I don't know if the following is true. I certainly can't prove it and have little more than anecdotal evidence for it. But it is a conclusion I have reached based on personal observation ...
Simply put, the people most upset over the portrayal of Luke in TLJ are those who read the Expanded Universe novels starting with Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy and culminating in a new Jedi order lead by Luke. That was the Luke that they wanted to see onscreen and got it into their heads that that was the "real Luke", the "true Like". So when TLJ came out and had a completely different take on Luke post-ROTJ, they couldn't accept it. It wasn't the Perfect Hero of the novels. It wasn't what they wanted Luke to be.
But for those who never read the novels, or those like me who gave up on them after a while because they didn't like them, it's much easier to see TLJ Luke as being Luke because it does fit in with all his on-screen representations in the past.
It just doesn't fit with his in-print portrayals.
You never answered my question. Can you see how a Luke that ignores his friends and family for a great while may upset fans both casual and very invested?
I did answer your question. I said it depends how you look at it. Scroll up
No, you gave another point of view and then decided that your point of view was correct.
Would you not agree that "my point of view" is that shared by the film makers? Otherwise they wouldn't have made the film in the way they did. They did what they thought was correct and I agree with them.
That might have been the view of the film makers. It makes sense. But that’s not what the majority of the audience sees. Remember, the film makers also decided that Jar Jar was good for comic relief. A misinterpretation of how your audience may take a new direction can ruin a franchise. And I’m still confused on why Luke totally ignores his family. You said hearing if his family in peril drove him to gain control and protect them. So why did he ignore Leia for so long?
Actually ... I believe it is what the majority of the audience sees. As I said above, in my experience the only people who have a problem with it are those who read the Expanded Universe novels and had a rigid view of Luke as a result. Nobody else I know has a problem with it.
He ignores Leia for so long because he has come to believe that he has made things worse and that staying will continue to make it even more so. He tried to talk to Kylo and failed and now knows that as a result he lost his one chance to talk to him and that Kylo will try to kill him immediately should he ever see him again; which is exactly what happens when Luke appears in front of the FO Army.
Luke can't help Kylo anymore. He believes that staying will only makes things worse. So he leaves.
A character does x, therefore another character should do it too.
Brilliant argument.
A character has TWO masters who BOTH do X. Therefore the character learns the lesson to do X.
You really think that doesn't work??
A character has a core identity of loyalty to family, but because two other did something under different circumstances... he should abandon everything he stands for and do the same.
A character does x, therefore another character should do it too.
Brilliant argument.
A character has TWO masters who BOTH do X. Therefore the character learns the lesson to do X.
You really think that doesn't work??
A character has a core identity of loyalty to family, but because two other did something under different circumstances... he should abandon everything he stands for and do the same.
Yeah, it’s a poor argument.
He doesn't abandon everything he stands for. I've already illustrated why. He is trying to be a pacifist and I have listed extensive evidence to that fact but you keep ignoring it.
A character does x, therefore another character should do it too.
Brilliant argument.
A character has TWO masters who BOTH do X. Therefore the character learns the lesson to do X.
You really think that doesn't work??
A character has a core identity of loyalty to family, but because two other did something under different circumstances... he should abandon everything he stands for and do the same.
Yeah, it’s a poor argument.
He doesn't abandon everything he stands for. I've already illustrated why. He is trying to be a pacifist and I have listed extensive evidence to that fact but you keep ignoring it.
Pacifist eh? Must be why he had all those lightsaber fights, oh and blew up a space station killing loads of people.
I don't know if the following is true. I certainly can't prove it and have little more than anecdotal evidence for it. But it is a conclusion I have reached based on personal observation ...
Simply put, the people most upset over the portrayal of Luke in TLJ are those who read the Expanded Universe novels starting with Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy and culminating in a new Jedi order lead by Luke. That was the Luke that they wanted to see onscreen and got it into their heads that that was the "real Luke", the "true Like". So when TLJ came out and had a completely different take on Luke post-ROTJ, they couldn't accept it. It wasn't the Perfect Hero of the novels. It wasn't what they wanted Luke to be.
But for those who never read the novels, or those like me who gave up on them after a while because they didn't like them, it's much easier to see TLJ Luke as being Luke because it does fit in with all his on-screen representations in the past.
It just doesn't fit with his in-print portrayals.
You never answered my question. Can you see how a Luke that ignores his friends and family for a great while may upset fans both casual and very invested?
I did answer your question. I said it depends how you look at it. Scroll up
No, you gave another point of view and then decided that your point of view was correct.
Would you not agree that "my point of view" is that shared by the film makers? Otherwise they wouldn't have made the film in the way they did. They did what they thought was correct and I agree with them.
That might have been the view of the film makers. It makes sense. But that’s not what the majority of the audience sees. Remember, the film makers also decided that Jar Jar was good for comic relief. A misinterpretation of how your audience may take a new direction can ruin a franchise. And I’m still confused on why Luke totally ignores his family. You said hearing if his family in peril drove him to gain control and protect them. So why did he ignore Leia for so long?
Actually ... I believe it is what the majority of the audience sees. As I said above, in my experience the only people who have a problem with it are those who read the Expanded Universe novels and had a rigid view of Luke as a result. Nobody else I know has a problem with it.
He ignores Leia for so long because he has come to believe that he has made things worse and that staying will continue to make it even more so. He tried to talk to Kylo and failed and now knows that as a result he lost his one chance to talk to him and that Kylo will try to kill him immediately should he ever see him again; which is exactly what happens when Luke appears in front of the FO Army.
Luke can't help Kylo anymore. He believes that staying will only makes things worse. So he leaves.
Then where did the backlash come from? Luke is a Jedi. His duty is to keep the peace. By doing nothing, he has failed. The Luke from TLJ does not deserve to be a Jedi. The one from ROTJ strolled right up to Vader to face his problems knowing full well that it was his fault that he led his friends into a trap. That’s the Luke I know.
A character does x, therefore another character should do it too.
Brilliant argument.
A character has TWO masters who BOTH do X. Therefore the character learns the lesson to do X.
You really think that doesn't work??
A character has a core identity of loyalty to family, but because two other did something under different circumstances... he should abandon everything he stands for and do the same.
Yeah, it’s a poor argument.
He doesn't abandon everything he stands for. I've already illustrated why. He is trying to be a pacifist and I have listed extensive evidence to that fact but you keep ignoring it.
Pacifist eh? Must be why he had all those lightsaber fights, oh and blew up a space station killing loads of people.
He develops as a character and becomes a pacifist by the beginning of ROTJ. I have extensively listed his repeated attempts to avoid fighting throughout ROTJ. Before that film, not so much but he has changed and grown as a character. He starts ANH as wanting adventure and excitement but Yoda teaches him that a Jedi seeks not these things and Luke wants to be a Jedi more than anything else so grows out of wanting them and tries to follow the path of peace.
Then where did the backlash come from? Luke is a Jedi. His duty is to keep the peace. By doing nothing, he has failed. The Luke from TLJ does not deserve to be a Jedi. The one from ROTJ strolled right up to Vader to face his problems knowing full well that it was his fault that he led his friends into a trap. That’s the Luke I know.
The Luke in TLJ doesn't want to be a Jedi any longer. He has changed in the intervening years. Character growth, again. He has come to believe that it is time for the Jedi Order ... to end.
And he didn't stroll up to Vader to face his problems; he strolled up to Vader to try and save Vader. Just like he strolled up to Ben to try and save Ben; only it didn't work that time.
Then where did the backlash come from? Luke is a Jedi. His duty is to keep the peace. By doing nothing, he has failed. The Luke from TLJ does not deserve to be a Jedi. The one from ROTJ strolled right up to Vader to face his problems knowing full well that it was his fault that he led his friends into a trap. That’s the Luke I know.
The Luke in TLJ doesn't want to be a Jedi any longer. He has changed in the intervening years. Character growth, again. He has come to believe that it is time for the Jedi Order ... to end.
And he didn't stroll up to Vader to face his problems; he strolled up to Vader to try and save Vader. Just like he strolled up to Ben to try and save Ben; only it didn't work that time.
Not to save Vader. He knew he had to save Vader so that he could defeat the dark side, but his goal was to defeat evil and save his friends and ultimately, protect the galaxy. That is the duty of a Jedi, and that’s what he’s missing in TLJ. He thinks that the Jedi should end because of... what exactly? HIS mistake? The Luke that we’ve been shown before has conquered his fear, and should be able to face his mistakes. Yes, even our greatest hero’s make mistakes. They are our hero’s because they face their mistakes. The only development between failing with Kylo and TLJ is becoming a terrified mess. That’s not the Luke from the OT.
Another issue is Rey. She is shown to be much better than Luke in TLJ. She is supposed to “grow beyond” Luke according to Yoda. But she doesn’t grow. She’s always been perfect, and hasn’t had to face any real internal struggle. She wants to know who she is; which never actually harms her, like Luke’s desire to help his friends. She’s just too perfect, and that belittles Luke, which is honestly pretty insulting to anyone who believed in Luke.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
I’m sure there are. None of them detract from a franchise I love however.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
I’m sure there are. None of them detract from a franchise I love however.
Watch POTC 4. Also Jurassic Park 3. If you haven’t seen the movies before those, watch them first, and then experience the facepalm on another level.
To be truthful, I’ve never let one movie detract from the rest of a franchise. TLJ isn’t my favorite, but it’s the way it is. In the words of Steve Rodgers until he becomes a hypocrite two minutes later: You gotta move on.
Then where did the backlash come from? Luke is a Jedi. His duty is to keep the peace. By doing nothing, he has failed. The Luke from TLJ does not deserve to be a Jedi. The one from ROTJ strolled right up to Vader to face his problems knowing full well that it was his fault that he led his friends into a trap. That’s the Luke I know.
The Luke in TLJ doesn't want to be a Jedi any longer. He has changed in the intervening years. Character growth, again. He has come to believe that it is time for the Jedi Order ... to end.
And he didn't stroll up to Vader to face his problems; he strolled up to Vader to try and save Vader. Just like he strolled up to Ben to try and save Ben; only it didn't work that time.
Not to save Vader. He knew he had to save Vader so that he could defeat the dark side, but his goal was to defeat evil and save his friends and ultimately, protect the galaxy. That is the duty of a Jedi, and that’s what he’s missing in TLJ. He thinks that the Jedi should end because of... what exactly? HIS mistake? The Luke that we’ve been shown before has conquered his fear, and should be able to face his mistakes. Yes, even our greatest hero’s make mistakes. They are our hero’s because they face their mistakes. The only development between failing with Kylo and TLJ is becoming a terrified mess. That’s not the Luke from the OT.
Another issue is Rey. She is shown to be much better than Luke in TLJ. She is supposed to “grow beyond” Luke according to Yoda. But she doesn’t grow. She’s always been perfect, and hasn’t had to face any real internal struggle. She wants to know who she is; which never actually harms her, like Luke’s desire to help his friends. She’s just too perfect, and that belittles Luke, which is honestly pretty insulting to anyone who believed in Luke.
1. The Luke you knew found out about the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order, which in turn created Vader. Finding out he created Kylo Ren, under years of his own aegis, can shatter a guy's expectation of one's own "legacy". Because he just had to be "Luke Skywalker: Jedi Master" (TM).
2. Because of the hypocrisy that the Jedi represent true balance. They failed due to their own hubris. Luke tried to succeed over that, only to fall for the same trap. What Disneyfilm wants to impart to you is that Kylo (and Rey) is an even stronger presence in the Force than Anakin (which I'll never agree to, but okay Mouse House). From then on, nothing Luke could do in his "power" that he already attempted in all the time he trained Kylo. To do-or-do-not the same thing over and over again is the definition of insanity, so Luke did the only sane thing he could: cut himself off from the Force, realizing that he'd only use it to do-or-do-not the same thing over again, and end up pulling a Finn. In doing so, he didn't realize anything about the First Order.
I'm EXTREMELY sure I've gone to even greater length on this in the Last Jedi thread.
3. She's never been perfect. She grew as the story went along. Y'see, when you speak of "power", you only focus on her abilities in the Force, in videogame fashion, as if no one has ever gained those powers by simply honing them (not Anakin as a Podracer, not Luke Skywalker: Skyhoping Murderhobo of Womprats (TM), not Leia as a telepath on Bespin... nah, they don't count), when real power is what you do with your abilities. She was still stuck in "muh legacy" mode, realizing that she is her own person, as Stenun suggested. Here's a list of her failures and inner struggles...
-Waiting for people who don't matter in her life to define her life
-"Oh no. Wrong fuses."
-Being scared of and not wanting any part of her future
-Her first fight with Kylo
-Saving Han
-Also thinking that the Force is just some trivial power... "Lifting rocks..."
-Tempting the Dark Side just to find answers of her past
-Trying to repeat a legendary past by trying to convert Kylo to the Light
Those sound far more interesting for a character than going "over 9000!!!"
YODA: Luke... we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.
The Jedi are what Rey has grown beyond. And that's the beauty of the movie's end: it can go anywhere. Sadly now, that path may lead to Abrams's coveted galaxy of Mystery Boxes, which a conclusion can go without.
PS: The best thing about Rey is that Last Jedi haters don't even realize how much they are just like her. All they have to do is grow beyond their expectations.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
Catwoman
Basic Instinct 2
This Island Earth
Garbage Pail Kids: The Movie
Mac & Me
Uwe Boll movies
The Matrix trilogy (but that's just me)
The First Wives Club
The Sweetest Thing
The Doom Generation
.... I can go on and on.
In my opinion TLJ is worse. I just absolutely hated it from start to finish. The others might be bad films, none of them ruined Luke Skywalker.
Luke walking off and abandoning his family will never wash with me. It’s like the final season of game of thrones 😂.
Luke's a pacifist ... So I had to look up the definition. Pacifist: one who volunteers for a military infiltration mission to destroy a shield generating facility, allowing an allied strike force an unimpeded attack vector to a planet-disintegrating superweapon for the purpose of blowing said superweapon to smithereens and killing tens of thousands of imperial personnel in the process.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
Luke's a pacifist ... So I had to look up the definition. Pacifist: one who volunteers for a military infiltration mission to destroy a shield generating facility, allowing an allied strike force an unimpeded attack vector to a planet-disintegrating superweapon for the purpose of blowing said superweapon to smithereens and killing tens of thousands of imperial personnel in the process.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
After this whopping at the end of ESB, Luke does everything he can to avoid violence and only uses it as a last resort. I have outlined many, many examples of this.
If "pacifist" is not the word to use for someone like that, what word would you prefer?
Luke's a pacifist ... So I had to look up the definition. Pacifist: one who volunteers for a military infiltration mission to destroy a shield generating facility, allowing an allied strike force an unimpeded attack vector to a planet-disintegrating superweapon for the purpose of blowing said superweapon to smithereens and killing tens of thousands of imperial personnel in the process.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
After this whopping at the end of ESB, Luke does everything he can to avoid violence and only uses it as a last resort. I have outlined many, many examples of this.
If "pacifist" is not the word to use for someone like that, what word would you prefer?
It's not a last resort if you actively plan for violence. If Luke were a pacifist, he would have planned an alternate strategy for eliminating DS2, like, oh I don't know, infiltrating the station itself and irreparably sabotaging it somehow while allowing all the station personnel adequate time to evacuate. But that wasn't the plan, the plan was a full frontal assault that would undoubtedly result in thousands of deaths, ally and enemy both.
I suppose Grand Moff Tarkin was a pacifist too. I mean, he tried to use politics to stop the Alderaanian royalty from supporting the rebellion (see the novel Leia for this story), but when that didn't work he pacified the whole durn planet with the Death Star.
Sorry, but I reject your explanation of Luke's character arc. Just doesn't fit.
I guess all that makes sense. Maybe I should let go of my expectations.
It just felt really wrong when I first saw it. I was so excited, and I really wanted it to be good. But I guess I was expecting too much of the past. And Kylo be like let the past die. I should have listened to him.
Maybe it’s a good thing that Abrams is back. Maybe he’ll give us what we want: big shock reveals and a resolution for our favorite heroes. Or maybe what we want will actually kill the past instead of letting go of it. I don’t know. I guess we will see.
If Luke were a pacifist, he would have planned an alternate strategy for eliminating DS2, like, oh I don't know, infiltrating the station itself and irreparably sabotaging it somehow while allowing all the station personnel adequate time to evacuate. But that wasn't the plan, the plan was a full frontal assault that would undoubtedly result in thousands of deaths, ally and enemy both.
It wasn't his plan. If you recall, he wasn't even in the room when the plan was outlined.
Hmeh.How you view Luke really just depends on how you view Luke's character development in rotj.
The problem as I see it is that in rotj, Luke finally learns that he must keep control in that last moment when he cuts vader's hand off and realizes what he'll become if he continues to let his emotions control him.
Tlj takes his character development a step backwards and undoes what he learned in rotj in the flashback. They do the same with han solo in tfa. Thoughout the original trilogy, we see three movies of him growing from caring only about himself to caring about his friends and starting a family. Then suddenly he's abandoning his family and going back to his smuggling ways with no explanation.
The same applies to Luke. The point of Rotj, was that he learned to control his emotions and not give into anger. Tge tlj undoes that by having him once again give into anger (though only temporarily) in the flashback scene.
I can even see him giving up and going into hiding to await another to train to defeat snoke (that's what yoda did after being defeated by ep). You could even say that he matured enough to realize that he coukd do no more and that the will of the force demanded patience. Once again look at yoda and obiwan. They went into exile but had a plan. Luke just gave up. It may seem like a minor difference to some but it really is a huge difference.
And in ep 7 it looked like that was the case, Luke had gone off to hide and eventually train Rey. I'm guessing that was at one point part of the plan. But in the last jedi they just decided that rey needed no training and made luke just give up instead.
They could have even done a version of luke giving up at first and still eventually training Rey had they not arbitrarily put a 19hr space chase in the movie ensuring that everything had to happen within a day after the force awakens.
It's just poor execution that no one asked why doesn't Rey need any training to become a jedi? Everyone else did. Anakin had years of training. Luke had at least days/weeks/or months of training depending on how long you think the chase from hoth to bespin took and how long they were on bespin before he left. Not to mention a two or three year time skip where I would assume he practiced wjat old ben had taught him. But Rey doesn't know what the force is and two days later, she is doing feats it took Luke years to learn.
You can say she's gifted, but that's just lazy writing. She can lift the rocks at the end because the plot needs it.
Luke's a pacifist ... So I had to look up the definition. Pacifist: one who volunteers for a military infiltration mission to destroy a shield generating facility, allowing an allied strike force an unimpeded attack vector to a planet-disintegrating superweapon for the purpose of blowing said superweapon to smithereens and killing tens of thousands of imperial personnel in the process.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
After this whopping at the end of ESB, Luke does everything he can to avoid violence and only uses it as a last resort. I have outlined many, many examples of this.
If "pacifist" is not the word to use for someone like that, what word would you prefer?
Luke's a pacifist ... So I had to look up the definition. Pacifist: one who volunteers for a military infiltration mission to destroy a shield generating facility, allowing an allied strike force an unimpeded attack vector to a planet-disintegrating superweapon for the purpose of blowing said superweapon to smithereens and killing tens of thousands of imperial personnel in the process.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
After this whopping at the end of ESB, Luke does everything he can to avoid violence and only uses it as a last resort. I have outlined many, many examples of this.
If "pacifist" is not the word to use for someone like that, what word would you prefer?
He chops off Vader’s hand at the end of Jedi.
Luke is not a pacifist. Never has been.
Yes. And that's the moment he regains control.
Luke is not a perfect pacifist. He is TRYING to be a pacifist but can be provoked into violence when he loses his control. I have gone into this extensively previously in the thread.
He loses control then regains control several times.
His initial plan to rescue Han from Jabba is to sneak in, get him and sneak out. Peacefully. It fails.
He then lets Han try to bribe Jabba. Peacefully. It fails.
He then threatens Jabba. Not entirely peaceful but it's still not actual violence. It fails.
As a fourth option, as the very last resort as he's being thrown into the Sarlacc Pit, he commits violence.
And a direct copy and paste from earlier in this thread:
"On Endor, Luke surrendered to Vader peacefully. He adopted the path of peace.
He was taken to the Throne Room where he refused to fight. He adopted the path of peace.
Eventually, the Emperor provoked Luke enough that Luke lost control for a brief moment and ended up in a fight with Vader. But then he regains control. When we return to the Throne Room a little later, Luke has stopped fighting. He is hiding in the shadows. He adopted the path of peace.
Finally, after repeatedly trying to goad him, Vader provoked Luke enough that Luke lost control for a brief moment and ended up in a fight with Vader. But then he regains control. He throws his weapon down and refuses to fight. He adopted the path of peace.
Vader is the one who throws the Emperor down the shaft of Death Star II. Vader is the who who destroys the Dark Side. Not Luke. Luke tried every step of the way to follow the path of peace. He just kept failing.
Skip to the events of The Last Jedi ...
Luke knows Ben is falling to evil. So instead of responding violently, Luke goes to Ben to try and talk to him about it. He adopted the path of peace.
But he has a vision of Ben's future and lost control for a brief moment. But unlike the previous instances, he regains control very quickly and doesn't attack. He adopted the path of peace.
But this time, it's too late ... Ben is awake.
Luke, ashamed that once again he had failed to stay on the path of peace and knowing that this time it will have disastrous consequences, leaves rather than risk another momentary loss of control making it worse yet again. He adopted the path of peace.
Finally, Rey and Yoda convince him that you don't have to run from your mistakes.
So he returns. And he adopts the path of peace and rescues the survivors. He finally clings to the path of peace throughout and saves the day.
And then he dies. Peacefully."
If Luke were a pacifist, he would have planned an alternate strategy for eliminating DS2, like, oh I don't know, infiltrating the station itself and irreparably sabotaging it somehow while allowing all the station personnel adequate time to evacuate. But that wasn't the plan, the plan was a full frontal assault that would undoubtedly result in thousands of deaths, ally and enemy both.
It wasn't his plan. If you recall, he wasn't even in the room when the plan was outlined.
lol he knew the plan, come on man. If he wanted, he could have talked the big heads into a different strategy. But nah, killing thousands of nameless faceless Imperials is lots more fun. After all, it is Star Wars and there isn't much room for pacifism.
If Luke were a pacifist, he would have planned an alternate strategy for eliminating DS2, like, oh I don't know, infiltrating the station itself and irreparably sabotaging it somehow while allowing all the station personnel adequate time to evacuate. But that wasn't the plan, the plan was a full frontal assault that would undoubtedly result in thousands of deaths, ally and enemy both.
It wasn't his plan. If you recall, he wasn't even in the room when the plan was outlined.
lol he knew the plan, come on man. If he wanted, he could have talked the big heads into a different strategy. But nah, killing thousands of nameless faceless Imperials is lots more fun. After all, it is Star Wars and there isn't much room for pacifism.
No he couldn't. That's not how it works.
The British Conscientious Objectors during the First World War weren't allowed to talk the big heads into a different strategy. The big heads didn't say "oh you object to killing, how would you solve this problem, then?"
They shipped them off to the battlefields as medics and other support roles. Many Conscientious Objectors ran into battle, unarmed, purely to retrieve the wounded.
They followed the chain of command. Luke didn't outrank Ackbar or Mon Mothma, he followed the chain of command.
What you are suggesting doesn't fit in with the Star Wars Universe or even reality. Sorry.
The force awakens was ok (a new hope 2). The last Jedi was garbage
I see you call TFA "A New Hope 2". You're not one of those people who complained that TFA was too similar to what had gone before and then later complained that TLJ was too different to what had gone before, are you?
Because that was just silly, wasn't it? "Give us something different! ... Argh, that's different!"
Nah, you're not one of those.
I mean, those people who complained like that were basically saying that they would only "like" a new Star Wars movie if it fit in exactly with what they wanted it to be after more than a decade of deciding for themselves what it had to be - no deviation allowed. These preconceived rigid lines must be followed and anything else means the film is bad.
But no, you're not one of those.
No, I’m not. As I say, I liked the force awakens. It was a little by the numbers but took some risks which were executed very well (killing Han)
The last Jedi makes absolutely no sense as a film. I have no problem with it being different. I do have a problem with it being 💩.
The Casino literally doesn’t matter and wastes about an hour. Nothing interesting happens at the casino either.
The central plot theme revolves around running out of petrol. The First Order could have called reinforcements to attack from the other side rather than following at a snails pace for hours.
Leia flying around in space is cringeworthy. Even if you believe it makes sense from a story perspective (I don’t) it was horrifically executed.
Luke’s arc makes no sense:
- Your nephew is turning to the dark side!
- Cool, I’m gonna go live on an island and milk aliens. Screw him.
”I disagree with pretty much every decision you have made for this character” Mark Hamil to Rian, during filming.
Rey’s lineage, another waste of time. The whole thing in the cave with the finger clicking, more time wasted.
It’s not just a terrible Star Wars film. It is the worst film I have seen in years.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
Catwoman
Basic Instinct 2
This Island Earth
Garbage Pail Kids: The Movie
Mac & Me
Uwe Boll movies
The Matrix trilogy (but that's just me)
The First Wives Club
The Sweetest Thing
The Doom Generation
.... I can go on and on.
In my opinion TLJ is worse. I just absolutely hated it from start to finish. The others might be bad films, none of them ruined Luke Skywalker.
Luke walking off and abandoning his family will never wash with me. It’s like the final season of game of thrones 😂.
Fair enough if others like it though.
Dude, I ASSURE YOU, nothing will disappoint you more than watching Catwoman face off against a villain whose only ability is having a concrete head... only to watch Catwoman REPEATEDLY kick said villain on her hardhead, and that's after 90 minutes of nothing even remotely intriguing happening (slow space chases are looking good about now). It stains the memory and boggles the soul.
Also, one look at Garbage Pail Kids, Mac & Me, and Baby: Secret of the Lost Legend will make you doubt the power of practical effects, and the first example was made by an industry giant (Rick Baker).
The Doom Generation... the less said, the better. Just be afraid of Clone Keanu Reeves in that one.
And on and on... The Last Luke ain't got nothin' on those abominations. We all need to run from them.
I guess all that makes sense. Maybe I should let go of my expectations.
It just felt really wrong when I first saw it. I was so excited, and I really wanted it to be good. But I guess I was expecting too much of the past. And Kylo be like let the past die. I should have listened to him.
Maybe it’s a good thing that Abrams is back. Maybe he’ll give us what we want: big shock reveals and a resolution for our favorite heroes. Or maybe what we want will actually kill the past instead of letting go of it. I don’t know. I guess we will see.
HA! Resolution. Abrams. For once, I can only hope. My guess is that the ending will be an anticipatory carrot stick for the Old Republic trilogy, in which the Jedi have to face off against their greatest foe: a living Mystery Box!!
Replies
Actually ... I believe it is what the majority of the audience sees. As I said above, in my experience the only people who have a problem with it are those who read the Expanded Universe novels and had a rigid view of Luke as a result. Nobody else I know has a problem with it.
He ignores Leia for so long because he has come to believe that he has made things worse and that staying will continue to make it even more so. He tried to talk to Kylo and failed and now knows that as a result he lost his one chance to talk to him and that Kylo will try to kill him immediately should he ever see him again; which is exactly what happens when Luke appears in front of the FO Army.
Luke can't help Kylo anymore. He believes that staying will only makes things worse. So he leaves.
A character has TWO masters who BOTH do X. Therefore the character learns the lesson to do X.
You really think that doesn't work??
A character has a core identity of loyalty to family, but because two other did something under different circumstances... he should abandon everything he stands for and do the same.
Yeah, it’s a poor argument.
He doesn't abandon everything he stands for. I've already illustrated why. He is trying to be a pacifist and I have listed extensive evidence to that fact but you keep ignoring it.
Pacifist eh? Must be why he had all those lightsaber fights, oh and blew up a space station killing loads of people.
Then where did the backlash come from? Luke is a Jedi. His duty is to keep the peace. By doing nothing, he has failed. The Luke from TLJ does not deserve to be a Jedi. The one from ROTJ strolled right up to Vader to face his problems knowing full well that it was his fault that he led his friends into a trap. That’s the Luke I know.
He develops as a character and becomes a pacifist by the beginning of ROTJ. I have extensively listed his repeated attempts to avoid fighting throughout ROTJ. Before that film, not so much but he has changed and grown as a character. He starts ANH as wanting adventure and excitement but Yoda teaches him that a Jedi seeks not these things and Luke wants to be a Jedi more than anything else so grows out of wanting them and tries to follow the path of peace.
The Luke in TLJ doesn't want to be a Jedi any longer. He has changed in the intervening years. Character growth, again. He has come to believe that it is time for the Jedi Order ... to end.
And he didn't stroll up to Vader to face his problems; he strolled up to Vader to try and save Vader. Just like he strolled up to Ben to try and save Ben; only it didn't work that time.
Not to save Vader. He knew he had to save Vader so that he could defeat the dark side, but his goal was to defeat evil and save his friends and ultimately, protect the galaxy. That is the duty of a Jedi, and that’s what he’s missing in TLJ. He thinks that the Jedi should end because of... what exactly? HIS mistake? The Luke that we’ve been shown before has conquered his fear, and should be able to face his mistakes. Yes, even our greatest hero’s make mistakes. They are our hero’s because they face their mistakes. The only development between failing with Kylo and TLJ is becoming a terrified mess. That’s not the Luke from the OT.
Another issue is Rey. She is shown to be much better than Luke in TLJ. She is supposed to “grow beyond” Luke according to Yoda. But she doesn’t grow. She’s always been perfect, and hasn’t had to face any real internal struggle. She wants to know who she is; which never actually harms her, like Luke’s desire to help his friends. She’s just too perfect, and that belittles Luke, which is honestly pretty insulting to anyone who believed in Luke.
If TLJ is the worst film you've seen in years, there's a ton of Golden Raspberry winning movies out there for you to enjoy that I guarantee you are *far* worse.
Once and for all, it's CARRIE POPPINS!
Secondly, the Force is more than just training. It controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands. Self-preservation is a vital part of that.
Thirdly, did you notice that she entered an airlock alcove before the airlock opened? That's how she got inside.
"I rest on your face... hhhhuh huh huh... I mean, I rest my case."
I honestly have no idea what you’re even trying to argue...
I’m sure there are. None of them detract from a franchise I love however.
Watch POTC 4. Also Jurassic Park 3. If you haven’t seen the movies before those, watch them first, and then experience the facepalm on another level.
To be truthful, I’ve never let one movie detract from the rest of a franchise. TLJ isn’t my favorite, but it’s the way it is. In the words of Steve Rodgers until he becomes a hypocrite two minutes later: You gotta move on.
1. The Luke you knew found out about the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order, which in turn created Vader. Finding out he created Kylo Ren, under years of his own aegis, can shatter a guy's expectation of one's own "legacy". Because he just had to be "Luke Skywalker: Jedi Master" (TM).
2. Because of the hypocrisy that the Jedi represent true balance. They failed due to their own hubris. Luke tried to succeed over that, only to fall for the same trap. What Disneyfilm wants to impart to you is that Kylo (and Rey) is an even stronger presence in the Force than Anakin (which I'll never agree to, but okay Mouse House). From then on, nothing Luke could do in his "power" that he already attempted in all the time he trained Kylo. To do-or-do-not the same thing over and over again is the definition of insanity, so Luke did the only sane thing he could: cut himself off from the Force, realizing that he'd only use it to do-or-do-not the same thing over again, and end up pulling a Finn. In doing so, he didn't realize anything about the First Order.
I'm EXTREMELY sure I've gone to even greater length on this in the Last Jedi thread.
3. She's never been perfect. She grew as the story went along. Y'see, when you speak of "power", you only focus on her abilities in the Force, in videogame fashion, as if no one has ever gained those powers by simply honing them (not Anakin as a Podracer, not Luke Skywalker: Skyhoping Murderhobo of Womprats (TM), not Leia as a telepath on Bespin... nah, they don't count), when real power is what you do with your abilities. She was still stuck in "muh legacy" mode, realizing that she is her own person, as Stenun suggested. Here's a list of her failures and inner struggles...
-Waiting for people who don't matter in her life to define her life
-"Oh no. Wrong fuses."
-Being scared of and not wanting any part of her future
-Her first fight with Kylo
-Saving Han
-Also thinking that the Force is just some trivial power... "Lifting rocks..."
-Tempting the Dark Side just to find answers of her past
-Trying to repeat a legendary past by trying to convert Kylo to the Light
Those sound far more interesting for a character than going "over 9000!!!"
YODA: Luke... we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.
The Jedi are what Rey has grown beyond. And that's the beauty of the movie's end: it can go anywhere. Sadly now, that path may lead to Abrams's coveted galaxy of Mystery Boxes, which a conclusion can go without.
PS: The best thing about Rey is that Last Jedi haters don't even realize how much they are just like her. All they have to do is grow beyond their expectations.
Catwoman
Basic Instinct 2
This Island Earth
Garbage Pail Kids: The Movie
Mac & Me
Uwe Boll movies
The Matrix trilogy (but that's just me)
The First Wives Club
The Sweetest Thing
The Doom Generation
.... I can go on and on.
In my opinion TLJ is worse. I just absolutely hated it from start to finish. The others might be bad films, none of them ruined Luke Skywalker.
Luke walking off and abandoning his family will never wash with me. It’s like the final season of game of thrones 😂.
Fair enough if others like it though.
Let's hear it for pacifism.
I'm sure the scout trooper that Luke threw off his speeder bike into a giant tree would argue against Luke's pacifist nature. Like, "Dude, you could have just tossed me into a meadow, you didn't need to throw me into a tree."
After this whopping at the end of ESB, Luke does everything he can to avoid violence and only uses it as a last resort. I have outlined many, many examples of this.
If "pacifist" is not the word to use for someone like that, what word would you prefer?
It's not a last resort if you actively plan for violence. If Luke were a pacifist, he would have planned an alternate strategy for eliminating DS2, like, oh I don't know, infiltrating the station itself and irreparably sabotaging it somehow while allowing all the station personnel adequate time to evacuate. But that wasn't the plan, the plan was a full frontal assault that would undoubtedly result in thousands of deaths, ally and enemy both.
I suppose Grand Moff Tarkin was a pacifist too. I mean, he tried to use politics to stop the Alderaanian royalty from supporting the rebellion (see the novel Leia for this story), but when that didn't work he pacified the whole durn planet with the Death Star.
Sorry, but I reject your explanation of Luke's character arc. Just doesn't fit.
It just felt really wrong when I first saw it. I was so excited, and I really wanted it to be good. But I guess I was expecting too much of the past. And Kylo be like let the past die. I should have listened to him.
Maybe it’s a good thing that Abrams is back. Maybe he’ll give us what we want: big shock reveals and a resolution for our favorite heroes. Or maybe what we want will actually kill the past instead of letting go of it. I don’t know. I guess we will see.
It wasn't his plan. If you recall, he wasn't even in the room when the plan was outlined.
The problem as I see it is that in rotj, Luke finally learns that he must keep control in that last moment when he cuts vader's hand off and realizes what he'll become if he continues to let his emotions control him.
Tlj takes his character development a step backwards and undoes what he learned in rotj in the flashback. They do the same with han solo in tfa. Thoughout the original trilogy, we see three movies of him growing from caring only about himself to caring about his friends and starting a family. Then suddenly he's abandoning his family and going back to his smuggling ways with no explanation.
The same applies to Luke. The point of Rotj, was that he learned to control his emotions and not give into anger. Tge tlj undoes that by having him once again give into anger (though only temporarily) in the flashback scene.
I can even see him giving up and going into hiding to await another to train to defeat snoke (that's what yoda did after being defeated by ep). You could even say that he matured enough to realize that he coukd do no more and that the will of the force demanded patience. Once again look at yoda and obiwan. They went into exile but had a plan. Luke just gave up. It may seem like a minor difference to some but it really is a huge difference.
And in ep 7 it looked like that was the case, Luke had gone off to hide and eventually train Rey. I'm guessing that was at one point part of the plan. But in the last jedi they just decided that rey needed no training and made luke just give up instead.
They could have even done a version of luke giving up at first and still eventually training Rey had they not arbitrarily put a 19hr space chase in the movie ensuring that everything had to happen within a day after the force awakens.
It's just poor execution that no one asked why doesn't Rey need any training to become a jedi? Everyone else did. Anakin had years of training. Luke had at least days/weeks/or months of training depending on how long you think the chase from hoth to bespin took and how long they were on bespin before he left. Not to mention a two or three year time skip where I would assume he practiced wjat old ben had taught him. But Rey doesn't know what the force is and two days later, she is doing feats it took Luke years to learn.
You can say she's gifted, but that's just lazy writing. She can lift the rocks at the end because the plot needs it.
He chops off Vader’s hand at the end of Jedi.
Luke is not a pacifist. Never has been.
Yes. And that's the moment he regains control.
Luke is not a perfect pacifist. He is TRYING to be a pacifist but can be provoked into violence when he loses his control. I have gone into this extensively previously in the thread.
He loses control then regains control several times.
His initial plan to rescue Han from Jabba is to sneak in, get him and sneak out. Peacefully. It fails.
He then lets Han try to bribe Jabba. Peacefully. It fails.
He then threatens Jabba. Not entirely peaceful but it's still not actual violence. It fails.
As a fourth option, as the very last resort as he's being thrown into the Sarlacc Pit, he commits violence.
And a direct copy and paste from earlier in this thread:
"On Endor, Luke surrendered to Vader peacefully. He adopted the path of peace.
He was taken to the Throne Room where he refused to fight. He adopted the path of peace.
Eventually, the Emperor provoked Luke enough that Luke lost control for a brief moment and ended up in a fight with Vader. But then he regains control. When we return to the Throne Room a little later, Luke has stopped fighting. He is hiding in the shadows. He adopted the path of peace.
Finally, after repeatedly trying to goad him, Vader provoked Luke enough that Luke lost control for a brief moment and ended up in a fight with Vader. But then he regains control. He throws his weapon down and refuses to fight. He adopted the path of peace.
Vader is the one who throws the Emperor down the shaft of Death Star II. Vader is the who who destroys the Dark Side. Not Luke. Luke tried every step of the way to follow the path of peace. He just kept failing.
Skip to the events of The Last Jedi ...
Luke knows Ben is falling to evil. So instead of responding violently, Luke goes to Ben to try and talk to him about it. He adopted the path of peace.
But he has a vision of Ben's future and lost control for a brief moment. But unlike the previous instances, he regains control very quickly and doesn't attack. He adopted the path of peace.
But this time, it's too late ... Ben is awake.
Luke, ashamed that once again he had failed to stay on the path of peace and knowing that this time it will have disastrous consequences, leaves rather than risk another momentary loss of control making it worse yet again. He adopted the path of peace.
Finally, Rey and Yoda convince him that you don't have to run from your mistakes.
So he returns. And he adopts the path of peace and rescues the survivors. He finally clings to the path of peace throughout and saves the day.
And then he dies. Peacefully."
lol he knew the plan, come on man. If he wanted, he could have talked the big heads into a different strategy. But nah, killing thousands of nameless faceless Imperials is lots more fun. After all, it is Star Wars and there isn't much room for pacifism.
No he couldn't. That's not how it works.
The British Conscientious Objectors during the First World War weren't allowed to talk the big heads into a different strategy. The big heads didn't say "oh you object to killing, how would you solve this problem, then?"
They shipped them off to the battlefields as medics and other support roles. Many Conscientious Objectors ran into battle, unarmed, purely to retrieve the wounded.
They followed the chain of command. Luke didn't outrank Ackbar or Mon Mothma, he followed the chain of command.
What you are suggesting doesn't fit in with the Star Wars Universe or even reality. Sorry.
Dude, I ASSURE YOU, nothing will disappoint you more than watching Catwoman face off against a villain whose only ability is having a concrete head... only to watch Catwoman REPEATEDLY kick said villain on her hardhead, and that's after 90 minutes of nothing even remotely intriguing happening (slow space chases are looking good about now). It stains the memory and boggles the soul.
Also, one look at Garbage Pail Kids, Mac & Me, and Baby: Secret of the Lost Legend will make you doubt the power of practical effects, and the first example was made by an industry giant (Rick Baker).
The Doom Generation... the less said, the better. Just be afraid of Clone Keanu Reeves in that one.
And on and on... The Last Luke ain't got nothin' on those abominations. We all need to run from them.
HA! Resolution. Abrams. For once, I can only hope. My guess is that the ending will be an anticipatory carrot stick for the Old Republic trilogy, in which the Jedi have to face off against their greatest foe: a living Mystery Box!!