Airplane mode in TW to avoid preloading TM - Cheating?

Replies

  • leef
    13028 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • TVF wrote: »
    Well my phone force closes the app all the time. Lucky for me it only seems to happen when I'm losing . It's weird.

    Lucky you, my phone force closes at least once a week, hopefully I am just in a shop, but it's happened upon entering a battle too. :( This game is played wirelessly, over the air, in sometimes uncertain wifi. Meh.
    Completely different from the other issue mentioned here.
    Officer of recruiting for Ewoks Fit In Blenders. Traya, Wat & Negotiator on farm. 9 spots open, ask me for an invite.
  • Kyno
    21861 posts Moderator
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?

    Where is it stated that we can only retreat during an enemies turn?

    Retreating is an option, all of which (including retreating), land you in the same place. There is no way to leave a battle (without losing or winning) that doesn't put you in the same place as a retreat. What violation has occured?
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    Is this a real question?

    Retreat is functionality programned into the game that is only availble under certain conditions.

    Force closing is not programmed into the game and it expands the conditions under which a "Retreat" result can be obtained.

    I.e., you're doing something outside the game app to manipulate in-game functionality.

    Others have quoted the rules under which such actions could be deemed a violation of ToS.
  • leef wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    What I meant was "force closing" avoids both pitfalls. Don't have to use airplane mode. Don't have to wait.

    force close falls in the same catagory as airplane mode though.
    I'll just strategically let my battery die within the 5 minute interval if I see I'm losing then.
    I guess the phone running out of battery will fall in this category too since it's a way of force closing.
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    leef wrote: »
    Vendi1983 wrote: »
    What I meant was "force closing" avoids both pitfalls. Don't have to use airplane mode. Don't have to wait.

    force close falls in the same catagory as airplane mode though.
    I'll just strategically let my battery die within the 5 minute interval if I see I'm losing then.
    I guess the phone running out of battery will fall in this category too since it's a way of force closing.

    If you're doing it on purpose, and in a systematic way, that's a pretty bright line distinction from that occuring unintentionally. Being cute isn't a defense. Intent matters.
  • leef
    13028 posts Member
    edited May 10
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?

    Where is it stated that we can only retreat during an enemies turn?

    Retreating is an option, all of which (including retreating), land you in the same place. There is no way to leave a battle (without losing or winning) that doesn't put you in the same place as a retreat. What violation has occured?

    Well, you can only retreat during your own turn so it would be a bit redundant to state that you may not retreat during the enemy's turn.
    You know as well as i do that using airplane mode (and force closing) puts you in a better place for the next battle if you're badly losing and aren't able to retreat anymore in GA/TW or could salvage a raid attempt if you accidentilly died before being able to retreat. It's a safeguard of sorts against ef-ups and it's clearly beneficial.
    Do you honestly believe that force closing the app, when there no longer is an ingame option to retreat, so that the battle doesn't register which results in the game registering it as a retreat instead of a loss is playing the game the way it is intented? We both know you don't and we both know that the only reason the devs aren't stating it's not is because it's not something they can do anything about. Which is also why they coded it in a way that you do lose your team in case of a "crash" in GA/TW, but you don't in raids. A fine sollution i might add.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Kyno
    21861 posts Moderator
    snoboredca wrote: »
    Is this a real question?

    Retreat is functionality programned into the game that is only availble under certain conditions.

    Force closing is not programmed into the game and it expands the conditions under which a "Retreat" result can be obtained.

    I.e., you're doing something outside the game app to manipulate in-game functionality.

    Others have quoted the rules under which such actions could be deemed a violation of ToS.

    And what advantage does that get you over a retreat?

    For it to be an exploit, there needs to be a benefit over the other option.

    When you retreat or force close, you end up in the exact same situation.

    There are only 3 options: win, lose, or leave the battle. Each has it's own unique outcome and results no matter how you do each one of those 3 you end up in that unique outcome.

    The actions are different but the result is the same, which would make it not an exploit.
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    Kyno wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    Is this a real question?

    Retreat is functionality programned into the game that is only availble under certain conditions.

    Force closing is not programmed into the game and it expands the conditions under which a "Retreat" result can be obtained.

    I.e., you're doing something outside the game app to manipulate in-game functionality.

    Others have quoted the rules under which such actions could be deemed a violation of ToS.

    And what advantage does that get you over a retreat?

    For it to be an exploit, there needs to be a benefit over the other option.

    When you retreat or force close, you end up in the exact same situation.

    There are only 3 options: win, lose, or leave the battle. Each has it's own unique outcome and results no matter how you do each one of those 3 you end up in that unique outcome.

    The actions are different but the result is the same, which would make it not an exploit.

    The advantage is not that the outcome of force close is better than a retreat, the advantage is that force close creates the ability to retreat when the game did not intend for you to have such ability.

    Since retreat has an advantage over a loss, it is an option you can only sometimes choose, with potential negative (or positive) consequences if you elect not to choose it when it is offered.

    By taking an outside-the-game action that makes that option availabile ALL the time, you are hacking the game by eliminating the consequences of your choice during your turn.

    You're not making retreat "better", but you're making it more available.

    Think about Blackjack. The casino allows you to "surrender" sometimes but not always. Surrender is better than a loss. If you choose not to surrender when you have the chance, you make a choice and take a risk of a worse outcome. If you were to skip your chance to surrender then capture the benefits some later time when the game doesn't intend for you to have that option, that's cheating.

    Or if I elected not to use DN's "Annihilate" during my turn when I could have done so, but then I find a way to fire it mid-turn by messing with my phone settings, I don't think you'd have as hard of a time understanding the concept.

    "Retreat" is an option during your turn as much as Annihilate is. Neither are options when it's not your turn. Messing with your device to make either an option outside your turn is hacking the game to cheat the rules of play.
  • Bulldog1205
    3087 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    Is this a real question?

    Retreat is functionality programned into the game that is only availble under certain conditions.

    Force closing is not programmed into the game and it expands the conditions under which a "Retreat" result can be obtained.

    I.e., you're doing something outside the game app to manipulate in-game functionality.

    Others have quoted the rules under which such actions could be deemed a violation of ToS.

    And what advantage does that get you over a retreat?

    For it to be an exploit, there needs to be a benefit over the other option.

    When you retreat or force close, you end up in the exact same situation.

    There are only 3 options: win, lose, or leave the battle. Each has it's own unique outcome and results no matter how you do each one of those 3 you end up in that unique outcome.

    The actions are different but the result is the same, which would make it not an exploit.

    The advantage is clear. You can retreat when it’s not your turn, so you don’t preload TM.
  • Liath
    4831 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?

    Where is it stated that we can only retreat during an enemies turn?

    Retreating is an option, all of which (including retreating), land you in the same place. There is no way to leave a battle (without losing or winning) that doesn't put you in the same place as a retreat. What violation has occured?

    Well, you can only retreat during your own turn so it would be a bit redundant to state that you may not retreat during the enemy's turn.
    You know as well as i do that using airplane mode (and force closing) puts you in a better place for the next battle if you're badly losing and aren't able to retreat anymore in GA/TW or could salvage a raid attempt if you accidentilly died before being able to retreat. It's a safeguard of sorts against ef-ups and it's clearly beneficial.
    Do you honestly believe that force closing the app, when there no longer is an ingame option to retreat, so that the battle doesn't register which results in the game registering it as a retreat instead of a loss is playing the game the way it is intented? We both know you don't and we both know that the only reason the devs aren't stating it's not is because it's not something they can do anything about. Which is also why they coded it in a way that you do lose your team in case of a "crash" in GA/TW, but you don't in raids. A fine sollution i might add.

    I played another game in which the devs changed the game to punish force quits and the community revolted and they changed it back.

    In this case, when it's something that's been done and discussed openly and publicly for literally years (this goes back to GW, well before TW even existed), and there's never been any suggestion that the devs consider it inappropriate, it's quite reasonable for people to conclude that it's a fine thing to do.
  • leef
    13028 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »

    I played another game in which the devs changed the game to punish force quits and the community revolted and they changed it back.

    In this case, when it's something that's been done and discussed openly and publicly for literally years (this goes back to GW, well before TW even existed), and there's never been any suggestion that the devs consider it inappropriate, it's quite reasonable for people to conclude that it's a fine thing to do.

    you probably didn't play madden mobile 16(?), haha.
    I agree that it's quite reasonable to conclude that it's a fine thing to do. I do however disagree that it's playing the game the way it is intented, which in other cases could be a sanctionable offence. My gripe isn't with airplane mode/force close, but with how we, the players, are able to determine whether or not something is cheating by ea/cg's standards.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Liath wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?

    Where is it stated that we can only retreat during an enemies turn?

    Retreating is an option, all of which (including retreating), land you in the same place. There is no way to leave a battle (without losing or winning) that doesn't put you in the same place as a retreat. What violation has occured?

    Well, you can only retreat during your own turn so it would be a bit redundant to state that you may not retreat during the enemy's turn.
    You know as well as i do that using airplane mode (and force closing) puts you in a better place for the next battle if you're badly losing and aren't able to retreat anymore in GA/TW or could salvage a raid attempt if you accidentilly died before being able to retreat. It's a safeguard of sorts against ef-ups and it's clearly beneficial.
    Do you honestly believe that force closing the app, when there no longer is an ingame option to retreat, so that the battle doesn't register which results in the game registering it as a retreat instead of a loss is playing the game the way it is intented? We both know you don't and we both know that the only reason the devs aren't stating it's not is because it's not something they can do anything about. Which is also why they coded it in a way that you do lose your team in case of a "crash" in GA/TW, but you don't in raids. A fine sollution i might add.

    I played another game in which the devs changed the game to punish force quits and the community revolted and they changed it back.

    In this case, when it's something that's been done and discussed openly and publicly for literally years (this goes back to GW, well before TW even existed), and there's never been any suggestion that the devs consider it inappropriate, it's quite reasonable for people to conclude that it's a fine thing to do.

    Agree. That's the only winning argument here.
  • Liath wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Jarvind wrote: »
    Just retreating does the same thing. You put up an L, but the enemy team resets to its initial state.

    This.

    The only additional benefit to airplane mode is that it doesn't need to be your turn to retreat.

    So you are saying it does give you an additional benefit that playing the game the intended way doesn’t provide. Got it.

    Can you provide a statement about this intended way.

    In other case so far where they have stated something was an exploit it violated some mechanic in game or a stated principle. Retreating is an option, but by no means is it the restricted "only way" to exit a battle.

    You're basically saying that the mod thingy wasn't an exploit untill they said it was an exploit, which is exactly the issue.

    No the mod this is an exploit because there is a stated "lock" with this game modes that is being violated.

    How's that stated lock any different from not being able to retreat during the enemy's turn?

    Where is it stated that we can only retreat during an enemies turn?

    Retreating is an option, all of which (including retreating), land you in the same place. There is no way to leave a battle (without losing or winning) that doesn't put you in the same place as a retreat. What violation has occured?

    Well, you can only retreat during your own turn so it would be a bit redundant to state that you may not retreat during the enemy's turn.
    You know as well as i do that using airplane mode (and force closing) puts you in a better place for the next battle if you're badly losing and aren't able to retreat anymore in GA/TW or could salvage a raid attempt if you accidentilly died before being able to retreat. It's a safeguard of sorts against ef-ups and it's clearly beneficial.
    Do you honestly believe that force closing the app, when there no longer is an ingame option to retreat, so that the battle doesn't register which results in the game registering it as a retreat instead of a loss is playing the game the way it is intented? We both know you don't and we both know that the only reason the devs aren't stating it's not is because it's not something they can do anything about. Which is also why they coded it in a way that you do lose your team in case of a "crash" in GA/TW, but you don't in raids. A fine sollution i might add.

    I played another game in which the devs changed the game to punish force quits and the community revolted and they changed it back.

    In this case, when it's something that's been done and discussed openly and publicly for literally years (this goes back to GW, well before TW even existed), and there's never been any suggestion that the devs consider it inappropriate, it's quite reasonable for people to conclude that it's a fine thing to do.

    I’m in no way suggesting it needs to be punished or anything. I do wish they would change the game so it’s not an advantage to use outside mechanisms. Ex: have an “accept battle” option at the end of all TW/GA losses or all Raid runs.

    My overall point was simply that “cheating” is a gray area, and the TOS are kind of useless when not applied consistently.
  • kello_511
    1104 posts Member
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?
    As per your argument: You aren’t meant to have that level of guild organization, or else the in game chat function would allow it. You aren’t meant to be able to optimize your mods like that, because it isn’t built into the game.
    Etc. etc.

    Reality:
    We all knew all along that the in game chat was weak, and the accepted answer was “there is no point in enhancing it since there are other existing tools to do it - it would be a waste of dev time”. I believe the devs themselves even said this.

    Force close/airplane mod falls under the same category to me. It’s been known publicly, and discussed openly, and know to everyone since the start of time. The fact that there has not once been a single word mentioned about it being “unintended” by the developers is tacit acceptance of it.

    The mod thing is totally different. The game mode description, the posts rolling it out, and other communications about these game mods have clearly laid our that mods are supposed to lock in. The fact that there is a way to bypass that is therefore obviously unintended and thus would be considered to be an exploit to knowingly take advantage of it.
  • TVF
    17079 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Well my phone force closes the app all the time. Lucky for me it only seems to happen when I'm losing . It's weird.

    Lucky you, my phone force closes at least once a week, hopefully I am just in a shop, but it's happened upon entering a battle too. :( This game is played wirelessly, over the air, in sometimes uncertain wifi. Meh.
    Completely different from the other issue mentioned here.

    It was a joke.

    I'll concede not my best, however.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.
  • kello_511
    1104 posts Member
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.
  • TVF
    17079 posts Member
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    You don't use airplane mode?
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    TVF wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    You don't use airplane mode?

    I can't speak for individual players since I can't police all of them, but it was brought up for discussion and so we're deliberating an official Guild rule on the practice. I personally never have, and would not do so unless I was comfortable that it was appropriate to do so.
  • kello_511
    1104 posts Member
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.
  • kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    I'm not as sophisticated with quote levels as you so forgive that I can't organize as well as you did.

    That aside, none of your examples of benefits from those tools are changes to app functionality. You seem not to comprehend (or, if you do comprehend, you refuse to acknowledge) a distiction between what an app's functionality is, and how a user interacts with an app. They're very different concepts. If you're really not getting it, I unfortunatelt have neither the time nor desire to try to help you understand the difference; but it's not subtle, particularly to a programmer. I suggest you rethink it a bit more, though I realize you likely won't. If you simply refuse to acknowledge the distinction, then I think I see who the actual time waster is here.

    As to wasting the devs time. They get paid to do their jobs.
  • snoboredca
    33 posts Member
    edited May 10
    kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    I'm not as good with the quote leveling as you are so please forgive my lack of organization here.

    None of the outcomes you described alter in-game functionality. You seem unable to discern the difference between "an app's functions (functionality)" and a "user's interaction with the app." Or if you discern the difference you're just not willing to acknowledge it. There is (a) a program's functions; vs (b) tools users can use outside the game to make them more efficient when using the game's provided features without altering how the game operates. Airplane mode is not (b), it is (a). If you're really having a hard time seeing the difference, I suggest you spend more time thinking about it, because it isn't a subtle distinction -- particularly not to anyone who has done much programming. If you're simply being obstinate despite seeing the difference, then I know who the real time waster is.

    As for the devs -- they get paid to do their jobs, and I don't mind asking them to do so; much like many guilds have done with respect to concerns about improper matchmaking algorithms or QOL features.

    The only good arguments that the practice is ok that I've seen so far are: (1) the notion that the devs must certainly be aware of the practice by now and have done nothing to curtail or condemn it, and thus it is reasonable for users to infer that they are "ok" with it (or intended for that outcome to be available to savvy users); and (2) in the absence of clear guidance, community standards dictate a certain set of "unwritten" rules, and by those standards, this practice is not considered cheating because everyone just agrees it isn't.
  • kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    Getting frustrated that my responses keep getting "lost" due to needing to be "approved" after I've edited them a couple times. Apparently "editing one's thoughts" is also not an intended feature of this app.
  • kello_511
    1104 posts Member
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    I'm not as good with the quote leveling as you are so please forgive my lack of organization here.

    None of the outcomes you described alter in-game functionality. You seem unable to discern the difference between "an app's functions (functionality)" and a "user's interaction with the app." Or if you discern the difference you're just not willing to acknowledge it. There is (a) a program's functions; vs (b) tools users can use outside the game to make them more efficient when using the game's provided features without altering how the game operates. Airplane mode is not (b), it is (a). If you're really having a hard time seeing the difference, I suggest you spend more time thinking about it, because it isn't a subtle distinction -- particularly not to anyone who has done much programming. If you're simply being obstinate despite seeing the difference, then I know who the real time waster is.

    As for the devs -- they get paid to do their jobs, and I don't mind asking them to do so; much like many guilds have done with respect to concerns about improper matchmaking algorithms or QOL features.

    You’re saying that the game does not provide an option to retreat when it isn’t your turn. Therefore, despite the fact that it’s been done and discussed openly since the game first came out, it must be cheating.

    I gave you other examples of things the game doesn’t allow you to do but that are clearly not cheating. The common thread, and the point I am trying to make, is that there is an obvious correlation between these things. i.e; The devs haven’t spoken out against them and it is simply understood that there is no point in building things into the game when they are done well externally already.

    You seem bent on arguing my examples rather than the fact that the silence on this matter (despite it happening very openly) is not the same as the mod lock bug.

    But I’m being obstinate?

    I’m pretty sure I figured out what’s really going on here - some people know that they took advantage of the mod lock bug - which was clearly an exploit - and are not trying to muddy the waters about what does and does not constitute cheating.
  • TVF
    17079 posts Member
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    Getting frustrated that my responses keep getting "lost" due to needing to be "approved" after I've edited them a couple times. Apparently "editing one's thoughts" is also not an intended feature of this app.

    That's the spam filter. Don't do too many edits too quickly. And PM a mod to get it restored.
    TVF's guild is recruiting. Say hi in our Discord! https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    Trying this one last time before I give up.

    None of the outcomes you described are a modification of the game's functionality. They are tools available outside the game to make a player better able to utilize the game's in-app functionality WITHOUT MODIFYING THE GAME'S FUNCTIONALITY. You are conflating "modifying a user's behavior in the game" with "modifying the game itself." That's not a subtle distinction. No one is arguing that the devs never intended for everyone to play the game solely with tools provided in the game; we are arguing that the devs do not intend for players to find "tricks" that actually change how the game works.


    That I've seen, the only two arguments that are convincing about this tactic being acceptable are the following: (1) The devs know about the issue and do nothing to address it, thus it is reasonable to assume they do not condemn it; and (2) in the absence of a clearly states rule on the issue, community customs and norms dictate the "unwritten" rules of the game and there is widespread acceptance of this practice within the community.

    Argument (2) alone wouldn't convince me it was ok ("everybody does it" on its own is rarely a good argument), but (2) combined with (1) is fairly convincing, if you ask me.

    That said, as for wasting people's time, the devs get paid to do their jobs. I don't mind asking them to do so.

  • kello_511 wrote: »

    You’re saying that the game does not provide an option to retreat when it isn’t your turn. Therefore, despite the fact that it’s been done and discussed openly since the game first came out, it must be cheating.

    I'm absolutely not arguing that. in fact, on multiple occasions I have acknowledge that this is a very good argument and a convincing one. Just because I disagree with one of your arguments, does not mean I disagree with your conclusion. There are several arguments. Some are better than others. This is one of the better ones.
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I gave you other examples of things the game doesn’t allow you to do but that are clearly not cheating. The common thread, and the point I am trying to make, is that there is an obvious correlation between these things. i.e; The devs haven’t spoken out against them and it is simply understood that there is no point in building things into the game when they are done well externally already.

    The game doesn't allow me to breathe air, but you don't think I'm arguing that breathing while playing is cheating do you? BTW, you're now combining two arguments that were separate and distinct and blending them into the one that is the stronger of the two.
    kello_511 wrote: »
    You seem bent on arguing my examples rather than the fact that the silence on this matter (despite it happening very openly) is not the same as the mod lock bug.

    It would only seem that way to someone who hasn't seen my prior posts acknowledging the opposite.
    kello_511 wrote: »
    But I’m being obstinate?

    I genuinely can't tell.
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I’m pretty sure I figured out what’s really going on here - some people know that they took advantage of the mod lock bug - which was clearly an exploit - and are not trying to muddy the waters about what does and does not constitute cheating.

    I can't speak for others, but I literally have no idea what the Mod Lock bug is, so I can't say if that applies to other people in the thread. I genuinely and solely am literally just trying to make up my mind as to whether I think Airplane mode in TW is cheating, and then how I'm going to make my arguments to my other guild leaders.

    (fingers crossed I got the quote levels right).
  • TVF wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    I hope you guys aren’t using discord for your guild management, or swgoh.gg, or any of the bots or the grand ivory mod tool either then...
    None of these are built into the game so using them is a cheat right?

    Wrong. None of those things alters functionality of the app.

    It gives you a level of guild organization that the app does not provide a function for.
    It gives you information about your opponents that the app does not intend for you to have so easily.
    It allows you to manage your mods I a way outside of what the game intended.
    snoboredca wrote: »
    kello_511 wrote: »
    Also, I’m not sure why this discussion is really happening.
    I don’t think that any of you who are arguing that “airplane mode is a cheat on or with the mod exploit” actually believe that, do you?
    What point are you really trying to make with this argument?

    My guild has a strict no cheating policy. We're aware that our opponents in TW are using this technique. We're trying to decide if we will use the technique. If we decide it is a cheat, or that the best arguments cut in favor of it being more likely a cheat than not, we will not use it and we will likely request the devs to issue guidance.

    Don't be so cynical. This is absolutely a real point for some people.

    If this is honestly what you think, then you should totally waste the devs time by reporting every guild you face if you suspect they used airplane mode.

    Getting frustrated that my responses keep getting "lost" due to needing to be "approved" after I've edited them a couple times. Apparently "editing one's thoughts" is also not an intended feature of this app.

    That's the spam filter. Don't do too many edits too quickly. And PM a mod to get it restored.

    Thanks! They showed up so now you get to see three drafts of the same reply. Written with increasing levels of frustration. :)
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