Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    CG_SBCrumb wrote: »
    We do read all this feedback or at least I do and collate it for the team to review. You folks are very prolific haha. Unfortunately I don't have any exciting news as the fix is still in testing. This has been a constant topic around the office since it occurred so don't worry that we have forgotten.

    Tophat or myself will give everyone an update when we have finalized the changes and I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'm asking the team to finish putting together a more comprehensive post around how we discuss reworks and what our policy is regarding refunds when doing said reworks or changes/nerfs/buffs/etc to a character.

    Well now I feel really conflicted. I had said that I'd keep posting daily for the injustice that Finn was undergoing. That a total redesign warranted a Zeta refund, and now we here news of continued testing and a more comprehensive guide that will actually explain things given to us. Like, this was all many were asking for, some communication. But now, its all up in the air because now does this actually mean we are getting the refund? This is phrased so much better then the statement at the end of the OP which was basically edging us all on.

    So I guess, I'll stop my fun random posts until we get more word on this :D Again I say, Thank you Crumb.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    CG_SBCrumb wrote: »
    We do read all this feedback or at least I do and collate it for the team to review. You folks are very prolific haha. Unfortunately I don't have any exciting news as the fix is still in testing. This has been a constant topic around the office since it occurred so don't worry that we have forgotten.

    Tophat or myself will give everyone an update when we have finalized the changes and I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'm asking the team to finish putting together a more comprehensive post around how we discuss reworks and what our policy is regarding refunds when doing said reworks or changes/nerfs/buffs/etc to a character.

    It's great to see you at last. Thank you for listening. We live in hope that you rethink the rework: its necessity, scale, scope, etc.
    Post edited by KM1 on
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Gorem wrote: »
    CG_SBCrumb wrote: »
    We do read all this feedback or at least I do and collate it for the team to review. You folks are very prolific haha. Unfortunately I don't have any exciting news as the fix is still in testing. This has been a constant topic around the office since it occurred so don't worry that we have forgotten.

    Tophat or myself will give everyone an update when we have finalized the changes and I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'm asking the team to finish putting together a more comprehensive post around how we discuss reworks and what our policy is regarding refunds when doing said reworks or changes/nerfs/buffs/etc to a character.

    Well now I feel really conflicted. I had said that I'd keep posting daily for the injustice that Finn was undergoing. That a total redesign warranted a Zeta refund, and now we here news of continued testing and a more comprehensive guide that will actually explain things given to us. Like, this was all many were asking for, some communication. But now, its all up in the air because now does this actually mean we are getting the refund? This is phrased so much better then the statement at the end of the OP which was basically edging us all on.

    So I guess, I'll stop my fun random posts until we get more word on this :D Again I say, Thank you Crumb.

    From what we were told, all they can say is to echo Carrie's statement that it is always a consideration to refund the zeta.
  • StarSon
    6157 posts Member
    Madlax wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    This one is easy. Currently zFinn can easily enter an infinite loop in any game mode, including arena. While this lets that team beat Revan on offense, it also can use the same mechanic on defense. As a result, they would need to build every new OP character with bonus turn mechanics or anti-expose mechanics to shut this down. By changing Finn they leave him viable in all game modes without allowing the infinite loop anywhere.

    Oh cmon thats a weak argument..how many of these overpowered infinite-looping zFinn teams do you see in the arena top10? top50? top100? top200? Thats right, zero. Zero among 196 Revans in the top200....

    Well, you don’t know how many are in the top 200, since we can only see the top 50. But before JKR’s return we had several in our top 20.
  • G20
    132 posts Member
    The delay in the Finn rework is because CG is too busy with Darth Revans mechanics.
  • HarryTDF
    417 posts Member
    I bet the “testing” will be done right after 3po event ends.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    👀

    Seems to have calmed down quite a bit in here.
  • Just a quick thought on this: while I understand the need to make changes/nerf loops in the raid, I’m not a fan of completely changing a characters kit, especially a character that has been in-game for quite sometime now. I am curious what the community thinks of this alternative and ask CG if this could be considered:
    An alternative i see for situations like this that maybe would have a slightly more positive acceptance in the community is nerf/change these characters in the raid itself. Similar to how certain toons or factions get bonuses in raids, such as GMY or CLS what about negative effects to specific toons or factions? An example of this for Finn would be to have a negative bonus/effect that reads: While Finn is present, all toons have negative xx% potency.
    The reason I think this route is better than changing a character interaction is better is because that character’s interactions in other modes are unchanged and it would also resolve the loops in raids. Let me know what you all think of this approach.
  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    G20 wrote: »
    The delay in the Finn rework is because CG is too busy with Darth Revans mechanics.

    here is the real reason for Finn rework as well as other delays

    https://twitter.com/cgouskos?lang=en

    ..... lol
  • Gorem wrote: »
    G20 wrote: »
    The delay in the Finn rework is because CG is too busy with Darth Revans mechanics.

    here is the real reason for Finn rework as well as other delays

    https://twitter.com/cgouskos?lang=en

    ..... lol

    Staying in character for this thread...

    Just LEEEEEAVE IT, leave it, LEEEEEAVE IT, leave it
    No one wants Finn defeated
    Tell us that golden rod, is working all right
    We already waited, 3 week for a reply
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it oooo
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.
  • CosmicJ
    348 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Gorem wrote: »
    CG_SBCrumb wrote: »
    We do read all this feedback or at least I do and collate it for the team to review. You folks are very prolific haha. Unfortunately I don't have any exciting news as the fix is still in testing. This has been a constant topic around the office since it occurred so don't worry that we have forgotten.

    Tophat or myself will give everyone an update when we have finalized the changes and I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'm asking the team to finish putting together a more comprehensive post around how we discuss reworks and what our policy is regarding refunds when doing said reworks or changes/nerfs/buffs/etc to a character.

    Well now I feel really conflicted. I had said that I'd keep posting daily for the injustice that Finn was undergoing. That a total redesign warranted a Zeta refund, and now we here news of continued testing and a more comprehensive guide that will actually explain things given to us. Like, this was all many were asking for, some communication. But now, its all up in the air because now does this actually mean we are getting the refund? This is phrased so much better then the statement at the end of the OP which was basically edging us all on.

    So I guess, I'll stop my fun random posts until we get more word on this :D Again I say, Thank you Crumb.

    From what we were told, all they can say is to echo Carrie's statement that it is always a consideration to refund the zeta.

    This would be a good way to do it though. Then if, to the communities shock, the rework is actually good (i can see it working in GA/TW) we can all kick ourselves for redistributing it into... i dunno... hk? :)
  • Madlax
    119 posts Member
    StarSon wrote: »
    Madlax wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    This one is easy. Currently zFinn can easily enter an infinite loop in any game mode, including arena. While this lets that team beat Revan on offense, it also can use the same mechanic on defense. As a result, they would need to build every new OP character with bonus turn mechanics or anti-expose mechanics to shut this down. By changing Finn they leave him viable in all game modes without allowing the infinite loop anywhere.

    Oh cmon thats a weak argument..how many of these overpowered infinite-looping zFinn teams do you see in the arena top10? top50? top100? top200? Thats right, zero. Zero among 196 Revans in the top200....

    Well, you don’t know how many are in the top 200, since we can only see the top 50. But before JKR’s return we had several in our top 20.

    Yes I can.. as I regularly drop out of the top 50 till 160-190 over night. Thats just how stupid Revan vs Revan is.
    And in the top 200 of my shard theres only a sea of Revan.
  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    Gorem wrote: »
    G20 wrote: »
    The delay in the Finn rework is because CG is too busy with Darth Revans mechanics.

    here is the real reason for Finn rework as well as other delays

    https://twitter.com/cgouskos?lang=en

    ..... lol

    Staying in character for this thread...

    Just LEEEEEAVE IT, leave it, LEEEEEAVE IT, leave it
    No one wants Finn defeated
    Tell us that golden rod, is working all right
    We already waited, 3 week for a reply
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it
    just leave it, leave it oooo

    Ah, good times :)
  • mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • By the way, show me one instance on these forums where CG team ever responded to uncivility. If that ever garnered a response it probably was most likely a warning.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.

    I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I'm not a native English speaker, as you might have noticed.

    I said all it took was a simple and clear answer that CG is still looking into finding a solution, that the opinions expressed here are, at the very least, being read and the fallout ended. Or haven't you noticed?

    By the way, when you go to McDonalds and they give you your order is not because they are "benevolent". It's just their job. They get paid for it, you know.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.


    If someone punches you in the face, I see no problem with punching them back in the face.

    If someone treats you dishonourably, I see no reason why you should continue treating them in a civil fashion.

    While someone acting in a certain way doesn't force you to pick a certain manner of treating them in response, manners that were previously unacceptable in treating them now become acceptable.

    And if you still disagree, take this argument to the extreme and ask if you should treat someone that attempts to murder a loved one with the same level of civility as a close friend who has donated a kidney for you.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.

    I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I'm not a native English speaker, as you might have noticed.

    I said all it took was a simple and clear answer that CG is still looking into finding a solution, that the opinions expressed here are, at the very least, being read and the fallout ended. Or haven't you noticed?

    By the way, when you go to McDonalds and they give you your order is not because they are "benevolent". It's just their job. They get paid for it, you know.

    And when you go to McDonald's and speak the way some have spoken here to the teller, or just in general to the staff, people dont generally say "it's ok, he has been waiting for his food for a while". They would think it was rude, and maybe they wouldnt step in, but they wouldnt condone it.

    My point has been, if we as a collective kept that (or worked towards that)attitude here, maybe we could raise things up a little bit on our end.
    They didnt comment because of the attitude here, they did comment because it is their job, the issue here is that people seem to want to make judgements about the situation that are not true.

    They do read the comments.
    They will respond, it may not be on your timetable, and that's ok.
    The number of pages doesnt matter.
    They do consider changes to what they have stated, no they may not be able to say that as early as you would like.

    These things (and others) are always true, despite what anyone wants to think. Maybe we can all just remember that moving forward.
  • mvmss wrote: »
    mvmss wrote: »
    Well, it seems that, contrary to what some were defending here, after ONE brief, but informative and suffient reply from CG, there seems to be a much more civilized behavior on everyone's end, doesn't it?

    It takes 2 to tango outside of the choir room. If you often give the other cheek around (aka, being civil and polite even when you are being ignored or disrespected), you are risking getting a second haymaker to your face. Sad real life truth is one has to be rude, from time to time, to get things going.

    Anyways, I am still using Finn on arena, not because I don't have Revan or can't win with him. Simply because of how Finn makes Revan go down fast and batrles don't time out. Ever. Finn is great.

    If CG has determined that Finn must change for the game to keep evolving, I stongly suggest adopting the policy of refunding at least the top end materials to the players - and that goes for every future rework.

    Is a policy like that is implemented, it will show a greater respect for the player base (consumers), who will have the choice of reinvesting the omegas and zetas however they see fit. If refunding gets too complicated to implement (I am an ape, when it comes to coding), than a compensation would also be respectful.

    Obviously, it will not make everyone happy, whichever path is chosen, but sometimes it comes down to minimizing damage.

    Not sure what you're saying, That it's OK to act immature if it gets what you want. Doesn't change my point that you're still responsible for your own behavior and not CG. Repeating your ideas over and over doesn't move responsibility to CG dev team. I think CG team was benevolent here not because of the forums rashness, but despite the forums rashness.

    I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I'm not a native English speaker, as you might have noticed.

    I said all it took was a simple and clear answer that CG is still looking into finding a solution, that the opinions expressed here are, at the very least, being read and the fallout ended. Or haven't you noticed?

    By the way, when you go to McDonalds and they give you your order is not because they are "benevolent". It's just their job. They get paid for it, you know.

    Any correlation that CG team even responded to the "fallout" is incorrect. The team to me has made it clear that they won't respond to "fallout". And why should they? If you are looking for any type of communication, it would definitely go better by remaining civil and avoid being snarky, avoid "fallout". The forums have a reputation, an unfortunate reputation. Doesn't that matter to you?
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • I think what he’s trying to say is- when the player base gets some info from the devs that the rage dies down. Which makes things more civil.

    No matter what it is- if we are truly looking to make this a better place it takes all of us, devs included to fix it.

    Yea the forums can be a dumpster fire and snarky as hell but there has clearly been a lack of communication for a long time here.

    This game is built to make you just frustrated enough to say f it. I’ll buy some purp to make me less frustrated. That resonates here.

    If we are to change the culture here we need to change it from the roots up not just snipping the bud and expect it not to come up again
  • I think what he’s trying to say is- when the player base gets some info from the devs that the rage dies down. Which makes things more civil.

    No matter what it is- if we are truly looking to make this a better place it takes all of us, devs included to fix it.

    Yea the forums can be a dumpster fire and snarky as hell but there has clearly been a lack of communication for a long time here.

    This game is built to make you just frustrated enough to say f it. I’ll buy some purp to make me less frustrated. That resonates here.

    If we are to change the culture here we need to change it from the roots up not just snipping the bud and expect it not to come up again

    I am one insignificant person on the vast web, but I have a goal is to help facilitate a better experience for everyone on the forum; therefore my persistence in dialoguing about this issue.

    I think there needs to be a bit of soul searching IMHO. Communication by the devs and snarky behavior are 2 completely separate things. I understand your need to 'blame' CG team for 'your' (generic pronoun) snarky behavior, but my point is you can't. The forum has only itself to blame for snarky uncivilized behavior.

    It's a challenge to the forums to be more creative in their response to get their frustration expressed. I am not saying don't be emotional, don't be mad, don't be angry, don't be human.

    I am saying don't make it personal, don't be mean, remember we're all human, and we all love this game, we're all in this together. We're not enemies.

    Again, please accept my challenge to push yourselves to be creative in your responses expressing your frustration.

    Now the forums are complex, and it is not one size fits all. So if the shoe fits, wear it as they say. If not, then let my challenge reaffirm the goodwill of humanity.

    I believe in people, and because I do, I challenge people to believe in themselves. That's all.

    Ps. Life is not black & white. It's is gray. I'll I speak in absolutes, reality is not so clean cut.

    Cheers!
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    I think what he’s trying to say is- when the player base gets some info from the devs that the rage dies down. Which makes things more civil.

    No matter what it is- if we are truly looking to make this a better place it takes all of us, devs included to fix it.

    Yea the forums can be a dumpster fire and snarky as hell but there has clearly been a lack of communication for a long time here.

    This game is built to make you just frustrated enough to say f it. I’ll buy some purp to make me less frustrated. That resonates here.

    If we are to change the culture here we need to change it from the roots up not just snipping the bud and expect it not to come up again

    The roots are the community.

    It's a game, and they have stated they do many of the things people are asking for, but because they dont say every time, within the timeframe that someone projects "we are listening", the consensus seems to be "rage because they are not listening".

    If someone else's actions can make you do something against "your better judgement ", maybe it's time to step back take a deep breath and gain some perspective on the situation.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I think what he’s trying to say is- when the player base gets some info from the devs that the rage dies down. Which makes things more civil.

    No matter what it is- if we are truly looking to make this a better place it takes all of us, devs included to fix it.

    Yea the forums can be a dumpster fire and snarky as hell but there has clearly been a lack of communication for a long time here.

    This game is built to make you just frustrated enough to say f it. I’ll buy some purp to make me less frustrated. That resonates here.

    If we are to change the culture here we need to change it from the roots up not just snipping the bud and expect it not to come up again

    The roots are the community.

    It's a game, and they have stated they do many of the things people are asking for, but because they dont say every time, within the timeframe that someone projects "we are listening", the consensus seems to be "rage because they are not listening".

    If someone else's actions can make you do something against "your better judgement ", maybe it's time to step back take a deep breath and gain some perspective on the situation.

    If they don't want feedback, they shouldn't ask for it.
    "It doesn't appear anyone is listening" is feedback, irrespective of your thoughts on its validity.

    I don't see anything wrong with saying, "It doesn't appear anyone is listening".
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
This discussion has been closed.