Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • Woodroward wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    I don’t see why we wouldn’t get a refund now. They are refunding ability mats for hk lead because it is drastically changed. How was zfinn not drastically changed in the previous nerf details. Should of been an automatic “we are going to refund the ability mats for Finn”. At this point I think they should give everyone an extra zeta and take us out for beers for the grief they have caused.

    It's an open item, depending on where CG team finally settles on Finn's rework, after their initial proposal caused more problems. At this point, we can only wait and see; however, the community's responses to not having Finn's lead zeta refunded may no longer be an issue.

    FIFY

    Look, you're a nice guy @Woodroward . But you did not fix my comment. I already qualified my last sentence with "At this time". Your change actually makes the sentence incorrect. At this time the refund is not an issue. Everything has been rolled back - there is no "MAY" about it. A new decision will be made once the new proposal is understood.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • HarryTDF
    417 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    I don’t see why we wouldn’t get a refund now. They are refunding ability mats for hk lead because it is drastically changed. How was zfinn not drastically changed in the previous nerf details. Should of been an automatic “we are going to refund the ability mats for Finn”. At this point I think they should give everyone an extra zeta and take us out for beers for the grief they have caused.

    It's an open item, depending on where CG team finally settles on Finn's rework, after their initial proposal caused more problems. At this point, we can only wait and see; however, the community's responses to not having Finn's lead zeta refunded is no longer an issue.

    Don’t remember asking for a response. I’m fully aware of all the circumstances but thanks.
  • HarryTDF wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    I don’t see why we wouldn’t get a refund now. They are refunding ability mats for hk lead because it is drastically changed. How was zfinn not drastically changed in the previous nerf details. Should of been an automatic “we are going to refund the ability mats for Finn”. At this point I think they should give everyone an extra zeta and take us out for beers for the grief they have caused.

    It's an open item, depending on where CG team finally settles on Finn's rework, after their initial proposal caused more problems. At this point, we can only wait and see; however, the community's responses to not having Finn's lead zeta refunded is no longer an issue.

    Don’t remember asking for a response. I’m fully aware of all the circumstances but thanks.

    .
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • Is there a way they can just make him ineligible for the Sith raid? Besides the P3 3PO cheese he's not part of any decent squad. This would keep his zeta intact and save the headache of a rework and refunds.
  • Suprème_Lèader_Tsao
    120 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    schrodog wrote: »
    Is there a way they can just make him ineligible for the Sith raid? Besides the P3 3PO cheese he's not part of any decent squad. This would keep his zeta intact and save the headache of a rework and refunds.

    You mean a character ban? Well, we’re in for another 50 pages on this thread.

    They’ve got two contradicting forces at play here: (1) They want new characters to be crazy powerful so people spend money, and (2) They want the Sith Raid to continue to be a challenge. Keeping both of these principles in place won’t work.

    Let it go, CG. The Sith Raid is about a year old, which is an eternity in this game. Time for a new raid... Like I said: Pick a Death Star, and we’ll blow it up.
  • B0baf3tt wrote: »
    I knew his kit looked game breaking in P1. Sad I never got to try it. Good job CG for properly play testing and catching the issue ahead of time.

    I knew we would be able to do a ton of damage. But I’ll admit I don’t see an actual infinite loop. Now it’s driving me crazy that I’m missing it. Anyone know what the loop was?

    Probably the TM reduction to DN and gain to resistance, coupled with RJT and RT?

    You could make a bizarro team with the updated zFinn, RJT, C-3P0, BB-8 and an undergeared/unmodded Stormtrooper.

    The Stormtrooper has unresistable expose and RJT has unresistable TM removal, and 3P0 can call the Stormtrooper in his swarm attack. Actually, this might currently work - will try it. Lol.
  • Woodroward
    3742 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Woodroward wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    I don’t see why we wouldn’t get a refund now. They are refunding ability mats for hk lead because it is drastically changed. How was zfinn not drastically changed in the previous nerf details. Should of been an automatic “we are going to refund the ability mats for Finn”. At this point I think they should give everyone an extra zeta and take us out for beers for the grief they have caused.

    It's an open item, depending on where CG team finally settles on Finn's rework, after their initial proposal caused more problems. At this point, we can only wait and see; however, the community's responses to not having Finn's lead zeta refunded may no longer be an issue.

    FIFY

    Look, you're a nice guy @Woodroward . But you did not fix my comment. I already qualified my last sentence with "At this time". Your change actually makes the sentence incorrect. At this time the refund is not an issue. Everything has been rolled back - there is no "MAY" about it. A new decision will be made once the new proposal is understood.

    I DID fix your comment. We don't KNOW if it will be an issue or not at this time, so at this time it MAY no longer be an issue. Can't say it isn't an issue anymore unless they've announce for sure they are GOING to refund. Don't know means may, not is. Use of the phrase "at this time" doesn't denote uncertainty, just that things are different now than at previous or future times. The may denotes uncertainty, which is where we are at this time, so was necessary.
  • ImYourHuckleberry
    1421 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Woodroward wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    I don’t see why we wouldn’t get a refund now. They are refunding ability mats for hk lead because it is drastically changed. How was zfinn not drastically changed in the previous nerf details. Should of been an automatic “we are going to refund the ability mats for Finn”. At this point I think they should give everyone an extra zeta and take us out for beers for the grief they have caused.

    It's an open item, depending on where CG team finally settles on Finn's rework, after their initial proposal caused more problems. At this point, we can only wait and see; however, the community's responses to not having Finn's lead zeta refunded may no longer be an issue.

    FIFY

    Look, you're a nice guy @Woodroward . But you did not fix my comment. I already qualified my last sentence with "At this time". Your change actually makes the sentence incorrect. At this time the refund is not an issue. Everything has been rolled back - there is no "MAY" about it. A new decision will be made once the new proposal is understood.

    I DID fix your comment. We don't KNOW if it will be an issue or not at this time, so at this time it MAY no longer be an issue. Can't say it isn't an issue anymore unless they've announce for sure they are GOING to refund. Don't know means may, not is. Use of the phrase "at this time" doesn't denote uncertainty, just that things are different now than at previous or future times. The may denotes uncertainty, which is where we are at this time, so was necessary.

    We can agree to disagree.
    Post edited by ImYourHuckleberry on
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • At this time, at this point, at this moment, right now, there isn't an issue with refunding Finn's zeta, because CG team doesn't have a proposal on what Finn will look like, nor does the community know. No one knows anything. What's there to respond to? Not only do we not know what Finn's proposal is, it follows we don't know the status of any refund, since today at this moment, there's no change to Finn.

    Now you may provide continued feedback such as any change at all to a zeta warrants a zeta refund. But that's not an issue with Finn per say, but an issue with the policy to refund zetas.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • The fact they initially declined the Finn zeta and immediately approved hk leader refund because of “drastic changes” is enough. Quit wasting your breath homie
  • thank you for finally at least mentioning the option of a Refund if that is how you intend to change him... one thing i worry about if you change Finn is this will potentially make Poe and Holdo worthless as expose is their thing so if you alter finn youd havta alter them too.

    As for HK im all for compete rework BUT. i want to stress this... please dont make him worthless to Droid Teams just because your adding a darth revan functionality to him. in most cases majority of people wont use him with revan. make Droid teams better not worse.... i dont know what HK is getting but i know how these things tend to go.
    No. Just No.
  • HarryTDF wrote: »
    The fact they initially declined the Finn zeta and immediately approved hk leader refund because of “drastic changes” is enough. Quit wasting your breath homie

    You in no way responded to my post. Not sure what you're saying or what you think I said.
    what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
  • NicWester
    7473 posts Member
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The fact they initially declined the Finn zeta and immediately approved hk leader refund because of “drastic changes” is enough. Quit wasting your breath homie

    In fairness, they're refunding 3 whole Omegas for a leader ability that was largely irrelevant for over a year, then only became marginally useful once territory battles and grand arena recently meant you need those deep bench teams. Even then, droids are still an easy out.

    Meanwhile Finn's zeta is one that people still use in multiple areas (HAAT, galactic war, even high end Arena offense). I put the zeta on him so I could beat galactic war and carry my guild through p2 of the HAAT, at this point I can sim GW and I don't even attack in HAAT any more so other guildies can get better rewards--Where do I get off demanding a refund? It's like eating a banana and then asking the vendor for your dollar back because there'll be new bananas tomorrow.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Dhuriya24
    77 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    It honestly feels like the devs just want to nerf all leaderships that grant TM based on attacks while Revan's abilities are allowed to aid Yoda in getting one turn after another with a leadership boost that also grants speed while Yoda has 3 abilities that gives himself bonus TM :| I wouldn't side eye these changes so heavily if it was just decided that gaining TM based on attacks was no longer acceptable and no faction was allowed to do it. At least mods would matter alot more :/
    Post edited by Dhuriya24 on
  • NicWester wrote: »
    HarryTDF wrote: »
    The fact they initially declined the Finn zeta and immediately approved hk leader refund because of “drastic changes” is enough. Quit wasting your breath homie

    In fairness, they're refunding 3 whole Omegas for a leader ability that was largely irrelevant for over a year, then only became marginally useful once territory battles and grand arena recently meant you need those deep bench teams. Even then, droids are still an easy out.

    Meanwhile Finn's zeta is one that people still use in multiple areas (HAAT, galactic war, even high end Arena offense). I put the zeta on him so I could beat galactic war and carry my guild through p2 of the HAAT, at this point I can sim GW and I don't even attack in HAAT any more so other guildies can get better rewards--Where do I get off demanding a refund? It's like eating a banana and then asking the vendor for your dollar back because there'll be new bananas tomorrow.

    Sorry but it’s exactly the same. No way to justify it. Even if they do refund the zeta at this point, doesn’t change the fact how dirty they have became.
  • Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    It's honestly feels like the devs just want to nerf all leaderships that grant TM based on attacks while Revan's abilities are allowed to aid Yoda in getting one turn after another with a leadership boost that also grants speed while Yoda has 3 abilities that gives himself bonus TM :| I wouldn't side eye these changes so heavily if it was just decided that gaining TM based on attacks was no longer acceptable and no faction was allowed to do it. At least mods would matter alot more :/

    That's actually my biggest problem with them reworking both Finn and HK. They're slowly removing all the leaders that allow someone to win when you're outclassed in speed. Rex is probably next.
  • Gorem wrote: »
    Finn starts beating Revan in Arena "Announcing Finn nerf to make him less viable in Sith raid, yeah, that's the part we are going to change about the p3 solo, totally, also no zeta refund in OP" <I'm glad they appear to be changing the zeta refund stance, because they better do it.

    People are finding ways to beat Revan with HK lead without even using GG in their squad since Droideka is working well under HK "So we are reworking HK and changing his lead, but this time we'll refund the mats, because no zeta is involved, we can't have you actually getting something useful out of a refund, right?"

    I swear all CG cares about is arena and Revenue income. The moment any team they don't deem "Worthy" can beat Revan its announced they are getting nerfed. Honestly feel like the only reason CLS has not been nerfed is because they might actually fear losing money over it.

    How un-creative do you have to be to nerf HK lead instead of designing droids around him, letting them crit well and giving them extra turns? HK makes droid teams. Hk is the droid leader. Without him Droids are weak. Why can't we have a Droid meta with HK as lead? Why does it have to go from a 90% Revan led arena team in all of the arenas in the entire game, to Darth Revan?

    I had no idea that HK was serving as a counter to Revan so the back to back nerfs are definitely making me roll my eyes. The excuse of Finn/HK limiting future character kits is very hard to believe when they have characters that work together as pairs or trios (Wiggs/the Triumvirate) and smaller factions within larger factions that work better together than within the umbrella faction they share (imp troops,Phoenix,Rogue 1, clones).

    There is literally nothing hindering the developers from designing smaller factions within factions that work well together and have their own unique mechanics, especially after they purposely released a character with the intention to benefit and unite 4 different factions.
  • YaeVizsla
    3447 posts Member
    Gorem wrote: »
    How un-creative do you have to be to nerf HK lead instead of designing droids around him, letting them crit well and giving them extra turns? HK makes droid teams. Hk is the droid leader. Without him Droids are weak. Why can't we have a Droid meta with HK as lead? Why does it have to go from a 90% Revan led arena team in all of the arenas in the entire game, to Darth Revan?
    There is the problem.

    The lead by its nature restricts that creativity.

    In any game, action economy is king. And when a lead engages that in so extreme a fashion, you lose that room to be creative, or to feed the lead.

    The problem with HK lead is you can't let droids crit well, just like you can't let Resistance be good at exposing people while Finn's current zeta is around. 50% turn meter on every crit means you have to severely restrict any ability that lets them use that well or compliment it. Assists, double taps, counters, AoE, alternate sources of TM gain. Two crits means your team gains 100% or more turn meter overall, and makes the faction super prone to looping or excessive turn spam if you're not constantly keeping it in check.

    Having to work against a faction's core conceit to prevent feeding an overpowered lead is a design environment where you are not free to be creative. Or rather, you create a design environment where you have to devote your creative energies not toward how to make this character awesome and engage with the faction in an interesting way, but toward how to keep the character from breaking the existing over-the-top mechanic. You are forced to waste creative energy in order to hold the unit back.

    There is a strong possibility that HK-47 is the reason droids suck. The reason droid attackers are so limited. The reason IG-88 is the worst bounty hunter.

    And HK-47's kit is really bad. Really bad. As bad a case of walking lead syndrome as extreme as Finn. Just a meh toon with a ridiculous lead attached.

    Fixing HK-47 and Finn is the first step toward Resistance and Droids getting nice things that work toward their core concept again.
    Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    I had no idea that HK was serving as a counter to Revan so the back to back nerfs are definitely making me roll my eyes. The excuse of Finn/HK limiting future character kits is very hard to believe when they have characters that work together as pairs or trios (Wiggs/the Triumvirate) and smaller factions within larger factions that work better together than within the umbrella faction they share (imp troops,Phoenix,Rogue 1, clones).

    There is literally nothing hindering the developers from designing smaller factions within factions that work well together and have their own unique mechanics, especially after they purposely released a character with the intention to benefit and unite 4 different factions.
    HK, IG-88, IPD, BB-8, T3-M4 was identified as a check within a week of the first Revan event.

    And subfactions wouldn't help in any way with the issue that HK's lead is so extreme and broad as "droids critting" that it's hard to add to droids at all without feeding it. Particularly since droids basically have three different ways of saying "My team goes first," as long as the other side doesn't have Han, letting you immediately trigger your alpha strike.
    Still not a he.
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    Yeah man Yea realises every kit is bad just as soon as the Devs do. No, he's not a shill or a puppet. He's just a truth teller. Strangely the truth comes from the Devs only.
  • Capwit
    11 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    They may not have addressed this thread directly, but the language used in the recent hk rework and them addressing finn shows they've received the outrage. It's not a victory yet, but at least for now the wolves are at bay on the finn issue (though they essentially said they're dismantling the best or only droid leader now). The war is not won, but way to make our voices heard.
    Edit: and perhaps now tophat will wisely leave the talking to crumb
  • mvmss
    213 posts Member
    Madlax wrote: »
    YaeVizsla wrote: »
    , just like you can't let Resistance be good at exposing people while Finn's current zeta is around. 50% turn meter on every crit means you have to severely restrict any ability that lets them use that well or compliment it. Assists, double taps, counters, AoE, alternate sources of TM gain. Two crits means your team gains 100% or more turn meter overall, and makes the faction super prone to looping or excessive turn spam if you're not constantly keeping it in check.

    True, Yoda is the only one who deserves to make 8 turns in a row in a Revan(ue) team! /sarcasm off

    WAI, obviously.
  • YaeVizsla
    3447 posts Member
    Madlax wrote: »
    True, Yoda is the only one who deserves to make 8 turns in a row in a Revan(ue) team! /sarcasm off
    A lot of turns and having to walk on eggshells to avoid an infinite loop are not the same thing.

    And Yoda does not take eight turns in a row. Two? Yes. Three? If the stars align. But most of Yoda's actions are not Yoda taking a turn. They're Yoda being called to assist. While extreme, and possibly even excessive, it is fundamentally finite and exhaustible.

    The Finn loop is not. If you can plant and pop a bubble every other turn, you will go, and you will never stop until the opposing team is dead. It's unbounded, mitigated solely by the luck of expose chances.

    There's a world of difference between a very powerful non-loop and a loop.
    Still not a he.
  • YaeVizsla
    3447 posts Member
    reovalis wrote: »
    I love how they are using the "fix Finn" language now. Finn is not what you were supposed to be fixing, nor does he need it. You were supposed to fix the RAID. How many other toons are you going to "fix" so that an old, broken raid will be fixed? Just let it go!
    Finn continues to be about more than just the raid.
    Still not a he.
  • CG have said they are looking into alternatives for the Finn rework, and I think one element of the last rework would prevent the infinite loop but still make zFinn lead resistance viable.
    All you need to do is change his leader ability so that it has to be a resistance ally that triggers the expose. Nothing else needs to change. They did this in the proposed rework but i think it is enough on its own.
    This way, the Hstr p3 solo will not work as the rebels triggering expose would not grant TM to 3p0. However, zFinn would be unchanged in a full resistance squad, and the players who invested in the zeta would not be upset if it was not refunded.
  • Why not just fix Traya in the raid to have an ungodly amount of tenacity? Bam fixed the issue, no reworks required for anyone, let’s get this done!
  • KM1
    145 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    ALDUIN719 wrote: »
    Why not just fix Traya in the raid to have an ungodly amount of tenacity? Bam fixed the issue, no reworks required for anyone, let’s get this done!

    Because it's not really about P3. CG LIED! They realized a zFinn team can kill their beloved, tailored, OP Darth Revan and the $P2W$ whiners won't stand for it. That's why zFinn's lead is being eviscerated.At least tell the truth CG. Then you'll be greedy but not greedy liars.
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