Change my mind

Keoni
14 posts Member
I say the arena is still totally fixed. For five battles I’ve intentionally matched my opponent character for character with higher level and geared characters. For example my last battle was an 82,000 point team versus a matching 70,000 point team. Dooku , palp, maul, Sidious, trooper. Letting the game do all of fighting for me I was solidly beat with zero kills. As I said five seperate tries with five separate matching teams over the last week and pretty much the same thing happens. I say when it’s apples to apples it’s rigged, change my mind.

Replies

  • NicWester
    8928 posts Member
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    Keoni wrote: »
    Letting the game do all of fighting for me I was solidly beat with zero kills.

    You have no mind to change.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
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    Lol when you believe that the offense AI is trained to beat the defense AI
  • Tabub
    50 posts Member
    edited May 2019
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    So then don’t let the game do the fighting for you? If you want to win on offense than don’t auto it.

    Removed unnecessary insult ~Rtas
    Post edited by EA_Rtas on
  • Options
    Unless you are really lazy, dont use ai for arena.

    Get revan, youll see why.
    Get good and get a Revan. Ryanwhales
  • Options
    ? How is this the **** post? He's not saying I always run on auto and why do I lose? He's testing an exact match squad that is more powerful, and running it on auto to take out the variable of individual skill and strategy. His point being that technically, the mirror match with the ai supposedly on par both ways should result in more wins than losses for his squad statistically due to the significant power boost his holds.. Everyone knows there is rng obviously, so if he had said I should have won every time, then give him crap. But he's saying he is 0-5 when statistically, he should be able to win more than half the time. People who answer by trolling aren't being helpful. Just save your negativity and kindly direct in inwards. Having said all this, to OP, although I often feel that way as well, quite simply, you cannot come to any conclusions with such a small sample size. I know.... I wouldn't want to hear it either. But the truth is that you would need a SIGNIFICANT number of runs to actually be able to point to that as a conclusion. I mean from an actual "proof" with data standpoint to say it factually. I am not refuting your point at all, but let me play devils advocate if you really want to be convinced. Rng... Enough said. But even if you match the squads exactly, you would have to basically have the exact same gear mods, or stronger by a decent margin, as they are literally make or break. Yes your score is higher, but honestly, I think gp is just a brutal formula that really doesn't line up anything in terms of strength. I've had way underpowered squads absolutely destroy much stronger ones, and vice versa. Mostly based on synergy or the fact they have a buff or mechanism that messes with the others. Lets say that you are certain that everyone of your mods is superior..... Well you could have higher stats, but the other squad could have a specific stat boost that is ideal, or triggers some kind of ability, synergy etc.... That would render that higher stat a non issue in terms of outcome. Etc etc.
  • Naraic
    2243 posts Member
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    @Keoni did you compare mods. It sounds to me like you picked a squad the match the opponent and had bad mods on your team.
  • Kokie
    1338 posts Member
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    It's all in the mods....and yes letting AI control works so well....just ask skynet
  • Options
    Naraic wrote: »
    @Keoni did you compare mods. It sounds to me like you picked a squad the match the opponent and had bad mods on your team.

    I agree. I've wiped teams that out geared me but had vastly inferior mods. Gp wise they had a 10k advantage but because of poor mods they were easy kills. If you're +/- 5 speed on all the toons where speed matters with both using mod sets that provide some benefit (rather than an ad hoc collection of mods that give no set bonus) then the 10k advantage is more meaningful.

    I'd also agree you need a larger sample size than 5. The sample size is still within the realm of just rng (you can in theory flip a coin and get heads 5 times in a row). I'd say you need at least 50 matches, ideally 100+ before you can rule out rng.

  • Options
    I am too much of a noob to speak meaningfully about the encounters being fixed. I am hopeful the new match algorithm does a better job than the old one. My Arena Rating bounces around about 2500. My last match I was pitted against 400. Care to guess how that went? What has impressed me is how squirrelly things often go. Ex:. People join, and set defenses, then never attack. Ex: I go 3 rounds. 1 short win. 1 draw, rated a win for me, based on GP, and 1 CRUSHING loss. End result, I come in 2nd overall. WTH? This has to be a based on a mixed matrix involving more than just the 4 players I can see.
  • Blackbeardpepe
    1481 posts Member
    edited May 2019
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    Ryanwhales wrote: »
    Unless you are really lazy, dont use ai for arena.

    Get revan, youll see why.

    Lol Jedi revan mirror matches. I'll hit auto and win or time out. If I fought the exact team manually...I may lose. :D
  • Jubai
    112 posts Member
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    Nothing to work out here.
    On games like this the enemy AI will have have boosted crit and accuracy.
    It's nothing new and has been the way games with pvp work to cancel out the advantage you have by you not using AI to battle.
    The developers never admit this but then on most games people dont even realise so tbh the devs dont get asked much.
  • Rmaxtpmx
    294 posts Member
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    It's amazing how many people ignore mods in this game. Since you didn't mention mods, i can only assume you've paid no attention to them. Do that before don't any kind of AI testing. Plus as someone mentioned already, 5 battles is very insignificant. If only science was that easy.
  • Options
    ? How is this the **** post? He's not saying I always run on auto and why do I lose? He's testing an exact match squad that is more powerful, and running it on auto to take out the variable of individual skill and strategy. His point being that technically, the mirror match with the ai supposedly on par both ways should result in more wins than losses for his squad statistically due to the significant power boost his holds.. Everyone knows there is rng obviously, so if he had said I should have won every time, then give him crap. But he's saying he is 0-5 when statistically, he should be able to win more than half the time. People who answer by trolling aren't being helpful. Just save your negativity and kindly direct in inwards. Having said all this, to OP, although I often feel that way as well, quite simply, you cannot come to any conclusions with such a small sample size. I know.... I wouldn't want to hear it either. But the truth is that you would need a SIGNIFICANT number of runs to actually be able to point to that as a conclusion. I mean from an actual "proof" with data standpoint to say it factually. I am not refuting your point at all, but let me play devils advocate if you really want to be convinced. Rng... Enough said. But even if you match the squads exactly, you would have to basically have the exact same gear mods, or stronger by a decent margin, as they are literally make or break. Yes your score is higher, but honestly, I think gp is just a brutal formula that really doesn't line up anything in terms of strength. I've had way underpowered squads absolutely destroy much stronger ones, and vice versa. Mostly based on synergy or the fact they have a buff or mechanism that messes with the others. Lets say that you are certain that everyone of your mods is superior..... Well you could have higher stats, but the other squad could have a specific stat boost that is ideal, or triggers some kind of ability, synergy etc.... That would render that higher stat a non issue in terms of outcome. Etc etc.

    It is clear he forgot to take into account speed.
  • Options
    Tabub wrote: »
    So then don’t let the game do the fighting for you? If you want to win on offense than don’t auto it, this is the dumbest post I’ve seen in a while.

    Tabub, I can make 1 far more dumb.
  • TaT1_
    1 posts Member
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    Mods?... speed especially for arena... really there's more to it than just power vs power.
  • Options
    Keoni wrote: »
    I say the arena is still totally fixed. For five battles I’ve intentionally matched my opponent character for character with higher level and geared characters. For example my last battle was an 82,000 point team versus a matching 70,000 point team. Dooku , palp, maul, Sidious, trooper.

    Might be a fair point, but power by itself is a meaningless number. As others have said, mods make a huge difference. At the least to compare mirror matches, you should have the comparative speed, offense, crit chance, prot., And health for each character as well as if there are zeta differences.
  • Options
    Also, change your team. Everyone else said basically everything, but change your leader to Palpatine. He is far superior.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Options
    I am too much of a noob to speak meaningfully about the encounters being fixed. I am hopeful the new match algorithm does a better job than the old one. My Arena Rating bounces around about 2500. My last match I was pitted against 400. Care to guess how that went? What has impressed me is how squirrelly things often go. Ex:. People join, and set defenses, then never attack. Ex: I go 3 rounds. 1 short win. 1 draw, rated a win for me, based on GP, and 1 CRUSHING loss. End result, I come in 2nd overall. WTH? This has to be a based on a mixed matrix involving more than just the 4 players I can see.

    There are 8 players in your group and rewards are based on how many rounds you win. That’s it. If you go 2-1 you get the rewards for the 2nd-4th bracket. Whether the game calls you 2nd or 4th (which is just another tie broken by GP) is irrelevant because the rewards are identical.
  • Juzz
    366 posts Member
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    You got to the next conclusion:
    AI is mainly stupid and cannot take full advantage of character kits or enemies that should be cleared before others.

    And, from my experience , it uses different algorithms on attack and defense
    Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain
  • Options
    Nihion wrote: »
    Lol when you believe that the offense AI is trained to beat the defense AI

    IKR. I've been wanting to make a thread that requests during autoplay for Ewok Elder to get a text bubble that pops up reading, "Why my staff no work?" when he tries to revive someone that can't be revived. It's probably the dumbest part of AI.
  • Nihion
    3340 posts Member
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    I should add, OP you are correct in assuming that five tries is next to nothing for evidence here. These people might start paying attention if you had somewhere near 50 tries.
  • Mephisto_style
    5724 posts Member
    edited May 2019
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    Nihion wrote: »
    I should add, OP you are correct in assuming that five tries is next to nothing for evidence here. These people might start paying attention if you had somewhere near 50 tries.

    n values have no value. What herasy you speek?
  • Options
    1. AI offense is not equal AI defense
    2. speed and mods
    3. Not my experience so far (my gp 3,6) 3 years of playing...
  • Options
    ? How is this the **** post? He's not saying I always run on auto and why do I lose? He's testing an exact match squad that is more powerful, and running it on auto to take out the variable of individual skill and strategy. His point being that technically, the mirror match with the ai supposedly on par both ways should result in more wins than losses for his squad statistically due to the significant power boost his holds.. Everyone knows there is rng obviously, so if he had said I should have won every time, then give him crap. But he's saying he is 0-5 when statistically, he should be able to win more than half the time. People who answer by trolling aren't being helpful. Just save your negativity and kindly direct in inwards. Having said all this, to OP, although I often feel that way as well, quite simply, you cannot come to any conclusions with such a small sample size. I know.... I wouldn't want to hear it either. But the truth is that you would need a SIGNIFICANT number of runs to actually be able to point to that as a conclusion. I mean from an actual "proof" with data standpoint to say it factually. I am not refuting your point at all, but let me play devils advocate if you really want to be convinced. Rng... Enough said. But even if you match the squads exactly, you would have to basically have the exact same gear mods, or stronger by a decent margin, as they are literally make or break. Yes your score is higher, but honestly, I think gp is just a brutal formula that really doesn't line up anything in terms of strength. I've had way underpowered squads absolutely destroy much stronger ones, and vice versa. Mostly based on synergy or the fact they have a buff or mechanism that messes with the others. Lets say that you are certain that everyone of your mods is superior..... Well you could have higher stats, but the other squad could have a specific stat boost that is ideal, or triggers some kind of ability, synergy etc.... That would render that higher stat a non issue in terms of outcome. Etc etc.

    Asking for trolls to stop trolling on the internet is like asking Donald Trump for his tax returns.
  • Options
    If I can add a tangible reason for the difference (other than the obvious one - who has the better mods???) then remember to consider that there are two ways in which auto battle can be used on offense. With and without targeting.
    By default on offense, when you click auto the AI will use targeting and all attacks will be directed at 1 character. This targeting will priorities 1st the character that was selected when auto battle is clicked (which is the leader when you enter battle and don't select someone else) then once the targeted character is defeated targeting will proceed to leader -> front row left -> front row right -> back row right -> back row left. This progression is disrupted by taunting tanks but will resume once the tank is defeated, targeting will not switch from the tank until it is defeated however whether it is taunting or not.
    If you click the targeted character, while on auto, targeting will be disabled and the offense AI will use the same heuristics as the defense AI to select targets. Non-targeted AI initially chooses target randomly (apart from characters with specific targeting such as the Revan brothers). Once with each subsequent attack there is a probability (unknown to me but ~20 to 30% in my experience) that the target will randomly change to another random enemy.
    When using auto it's normally advisable to use targeted auto battle but be careful to select yourself the best character to target. If you don't choose wisely which character to target then the defense AI with it's untargeted attacking could very easily have the advantage. If you deselect the target while using auto you will have a more fair comparison (but always the slight advantage as you have to choose who your first target is when you turn on auto battle).
    In addition, abilities that target characters on your own team will use heuristics such as "lowest combined health and protection" or other metrics to determine which character to target. If you are modded or geared differently to the opposition team these abilities will be used differently. It is in your control how you use this to your advantage / disadvantage.
    Finally, can I suggest you and your opponent switch to palp lead? It's much better than Dooku's when running sith ;)

    Best of luck!
  • Options
    Keoni wrote: »
    Yeah the insults is all great, fine and expected. I understand mods very well and that’s not the issue. It’s not that I can’t win . Point is I was matching up the same but making sure they were stronger characters (yes to include mods). I figured by saying how far ahead in points on average of the other teams everyone would understand that I also had as good or better mods on those characters as well.

    0f course I’ve been noticing the AI seeming to always have the quite the advantage from the beginning. Five tries for a test isn’t very many but its pretty hard and takes a lot of time to come across an opponent with the exact same characters and also have five characters that are better than his, and/or be able to switch mods up so they are. It’s only five tries but I think I see a trend and what I’m saying is I’m shocked at how overwhelmingly I was beat. My AI with stronger characters versus the game/opponents AI.

    Did you factor in turn order? Makes a big difference with certain team comps. Basically decided DR matches at this point, along with a little bit of RNG.

    Dooku, Palp, Maul, Sidious, Trooper - you don't have a dispel there so if they have a faster trooper with high tenacity that resist shock and you have a slow trooper with low tenacity that gets shocked, it's very easy to see how that matchup goes sideways given that the AI will largely be executing the same actions in the same order.

    There are so many complicated interactions between teams and actions within a team, that making a blanket statement like "arena is fixed because my AI controlled team doesn't beat their AI controlled team" is basically meaningless. There was one opponent in a JKR mirror I could always beat on auto, and one I could never beat on auto in the old JKR mirror. Why? Because...turn order. AI is running all three teams the same way, turn order and speeds matched up in my favor against one opponent and against me in the other.
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