Why GAC Matchmaking Doesn't Work

Replies

  • Gannon wrote: »
    biggles wrote: »
    It's not meant to be fair it's meant to give whales a sense of achievement for beating lower gp because they can't compete with other whales. Keeps the whales happy and continued spending

    This is actually true it's called engagement optimized matchmaking (EOMM) it's there to make spenders feel like their money was worth it and to pressure non spenders to pay money.

    The prob with that theory is that it's mostly whales or those who went full lean for previous GA matching that I've seen complaining. Everyone in between is pretty well off atm. Although I have noticed the difficulty gets harder each match for me, so maybe they actually are using a tournament style progression?

    Well I don't know about all that but in my final round of this GA out of the 4 of us that are 1-1, 2 have a few G13 including malak and the other two of us have no malak and only 1 G13. The two malak owners have very similar rosters yet they were split for the final round so each is facing a non malak inferior roster. Sure seems like its intended
  • CaptainRex wrote: »
    Top 80 GP? Identical
    Difference in G11/12 toons? 25
    Therein lies the rub. My opponent has 5 extra G11/12 teams they can mix and match on defense, or use on offense if they fail an attack. This is the major flaw in GAC matchmaking imo

    Absolutely!

    In most cases anything below g11 is epically useless in this game.
  • Gannon
    1626 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    biggles wrote: »
    It's not meant to be fair it's meant to give whales a sense of achievement for beating lower gp because they can't compete with other whales. Keeps the whales happy and continued spending

    This is actually true it's called engagement optimized matchmaking (EOMM) it's there to make spenders feel like their money was worth it and to pressure non spenders to pay money.

    The prob with that theory is that it's mostly whales or those who went full lean for previous GA matching that I've seen complaining. Everyone in between is pretty well off atm. Although I have noticed the difficulty gets harder each match for me, so maybe they actually are using a tournament style progression?

    Well I don't know about all that but in my final round of this GA out of the 4 of us that are 1-1, 2 have a few G13 including malak and the other two of us have no malak and only 1 G13. The two malak owners have very similar rosters yet they were split for the final round so each is facing a non malak inferior roster. Sure seems like its intended

    Well, yea. Who faces off in the end is solely due to who won the previous round, not who has what metas. So many apathetic defeatist ppl don't even bother attacking, so yea very understandable. Also, Malak has multiple counters, it's been well established by now. And g13 only matters on certain toons tbh. But honestly, counters work the same against g13 as g12 usually.
  • ridiculous matchmaking

    apir326rcsoe.jpeg
  • ucantsay wrote: »
    ridiculous matchmaking

    apir326rcsoe.jpeg

    Looks like whale on whale action w all the g13 toons.
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    ucantsay wrote: »
    ridiculous matchmaking

    apir326rcsoe.jpeg

    Your match demonstrates the exact blindspots of current MM, much more than what people post as unfair. G13 only making 200 GP difference, mods none and nothing beyond top 80 (where your fill exactly ends)
  • I have run into similar issues at the top end.... I have 4.5mil GP with, 1.6mil top 80 toon GP.

    In my current GA my first two opponents had 5mil+ GP.

    With 1.6mil top 80 Toon GP, those in my GAC all have every legendary character with zetas, and both Revan metas with zetas. Those with higher GP typically have more G12 chars, and some of those with higher GP also have more premium characters at G12 (newer Bounty Hunters, Separatists, Shak-it)

    IMO top 80 toon GP and total GP should be used for matchmaking. Use a formula like:

    Trunc(Top80/10000)*10000+trunc(totalGP/1000)


    So myself with 1 654 233 top 80 GP and 2 432 324 toon GP would have a number of 1 652 432. Matches could be made based on that number. So all players would have a similar top 80GP and total GP.
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    edited July 2019
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Keydash1 wrote: »
    biggles wrote: »
    It's not meant to be fair it's meant to give whales a sense of achievement for beating lower gp because they can't compete with other whales. Keeps the whales happy and continued spending
    I'd say whales are at a disadvantage in the new algorithm. They've cranked up their GP faster, meaning they are usually behind on zetas (and often behind on mods). Check out Endall Beall's videos for an example - the whales in the bracket are the ones who get crushed.

    Having extra teams for backup and flexibility is useful, but there are still only so many viable teams. Having garbage toons at G12+ is no help at all.

    Unless they have a Malak and 5-6 more g13 toons that the opponent does not have. In almost every case that's enough to block half the board.

    If you don’t have a counter to malak yet, you’re not going to win GAC. There are several counters, and he’s by no means a new problem. If you’re properly prepared (have all legendary/journey toons by their second pass, totally doable FTP) there shouldn’t be any team capable of blocking half the board. If you’re struggling against Malak, I’d recommend practicing against him in the arena. There should be plenty of teams available there for you to work on your technique.

    A couple of points - first, I do have a Malak counter....which I run every day in arena. I have a fully zeta'd Padme/GR team. Against full g13 Malak teams, they are 50-60% at best depending on RNG. You also completely ignored the second half of the sentence- which had to do with matchups where opponents not only have full Malak teams against those who don't, but entire team's worth of g13 toons in addition.

    A major reason why this is an issue, is that the MM algorithm does three things that create large inequities in terms of actual performance:

    1) G13, despite proving a significant boost in stats (not just the stats from the finisher, but the mod % boost for the entire gear level 12) - adds an insignificant amount to GP (just over 200).

    2) Any system based on GP is inherently flawed - because a zzMalak at g13, is basically the same GP as zzKRU at g12 and zzTarkin at g12. If someone has a maxed GG/Sep droid squad, that zB1 at g12 is the same GP as zJyn at g12. Toons that players geared and leveld for pilots or to help out their guild in Hoth (LS or DS) now count strongly against them for GAC MM purposes.

    3) With the shift as of late to prescribed play with JKR, DR and Malak (and now extending to GG/Sep and Brood Alpha geos), many of those teams require a very specific counter. Many of those counters are either the same team exactly (GR is often listed in apps/data bases as the counter for DR/Malak and GG/Sep), or use a character that is needed to counter others on the list (Thrawn and C3P0 are listed in multiple counter teams to the above). This issue is only made worse by the fact that such characters, if removed from their more "traditional" teams only weaken those offensive or defensive teams needed elsewhere.

    A perfect example in my most recent GAC match. My opponent has 6 g13 toons (I have 1). He also has Malak (I don't) - that, however is not where the problem actually lies. He also has an entire 7* GG/Sep droid team (complete with 7* Droideka and 7* B1) - neither of which I have. And a full g12 Geo team with a zBrood Alpha (I have no g12 Geos and no zeta on Brood Alpha). So using my GR team against the 4 g13 Malak team and defeating everyone except Malak wasn't the issue. It was having to send in a second team to clean up Malak and still have enough teams to deal with the 2 fully maxed teams he had available that I didn't. He could basically "mirror match" parts of my defense (which included Triumverate and JKR), while I had no such luxury, as he had 3 meta teams on defense I don't even own - two of whom share the same counter. Actually, I have beaten maxed Geos with GR, so all 3 share that counter.

    TL;DR - when one player has 2-3 maxed meta teams more than another, "working on technique" doesn't matter. As long as the system counts g13 Malak the same as it does zzKRU or zzTarkin (pilot), these weaknesses will remain.

    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • I've gone from a 66% winning percentage to a 33% since they changed matchmaking. Winning is much more of a function of who you happen match up with and not your roster. I don't believe it should be this way. There are so many metrics that could be used for matching, but it doesn't look like they use any of them.
  • KyoO1234
    270 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Keydash1 wrote: »
    biggles wrote: »
    It's not meant to be fair it's meant to give whales a sense of achievement for beating lower gp because they can't compete with other whales. Keeps the whales happy and continued spending
    I'd say whales are at a disadvantage in the new algorithm. They've cranked up their GP faster, meaning they are usually behind on zetas (and often behind on mods). Check out Endall Beall's videos for an example - the whales in the bracket are the ones who get crushed.

    Having extra teams for backup and flexibility is useful, but there are still only so many viable teams. Having garbage toons at G12+ is no help at all.

    Unless they have a Malak and 5-6 more g13 toons that the opponent does not have. In almost every case that's enough to block half the board.

    If you don’t have a counter to malak yet, you’re not going to win GAC. There are several counters, and he’s by no means a new problem. If you’re properly prepared (have all legendary/journey toons by their second pass, totally doable FTP) there shouldn’t be any team capable of blocking half the board. If you’re struggling against Malak, I’d recommend practicing against him in the arena. There should be plenty of teams available there for you to work on your technique.

    A couple of points - first, I do have a Malak counter....which I run every day in arena. I have a fully zeta'd Padme/GR team. Against full g13 Malak teams, they are 50-60% at best depending on RNG. You also completely ignored the second half of the sentence- which had to do with matchups where opponents not only have full Malak teams against those who don't, but entire team's worth of g13 toons in addition.

    A major reason why this is an issue, is that the MM algorithm does three things that create large inequities in terms of actual performance:

    1) G13, despite proving a significant boost in stats (not just the stats from the finisher, but the mod % boost for the entire gear level 12) - adds an insignificant amount to GP (just over 200).

    2) Any system based on GP is inherently flawed - because a zzMalak at g13, is basically the same GP as zzKRU at g12 and zzTarkin at g12. If someone has a maxed GG/Sep droid squad, that zB1 at g12 is the same GP as zJyn at g12. Toons that players geared and leveld for pilots or to help out their guild in Hoth (LS or DS) now count strongly against them for GAC MM purposes.

    3) With the shift as of late to prescribed play with JKR, DR and Malak (and now extending to GG/Sep and Brood Alpha geos), many of those teams require a very specific counter. Many of those counters are either the same team exactly (GR is often listed in apps/data bases as the counter for DR/Malak and GG/Sep), or use a character that is needed to counter others on the list (Thrawn and C3P0 are listed in multiple counter teams to the above). This issue is only made worse by the fact that such characters, if removed from their more "traditional" teams only weaken those offensive or defensive teams needed elsewhere.

    A perfect example in my most recent GAC match. My opponent has 6 g13 toons (I have 1). He also has Malak (I don't) - that, however is not where the problem actually lies. He also has an entire 7* GG/Sep droid team (complete with 7* Droideka and 7* B1) - neither of which I have. And a full g12 Geo team with a zBrood Alpha (I have no g12 Geos and no zeta on Brood Alpha). So using my GR team against the 4 g13 Malak team and defeating everyone except Malak wasn't the issue. It was having to send in a second team to clean up Malak and still have enough teams to deal with the 2 fully maxed teams he had available that I didn't. He could basically "mirror match" parts of my defense (which included Triumverate and JKR), while I had no such luxury, as he had 3 meta teams on defense I don't even own - two of whom share the same counter. Actually, I have beaten maxed Geos with GR, so all 3 share that counter.

    TL;DR - when one player has 2-3 maxed meta teams more than another, "working on technique" doesn't matter. As long as the system counts g13 Malak the same as it does zzKRU or zzTarkin (pilot), these weaknesses will remain.

    This pretty much sums it up. Thank you.
  • So... surprisingly I came in last place in this GAC.

    I’m sure it’s my lack of knowledge, skill, determination and willingness to farm the right toons.

    Because it cannot be the flawless matchmaking that put me in a group where 7 of 8 have multiple meta characters at G13 (unlike me) and where 7 of 8 have DR, Malak, Traya, and C3P0 (unlike me).

    Probably I just didn’t use the right counters. Silly me.

    If that’s how GAC matchmaking works next time around I’ll not waste anymore time with this game mode.
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    So... surprisingly I came in last place in this GAC.

    I’m sure it’s my lack of knowledge, skill, determination and willingness to farm the right toons.

    Because it cannot be the flawless matchmaking that put me in a group where 7 of 8 have multiple meta characters at G13 (unlike me) and where 7 of 8 have DR, Malak, Traya, and C3P0 (unlike me).

    Probably I just didn’t use the right counters. Silly me.

    If that’s how GAC matchmaking works next time around I’ll not waste anymore time with this game mode.

    Which is sad because GA used to be my favorite game mode. Best thing added to the game. I was so excited every time it ran. Now I'm meh to it, like so many other game modes :cry:
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • KyoO1234
    270 posts Member
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    Then you are just ignorant (sorry to tell you that bluntly).

    Many forum posts already explained in detail
    a) how outrageously mismatched they were in GAC, and
    b) what the issue with the current matchmaking is (using only GP as criteria)

    On the contrary: the only arguments in favor of the current matchmaking i read came from players who obviously enjoy getting their ego stroked by winning against significantly weaker opponents. And that’s just sad...
  • Nikoms565
    14242 posts Member
    edited July 2019
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    To be fair, the people who win easily are not going to complain, so your second point is fairly irrelevant.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • I've been just treating ga like a sandbox mode lately as I've been matched against players who are way more powerful and they can just throw endless amounts at my defense. Whereas I am more limited in the amount of squads I can use. I used to win most of my matchups but since the new matchmaking I'm at about at best 1 out of every 3 matchups.
  • Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    To be fair, the people who win easily are not going to complain, so your second point is fairly irrelevant.

    To be fair, the people who lose by a wide margin are going to complain, so the whole point is fairly irrelevant. More people may voice that they hate the matchmaking than the people who don't hate the matchmaking, but that doesn't mean more people have unfavorable matches. We have no idea how unfair the system really is (if at all), just anecdotal evidence of bad matchups.
  • KyoO1234
    270 posts Member
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    To be fair, the people who win easily are not going to complain, so your second point is fairly irrelevant.

    To be fair, the people who lose by a wide margin are going to complain, so the whole point is fairly irrelevant. More people may voice that they hate the matchmaking than the people who don't hate the matchmaking, but that doesn't mean more people have unfavorable matches. We have no idea how unfair the system really is (if at all), just anecdotal evidence of bad matchups.

    That is not correct. It’s two sides of the same issue and just confirms the flawed matchmaking. I have yet to hear a number of players saying: “I had 5-6 really balanced matches in GAC.”
    It’s either
    “Help, I am getting completely crushed by more powerful players!” or
    “I don’t know what your problem is? I am winning all my matches with ease!”
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    KyoO1234 wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    To be fair, the people who win easily are not going to complain, so your second point is fairly irrelevant.

    To be fair, the people who lose by a wide margin are going to complain, so the whole point is fairly irrelevant. More people may voice that they hate the matchmaking than the people who don't hate the matchmaking, but that doesn't mean more people have unfavorable matches. We have no idea how unfair the system really is (if at all), just anecdotal evidence of bad matchups.

    That is not correct. It’s two sides of the same issue and just confirms the flawed matchmaking. I have yet to hear a number of players saying: “I had 5-6 really balanced matches in GAC.”
    It’s either
    “Help, I am getting completely crushed by more powerful players!” or
    “I don’t know what your problem is? I am winning all my matches with ease!”

    Week 2-3 I had amazingly balanced leagues, miniscule differences. If you want to question if it benefits me, I only won 1 match 2nd week, and won this 1st match this week. Of course when I go through the remaining 7 profiles, I am aware which of these peeps are favorites to be the winner. I just mean the horror scenarios people love to see are nowhere to be seen in my gac.
  • I love this new matchmaking, I've won one round since it started.
  • Gannon
    1626 posts Member
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    This. I haven't seen any reasonable argument that actually considers the full matching system.
    And, sure they should expand the number counted, but atm most matches at higher levels are determined by just one failed attack. Counting more than is needed won't change it very much, except for those that built super lean rosters where after top 60 is a huge drop off..
  • Ultra
    11491 posts Moderator
    ucantsay wrote: »
    ridiculous matchmaking

    apir326rcsoe.jpeg
    His GA stats are the most interesting part for me

    I wonder if he is super casual and doesn't always play the game
  • vincentlondon
    4527 posts Member
    edited July 2019
    They should do matchmaking based on number of victories in GA.
    All the best will fight together
    All the weak will fight together
    And that s as simple as that.

    At the beginning of course it would be quite random. But the more GA rounds the more accurate the matchmaking will become
  • Gannon
    1626 posts Member
    They should do matchmaking based on number of victories in GA.
    All the best will fight together
    All the weak will fight together
    And that s as simple as that.

    At the beginning of course it would be quite random. But the more GA rounds the more accurate the matchmaking will become

    Wouldn't it take months or more to ever see a balanced match tho? 😆 I agree it could be added as a factor, or go off of gp plus lifetime score, but that seems way too random if that's all it matched
  • CaptainRex
    2840 posts Member
    Gannon wrote: »
    Vicarious wrote: »
    Forums are full of players who aren’t happy with the matchmaking.....

    GAC matchmaking is terrible!!

    I haven't read a good argument against it yet, only arguments from people who lost.

    This. I haven't seen any reasonable argument that actually considers the full matching system.
    And, sure they should expand the number counted, but atm most matches at higher levels are determined by just one failed attack. Counting more than is needed won't change it very much, except for those that built super lean rosters where after top 60 is a huge drop off..

    You just listed mine :smile:
    they should expand the number counted

    Also, I have a super lean roster...
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • CaptainRex
    2840 posts Member
    Final (maybe lol) Thoughts
    I currently run 2 accounts
    Main: 4.5M GP, no Padme GR, but every other "meta" team G12/13, with weeks worth of modding poured into them. All other toons unmodded, with the vast majority at G1-5.
    Alt (playing for a friend on break): 4.8, fluffy, most everyone G11/12, no Malak, no G13, mods on everyone.

    My main has yet to reach a championship round so far in GAC. Previously, I had made it to the championship round in all GA formats, winning most of them.
    My alt has cruised through this current GAC round, winning the championship easy. Previously, I had won a single GA, and only reached the championship twice.

    Herein lies my frustration. GA results should translate to GAC. My alt should be struggling, and my main should either be winning, or losing closely contested matches.
    The only variable that has changed between GA and GAC is the matchmaking, and it hurts, because GA gave me a sense of accomplishment, that for the very first time, the years I've spent not spending resources on "pointless" toons and staying patient and focused (which took a lot of self control) was finally worth it. Now it's all been taken away.
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
  • Where are you getting these matchup comparison images? 🤔
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    Where are you getting these matchup comparison images? 🤔

    It's DSR bot, it's on most servers. There are other bots similar. Using these bots are bread&butter for anyone serious at GAC at this point.
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