Update on zFinn Changes Coming Next Update [MEGA]

Replies

  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    @CG_SBCrumb since zFinn was the scourge of this game despite being wrecked on defense, would you mind listing some counters that work 85% of the time against old and new Revan? It would also be great if the counters weren't Revan themselves :)

    Since you refused to make zFinn viable against any C tier team and above, I assume you know of some counters to the Revans occupying 90% of the meta that is only possible because the majority of the playerbase just doesn't understand the mechanics of this game as well as you + your entourage?

    Would be great to know which team I can switch to so that I can retain my 500 crystal payout before zFinn get benched forever please :)
    1) If your zFinn gets benched forever because of this rework, it's because you choose to be petty and leave assets on the table.

    With Grand Arena matchmaking depending on GP, it's completely reasonable to avoid reinvesting in a character that is not nearly as useful as he was before. It's not necessarily "petty" or "leaving assets on the table."

    ...also phaserbrain on YouTube and Twitch, but phaser_brain on reddit; 612-693-174
  • JaggedJ
    1348 posts Member
    Got the zeta refund so all good. Disappointed that I may have to go back to manually doing the HAAT raid though.

    Sith raid was trash from day 1, still trash? so don't really care about that either way.
  • Woodroward
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 27
    Gorem wrote: »
    Oh no, Finn can beat Both Revans! I know, lets use a year old raid that should be soloable by now as an excuse! What CLS can solo p3? Nah that doesn't matter, He can't reliably beat the meta we are trying to force onto everyone because we hate our playerbase and only care about money, we need to nerf the black guy.

    At least we getting a refund for another Character Gutting, after they destroyed HK and made HK terrible.

    Zfinn can't beat Darth Revan... not if HK is in there anyway. HK prevents tm gain for anyone with bonus protection.

    3p0 uses OMG once and then can't gain tm anymore because his GR unique gave him bonus prot when he got potency up and stealth from using OMG.

    Zfinn loses to DR w/HK before the match even starts.
    Post edited by Woodroward on
  • The only reason I geared Finn and Poe was for the expose train if they are nerfing the only reason I built the team on top of the zeta I want my gear back
  • YaeVizsla
    3201 posts Member
    With Grand Arena matchmaking depending on GP, it's completely reasonable to avoid reinvesting in a character that is not nearly as useful as he was before. It's not necessarily "petty" or "leaving assets on the table."
    For GA, you're on your own and need multiple solid teams. A couple thousand GP will not significantly impact your chances. Another solid team will.

    Pretending the rework renders Finn and his zeta useless is deliberate self-deception to justify holding onto a grudge. New Finn still has 100% TM swing total per bubble popped, and a much better core kit that gives him the tools to control and crack hard targets. New Finn still looks poised to take on some relevant defensive teams on offense, like KRUM or maybe Bossk hunters, and that has definite value on the attack.

    And if you already have a Finn team geared, they're gonna contribute to your GP regardless. They're more valuable in use than benched over a petty grudge.
    Still not a he.
  • the new kit actually looks like it is interesting and fun to play if I am being honest. I am strongly thinking about giving it a whirl.
  • Looking foward of new finn.
    At least poor poe can finally expose some bounty hunters.
  • Phoenixeon wrote: »
    Looking foward of new finn.
    At least poor poe can finally expose some bounty hunters.

    That is one benefit of the new new Finn lead. Poe has much more value when multiple exposes increase the effect.
  • D4rthV4der wrote: »
    RIP Fin. You were the best Zeta in the Game and now you are among the worst.
    The dmg cap makes me also regret that I invested to G12 in this Character.

    C'mon man, you know anything not named Revan in this game is an overpromise and a massive disappointment.... How many times have people been disappointed by CG trolling us by underdelivering
  • Whatever though, at least they are doing the decent thing of giving a refund.... Sucks that I have to start using Revan in Arena for these nonsensical mirror matches
  • @CG_SBCrumb Instead of an immediate refund, why can't we try out the new zFinn to see if we like it?? If we dont, then get the refund..
  • YaeVizsla
    3201 posts Member
    edited March 27
    Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    You're delusional if your really going to try and blame me/the playerbase for Finn getting nerfed. Unless you started playing this game 4 months ago, you should have basic knowledge of how this team works and has worked in the past. This team has always worked by generating a TM train that prevents opponents from attacking and the developers never saw a problem with Finn's leadership until people started using Han to outspeed Revan with c3po.

    zFinn's interaction with c3po in the raid and PVP is not an exploit, its a mechanic that the developers dont enjoy existing in the game because of an actually badly designed raid and zFinn's ability to compete with high tier teams.

    If you really read my post, you would see that I was asking for a non-Revan team that can reliably compete in the meta, but one cant be listed because it doesnt exist.

    If zFinn got ousted out of the meta due to teams that just happen to counter him, whatever thats normal. CG coming out of the woodwork to nerf an old leadership just because they dont think it's fair to people who own Revan is once again, just as petty as you stalking me for weeks.
    1) I ain't stalking you. I'll take your word for it that I replied to a few of your posts on a public forum in a couple of the larger threads of the moment. You have a generic internet number name and no real avatar; I do not remember who the heck you are.

    2) I never blamed the playerbase for zFinn getting reworked. The interaction itself is a problem. It had to be changed for the health of the game. But you should not be upset that the game is being fixed.

    3) Exploit loops are still mechanics. That does not make them stop being exploit loops. They're unhealthy for the game, and need to be fixed. Up to 175% TM gain for popping a bubble is an inherently broken mechanic in an ATB system that just begs to become a loop. The 3PO/Han/Chewie lineup takes it to extremes, with the potential to dovetail you into an infinite turn meter loop at tick zero of combat unless they have a specific ability to prevent it without action (and sometimes even if they do) is not healthy for the game, needs to be fixed, and you are not entitled to additional compensation because the exploit loop you were profiting from gets fixed.

    4) zFinn did not suddenly become a problem because of P3 Sith or 3PO or interactions with Revan. P3 Sith was the specific inciting incident, but it's been an issue for a lot longer. Most problems in a game exist for some period of time, then there is a specific event where it goes too far, and then it is fixed. But that doesn't make the prior problematic elements cease to exist.

    Finn is a massive design space problem. When Finn got his zeta, it firmly proclaimed Resistance to be an Expose faction. His expose sources in-faction at the time were himself, Poe, Trooper, and Pilot. Five new Resistance units and over a year later, his in-faction expose sources were... himself, Poe, Trooper, and Pilot. (BB-8 doesn't count because 70 turn cooldown.) Because Finn's lead must not be fed. Because it's a broken mechanic. They even found a clever workaround in JTR's lead to keep saying Resistance is the expose faction, but nest it under her lead so that it won't feed Finn. Then, they fed Finn a good expose source and it broke.

    hSith was just the impetus to finally fix a standing problem. Because no matter how hard you deny it, going right into an infinite TM loop at tick zero unless your opponent has some sort of out-of-turn counter is a profoundly broken mechanic that creates serious design problems.

    5) Changing mechanics the developers don't enjoy is literally part of their job. Where mechanics the developers don't enjoy are defined as mechanics that they deem must change for the long term health of the game. This is not a Galaxy of Heroes thing. This is a thing in most continuously supported games. Sometimes long-established mechanics have to change. Extreme TM leads like Finn and HK-47 are some of those mechanics that have to change.

    6) Bringing up Revan is pure whataboutism. And phrasing it as "Revan" is disingenuous since there are two completely different Revans right now.

    Jedi Knight Revan is a meta. We've had a lot of metas in the past. People have complained about every single one of them. Yes, Jedi Knight Revan has been an extreme meta. Now, Darth Revan is carving out a spot in the meta, and will continue to do so, whether it's practical or not. There are currently multiple viable meta teams. That you dislike their leads having similar fashion sense does not invalidate that fact.

    But regardless, Revan is a meta. Metas come and go. Upcoming releases will shake Revan's hold. It's a temporary problem. Finn is a persistent problem that's been impacting the game and its development for years. Ousting a Revan meta with the Jar Jar meta will not fix the Finn problem. Only fixing the Finn problem will fix the Finn problem, and it's been let set for long enough.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you know anything not named Revan in this game is an overpromise and a massive disappointment.... How many times have people been disappointed by CG trolling us by underdelivering
    How many times has the playerbase drummed up unreasonably extreme hype and been disappointed based on things that were never promised?

    How many times has Revan been the disappointment when pretty much everything since the release of Nihilus was, "Darth Revan confirmed?"
    Post edited by YaeVizsla on
    Still not a he.
  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    the new kit actually looks like it is interesting and fun to play if I am being honest. I am strongly thinking about giving it a whirl.

    Only that the new kit here is worse then the original new kit we were getting. This is a nerfed version of the nerfed kit.
  • Otsego
    45 posts Member
    One Question:

    will I still be able to autosolo hAAT within 30 minutes with zFinn, C3PO, BB8, Han Solo, CLS ?
  • lifeisagame007
    71 posts Member
    edited March 27
    And there goes my favourite Zeta leadership in the game. Zeta Finn was the one that took me into the top 20 of arena when he got his zeta and kept me there until RJT showed up. I was literally the only dude not running CLS in the top 50. He was my first Zeta. The OG Finn zeta you will be missed. RIP...

    Happy that they decided to refund Zeta to give people a choice. I think I will re-apply it, just for the nostalgia if nothing else :)
  • So thanks a lot cg for making haat that much more annoyingly cumbersome.

    Thanks also for wrecking a great arena anti meta squad

    Thanks for from the back of the cheap seats.
    | ANZGC | Exile |
  • Otsego wrote: »
    One Question:

    will I still be able to autosolo hAAT within 30 minutes with zFinn, C3PO, BB8, Han Solo, CLS ?

    Really doesn't seem like it
    | ANZGC | Exile |
  • Arcaver
    317 posts Member
    Droideka wrote: »
    Arcaver wrote: »
    AGAIN, change the **** raid, and stop nerfing the characters we use!

    Give Treya an unstoppable tenacity increase per hit, and that would change so much on this raid.

    How many other things would that break? Just curious. There are other setups for p3
    A couple. CLS would be able to solo it much more easily. They get TM when debuffs are resisted, and if Traya is resisting every debuff, even ones that fully geared 3PO will be able to solo P3.

    Could add that once Treya's Tenacity is increased to a certain amount she gets a passive (like Prepared) and characters no longer gain bonus turn meter. Like Darth Revan's ability for characters who have protection up.
    #ReworkCaptialGamesPeopleSkills #StopIgnoringUsCG #CGCustomerSkillsWeakerThanAnakinsPowerAgainstTheHighGround
  • Woodroward
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 27
    Arcaver wrote: »
    Droideka wrote: »
    Arcaver wrote: »
    AGAIN, change the **** raid, and stop nerfing the characters we use!

    Give Treya an unstoppable tenacity increase per hit, and that would change so much on this raid.

    How many other things would that break? Just curious. There are other setups for p3
    A couple. CLS would be able to solo it much more easily. They get TM when debuffs are resisted, and if Traya is resisting every debuff, even ones that fully geared 3PO will be able to solo P3.

    Could add that once Treya's Tenacity is increased to a certain amount she gets a passive (like Prepared) and characters no longer gain bonus turn meter. Like Darth Revan's ability for characters who have protection up.

    Please god no!

    Tm gain is pretty much our only weapon anywhere in this raid. Tm gain is one of the most fun mechanics in the game and always has been. It's also always been the only counter to someone with better mods.

    Instead of getting rid of tm loops, they need to be giving one to every faction. It's really the only way to unbreak most of them.
  • SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Whatever though, at least they are doing the decent thing of giving a refund.... Sucks that I have to start using Revan in Arena for these nonsensical mirror matches

    The decent thing would be to refund all resistance characters' mats and gear and let us decide whether we want to level and gear them or not. Without the old leadership ability all the gear I've dumped on characters like Poe is an absolute waste. Same goes for droids with the HK rework.

    When you mess with a leadership ability you mess with lots of characters. Every character that was relevant only due to that leadership ability is now wasted resources that could be better used elsewhere, especially if zetas were involved.

    With what I've pumped into droids and Finn teams I've basically lost most of the gear I've farmed the past few months because the characters I geared are irrelevant without their leader. God forbid anyone not PURCHASE the intended meta team like Revan or separatist battle droid Grievous and instead do something different like try to revive their pre ships HK lead droid team with G12 zeta Grievous on it who now just collects dust.

    What gets in my nerves is that they punish anyone who strays from whatever meta they're trying to sell and rework characters and ruin teams with no concern for anything other than the current pay 2 win meta. But I guess that's their business model, and my preferred playstyle is more in finding teams out of the norm that work well. I don't like being a cookie cutter player.
  • Woodroward
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 27
    Ginger wrote: »
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    Whatever though, at least they are doing the decent thing of giving a refund.... Sucks that I have to start using Revan in Arena for these nonsensical mirror matches

    The decent thing would be to refund all resistance characters' mats and gear and let us decide whether we want to level and gear them or not. Without the old leadership ability all the gear I've dumped on characters like Poe is an absolute waste. Same goes for droids with the HK rework.

    When you mess with a leadership ability you mess with lots of characters. Every character that was relevant only due to that leadership ability is now wasted resources that could be better used elsewhere, especially if zetas were involved.

    With what I've pumped into droids and Finn teams I've basically lost most of the gear I've farmed the past few months because the characters I geared are irrelevant without their leader. God forbid anyone not PURCHASE the intended meta team like Revan or separatist battle droid Grievous and instead do something different like try to revive their pre ships HK lead droid team with G12 zeta Grievous on it who now just collects dust.

    What gets in my nerves is that they punish anyone who strays from whatever meta they're trying to sell and rework characters and ruin teams with no concern for anything other than the current pay 2 win meta. But I guess that's their business model, and my preferred playstyle is more in finding teams out of the norm that work well. I don't like being a cookie cutter player.

    Right?

    They claim they are doing this for the long term health of the game? What a joke. These types of actions are the worst possible ones for the long term health of the game. Star Wars fans are diverse, but are primarily composed of geeks and nerds (I am both). Nerds get dissatisfied with games where they can't bring their own intellect into play.

    Guess what happens when game creators rigidly pick and choose which teams of which factions are going to be useful? People don't get to make a team out of what they have lying around to beat it. They have to follow the lead. So there go the nerds.

    Now the geeks can't even hope to succeed with their faction of choice that represents them, so there go the geeks.

    Limiting the game so much is literally taking all the fun out of this collection game. It's no fun to play a collection game where you don't get to pick and choose who you farm. And saying you still get to pick would be a waste of everyone's time. Not being able to do anything with who you pick is the same as not letting you pick.

    Micro transaction games have longevity when people pay for an advantage not when they pay to win. This is the same principle. Forcing everyone to do the same thing is the same thing as making it pay to win.

    No, if they want to ensure the long term health of the game, they need to keep introducing these new OP mechanics but make them more plug and play so people can compose their own teams to use instead of having to use the team that CG designed to enjoy the utility of any new shiny.

    They need to quit destroying old content to make sure their new content is supreme. That's laziness and somewhat treacherous. The proper path is to fix your "new" content so that it doesn't make things happen that you don't want, not nerfing old content.

    You want to combine the best aspects of MMORPG and mobile games? Well one of the best and most important aspects of MMORPGs is that you get to choose many paths and they are all viable. Let's try getting that back in the game before you permanently injure the long term health of it.

    So to ensure the future health of this game, they need to add a looping tm gain mechanic to every major faction instead of removing it from them.
  • YaeVizsla wrote: »
    Dhuriya24 wrote: »
    You're delusional if your really going to try and blame me/the playerbase for Finn getting nerfed. Unless you started playing this game 4 months ago, you should have basic knowledge of how this team works and has worked in the past. This team has always worked by generating a TM train that prevents opponents from attacking and the developers never saw a problem with Finn's leadership until people started using Han to outspeed Revan with c3po.

    zFinn's interaction with c3po in the raid and PVP is not an exploit, its a mechanic that the developers dont enjoy existing in the game because of an actually badly designed raid and zFinn's ability to compete with high tier teams.

    If you really read my post, you would see that I was asking for a non-Revan team that can reliably compete in the meta, but one cant be listed because it doesnt exist.

    If zFinn got ousted out of the meta due to teams that just happen to counter him, whatever thats normal. CG coming out of the woodwork to nerf an old leadership just because they dont think it's fair to people who own Revan is once again, just as petty as you stalking me for weeks.
    1) I ain't stalking you. I'll take your word for it that I replied to a few of your posts on a public forum in a couple of the larger threads of the moment. You have a generic internet number name and no real avatar; I do not remember who the heck you are.

    2) I never blamed the playerbase for zFinn getting reworked. The interaction itself is a problem. It had to be changed for the health of the game. But you should not be upset that the game is being fixed.

    3) Exploit loops are still mechanics. That does not make them stop being exploit loops. They're unhealthy for the game, and need to be fixed. Up to 175% TM gain for popping a bubble is an inherently broken mechanic in an ATB system that just begs to become a loop. The 3PO/Han/Chewie lineup takes it to extremes, with the potential to dovetail you into an infinite turn meter loop at tick zero of combat unless they have a specific ability to prevent it without action (and sometimes even if they do) is not healthy for the game, needs to be fixed, and you are not entitled to additional compensation because the exploit loop you were profiting from gets fixed.

    4) zFinn did not suddenly become a problem because of P3 Sith or 3PO or interactions with Revan. P3 Sith was the specific inciting incident, but it's been an issue for a lot longer. Most problems in a game exist for some period of time, then there is a specific event where it goes to far, and then it is fixed. But that doesn't make the prior problematic elements cease to exist.

    Finn is a massive design space problem. When Finn got his zeta, it firmly proclaimed Resistance to be an Expose faction. His expose sources in-faction at the time were himself, Poe, Trooper, and Pilot. Five new Resistance units and over a year later, his in-faction expose sources were... himself, Poe, Trooper, and Pilot. (BB-8 doesn't count because 70 turn cooldown.) Because Finn's lead must not be fed. Because it's a broken mechanic. They even found a clever workaround in JTR's lead to keep saying Resistance is the expose faction, but nest it under her lead so that it won't feed Finn. Then, they fed Finn a good expose source and it broke.

    hSith was just the impetus to finally fix a standing problem. Because no matter how hard you deny it, going right into an infinite TM loop at tick zero unless your opponent has some sort of out-of-turn counter is a profoundly broken mechanic that creates serious design problems.

    5) Changing mechanics the developers don't enjoy is literally part of their job. Where mechanics the developers don't enjoy are defined as mechanics that they deem must change for the long term health of the game. This is not a Galaxy of Heroes thing. This is a thing in most continuously supported games. Sometimes long-established mechanics have to change. Extreme TM leads like Finn and HK-47 are some of those mechanics that have to change.

    6) Bringing up Revan is pure whataboutism. And phrasing it as "Revan" is disingenuous since there are two completely different Revans right now.

    Jedi Knight Revan is a meta. We've had a lot of metas in the past. People have complained about every single one of them. Yes, Jedi Knight Revan has been an extreme meta. Now, Darth Revan is carving out a spot in the meta, and will continue to do so, whether it's practical or not. There are currently multiple viable meta teams. That you dislike their leads having similar fashion sense does not invalidate that fact.

    But regardless, Revan is a meta. Metas come and go. Upcoming releases will shake Revan's hold. It's a temporary problem. Finn is a persistent problem that's been impacting the game and its development for years. Ousting a Revan meta with the Jar Jar meta will not fix the Finn problem. Only fixing the Finn problem will fix the Finn problem, and it's been let set for long enough.
    SmurfLAX28 wrote: »
    C'mon man, you know anything not named Revan in this game is an overpromise and a massive disappointment.... How many times have people been disappointed by CG trolling us by underdelivering
    How many times has the playerbase drummed up unreasonably extreme hype and been disappointed based on things that were never promised?

    How many times has Revan been the disappointment when pretty much everything since the release of Nihilus was, "Darth Revan confirmed?"

    1. Ok, I'll give you that, you have written like what, 100 gaslighting/mansplaining responses to other people's posts (instead of just writing your own for some reason...?) about why zFinn's nerf is fine and we should all agree it's fine and anyone who doesn't think it's fine is obtuse . I personally have no idea why you feel the uncontrollable need to try and sway people to your way of thinking when you have been doing it for months, and it's not working.

    2.If you dont mind me asking, why exactly are you so offended on the behalf of CG? Your literally acting as though your an employee who designed this game. And if your not an employee, your not getting paid to defend CG's honor? They are adults who are able to defend themselves from the enormous amount people who think this nerf is garbage.

    3. Once again, you keep trying to act as though I'm entitled because I want to maintain my payout. To do so, I requested reliable counters that I could use in replacement of zFinn. Yet all you do is derail that and act like I'm asking for crystal welfare and refuse to name a single reliable counter to either Revan that is not another Revan.
  • DaceBG
    32 posts Member
    @ShaolinPunk I have a question about the "Hold the line" mechanics. The final text reads "All Resistance allies recover 20% Health and Protection. Finn gains Advantage, Defense Up, Taunt, and Determination for 2 turns, and dispels all debuffs from all allies."

    Does this mean that Finn heals, gains buffs, and then dispells? Will he be able to effectively heal and apply buffs if there are healing and buff immunity applied?
    Leader of Bulgarian Republic
  • Woodroward
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 27
    DaceBG wrote: »
    I have a question about the "Hold the line" mechanics. The final text reads "All Resistance allies recover 20% Health and Protection. Finn gains Advantage, Defense Up, Taunt, and Determination for 2 turns, and dispels all debuffs from all allies."

    Does this mean that Finn heals, gains buffs, and then dispells? Will he be able to effectively heal and apply buffs if there are healing and buff immunity applied?

    Mechanic-wise these types of things tend to occur simultaneously. (Beneficial effects targeting allies). Every other cleanse/buff in the game doesn't leave people subject to BI/shock/confuse. This one doesn't either.

    I also have experience with this because it currently is a group cleanse that puts buffs on Finn and he gets the buffs when I wipe confusion from him with it.

    You can tell these things occur simultaneously by the clear wording.

    Specifically using the word 'and' If they occurred one after the other, it would say 'and then' instead of 'and'.
  • I wish they would just be honest and admit this is nothing to do with the Sith raid but the realisation that huge turn meter gains are damaging to balance going forward. I'm sure most people would be more understanding, as with the HK-47 leadership changes, if the motives were less obviously contrived.

    I also wish they would look at this from the point of view of those with sub G11/12 squads. I'm sure G12 resistance teams are still viable but my squad is not at those dizzy heights. So I have 2 choices a) leave my resistance team to rot and write off all the investment so far b) pile more resources into this team to bring them inline with the expected results the testing is suggesting they are capable of.

    I would like to see refunds for the squad as a whole, the change in leadership effects more than just the leadership resources itself. This squad no longer does the job I invested in it for, I would rather invest elsewhere e.g. First Order, Nightsisters, Bounty Hunters who haven't been changed (yet).
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