much you drop or how much you’re going to have to climb in Squad Arena.
    3. If all teams were balanced like RPS, then the only advantage you have is mods. I really don’t want this game to be Star Wars Galaxy of Mods even more so than it already is. Especially since my luck is craptastic and I haven’t gotten any god tier speed Secondaries on my mods.

    And lastly, you don’t represent “Us”. At least that’s not what I see judging from the responses you’ve gotten so far.

    If the problem is raids, then fix the raids, or release new ones that rely on specific synergy or character abilities (like the journeys) rather than power escalation.

    I already climb every day to number 1, our shard rotates but has grown. I would welcome the variety.

    No, balance means abilities, not gear (or mods as this game calls it; gear here is really just a prerequisite since you have no optionality around it).

    I guess I only represent my top 50 arena shard, and my guild, who agree with me, vs the 4 people here who disagree. Of course there could be more folks out there of either opinion, it's not represented here in this obscure post on a forum that thousands do not read. And frankly I'm not interested in players' opinions as much as that of the devs.

    I think you (and others) underestimate how "bad" it will get if the game was truly balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way without powercreep/leap. Do you think you'll still be able to get to rank 1 daily in a more balanced arena? Keep in mind that there are alot of players looking to take your spot if they had the chance. What's currently preventing them from doing exactly that is your superior team, take that away and it's going to be mayhem.
    As for raids, people tend to like being able to keep improving. Being capped because there is no way to improve your score anymore since there's no "powerexcalation" is boring as heck. Take the sith raid for example, it has become a whole lot more enjoyable over time due to powercreep. Or the rancor, aren't you glad you can just auto the whole thing in 7min now?
    It's fine if you're not interrested in the opinion of others, the same goes the other way around. The opinion of the devs on this matter has been pretty clear ever since the game's release though. Powercreep is the name of the game and 1 team to rule them all. You may not like it, you may try to change their minds, but they're just as interrested in your opinion as they are interrested in the next guy's opinion.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • I'm saying that competition for number 1 is more fun for me and those who agree with me than the alternative, and that's speaking from experience.

    I don't think you understand my point about raids. They don't have to be boring, they are only boring because they are currently designed on power instead of ability. In a game like Guild Wars, as an example, success is dependent on which abilities you slot in different creative ways, and coordination with team mates to counter the raid mechanics and help each other. Power is not a factor because each encounter auto scales everyone to the same equivalent level, including gear, so it becomes a question of mechanics and gameplay instead of prior grinding. This takes grinding out completely, and leaves you focusing on the gameplay and story, and multiplayer aspects.

    There is no reason that cannot work here, we have all the fundamentals for it already. The developers have a unique opportunity right now, they are at an inflection point where they can go down this path if they want.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    MKIceman wrote: »
    I'm saying that competition for number 1 is more fun for me and those who agree with me than the alternative, and that's speaking from experience.
    I think you and everyone who agrees with you is wrong. Competition for number 1 will turn into a who can refresh the most contest (i can elaborate further if you want me to), which i think neither of us or anyone who you think agrees with you will actually enjoy. Obviously you think you're right, but please just explain why instead of just referring to your experience.
    I don't think you understand my point about raids. They don't have to be boring, they are only boring because they are currently designed on power instead of ability. In a game like Guild Wars, as an example, success is dependent on which abilities you slot in different creative ways, and coordination with team mates to counter the raid mechanics and help each other. Power is not a factor because each encounter auto scales everyone to the same equivalent level, including gear, so it becomes a question of mechanics and gameplay instead of prior grinding. This takes grinding out completely, and leaves you focusing on the gameplay and story, and multiplayer aspects.
    I think i still don't understand, or phrased differently, i don't see how that's even possible in this game. I've never played guild wars and have no interrest in ever playing it, so if you're willing to describe how a raid could be designed on ability i might agree with you, but now i simply don't know what you're talking about.
    From where i'm sitting it's already all about ability, finding the right teamcomposition for each raid/phase and strategize to get maximum damage. Over time it gets easier due to powercreep, but having the right team/strategy is still the key to success.
    There is no reason that cannot work here, we have all the fundamentals for it already. The developers have a unique opportunity right now, they are at an inflection point where they can go down this path if they want.
    They'll never remove the grind out of this game, it's one of the core elements of this game. So realistically speaking that's never going to happen. There also isn't a story line in this game whatsoever. We get a few cutscenes, but that's about it.
    Based on what you're saying i think you want to turn this game into something it's not. Or maybe i don't understand what you actually want to happen, i'm not sure at this point.
    Pretty much all the strategy in this game takes a backseat to the resourcemanagement aspect. It seems you want that to be the other way around, but based on the decisions the devs made over the past 3 and a half years that is not going to happen. Not because i don't want it to happen, but because the grind and powercreep have been this game's bread and butter since forever.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    MKIceman wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    I prefer the Dragonball Z style of power leaps.
    1. Makes boring old content like raids easier/Auto.
    2. Makes people invest in the next big meta wave or people like me will forever be stuck with our favourite team (Zaul) instead of a new team. In fact, if every team was balanced then any Tom, **** and Hairy is going to be able to hit 1 for payout, you’re not going to enjoy how much you drop or how much you’re going to have to climb in Squad Arena.
    3. If all teams were balanced like RPS, then the only advantage you have is mods. I really don’t want this game to be Star Wars Galaxy of Mods even more so than it already is. Especially since my luck is craptastic and I haven’t gotten any god tier speed Secondaries on my mods.

    And lastly, you don’t represent “Us”. At least that’s not what I see judging from the responses you’ve gotten so far.

    If the problem is raids, then fix the raids, or release new ones that rely on specific synergy or character abilities (like the journeys) rather than power escalation.

    I already climb every day to number 1, our shard rotates but has grown. I would welcome the variety.

    No, balance means abilities, not gear (or mods as this game calls it; gear here is really just a prerequisite since you have no optionality around it).

    I guess I only represent my top 50 arena shard, and my guild, who agree with me, vs the 4 people here who disagree. Of course there could be more folks out there of either opinion, it's not represented here in this obscure post on a forum that thousands do not read. And frankly I'm not interested in players' opinions as much as that of the devs.

    I think you (and others) underestimate how "bad" it will get if the game was truly balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way without powercreep/leap. Do you think you'll still be able to get to rank 1 daily in a more balanced arena? Keep in mind that there are alot of players looking to take your spot if they had the chance. What's currently preventing them from doing exactly that is your superior team, take that away and it's going to be mayhem.

    Sorry Leef, but this isn't true. Nothing holds on defense - not even the mighty Revan. That's precisely why there are shard chats - so people don't step all over each other at different payout times. The game had been (and has periods of) "rock/paper/scissors" and it worked fine.

    No one is suggesting doing away with power creep. CG really just needs to stop with the forced power "leaps" - as that doesn't encourage any type of diversity. If all CG is going to do is directly manipulate the meta by releasing a new OP character every few months, then doing so again a few months later, creating a model where one team dominates that meta (to the tune of 85%+ usage), that's bad for the long-term health of the game. As players become aware that that is the model, they will simply stop "buying" the new meta every 3-4 months. Many have already stopped - and, imho, that is why CG is being more aggressive with it now.

    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    MKIceman wrote: »
    Huatimus wrote: »
    I prefer the Dragonball Z style of power leaps.
    1. Makes boring old content like raids easier/Auto.
    2. Makes people invest in the next big meta wave or people like me will forever be stuck with our favourite team (Zaul) instead of a new team. In fact, if every team was balanced then any Tom, **** and Hairy is going to be able to hit 1 for payout, you’re not going to enjoy how much you drop or how much you’re going to have to climb in Squad Arena.
    3. If all teams were balanced like RPS, then the only advantage you have is mods. I really don’t want this game to be Star Wars Galaxy of Mods even more so than it already is. Especially since my luck is craptastic and I haven’t gotten any god tier speed Secondaries on my mods.

    And lastly, you don’t represent “Us”. At least that’s not what I see judging from the responses you’ve gotten so far.

    If the problem is raids, then fix the raids, or release new ones that rely on specific synergy or character abilities (like the journeys) rather than power escalation.

    I already climb every day to number 1, our shard rotates but has grown. I would welcome the variety.

    No, balance means abilities, not gear (or mods as this game calls it; gear here is really just a prerequisite since you have no optionality around it).

    I guess I only represent my top 50 arena shard, and my guild, who agree with me, vs the 4 people here who disagree. Of course there could be more folks out there of either opinion, it's not represented here in this obscure post on a forum that thousands do not read. And frankly I'm not interested in players' opinions as much as that of the devs.

    I think you (and others) underestimate how "bad" it will get if the game was truly balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way without powercreep/leap. Do you think you'll still be able to get to rank 1 daily in a more balanced arena? Keep in mind that there are alot of players looking to take your spot if they had the chance. What's currently preventing them from doing exactly that is your superior team, take that away and it's going to be mayhem.

    Sorry Leef, but this isn't true. Nothing holds on defense - not even the mighty Revan. That's precisely why there are shard chats - so people don't step all over each other at different payout times. The game had been (and has periods of) "rock/paper/scissors" and it worked fine.

    No one is suggesting doing away with power creep. CG really just needs to stop with the forced power "leaps" - as that doesn't encourage any type of diversity. If all CG is going to do is directly manipulate the meta by releasing a new OP character every few months, then doing so again a few months later, creating a model where one team dominates that meta (to the tune of 85%+ usage), that's bad for the long-term health of the game. As players become aware that that is the model, they will simply stop "buying" the new meta every 3-4 months. Many have already stopped - and, imho, that is why CG is being more aggressive with it now.

    It kinda depends on how balanced you want to make it. It has never been close to balanced ever and there has never been a rock/paper/scissor meta in which you had to switch teams to win. That's the truth.
    Also, revan holds on defense better than any other team at the moment, that's the only reason he's being used this much. I personally like using revan, but some of my guildmates have switched only because they were dropping too much on def. Winning on offense may not be a problem for 95% of the top20, but that other 5% will always target the weakest team. There are ofcourse a--hool shardchats who target outsiders, but i refuse to believe that's the main goal for shardchats.
    The diversity issue isn't necessarily a powercreep issue either imo, it's just poor planning. Ofcourse powercreep is a factor, but like i said in the previous comment, most people enjoyed arena more prior to revan's 2nd event eventhough revan was already part of the meta back then.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef wrote: »
    I think you and everyone who agrees with you is wrong. Competition for number 1 will turn into a who can refresh the most contest (i can elaborate further if you want me to), which i think neither of us or anyone who you think agrees with you will actually enjoy. Obviously you think you're right, but please just explain why instead of just referring to your experience.

    ...

    I think i still don't understand, or phrased differently, i don't see how that's even possible in this game. I've never played guild wars and have no interrest in ever playing it, so if you're willing to describe how a raid could be designed on ability i might agree with you, but now i simply don't know what you're talking about.
    From where i'm sitting it's already all about ability, finding the right teamcomposition for each raid/phase and strategize to get maximum damage. Over time it gets easier due to powercreep, but having the right team/strategy is still the key to success.

    ...

    They'll never remove the grind out of this game, it's one of the core elements of this game. So realistically speaking that's never going to happen. There also isn't a story line in this game whatsoever. We get a few cutscenes, but that's about it.
    Based on what you're saying i think you want to turn this game into something it's not. Or maybe i don't understand what you actually want to happen, i'm not sure at this point.
    Pretty much all the strategy in this game takes a backseat to the resourcemanagement aspect. It seems you want that to be the other way around, but based on the decisions the devs made over the past 3 and a half years that is not going to happen. Not because i don't want it to happen, but because the grind and powercreep have been this game's bread and butter since forever.

    By the way, thank you for your comments, they are logical and well thought out, beyond the 'this is what I like and nothing will change that' posts. What I ask you is to avoid speculation about what could happen and instead look at evidence of what already did happen in both this and other games.

    Every shard has different people at different payout hours. The only time it matters to climb and lock in is during your own hour when you want to take number 1 or get the highest rank possible, otherwise you can expect to be knocked back if you hit someone else during their hour when they are climbing.

    To facilitate this, many shards like mine have created Discord chat servers and in game chat rooms where we post everyone's payout hours into one big schedule so we know who is going when, and we can avoid the random sniping leading to crystal refresh. It is mutually beneficial for all, but still does not eliminate the need to climb every day, which is just how competition works despite cooperation, and that's fine and good.

    In more volatile situations, typically top 100 through 20, and certainly even top 10 through 1 after the most recent Revan event, no matter who you are, what team you have, whether a fully geared and modded prot heavy Revan GK team, or super fast and deadly one, or any Traya variant, you still lose on defense. No team exists that holds perfectly on defense, otherwise there would be no rock paper scissors and we would be living in extreme Dragon Ball Z, which has brought down other games like Marvel War of Heroes (app card game like Magic with a story and pve backdrop but ended up focusing on Dragon Ball Z power escalation for progress). Have you played it or a game like it? I played that one for a while until I realized what was going on. They've closed down since then. Similar experience with other games.

    I'll describe Guild Wars (1 and 2) for you. They are PC based (maybe console too) MMORPGs. Rather than the ubiquitous World of Warcraft model where you are locked into specific classes and builds and you are completely dependent on your gear stats (which come from very low percentage drop rates), you instead have a number of ability slots composed of abilities across classes and gear (classes and gear produce abilities you can use), and you choose what you want to slot at any time, which produces different combos and effects depending on what you have slotted and how you use them. Don't want to be punished for picking mage and not warrior for this fight? No problem, slot the spellcasting abilities in and use a staff instead of that sword. (GW2 is slightly more restrictive in this sense but the core of GW1 variability is still there. In GW1 you didn't really have classes, whereas GW2 you still pick a class and your choices of what you can slot don't draw as much from other classes as they do flavors of what makes each class unique) Of course you may not be as effective as if you brought a fire mage, but you can still get the job done. Gear is mostly cosmetic at this point, there are no gear drops in the world, only currency, XP (if you're not max level), and crafting mats for cosmetic stuff. Gear scales with your level, they don't produce stats of their own. Raids require the right slot choices and combo executions, and people working together to counter the boss while protecting the attackers. Or other mechanics where you have to put out fires in houses while stopping cows from escaping while ensuring the goats are still happy. Etc. There is no single ubiquitous mechanic that can become overused and stale.

    Watching the video is more helpful than reading my words.

    So what can SWGoH do? My overarching point is that it's not only possible to make a game like that, but to succeed at it, without subscriptions, and thrive to the point of releasing expansions long after initial launch. It means we're not forced to accept the WoW model of doing things, we don't have to live with Dragon Ball Z power escalation, and furthermore those models have destroyed games in the past and continue to do so today.

    I'm not suggesting making a copy and paste in mobile form (though honestly I would buy that in a heartbeat). I'm suggesting the developers get creative with what they have already, as we have the fundamentals in place. As an example of an aspect of the game that could try it out, here is my suggestion for fleet: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/185509/fleet-ship-and-space-combat-overhaul-suggestion

    The question for the developers is, what kind of game do you want to be at your core, which will dictate how long a lifespan you have. Do you want to be a resource mgmt game with everything else tucked in as fluff to entice people, do you want to be a pve game, do you want to be a pvp game? Yes you can try all three, but at the end of the day, which one wins out? I think the answer depends on demographics and sales.

    From my experience, more people spend more over time on cosmetic stuff rather than functional (or pay to win) stuff, because cosmetic stuff has no real creative ceiling, and can be enjoyed after you win the game (or are waiting for the next thing to beat), and there tend to be more people who don't beat the game than those who do. Furthermore, Star Wars has a rich franchise and fanbase who each like specific chars and so many of them are here just to collect them. (People have told me this) The dress up aspect of SWTOR is hugely appealing there next to the story (frankly the only things keeping that game alive), aspects sadly missing here though you get snippets in the journey events.

    Sell me costume changes and give me more atmosphere like TB or cutscenes from the legendary and journey events, and I'm hooked, those are very entertaining for a Star Wars fan like myself. Force me to grind every day to stay competitive in pve or pvp (rather than just let me play the pve or pvp -- disproportionately more time spent grinding and preparing rather than actually playing) and I'm less interested in a second job, like many i know who have already quit (just like in other games). If I like the pve or pvp enough I will buy more time, if i don't then I am only doing it because it feeds the resources needed for something else (like my costume collection).

    Again, my point is, to make the actual gameplay more enjoyable and profitable in the long run, you don't have to do power escalation. Other games failed doing that. It's already proven that you can do a different design, it's just a matter of, what do you want to do.
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