Yoda gains bonus turn meter despite HK's zeta

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Self explanatory title. When he does his special he grants himself protection up (amongst other) and afterward still gain his bonus turn meter (35/%+10%/jedi allies) despite having zHK active with Darth Revan lead.

Anyone else sees the same?

Replies

  • Yup ... HKs zeta doesn't seem to do what it advertices... Maybe it's WAI, maybe it's not ... Devs will hopefully make a statement soon.
  • He adds his turn meter before the protection buff.

    This zeta was meant to prevent Bastila lead more than anything.
  • crzydroid
    7252 posts Moderator
    He actually gains the tm before the protection up. Devs flagged it for review, but that doesn't mean they won't still come out and say WAI.
  • Woodroward
    3749 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    dominiQC wrote: »
    @slickdealer @crzydroid

    His Battle Meditation ability description clearly states otherwise though.

    gatydlc1xjtq.jpg

    No it doesn't. The only actions that are sequenced in that description is that he spreads buffs after he gives some to himself. The tm gain is a different sentence and there's no "and then" portion of that so by the description could take place before or after or at the same time as the protection up.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    @slickdealer @crzydroid

    His Battle Meditation ability description clearly states otherwise though.

    gatydlc1xjtq.jpg

    No it doesn't. The only actions that are sequenced in that description is that he spreads buffs after he gives some to himself. The tm gain is a different sentence and there's no "and then" portion of that so by the description could take place before or after or at the same time as the protection up.

    Agree. The description doesn't state when he gains TM.
  • So if it doesn’t slow down GMY under Revan, then why bother? Is there any other character than regularly gains TM with protection up? I’m pretty sure no one is using bastila in the arena anymore.
  • crzydroid
    7252 posts Moderator
    Not disagreeing that given the interpretation of the description, or immediate thoughts upon reading HK's zeta that it should stop this. Merely stating that if you look at mechanics on swgoh.gg, tm gain happens first. It's far from the first time the order of things in a description doesn't match execution order.

    Someone has made a bug report on this and they've flagged it for review, but they could still decide it's WAI.
  • Gheyst1214
    205 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    I’m pretty in that specific instance it’s WAI. If JKR, Bastila, Bindo, or GK call GMY to assist nobody moves. I know because I fought a DR squad in arena today and that’s exactly what happened. Needless to say I lost badly.
  • Gheyst1214 wrote: »
    I’m pretty in that specific instance it’s WAI. If JKR, Bastila, Bindo, or GK call GMY to assist nobody moves. I know because I fought a DR squad in arena today and that’s exactly what happened. Needless to say I lost badly.

    That's because of Darth Revan's zeta preventing assists on him, not HK's zeta stopping TM gain.
    https://swgoh.gg/u/ionastarbound/
    Discord: Iona Starbound#5299
  • Kokie
    1338 posts Member
    I dunno, the little green goblin dances a lot less since I put on the zeta....of course he doesnt live long enough to matter much anymore anyways
  • dominiQC wrote: »
    It would be normal to think you gain TM after performing actions from your turn, jot before. Then the action sequence in the description is clear, TM happens at the end. If they designed to happen first, then it should be written first in the description.

    It wouldn't make sence to describe my day saying: I had dinner with my wife. I woke early. Unless they wanted to give a yoda RP touch to his ability.
    So your response is more or less "If I worded it that way, it would mean this. Therefore it means this."

    Well, we're all welcome to our own interpretations, but an international online game can't use everyone's tendencies in vernacular therefore we must learn to understand their common parlance. in these types of games, the general assumption is that unless timing is specifically worded, it typically happens at the same time. I would assume this happens at the same time. If it did, then the tm gain would not be stopped.

    The rule system for this game is very like magic the gathering. If a card or ability has multiple effects, nothing occurs in between them (unless stated otherwise with a phrase such as "and then". Not having bonus prot when doing the check for tm (which happens right before it applies) means that it should go through.

    So there you go, you've been helped and hopefully now know better than to misinterpret this type of statement in the future since this is following a standard logical pattern in gaming wording.
  • Rake6
    442 posts Member
    Yoda nerf incoming. Jedi scum!
  • Woodroward
    3749 posts Member
    edited April 2019
    dominiQC wrote: »
    I just fought a Yoda under Bastilla lead in GA with Drevan (L), Badstilla and HK and he still gained bonus turn meter from his special while having bonus prot from Bastilla Lead. It's definitely not WAI.

    @Woodroward your comments don't bring anything in regard to the topic. Please move on or contribute positively.

    I did contribute positively. I explained how their vernacular is consistently interpreted and explained that our perspective is not going to get them to rewrite their preferred vernacular because everyone else has already learned how theirs works. Changing it now to appease you would confuse myriads of other people. (although worded differently)

    Consistency is key here. Learn their consistencies and you'll be fine.

    I did contribute positively to this conversation. You liking what I had to say is not the determiner of that.
  • Woodroward
    3749 posts Member
    edited April 2019
    dominiQC wrote: »

    If you gain bonus TM at the start you would then be performing actions in between turns with a bar between 35 to 75% full, which makes no sense. Hence pointing out the "and then". Sorry you didn't understood on the first pass. Now you've been helped.

    Also, your vision of the world is not necessarily the same as it appears to everyone, so you shouldn't be talking on other people behalf. If you think switching the TM sentence at the beginning would confuse anyone you are vastly underestimating every other player's intelligence which probably explain the arrogance in your comments. It's not only what you write that I don't like. I don't have any lessons to receive from someone like you.

    You choosing not to learn how to interpret their wording is your own choice. That doesn't make what they are saying unclear. Nor is what I have pointed out to you "my view" it is THE understanding of these types of games that is consistent across basically every one of them. Go take a tour on the Magic the gathering website and talk about rules there for a bit. You should see that wording needs to be precise and consistent in and of itself rather than by outside sources' preferred vernacular (yours or mine).

    Whether or not people would understand it at the start of the description or the end has no bearing on what I am saying. What I'm saying is that claiming that it being at the end of the sentence should make it last makes it sound like that's what the phrasing should mean, and if it did, it would confuse myriads of people who are well aware of THE understanding of vernacular that this game uses.

    If he gains tm at the start of the ability it doesn't matter because every character is at 0 tm as soon as their action starts. They used it all up when they picked the action.

    Now, please refrain from more quasi insulting posts that are detracting from the thread.
    Post edited by Woodroward on
  • It's written in English and in English, that would mean it happens afterwards.
    It's a multinational game, so more effort should be put into the wording and translations.
  • It's written in English and in English, that would mean it happens afterwards.
    It's a multinational game, so more effort should be put into the wording and translations.

    It isn't an ordered list. It's a description of what happens in no particular order. It uses the same style of writing as it always has. It doesn't even slightly mean that. Insisting it does is having personally maintained ignorance.

    Learning how they word things is the way to go, not trying to push your meanings on them. And their parlance is also common and accurate in common English. It's your personal vernacular that has it means something other than what it does, not common English.
  • Jarvind
    3920 posts Member
    Woodroward wrote: »
    It's written in English and in English, that would mean it happens afterwards.
    It's a multinational game, so more effort should be put into the wording and translations.

    It isn't an ordered list. It's a description of what happens in no particular order. It uses the same style of writing as it always has. It doesn't even slightly mean that. Insisting it does is having personally maintained ignorance.

    Learning how they word things is the way to go, not trying to push your meanings on them. And their parlance is also common and accurate in common English. It's your personal vernacular that has it means something other than what it does, not common English.

    I can't tell if you're trolling, but in case you're actually this dense:

    then
    /T͟Hen/
    adverb
    1.
    at that time; at the time in question.
    "I was living in Cairo then"
    synonyms: at that time, at that point, in those days; More
    2.
    after that; next; afterward.
    "she won the first and then the second game"
    synonyms: next, after that, afterwards, subsequently, later
    "she won the first and then the second game"


    Anyway, this is a fairly ridiculous bug given that this zeta seems to be pretty much specifically made to hinder Yoda.
    u58t4vkrvnrz.png



  • Calbion
    140 posts Member
    I don’t get why people are arguing somantics when devs have sent it to review for the game design team already. It’s not the first time how an ability was written vs how game design devs intended for it to work (or for it to be bugged), doesn’t tally up.

    The one take home is that a lot of ability text is written ambiguously.
  • Woodroward wrote: »
    dominiQC wrote: »
    @slickdealer @crzydroid

    His Battle Meditation ability description clearly states otherwise though.

    gatydlc1xjtq.jpg

    No it doesn't. The only actions that are sequenced in that description is that he spreads buffs after he gives some to himself. The tm gain is a different sentence and there's no "and then" portion of that so by the description could take place before or after or at the same time as the protection up.

    You are correct, but this absolutely needs to change. We are long past the time when kits are so complicated that order of operations is extremely important, and it’s essential that we know what comes first. Requiring testing to understand the order events trigger is poor game design when characters takes weeks/months to gear up.
  • Palanthian
    1262 posts Member
    Regardless of the wording, HK's zeta was blatantly created as a hard counter to GMY, and at the moment it's not fulfilling that task. It needs looking at, otherwise it's a fairly worthless zeta when facing JKR teams.
  • jkray622
    1636 posts Member
    I don't believe the game functions quite like "Magic the Gathering." We have seen several instances where the Order of Operations is very significant.

    For example, when the Devs pushed a patch out and switched up the order of operations between Sion taunt and Traya debuff cleansing, and all of a sudden Traya mirror matches started to deal with taunting Sion, whereas before he wouldn't taunt - that was hugely significant, and was completely caused by a small order of operations change.

    I don't think everything in a skill happens simultaneously - I think they all queue up and resolve individually, and the order is significant. Hopefully we will get clarity from the Devs on this scenario.
  • Fahrius
    620 posts Member
    Palanthian wrote: »
    Regardless of the wording, HK's zeta was blatantly created as a hard counter to GMY, and at the moment it's not fulfilling that task. It needs looking at, otherwise it's a fairly worthless zeta when facing JKR teams.

    it works... i've just called my gmy with jolee and he didn't gain any tm (of course, attacking a toon with over 50% health so gmy can gain the tm)... so... are you guys sure that the gmy you looked had the buff protection up?

    https://swgoh.gg/u/fahrius/ - Discord - Fahrius#1194
  • Denizen_Kain
    92 posts Member
    edited April 2019
    dominiQC wrote: »
    It would be normal to think you gain TM after performing actions from your turn, jot before. Then the action sequence in the description is clear, TM happens at the end. If they designed to happen first, then it should be written first in the description.

    It wouldn't make sence to describe my day saying: I had dinner with my wife. I woke early. Unless they wanted to give a yoda RP touch to his ability.

    This ^. Yoda is currently taking a turn to use his Battle Meditation. That means that his TM is full. It doesn’t makes sense to apply the TM gain first, before he uses his turn to cast the buffs because his TM is already full.

    So he’s taking his turn, he casts Battle Meditation and spreads buffs, his TM is depleted from that action, then the rest of the ability kicks in to give/refill 35% of the TM he used to cast Battle Meditation
  • Fahrius wrote: »
    Palanthian wrote: »
    Regardless of the wording, HK's zeta was blatantly created as a hard counter to GMY, and at the moment it's not fulfilling that task. It needs looking at, otherwise it's a fairly worthless zeta when facing JKR teams.

    it works... i've just called my gmy with jolee and he didn't gain any tm (of course, attacking a toon with over 50% health so gmy can gain the tm)... so... are you guys sure that the gmy you looked had the buff protection up?

    Literally the whole thread has been discussing this....whether or not he gets TM or Protection Up first. It's order of operations....

    The question is whether or not it is working as intended, according to the devs. As a player, it's certainly misleading. And a pretty useless zeta if it doesn't impact yoda.
  • Woodroward
    3749 posts Member
    edited April 2019
    Palanthian wrote: »
    Regardless of the wording, HK's zeta was blatantly created as a hard counter to GMY, and at the moment it's not fulfilling that task. It needs looking at, otherwise it's a fairly worthless zeta when facing JKR teams.

    No, HK's zeta was created as a hard counter to 3p0
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Woodroward wrote: »
    It's written in English and in English, that would mean it happens afterwards.
    It's a multinational game, so more effort should be put into the wording and translations.

    It isn't an ordered list. It's a description of what happens in no particular order. It uses the same style of writing as it always has. It doesn't even slightly mean that. Insisting it does is having personally maintained ignorance.

    Learning how they word things is the way to go, not trying to push your meanings on them. And their parlance is also common and accurate in common English. It's your personal vernacular that has it means something other than what it does, not common English.

    I can't tell if you're trolling, but in case you're actually this dense:

    then
    /T͟Hen/
    adverb
    1.
    at that time; at the time in question.
    "I was living in Cairo then"
    synonyms: at that time, at that point, in those days; More
    2.
    after that; next; afterward.
    "she won the first and then the second game"
    synonyms: next, after that, afterwards, subsequently, later
    "she won the first and then the second game"


    Anyway, this is a fairly ridiculous bug given that this zeta seems to be pretty much specifically made to hinder Yoda.

    I'm not trolling, but you are confused. The 'and then' has nothing to do with the part of the description that talks about tm gain. The 'and then' is in the clause of the sentence that talks about spreading buffs (and then spread buffs), not the separate sentence that talks about tm gain.

    Therefore it doesn't apply to the part about tm gain. Not in common english. In personal parlance it may apply to everything stated after 'and then', but the rules of the language do NOT say that.

    I'm not trolling, I'm helping all the people who think this doesn't work how it's worded to see that they are incorrect.

    TLDR, it says "and then spread buffs" NOT, "and then gain tm".
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