Grand Arena Matchups

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  • Scuttlebutt
    1190 posts Member
    Dk_rek wrote: »

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Sorry, But it took me 3 years of hard grinding to get to 4.3 million GP, taking my vitamins saying my prayers drinking my milk to follow the TB advice of devs (when released) to help my guild.

    You don't just lean that out in 2, 4, 6, 8, months... fluff guys can't compete and never will be able to compete..because the people destroying them now will graduate eventually out of your GP range and the NEWER players who never fluffed rosters to begin with will eventually begin to climb into your GP range with 0 fluff and make matters worse....

    In fact this is the best it's ever going to be for fluff guys (last place) lol. (can't get worse anyway)

    GA championships..... we will see what they roll out.... who knows maybe at the bottom ranks fluff guys can play fluff guys and have a chance to win one here and there.

    I think you missed the point of my comment. The term “stop the bleeding” just means not making the situation worse than it already is. Sure, you can’t drop your GP (outside of dropping mods), but you can prevent further unnecessary fluff like activating ships that you won’t use anywhere. It’s not a good solution, but it does make your situation “less bad” moving forward lol.
  • Besteve wrote: »
    My favorite part about these are people reference something that was a good choice at the time they made it. Then people say it’s ok to be penalized for it now because you benefited from it then. How about the game is developed around not penalizing previous “good” choices of the past? Last my favorite response is from scuttlebutt because they knew all the people who would comment on this who don’t understand logic.

    So, how would the game evolve if "previous good choices aren't penalized"? If the meta doesn't change, what would be the point of unlocking characters?
  • Rath_Tarr
    4944 posts Member
    Hmmm. Sounds like they're going to try a sliding scale variant of the 6k GP participation floor used un TW.
  • Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Hmmm. Sounds like they're going to try a sliding scale variant of the 6k GP participation floor used un TW.

    Did I read that right? The current system has led to very few blowouts?

    For me, about 1 in 6 matches has been close since they removed ship GP from non-ship GA. Scores were closer in some matches (the not close matches), so it might not have looked like a blowout, but putting everything on defense and leaving nothing for offense just prevents the opposing team from a full board clear...I do it too :smile: . That’s not a close match.

  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Rath_Tarr wrote: »
    Hmmm. Sounds like they're going to try a sliding scale variant of the 6k GP participation floor used un TW.

    Did I read that right? The current system has led to very few blowouts?

    For me, about 1 in 6 matches has been close since they removed ship GP from non-ship GA. Scores were closer in some matches (the not close matches), so it might not have looked like a blowout, but putting everything on defense and leaving nothing for offense just prevents the opposing team from a full board clear...I do it too :smile: . That’s not a close match.

    You (and anyone posting here) have a very, very small percentage of the total number of rounds tracked.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH

  • Did I read that right? The current system has led to very few blowouts?

    For me, about 1 in 6 matches has been close since they removed ship GP from non-ship GA. Scores were closer in some matches (the not close matches), so it might not have looked like a blowout, but putting everything on defense and leaving nothing for offense just prevents the opposing team from a full board clear...I do it too :smile: . That’s not a close match.

    Way to focus on the important part of the dev post, lmfao. Weren't you complaining earlier in the thread about the match-up system? Some people have to find the negative in everything, I guess.
  • I have 5M gp but only 33 zetas. I used to spend a lot and gear up all characters just for collections (including g12 jawas!) With GA released, I have been in big disadvantage and often being matched with players with 60+ zetas... I think it'd be good if they can make zeta as a factor besides gp. (match people with similar gp and zeta.)
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    EgoSlayer wrote: »
    There is a difference between not performing optimally, and being punished for spending resources. GA is the latter. Until the introduction of GA there is *no* game mode where expanding your roster and spending resources penalized you.

    Fluff could also give you a harder opponent in TW just like it does in GA. It's not a new thing. It's amazing how some players appear surprised by this effect.
    The developers intention is that players should *never* be penalized for spending resources to improve your characters.

    It seems like you misinterpreted the announcements regarding the paper zombie situation. That announcement said, that a character should always become stronger / more usefull, when you spend ressources on it. That's not the same thing as what you claim.
    Again - a fundamental difference between not performing optimally and an actual penalty for having GP. 10 8K GP characters does not in any way compete with a 5 character 80K team in GA - yet GA thinks they are the same.

    GA matches by GP. GA doesn't match players to create even matches/battles. GA doesn't 'think' it's the same.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member

    The changes will happen with the introduction of GA championships. They will be tiered and also have different reward tiers, according to the road ahead post. Seems fair enough.
  • EgoSlayer
    140 posts Member
    edited May 2019
    Waqui wrote: »
    EgoSlayer wrote: »
    There is a difference between not performing optimally, and being punished for spending resources. GA is the latter. Until the introduction of GA there is *no* game mode where expanding your roster and spending resources penalized you.

    Fluff could also give you a harder opponent in TW just like it does in GA. It's not a new thing. It's amazing how some players appear surprised by this effect.
    The developers intention is that players should *never* be penalized for spending resources to improve your characters.

    It seems like you misinterpreted the announcements regarding the paper zombie situation. That announcement said, that a character should always become stronger / more usefull, when you spend ressources on it. That's not the same thing as what you claim.
    Again - a fundamental difference between not performing optimally and an actual penalty for having GP. 10 8K GP characters does not in any way compete with a 5 character 80K team in GA - yet GA thinks they are the same.

    GA matches by GP. GA doesn't match players to create even matches/battles. GA doesn't 'think' it's the same.

    TW "Fluff" nets higher rewards and is distributed across 25-50 rosters and is a game mode where everyone on average only needs 8-10 teams total so the majority of every TW player's roster is "fluff" because it's never needed. GA players often need that many just for defense from a single roster, and then likewise matching number for attacking. It's not even remotely the same.

    The Paper zombie thing is you misinterpreting what they are saying with a myopic focus on the zombie itself and not the core tenants of the game they also refer to in that same quote.

    And 80K GP is 80K GP in a GA - so yes it does think that 10 8K characters are the exact same at 5 16K characters because GA doesn't look at rosters and treats it the exact same for match making purposes.

    But it sounds like they are finally changing it because GP is a poor measure for matchmaking. And they know it, so its getting addressed. They knew it in TW as well, because they added other criteria to the TW matchmaking that included some limited roster comparisons as part of the matching shortly after it's release that was using GP only.
  • WEDWAY
    19 posts Member
    Get ready for a wave of comments about how GA matchups are fair and nothing needs to change, get gud, you shouldn’t have wasted resources on fluff, and how this matchmaking is nothing new since TW using the same thing.

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Well, it happened. There are so many biased opinions that just want to prove why I am wrong. It is a waste to post problems on a site like this. Thank you to those who tried to support my post. I am not going to pull apart any responses to comment on every sentence. No matter what I write, these are the type of people who will only support their opinions and not try to understand a situation that someone else is experiencing. In some cases, I think people just don't understand the issue. I literally stated,"My son cannot play GA. The matches are way out of his league." Yet, someone responds, "Your son can play." Wow. I have learned my lesson. I was wrong to post on this site. Enjoy the game everyone.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member

    The problem with this "fix" is that they still seemingly think GP is a meaningful component of determining "battle effectiveness" of a roster. It really isn't. A six dot mod counts the same in GP - whether it has tenacity secondaries or +25 speed secondaries. A zeta on DR counts the same as a zeta on QGJ.

    The matchup issues (teams facing DR/Malak when they have neither, teams with JKR facing teams without him) will only be fixed when one of two things happens:

    1) The way GP is calculated more accurately reflects the effectiveness of a roster by accounting for power creep and better kits of newer characters.

    2) They lean more heavily into mods, g12 and characters in determining matchups (the way many Discord bots already do) and away from GP all together.

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    ^Agreed. Short version - even and fair are two different things.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.

    How does this encourage people who have DR/Malak (or whatever the current OP characters are) to improve if they are consistently matched up against inferior rosters, so all they have to do is out their OP team on defense and relax?

    I presume that CG wants the different game modes to function differently. Not simply have every single game mode boil down to a "Malak check". If their intent is as you suggest (i.e. make everyone have Malak or lose) then that is really poor game design, as it simply boils the game down to "do you have the recent OP team?" - just changes the conditions under which the question is asked. That would remove all enjoyment from the game - for both those that can answer yes and those that have to answer no.

    I've been on both sides. I've had GA matchups where I have JKR, and the other player doesn't. I won easily and found it terrible boring, as it was a forgone conclusion. The same holds true when facing rosters that have DR/Malak when I have neither. Unless they play absolutely horribly (or forget to play at all), it's simply a boring foregone conclusion for both of us.

    I can't speak for other players, but I spend money to support a game when I am enjoying myself. GA, when the matchups are uneven, is not enjoyable - no matter which side of the advantage you are on. If you of the opinion that GA should be a boring, foregone conclusion, to somehow encourage spending, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Especially when the rewards for a several day event are so paltry, it doesn't do that.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • TVF
    36527 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.

    How does this encourage people who have DR/Malak (or whatever the current OP characters are) to improve if they are consistently matched up against inferior rosters, so all they have to do is out their OP team on defense and relax?

    1) I don't always face non-DR/Malak rosters.
    2) I won't always have a DR/Malak advantage.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.

    How does this encourage people who have DR/Malak (or whatever the current OP characters are) to improve if they are consistently matched up against inferior rosters, so all they have to do is out their OP team on defense and relax?

    I presume that CG wants the different game modes to function differently. Not simply have every single game mode boil down to a "Malak check". If their intent is as you suggest (i.e. make everyone have Malak or lose) then that is really poor game design, as it simply boils the game down to "do you have the recent OP team?" - just changes the conditions under which the question is asked. That would remove all enjoyment from the game - for both those that can answer yes and those that have to answer no.

    I've been on both sides. I've had GA matchups where I have JKR, and the other player doesn't. I won easily and found it terrible boring, as it was a forgone conclusion. The same holds true when facing rosters that have DR/Malak when I have neither. Unless they play absolutely horribly (or forget to play at all), it's simply a boring foregone conclusion for both of us.

    I can't speak for other players, but I spend money to support a game when I am enjoying myself. GA, when the matchups are uneven, is not enjoyable - no matter which side of the advantage you are on. If you of the opinion that GA should be a boring, foregone conclusion, to somehow encourage spending, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Especially when the rewards for a several day event are so paltry, it doesn't do that.

    Do you think that every person with Malak now goes 3-0 in every GA? Or do you recognize that it’s not that simplistic? There were what, like 15,000 people that got Malak? (I might be mixing that number up with DR but it’s some number of thousands.) People that got Malak will face others who got him in addition to people who didn’t get him. People who got him can still lose GA due to a variety of factors. In fact one of the most talked about subjects people in my guild have gotten excited about lately is beating people who had DR and/or Malak when they didn’t.

    People with Malak are encouraged to improve because they know they might face somebody else who also has him. They are encouraged to improve because they know one team is not sufficient to guarantee wins against otherwise strong opponents. And to the extent that they do win matches more easily, they are encouraged to shell out money and/or saved resources again next time for the next OP character in order to retain that advantage.

    Also, there is a lot of room between “as even as possible” and “every match is a foregone conclusion.” The devs have announced an intention to make the matchmaking more even than it currently is. That can be done without making it “as even as possible” like you demand.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.

    How does this encourage people who have DR/Malak (or whatever the current OP characters are) to improve if they are consistently matched up against inferior rosters, so all they have to do is out their OP team on defense and relax?

    I presume that CG wants the different game modes to function differently. Not simply have every single game mode boil down to a "Malak check". If their intent is as you suggest (i.e. make everyone have Malak or lose) then that is really poor game design, as it simply boils the game down to "do you have the recent OP team?" - just changes the conditions under which the question is asked. That would remove all enjoyment from the game - for both those that can answer yes and those that have to answer no.

    I've been on both sides. I've had GA matchups where I have JKR, and the other player doesn't. I won easily and found it terrible boring, as it was a forgone conclusion. The same holds true when facing rosters that have DR/Malak when I have neither. Unless they play absolutely horribly (or forget to play at all), it's simply a boring foregone conclusion for both of us.

    I can't speak for other players, but I spend money to support a game when I am enjoying myself. GA, when the matchups are uneven, is not enjoyable - no matter which side of the advantage you are on. If you of the opinion that GA should be a boring, foregone conclusion, to somehow encourage spending, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Especially when the rewards for a several day event are so paltry, it doesn't do that.

    Do you think that every person with Malak now goes 3-0 in every GA? Or do you recognize that it’s not that simplistic? There were what, like 15,000 people that got Malak? (I might be mixing that number up with DR but it’s some number of thousands.) People that got Malak will face others who got him in addition to people who didn’t get him. People who got him can still lose GA due to a variety of factors. In fact one of the most talked about subjects people in my guild have gotten excited about lately is beating people who had DR and/or Malak when they didn’t.

    People with Malak are encouraged to improve because they know they might face somebody else who also has him. They are encouraged to improve because they know one team is not sufficient to guarantee wins against otherwise strong opponents. And to the extent that they do win matches more easily, they are encouraged to shell out money and/or saved resources again next time for the next OP character in order to retain that advantage.

    Also, there is a lot of room between “as even as possible” and “every match is a foregone conclusion.” The devs have announced an intention to make the matchmaking more even than it currently is. That can be done without making it “as even as possible” like you demand.
    I think we can be done with this topic. We're splitting hairs now. You seem to think that the devs announced intention to make matchmaking more even somehow doesn't include my points regarding Malak. And on the other hand seem content to cast my points in the most hyperbolic extremes you can come up with.

    I am pleased that you at least acknowledged the developers intention to make GA more even - as the DR/Malak situation in GA is clearly the most glaring (and most posted about) example.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »

    All of that presumes they actually care enough about GA to make the matchups as even as possible. Which is also questionable.

    It also presumes they believe making the matchups as even as possible is an appropriate goal, which is entirely separate from whether they “care enough.” I believe that would be a terrible goal.

    Why would making fair matchups be a terrible goal? It has always been my understanding that making the matchups as even as possible was the goal of GA. GA was seemingly meant to be a 1 on 1 version of TW - which, also seeks to make the matches even.

    Uneven matchups and "keep up with the Jones'" is the function of the two arenas.

    We’ve had this conversation a dozen times, do you really not remember the answer? First of all you said “as even as possible,” which you are now conflating with “as fair as possible,” but those are not the same thing. Arena simply matches people on a different metric than GA (time played vs GP). Different matching metrics can be fair without creating matches among identical rosters.

    My opinion is that making matches as even as possible (which can only be accomplished by matching people with basically identical rosters, since anything less will continue to lead to “fairness” complaints) is terrible because it means I can never improve my chances of winning by improving my roster. If I plan really well and am one of #the882 can I be excited that I will do better in GA? Nope, I’ll only face other people who got Malak too, whereas I’d I hadn’t bothered I wouldn’t have had to face him. If I get that unicorn +25 speed mod can I be excited that it will help me do better in GA? Nope, I will get paired against somebody with the same number of +25 speed mods I have. For me, personally, this would remove a lot of enjoyment.

    How does this encourage people who have DR/Malak (or whatever the current OP characters are) to improve if they are consistently matched up against inferior rosters, so all they have to do is out their OP team on defense and relax?

    I presume that CG wants the different game modes to function differently. Not simply have every single game mode boil down to a "Malak check". If their intent is as you suggest (i.e. make everyone have Malak or lose) then that is really poor game design, as it simply boils the game down to "do you have the recent OP team?" - just changes the conditions under which the question is asked. That would remove all enjoyment from the game - for both those that can answer yes and those that have to answer no.

    I've been on both sides. I've had GA matchups where I have JKR, and the other player doesn't. I won easily and found it terrible boring, as it was a forgone conclusion. The same holds true when facing rosters that have DR/Malak when I have neither. Unless they play absolutely horribly (or forget to play at all), it's simply a boring foregone conclusion for both of us.

    I can't speak for other players, but I spend money to support a game when I am enjoying myself. GA, when the matchups are uneven, is not enjoyable - no matter which side of the advantage you are on. If you of the opinion that GA should be a boring, foregone conclusion, to somehow encourage spending, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Especially when the rewards for a several day event are so paltry, it doesn't do that.

    Do you think that every person with Malak now goes 3-0 in every GA? Or do you recognize that it’s not that simplistic? There were what, like 15,000 people that got Malak? (I might be mixing that number up with DR but it’s some number of thousands.) People that got Malak will face others who got him in addition to people who didn’t get him. People who got him can still lose GA due to a variety of factors. In fact one of the most talked about subjects people in my guild have gotten excited about lately is beating people who had DR and/or Malak when they didn’t.

    People with Malak are encouraged to improve because they know they might face somebody else who also has him. They are encouraged to improve because they know one team is not sufficient to guarantee wins against otherwise strong opponents. And to the extent that they do win matches more easily, they are encouraged to shell out money and/or saved resources again next time for the next OP character in order to retain that advantage.

    Also, there is a lot of room between “as even as possible” and “every match is a foregone conclusion.” The devs have announced an intention to make the matchmaking more even than it currently is. That can be done without making it “as even as possible” like you demand.
    I think we can be done with this topic. We're splitting hairs now. You seem to think that the devs announced intention to make matchmaking more even somehow doesn't include my points regarding Malak. And on the other hand seem content to cast my points in the most hyperbolic extremes you can come up with.

    I am pleased that you at least acknowledged the developers intention to make GA more even - as the DR/Malak situation in GA is clearly the most glaring (and most posted about) example.

    I very strongly disagree that this is a matter of splitting hairs. Those hyperbolic extremes are direct quotes from your posts. I don’t want matches to be as even as possible. I think that goal is terrible. That’s where my participation in this conversation started.

    The devs haven’t said anything about planning to pair people with DR/Malak only against each other, so there is no evidence that is their intent, and even if they do that I can still express my opinion that their decision is a poor one.
  • Scuttlebutt
    1190 posts Member
    WEDWAY wrote: »
    Get ready for a wave of comments about how GA matchups are fair and nothing needs to change, get gud, you shouldn’t have wasted resources on fluff, and how this matchmaking is nothing new since TW using the same thing.

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Well, it happened. There are so many biased opinions that just want to prove why I am wrong. It is a waste to post problems on a site like this. Thank you to those who tried to support my post. I am not going to pull apart any responses to comment on every sentence. No matter what I write, these are the type of people who will only support their opinions and not try to understand a situation that someone else is experiencing. In some cases, I think people just don't understand the issue. I literally stated,"My son cannot play GA. The matches are way out of his league." Yet, someone responds, "Your son can play." Wow. I have learned my lesson. I was wrong to post on this site. Enjoy the game everyone.

    Lol yep. I’ve been arguing GA matchmaking for far too long. I’ve realized that it doesn’t matter what facts, statistics, or numbers you bring to the argument here. People will just find the one sentence that they can actually argue and hone in on that until you give up. Provide enough good facts and those people will just move to the next thread and start repeating the same thing they said here. Or they just blow your argument out of proportion to prove their own point.

    Bottom line is that it’s pointless arguing GA matchmaking on these forums. I’ve actually read some good discussions on reddit about matchmaking. And for the most part, there very little trolling despite both sides being involved in the discussion. You should try looking and commenting there.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
    EgoSlayer wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    EgoSlayer wrote: »
    There is a difference between not performing optimally, and being punished for spending resources. GA is the latter. Until the introduction of GA there is *no* game mode where expanding your roster and spending resources penalized you.

    Fluff could also give you a harder opponent in TW just like it does in GA. It's not a new thing. It's amazing how some players appear surprised by this effect.
    The developers intention is that players should *never* be penalized for spending resources to improve your characters.

    It seems like you misinterpreted the announcements regarding the paper zombie situation. That announcement said, that a character should always become stronger / more usefull, when you spend ressources on it. That's not the same thing as what you claim.
    Again - a fundamental difference between not performing optimally and an actual penalty for having GP. 10 8K GP characters does not in any way compete with a 5 character 80K team in GA - yet GA thinks they are the same.

    GA matches by GP. GA doesn't match players to create even matches/battles. GA doesn't 'think' it's the same.

    TW "Fluff" nets higher rewards and is distributed across 25-50 rosters and is a game mode where everyone on average only needs 8-10 teams total so the majority of every TW player's roster is "fluff" because it's never needed. GA players often need that many just for defense from a single roster, and then likewise matching number for attacking. It's not even remotely the same.

    Yet, fluff still has the same effect on match-making contrary to your claims. And once you cross the threshold for the highest rewards tier, there's no positive effect. If you fluffed up you roster to reach a higher reward tier, you always knew, that one day that fluff would loose its positive effect.
    But it sounds like they are finally changing it because GP is a poor measure for matchmaking. And they know it, so its getting addressed.

    The changes will be introduced along with the introduction of GA championshipswhich will also introduced tiered rewards. It's just the way it should be. If we would all still fight for the exact same rewards, those announced changes to match-making would be unfair. With rewards tiers I believe it's fair enough.
    They knew it in TW as well, because they added other criteria to the TW matchmaking that included some limited roster comparisons as part of the matching shortly after it's release that was using GP only.

    Previously there could be rather large differences in active GP in TW matches. They changed the match-making algorithm (last fall, IIRC) to create more even matches GP-wise.

  • Huatimus
    3669 posts Member
    Dk_rek wrote: »

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Sorry, But it took me 3 years of hard grinding to get to 4.3 million GP, taking my vitamins saying my prayers drinking my milk to follow the TB advice of devs (when released) to help my guild.

    You don't just lean that out in 2, 4, 6, 8, months... fluff guys can't compete and never will be able to compete..because the people destroying them now will graduate eventually out of your GP range and the NEWER players who never fluffed rosters to begin with will eventually begin to climb into your GP range with 0 fluff and make matters worse....

    In fact this is the best it's ever going to be for fluff guys (last place) lol. (can't get worse anyway)

    GA championships..... we will see what they roll out.... who knows maybe at the bottom ranks fluff guys can play fluff guys and have a chance to win one here and there.

    So basically you're saying that you're a Fluff-er who has fluffed a lot in the past?
    :o

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/****
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    WEDWAY wrote: »
    Get ready for a wave of comments about how GA matchups are fair and nothing needs to change, get gud, you shouldn’t have wasted resources on fluff, and how this matchmaking is nothing new since TW using the same thing.

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Well, it happened. There are so many biased opinions that just want to prove why I am wrong. It is a waste to post problems on a site like this. Thank you to those who tried to support my post. I am not going to pull apart any responses to comment on every sentence. No matter what I write, these are the type of people who will only support their opinions and not try to understand a situation that someone else is experiencing. In some cases, I think people just don't understand the issue. I literally stated,"My son cannot play GA. The matches are way out of his league." Yet, someone responds, "Your son can play." Wow. I have learned my lesson. I was wrong to post on this site. Enjoy the game everyone.

    Lol yep. I’ve been arguing GA matchmaking for far too long. I’ve realized that it doesn’t matter what facts, statistics, or numbers you bring to the argument here. People will just find the one sentence that they can actually argue and hone in on that until you give up. Provide enough good facts and those people will just move to the next thread and start repeating the same thing they said here. Or they just blow your argument out of proportion to prove their own point.

    Bottom line is that it’s pointless arguing GA matchmaking on these forums. I’ve actually read some good discussions on reddit about matchmaking. And for the most part, there very little trolling despite both sides being involved in the discussion. You should try looking and commenting there.

    I'm sorry, but you make it seem like you're the gold standard when it comes to online debating, providing facts, statistics etc etc haha
    You're trying to discredit anyone who has a different opinion even before they even said anything with your FIRST post in this thread.
    But you're right about it being pointless, it's just the same old biased arguments vs the same old biased arguments over and over again. I mean, the OP is clearly biased and doesn't want to hear the other side of the argument either, so your sympathy towards him is only comming from him sharing your opinion, not because he's above the forum in terms of being able to have a good discussion about this topic, neither are you for that matter.
    Have fun on reddit though, cya
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Scuttlebutt
    1190 posts Member
    leef wrote: »
    WEDWAY wrote: »
    Get ready for a wave of comments about how GA matchups are fair and nothing needs to change, get gud, you shouldn’t have wasted resources on fluff, and how this matchmaking is nothing new since TW using the same thing.

    But seriously, if you want to stop the bleeding, just don’t activate new characters or ships until absolutely needed. Don’t Star up toons or ships until needed. And remove mods from characters you don’t use in GA (assuming you don’t use them elsewhere too). Ships are a huge hit right now...just activating a 5* palpmobile was 40k power for me.

    Well, it happened. There are so many biased opinions that just want to prove why I am wrong. It is a waste to post problems on a site like this. Thank you to those who tried to support my post. I am not going to pull apart any responses to comment on every sentence. No matter what I write, these are the type of people who will only support their opinions and not try to understand a situation that someone else is experiencing. In some cases, I think people just don't understand the issue. I literally stated,"My son cannot play GA. The matches are way out of his league." Yet, someone responds, "Your son can play." Wow. I have learned my lesson. I was wrong to post on this site. Enjoy the game everyone.

    Lol yep. I’ve been arguing GA matchmaking for far too long. I’ve realized that it doesn’t matter what facts, statistics, or numbers you bring to the argument here. People will just find the one sentence that they can actually argue and hone in on that until you give up. Provide enough good facts and those people will just move to the next thread and start repeating the same thing they said here. Or they just blow your argument out of proportion to prove their own point.

    Bottom line is that it’s pointless arguing GA matchmaking on these forums. I’ve actually read some good discussions on reddit about matchmaking. And for the most part, there very little trolling despite both sides being involved in the discussion. You should try looking and commenting there.

    I'm sorry, but you make it seem like you're the gold standard when it comes to online debating, providing facts, statistics etc etc haha
    You're trying to discredit anyone who has a different opinion even before they even said anything with your FIRST post in this thread.
    But you're right about it being pointless, it's just the same old biased arguments vs the same old biased arguments over and over again. I mean, the OP is clearly biased and doesn't want to hear the other side of the argument either, so your sympathy towards him is only comming from him sharing your opinion, not because he's above the forum in terms of being able to have a good discussion about this topic, neither are you for that matter.
    Have fun on reddit though, cya

    I probably shouldn’t have made such a a sweeping statement. I have no problem with you and a few others that disagree with me. In fact, you and I came to an agreement about this topic on another thread.

    But I have been in the OP’s position, and I can tell you that it sucks to bring up a point (vague argument or factual based) and have it met with the same comment regardless of what’s said.

    And I’ve never claimed that I’m a gold standard for online debating.
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