Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.
  • Line_LeBobcat
    29 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You must not have visited the forums in 2016: Pitchforks were out for Poe refunds.

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/11891/please-stop-asking-for-refunds

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/13026/newsflash-poe-is-still-viable-in-arena

    "All you people freaking out about how Poe is useless now and saying you want a refund need to relax."

    Anyways, no one got anything in 2016. However in 2016 CG was not changing a zeta, the most valuable asset in the game after it has been working for 2+ Years, and CG had not said Poe was WAI on their own forums which CG did in 2019 when Finn+C3PO shortly after HAAT solo was discovered.

    if CG nerfs P3 Finn only no refund..... 100% on board with that and I bet everyone else is too!!!

    if CG nerfs Finn in Arena/TW/GA refund the Zetas AND the GEAR!!! People invested in Finn specifically for TW/GA to kill Revans. This was done AFTER CG_Tophat said Finn C3PO interaction was okay, just not in P3. If Finn's level of effectiveness is reduced in TW/GA because a raid fix then YES a REFUND IS DUE.

    Post edited by Line_LeBobcat on
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    In the user agreement, "From time to time, EA may update, change or modify an EA Service, Content or Entitlements, without notice to you...EA may need to update, or reset certain parameters to balance game play and usage of EA Services. These updates or "resets" may cause you setbacks within the relevant game world and may affect characters, games, groups or other Entitlements under your control."

    Doubt this would be legally enforceable in all jurisdictions. Certainly in Europe there are numerous versions of 'unfair terms in consumer contract' regulations that would render this irrelevant across different countries.

    In any case, whether they can or can't do it in specific countries, they're presumably keen on people continuing to play, not rating the game 1*, continuing to spend etc.

    Refund of the zeta as a minimum seems a sensible step for them to take given the scope of changes to the zeta ability and the overwhelming discontent this appears to have awakened.

    The foums are filled with discontent, where would CG start? Lol

    They would start by not ignoring the player base and addressing the discontent as soon as it started. They would start by not waiting for over 1000 comments. They would start by showing up!

    It's like ignoring a small fire until it turns into a raging firestorm and then saying "what could we have done?".
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    What? Why?
    Because the new finn looks interesting and have potential to fix the teams weakness, and he's getting better in every other ways.

    He's my first 7*, first G11 and zeta'd char, I know the team well, and, c3po infinite loop p3 traya is not the reason I zeta'd him, so why would I want refund?
    You don't want the refund? Then go ahead and re-zeta him. Those of us who don't want a broken leader, will not. See, free choice works!
  • mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.

    Go take your Finn against Nest and see what happens. Any team with Nest beats zFinn. Yeah, and zFinn's the problem. For those of us in guilds who are yet to beat HSTR, you have condemned us to defeat in GA/TW or for us to leave our guilds! Yay community building CG style. Just like the studied silence.
    I've never heard of members who actively call for a nerf of a character guess schadenfreude is strong with some...
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.


    That's not what he said, from my understanding. Finn is one of the very few options to run somewhat reliably against Revan.

    I know some people have mentioned it already, but it's never too late to day it again: changing Finn's zeta affects not only his value as a character, but also our entire rosters.

    Resistance currently has 2 GREAT lead options, both very versatile. By changing Finn, the whole faction loses, not to mention other interactions.

    Will CG compensate by reworking some of the Resistance characters and/or adding Resistance tags to the vets? How is 3p0 in Resistance and the vets are not?

    It would be nice to have someone from CG at least saying they are reading and taking into account what is being discussed, before proceeding with the changes, as they have tested.
  • KM1 wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.

    Go take your Finn against Nest and see what happens. Any team with Nest beats zFinn. Yeah, and zFinn's the problem. For those of us in guilds who are yet to beat HSTR, you have condemned us to defeat in GA/TW or for us to leave our guilds! Yay community building CG style. Just like the studied silence.
    I've never heard of members who actively call for a nerf of a character guess schadenfreude is strong with some...

    I'm not calling for a nerf, but I do understand why one was needed. A D to keep with the lore, albeit not a good basis for an argument, there's no way res teams should beat a revan team. To keep with the game, zFinn teams should not be able to beat revan teams or traya teams.

    As for refunds, I have no say in whether a refund is given or not. I'm ok either way.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.


    That's not what he said, from my understanding. Finn is one of the very few options to run somewhat reliably against Revan.

    I know some people have mentioned it already, but it's never too late to day it again: changing Finn's zeta affects not only his value as a character, but also our entire rosters.

    Resistance currently has 2 GREAT lead options, both very versatile. By changing Finn, the whole faction loses, not to mention other interactions.

    Will CG compensate by reworking some of the Resistance characters and/or adding Resistance tags to the vets? How is 3p0 in Resistance and the vets are not?

    It would be nice to have someone from CG at least saying they are reading and taking into account what is being discussed, before proceeding with the changes, as they have tested.

    That's, exactly what he said. zFinn doesn't need a nerf because he can't beat anyone but revan, and he needs zFinn to beat revan.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • Maybe I'm mistaken and zFinn isnt any good. Maybe our guild gets lucky in TW and GA with our zFinn wins, and no one else can replicate our success. If zFinn is so bad to begin with, then nerfing him to the ground shouldn't impact anyone. CG took a bad toon and made him worse, but in the end, no one ran zFinn anyway cause he stinks. Can't have it both ways guys.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • When is this happening? That’s all I really care about. Balancing should be a normal part of the game, and should happen MUCH, MUCH more frequently in my opinion.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    Drago5760 wrote: »
    When is this happening? That’s all I really care about. Balancing should be a normal part of the game, and should happen MUCH, MUCH more frequently in my opinion.
    Drago5760 wrote: »
    When is this happening? That’s all I really care about. Balancing should be a normal part of the game, and should happen MUCH, MUCH more frequently in my opinion.

    Don't worry, they'll nerf (oops 'rework') CLS and Revan soon. Anything to ensure their P2P DR is unchallenged in arena. P2W now.... Yay whales! CG's P2W monstrosity. Maybe they can play with each other!
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.


    That's not what he said, from my understanding. Finn is one of the very few options to run somewhat reliably against Revan.

    I know some people have mentioned it already, but it's never too late to day it again: changing Finn's zeta affects not only his value as a character, but also our entire rosters.

    Resistance currently has 2 GREAT lead options, both very versatile. By changing Finn, the whole faction loses, not to mention other interactions.

    Will CG compensate by reworking some of the Resistance characters and/or adding Resistance tags to the vets? How is 3p0 in Resistance and the vets are not?

    It would be nice to have someone from CG at least saying they are reading and taking into account what is being discussed, before proceeding with the changes, as they have tested.

    That's, exactly what he said. zFinn doesn't need a nerf because he can't beat anyone but revan, and he needs zFinn to beat revan.


    Strictly talking arena, ZFinn cannot beat CLS and NS are too risky to be worth taking a shot at. Nest is a wrecking ball against ZFinn, but he can take on Traya and Revan. You may apply the same rules to GA.

    Leave ZFinn overnight nowadays on arena and see how far you will fall, even if you had climbed all the way to #1.

    As sour as anyone may be about the subject, yes, ZFinn beats Revan, who dominates 88% of all arenas. Why would anyone want a nerf on a team able to beat that?? Perhaps to see how much closer Revan can get to 100%??

    GG rework, in order to beat Revan, takes monumental gear and zeta investment. It is actually a lot easier working on JTR+ 4 droids, who can also beat Revan.

    Anyways, we need more variety in terms of counters - and that goes for all teams, even the meta.
  • I for one, am very excited to try out the new kit in my JTR squads.
  • Feel like it should be said... I for one am excited to try out Finns new kit in my JTR squad. Seems like if he can last long enough, he might be quite the heavy hitter. Sounds fun.
  • Firebrigade
    852 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Feel like it should be said... I for one am excited to try out Finns new kit in my JTR squad. Seems like if he can last long enough, he might be quite the heavy hitter. Sounds fun.

    I’ve never disagreed with this. I am excited to try him out in teams too. My only disagreement is that his lead is no longer the zeta I purchased. Refund it and I am happy as could be.
  • SmurfLAX28
    288 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Feel like it should be said... I for one am excited to try out Finns new kit in my JTR squad. Seems like if he can last long enough, he might be quite the heavy hitter. Sounds fun.

    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion

  • YaeVizsla
    3448 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.
    Still not a he.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.

    So you got caught up with my clear exaggeration of the extent of the nerf.... while ignoring the fact that people are excited to see the new Finn in action as an ally as compared to leader (you know, the zetad ability that is supposedly an improvement)

  • YaeVizsla
    3448 posts Member
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you got caught up with my clear exaggeration of the extent of the nerf.... while ignoring the fact that people are excited to see the new Finn in action as an ally as compared to leader (you know, the zetad ability that is supposedly an improvement)
    The zeta ability rework is explicitly not supposed to be an improvement.

    The current version is quite frankly insane and clearly prone to infinite loops and exploits, which creates a permanent design problem.

    Any step away from, "Infinite loop nearly anything to death," is going to be a downgrade. The new zFinn still looks like one of the stronger leads in the game.

    Yes, people are interested in how Finn will work as an ally. How that will play out is fairly straightforward. How the lead change will go, particularly with regard to the Sith raid, is not nearly so clear, and the question of how to get a working P3 Resistance team going in parallel with a P1 Resistance team is far more complicated than replacing one toon. People are voicing interest in the one that is almost guaranteed to work with little additional thought on the matter.
    Still not a he.
  • KM1 wrote: »
    Drago5760 wrote: »
    When is this happening? That’s all I really care about. Balancing should be a normal part of the game, and should happen MUCH, MUCH more frequently in my opinion.
    Drago5760 wrote: »
    When is this happening? That’s all I really care about. Balancing should be a normal part of the game, and should happen MUCH, MUCH more frequently in my opinion.

    Don't worry, they'll nerf (oops 'rework') CLS and Revan soon. Anything to ensure their P2P DR is unchallenged in arena. P2W now.... Yay whales! CG's P2W monstrosity. Maybe they can play with each other!

    I think revan by now is ftp. But don't let that fact discourage your feedback.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.

    But again, not the lead I bought with my zeta mats. Let me make that decision. Because I don’t believe as you do that it’s going to be that strong. It doesn’t look like a zeta I would have prioritized given my goals and teams.

    I don’t know where you’re pulling that 100% TM swing from. Max effect is resistance allies +15% TM and single target -25%, for a net swing of 40% vs one target, IF the removal hits. That’s opposed to 35% swing versus all targets previously. Are you trying to pull some funky math and account for everyone’s TM gain to get a 75% gain/25% removal? If so, then the full apples to apples comparison would be to a 175% Tm swing under current lead, so we’re looking at a 43% reduction. And that’s versus ALL targets, not a single, for an added benefit that we’re losing.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Just guve toppled Traya x% TM per hit when toppled. Is that so difficult?

    I've heard similar ideas from the community. While that may fix the HSR, it's my opinion the Finn issue went beyond the raid. This opinion I think is alluded to in here, "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch". The catch here is CG believed Finn outperformed their design intentions with the release of 3po. The 35% tm gain on popping an expose made zFinn led teams op and with good strategy able to beat any meta. I perceive it also hampers any future meta which should allow for some power creep that Finn's leadership prevented, or program every new meta with some sort of Finn counter in every kit which as complicated as it is could easily have been done. The idea that finn should outperform all future metas is really unrealistic of the community. I think what sent the community sideways was official statements allude to zFinn change "because" of the raid. I believe the settled approach to zFinn lead was to fix Finn more broadly than just the raid.

    The statement was, indeed, disastrous. I agree with almost everything else you stated.

    If ZFinn is really outperforming his original - he arguably is - he would become an issue also outside of the raids. I don't see him as an issue outside of the one raid, since he is a niche character and they considered him his loop OK to beat the other raids.

    It seems they really care about that monstruosity called HSTR more than anything.

    Phoenixeon wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dear CG_intern #2,
    Stop.

    Just stop.

    Stop dismissing people who disagree with you as bloody NPCs and shills.

    We just disagree with you.

    How in the world can anyone possibly disagree with a zeta refund or compensation in this matter is beyond me.

    If you are going to change a character's core mechanics, refund all zetas and omegas involved and let the players decide how they would rather spend those resources.

    I think the current ZFinn is awesome, because, with the right companions, it beats almost anything. CG thinks the newer one is just as great, because on a full resistance team it beats Kenobi and maybe KRU lead! Well, let us players be the judges of that.

    Finn's zeta is still one of the most popular ones in this game, present in over 80% of all Finns g11 and above. He's still on the top 15, after all this time and so many newer and more powerful metas after him.

    Finn and poe reworked first time when they introduced zeta...and yes, their core mechanics changed.
    I see no one asking a refund of omega at that time?

    You do understand not everyone has been playing this game since 2015, right? Even if they had refunded, would there be any loss to the players? Or even to the game? We would all reinvest those omegas, at one point or another. It's not like "if you keep 100 omegas, you get 5% interest rate overnight".

    Are you personally against the general idea of refunding the resourses invested when a character has deep changes to his core mechanics?

    @mvmss @ImYourHuckleberry I agree the catch is the part about Finn exceeding where Finn was in the Meta when they say "We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch".

    So a Finn team improved with the addition of the new unit - C3PO, hence Finn Exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO launch. Okay, why is this bad??? Look at C3PO's kit. Lots of teams exceed where they were in the meta prior to C3PO launch (Resistance, ewoks, rebels, etc.).

    Teams/Units exceeding where they were prior to C3PO launch is the whole point of bringing a new character (C3PO) into the game in the first place, right? Anytime a new character is released many other teams & characters get improved - this is normal, but the CGTopHat quote makes it sound like C3PO improving Finn was a unintended bug, CG wanted to release C3PO however CG didn't want Finn to improve. That's basically what TopHat's statement means. Its giving players the reason behind why CG is Nerfing Finn Lead back to a level where Finn can beat the teams Finn used to be able to beat (GK/KRU).

    Also, saying Finn can beat any meta or any future meta is very disingenuous because Finn can't even beat a CURRENT CLS meta or Nightsister Meta. In fact there's several CURRENT teams that Finn CAN NOT BEAT, yes Finn offensive player loses to AI controlled well modded CLS 9/10 times... Anyone saying Finn can beat any present and future meta factually lying to create some proof that what they are saying is true.

    Look in the top 50 how many Finn teams are there? 0, 1 maybe? Can we all just be honest Finn isn't META at all.

    The Finn team also doesn't work unless you have 100%+, ideally 125%+ potency which requires special mods that aren't useful anywhere else in the game.

    Finn C3PO is not easy to build and it is not meta. However it IS counter to Revan, and it IS a way to Solo P3 of sith and the whole HAAT. CG is on record saying Finn clearing the HAAT is okay. Months later they have a rework for Finn that is a heavy nerf.

    What does all this mean? It means that CG didn't want Finn to beat Revan!!!!!! CG didn't want Finn to SOLO P3 Sith Raid.

    The only way to fix both of those issues is nerfing Finn into dirt!

    There is an definitive trend of characters being Nerfed/reworked/fixed after those players who unlocked, either by event or paying for shards, have already used the now not wai units to benefit. Usually 2-3 months. This goes back to 2016 Vader in Sith Raid, ZBariss timeout teams, the Chaze meta disappeared right when Chaze became farmable, Rey was great until she came back,etc. etc.

    If CG would just say this is how we release stuff (its superpowered for first 2-3 months) people would expect it. Instead there is always a story that doesn't make sense logically (In this case the story is somehow Finn is now a OP META team that no future releases can beat and just ignore the fact there are no Finns in the meta report, lmfao), to troll their own forums. They could easily fix him in Sith raid, but that wont address the real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW

    Real problem = Finn Counters Revan in GA/TW.

    Finn's only good vs Revan? That got a big chuckle out of me.


    That's not what he said, from my understanding. Finn is one of the very few options to run somewhat reliably against Revan.

    I know some people have mentioned it already, but it's never too late to day it again: changing Finn's zeta affects not only his value as a character, but also our entire rosters.

    Resistance currently has 2 GREAT lead options, both very versatile. By changing Finn, the whole faction loses, not to mention other interactions.

    Will CG compensate by reworking some of the Resistance characters and/or adding Resistance tags to the vets? How is 3p0 in Resistance and the vets are not?

    It would be nice to have someone from CG at least saying they are reading and taking into account what is being discussed, before proceeding with the changes, as they have tested.

    That's, exactly what he said. zFinn doesn't need a nerf because he can't beat anyone but revan, and he needs zFinn to beat revan.


    Strictly talking arena, ZFinn cannot beat CLS and NS are too risky to be worth taking a shot at. Nest is a wrecking ball against ZFinn, but he can take on Traya and Revan. You may apply the same rules to GA.

    Leave ZFinn overnight nowadays on arena and see how far you will fall, even if you had climbed all the way to #1.

    As sour as anyone may be about the subject, yes, ZFinn beats Revan, who dominates 88% of all arenas. Why would anyone want a nerf on a team able to beat that?? Perhaps to see how much closer Revan can get to 100%??

    GG rework, in order to beat Revan, takes monumental gear and zeta investment. It is actually a lot easier working on JTR+ 4 droids, who can also beat Revan.

    Anyways, we need more variety in terms of counters - and that goes for all teams, even the meta.

    I think what's missing here is the design hurdle new toons entering the game have to overcome because of zFinn 35% tm gain. I dislike nerfs in general, and wouldn't have changed zFinn, but I don't begrudge CG from balancing future toon needs and resetting a 2-3 year old toon in order to better control future power creep. And as to power creep, zFinn shouldn't be so useful now after 2 years because of the natural necessary power creep needed to maintain the game.

    I personally can use zFinn to beat a lot of teams, but I never said he can beat all the teams. That doesn't mean zFinn isn't exceeding designed limits with the release of 3po, which needed to be addressed.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • OP says:
    In December we announced our intention to act upon an unintended interaction involving zFinn and C-3PO that allowed players to auto Phase 3 of the Heroic Sith Triumvirate raid (along with phases in other raids) by leveraging what is functionally an infinite loop. As has been a long-standing policy of ours, when we discover infinite loops we take action on them.

    CG claims to NEED to fix Finn because his unintended interaction in P3 Sith, but wait what is happening to CLS + C3PO lead?

    l0npuglteuhy.png


    If Finn lead is Nerfed, and CLS lead stays untouched, then it is 100% crystal clear that this nerf to Finn was done to prevent Finn from beating any Revans.

    Do what you are going to do CG, but at least be honest about the reason - this nerf has nothing to do with P3 Sith, it has everything to do with stopping Finn from beating Revan in Arena. If protecting P3 is truly the goal CLS lead would also need a re-work since C3PO + CLS allows a full solo of p3 on Heroic.


    When comparing the P3 solo teams,
    - CLS 3PO needs No potency and low abilities. This team rewards people for NOT investing into their characters.
    - Finn 3PO needs 120%+ potency, and maxed abilities. This team rewards people for investing into their characters.

    Why CG would nerf the team that requires great mods to function, while leaving the team that performs better if undergeared and less than max abilities?
    This makes absolutely no sense regardless if Finn is better or worse with his new kit or if CG refunds Zetas or not, the problem C3PO allowing P3 Sith Solo runs still exists with or without zFinn.

    #LOGIC
  • Ravens1113
    5215 posts Member
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.

    But again, not the lead I bought with my zeta mats. Let me make that decision. Because I don’t believe as you do that it’s going to be that strong. It doesn’t look like a zeta I would have prioritized given my goals and teams.

    I don’t know where you’re pulling that 100% TM swing from. Max effect is resistance allies +15% TM and single target -25%, for a net swing of 40% vs one target, IF the removal hits. That’s opposed to 35% swing versus all targets previously. Are you trying to pull some funky math and account for everyone’s TM gain to get a 75% gain/25% removal? If so, then the full apples to apples comparison would be to a 175% Tm swing under current lead, so we’re looking at a 43% reduction. And that’s versus ALL targets, not a single, for an added benefit that we’re losing.

    Don’t waste your time with Vizsla. No matter what data, stats or common customer service examples your bring to him he will only focus on what can be twisted to fit an apologetic narrative for CG.

    Everyone here besides him so far I’ve seen agrees the zeta for his lead should be refunded. It’s mixed as far as how his new kit will be and those that either are excited, curious or flat out hate the rework. However I’ve seen only him say that we don’t deserve a refund on the materials even though the lead and ability are being completely changed from what we invested in.

    Hey @YaeVizsla while I have your attention, wanna come up with an excuse why the devs have failed to live up to their promise of having Q&A sessions with the community about happenings in the game? How about why they haven’t come up with a replacement for the monthly crystal subscription that they abruptly ended. They did promise to give us something to replace it but...you know nothing in over a year.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    So you want to try him out as an ally and not a leader, even though you used the zeta on his leader? That shows exactly why people are complaining that his kit was reworked but his zeta was nerfed to oblivion
    If believe his lead is being "nerfed into oblivion," you have no perspective.

    No, it won't be able to infinite loop Revan into the ground. But the new lead is still looking to be one of the stronger manually-controlled leads in the game. 100% TM swing per bubble popped with cooldown reduction and +60% to three key stats is a big deal. There are a lot of relevant teams that can fare well against.

    Using Finn in P1 hSith is a valid thought. It is not, however, the only use for Finn.

    But again, not the lead I bought with my zeta mats. Let me make that decision. Because I don’t believe as you do that it’s going to be that strong. It doesn’t look like a zeta I would have prioritized given my goals and teams.

    I don’t know where you’re pulling that 100% TM swing from. Max effect is resistance allies +15% TM and single target -25%, for a net swing of 40% vs one target, IF the removal hits. That’s opposed to 35% swing versus all targets previously. Are you trying to pull some funky math and account for everyone’s TM gain to get a 75% gain/25% removal? If so, then the full apples to apples comparison would be to a 175% Tm swing under current lead, so we’re looking at a 43% reduction. And that’s versus ALL targets, not a single, for an added benefit that we’re losing.

    Don’t waste your time with Vizsla. No matter what data, stats or common customer service examples your bring to him he will only focus on what can be twisted to fit an apologetic narrative for CG.

    Everyone here besides him so far I’ve seen agrees the zeta for his lead should be refunded. It’s mixed as far as how his new kit will be and those that either are excited, curious or flat out hate the rework. However I’ve seen only him say that we don’t deserve a refund on the materials even though the lead and ability are being completely changed from what we invested in.

    Hey YaeVizsla while I have your attention, wanna come up with an excuse why the devs have failed to live up to their promise of having Q&A sessions with the community about happenings in the game? How about why they haven’t come up with a replacement for the monthly crystal subscription that they abruptly ended. They did promise to give us something to replace it but...you know nothing in over a year.

    Just an FYI, they cant replace it with anything similar due to partner agreements that a "subscription" like that would violate. Not to say they are not looking at alternatives, but it's not that easy.

    Also, I see no reason they shouldnt refund the lead zeta. They stated for Zarriss they did the refund due to changing the description of the zeta to match the actions they were changing in game. I would think this also follows that same line of reasoning.
  • YaeVizsla
    3448 posts Member
    Ravens1113 wrote: »
    Don’t waste your time with Vizsla. No matter what data, stats or common customer service examples your bring to him he will only focus on what can be twisted to fit an apologetic narrative for CG.

    Everyone here besides him so far I’ve seen agrees the zeta for his lead should be refunded. It’s mixed as far as how his new kit will be and those that either are excited, curious or flat out hate the rework. However I’ve seen only him say that we don’t deserve a refund on the materials even though the lead and ability are being completely changed from what we invested in.

    Hey YaeVizsla while I have your attention, wanna come up with an excuse why the devs have failed to live up to their promise of having Q&A sessions with the community about happenings in the game? How about why they haven’t come up with a replacement for the monthly crystal subscription that they abruptly ended. They did promise to give us something to replace it but...you know nothing in over a year.
    I am not a "him," and it is rude to presume online.

    And if that is what you believe that is my opinion on the refund, and that I am alone in holding it, then you are not paying attention.

    I have made little comment on the refund. And I certainly have not said that they should not do it. But they are under no compulsion- legal or moral- to do so. And I am one of several to voice that opinion in this thread.

    Most of my discussion in this thread is on the necessity of the rework based on the inherent brokenness of the current version, that the lead still has value if it doesn't infinite loop Revan to death, and that the new lead still looks formidable.

    As to your other question, there are no excuses required. They made no promises. They stated their plans at the time. Plans change. You are free to be annoyed, but no promise was broken.
    Still not a he.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Also, I see no reason they shouldnt refund the lead zeta. They stated for Zarriss they did the refund due to changing the description of the zeta to match the actions they were changing in game. I would think this also follows that same line of reasoning.

    This exactly, as well as the Daka refund. Which is why I find it so confusing that they would point blank state that they do not intend to refund the zeta when they posted the changes. One, it doesn’t fit precedent, two, why not leave the door open and evaluate the feedback. I hope that’s what they’re doing, but it wasn’t how it was phrased in the initial post.
  • SmurfLAX28
    288 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Kyno wrote: »
    Also, I see no reason they shouldnt refund the lead zeta. They stated for Zarriss they did the refund due to changing the description of the zeta to match the actions they were changing in game. I would think this also follows that same line of reasoning.

    This exactly, as well as the Daka refund. Which is why I find it so confusing that they would point blank state that they do not intend to refund the zeta when they posted the changes. One, it doesn’t fit precedent, two, why not leave the door open and evaluate the feedback. I hope that’s what they’re doing, but it wasn’t how it was phrased in the initial post.

    They're obviously going to just throw something along the lines of "after listening to feedback, we've decided to re-evaluate the zeta refund policy for Finn and have decided it's in everyone's best interest to have their zeta materials back and decide for themself if they want to take advantage of the new abilities we have given Finn's leadership ability"

    They want to make themselves look like the good guy in all this and finally deflect some of their atrocious PR to one good thing they have done recently


    ....Or they know that they will eventually have to implement new reworks as new power creeped toons come out where more nerfs will be necessary and want to completely change the precedent to not allowing refunds

  • Gorem
    1190 posts Member
    Honestly, I do love how 30+ pages of this thread would not exist if the OP ended with "We will be refunding the mat's needed to zeta finn so that you can decide if you want to keep this change or not, since we've done this in the past for lesser reasons". It is like the devs like playing with us on here :p

    Finn and Refund went up the hill To fetch a pail of water; Finn fell down and broke his crown, And Refund came tumbling after. :D
This discussion has been closed.