The Rise of Skywalker

Replies

  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 3
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.
  • Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    Also just because she is a Palpatine, doesn't necessarily make her super strong in the force - from what we know of force genetics, she would likely be more powerful than the average force user, coming from a powerful force wielding bloodline.

    But Kylo/Ben is from the Skywalker bloodline, lineage of the Chosen One - the most force power potent bloodline possible - which trumps Rey's lineage.

    The only thing JJ could come up with to counter the set Star Wars lore in this regard was the whole surviving Jedi/Sith inherent the power of fallen Jedi/Sith respectively - which doesn't make any sense and is just a can of worms.

    Following that inheritance logic of passing power, there were always only 2 Sith - that would have made Darth Maul super OP, yet was defeated by Padawan Obi Wan. And since Maul later is not Sith - what happens to all his "power"?

    Additionally, who got Vader's power when he died? Palpatine? But Vader was redeemed back to Anakin, so Rey got Anakin's power?

    It's all just a muddled illogical mess.

    Or you could, you know, not interpret every word as literal. Everyone goes on about some transfer of power but its entirely based on the words of two people in a fight scene of a movie. Now, knowing Palpatine, he probably had found a way to harness extra power, but people are latching on as a way to hate the movie.
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  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    Also just because she is a Palpatine, doesn't necessarily make her super strong in the force - from what we know of force genetics, she would likely be more powerful than the average force user, coming from a powerful force wielding bloodline.

    But Kylo/Ben is from the Skywalker bloodline, lineage of the Chosen One - the most force power potent bloodline possible - which trumps Rey's lineage.

    The only thing JJ could come up with to counter the set Star Wars lore in this regard was the whole surviving Jedi/Sith inherent the power of fallen Jedi/Sith respectively - which doesn't make any sense and is just a can of worms.

    Following that inheritance logic of passing power, there were always only 2 Sith - that would have made Darth Maul super OP, yet was defeated by Padawan Obi Wan. And since Maul later is not Sith - what happens to all his "power"?

    Additionally, who got Vader's power when he died? Palpatine? But Vader was redeemed back to Anakin, so Rey got Anakin's power?

    It's all just a muddled illogical mess.

    Or you could, you know, not interpret every word as literal. Everyone goes on about some transfer of power but its entirely based on the words of two people in a fight scene of a movie. Now, knowing Palpatine, he probably had found a way to harness extra power, but people are latching on as a way to hate the movie.

    Watch the movie again, if you really want that kind of self-torture, lol
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    Also just because she is a Palpatine, doesn't necessarily make her super strong in the force - from what we know of force genetics, she would likely be more powerful than the average force user, coming from a powerful force wielding bloodline.

    But Kylo/Ben is from the Skywalker bloodline, lineage of the Chosen One - the most force power potent bloodline possible - which trumps Rey's lineage.

    The only thing JJ could come up with to counter the set Star Wars lore in this regard was the whole surviving Jedi/Sith inherent the power of fallen Jedi/Sith respectively - which doesn't make any sense and is just a can of worms.

    Following that inheritance logic of passing power, there were always only 2 Sith - that would have made Darth Maul super OP, yet was defeated by Padawan Obi Wan. And since Maul later is not Sith - what happens to all his "power"?

    Additionally, who got Vader's power when he died? Palpatine? But Vader was redeemed back to Anakin, so Rey got Anakin's power?

    It's all just a muddled illogical mess.

    Or you could, you know, not interpret every word as literal. Everyone goes on about some transfer of power but its entirely based on the words of two people in a fight scene of a movie. Now, knowing Palpatine, he probably had found a way to harness extra power, but people are latching on as a way to hate the movie.

    Watch the movie again, if you really want that kind of self-torture, lol

    I have watched it twice. You see what you want to see because you are looking for reasons to hate the ST, and specifically this movie.

    I challenge you to find the part where rey does anything that implies having all the strength of all the jedi. At the end, she reflects Palps power (which apparently has increased in his time recovering and with the force drain), and this reflection is nothing new.
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  • Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.
  • LordDirt
    1721 posts Member
    edited January 4
    Sorry but Palpatine does say he has all the Sith in him and they will transfer to her when she strikes him down. No way to miss understand that.

    Everything we learn about Rey does make her the strongest Force user just because. They never go into her background of why she is so strong. Why did Jedi need to be trained early in life if you can just be the best by default at 20? Why could she beat Palpatine when Yoda couldn’t?
  • Boo wrote: »
    Baby_Yoda wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    This movie looks horrible - I'll pass and catch it on Disney+, I know that will be like another 6 months or so, but that only shows my complete lack of interest.

    Ok Boo










    Mer

    Funny thing is I am not a "boomer" far from it, lol - "OK boomer is so insipid. It’s the perfect put-down for an inarticulate generation that speaks and thinks in text."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/ok-zoomer-is-that-really-the-best-youve-got/

    Funny how the best "Boomers" can come up with to combat against an "insipid insult" is "ok zoomer", which is the exact same "insult" but with the new generation's name instead :eyeroll:

    There are no Boomers in this forum. I don't think you know what the term means.
  • TVF
    25900 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Baby_Yoda wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    This movie looks horrible - I'll pass and catch it on Disney+, I know that will be like another 6 months or so, but that only shows my complete lack of interest.

    Ok Boo










    Mer

    Funny thing is I am not a "boomer" far from it, lol - "OK boomer is so insipid. It’s the perfect put-down for an inarticulate generation that speaks and thinks in text."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/ok-zoomer-is-that-really-the-best-youve-got/

    Funny how the best "Boomers" can come up with to combat against an "insipid insult" is "ok zoomer", which is the exact same "insult" but with the new generation's name instead :eyeroll:

    There are no Boomers in this forum.

    Source please.
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  • Boo wrote: »
    Baby_Yoda wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    This movie looks horrible - I'll pass and catch it on Disney+, I know that will be like another 6 months or so, but that only shows my complete lack of interest.

    Ok Boo










    Mer

    Funny thing is I am not a "boomer" far from it, lol - "OK boomer is so insipid. It’s the perfect put-down for an inarticulate generation that speaks and thinks in text."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/ok-zoomer-is-that-really-the-best-youve-got/

    Funny how the best "Boomers" can come up with to combat against an "insipid insult" is "ok zoomer", which is the exact same "insult" but with the new generation's name instead :eyeroll:

    There are no Boomers in this forum. I don't think you know what the term means.

    Are you implying that people born between 1945 and ~1964 are incapable of using a website, or dont like star wars?
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out the Underworld Alliance on Discord:https://discord.gg/wvrYb4Q
  • Thought it was just "ok", like EP 7 & 8, though unlike the majority it seems I liked 8 more than 7 or 9

    What I like more than all 3 of them was Rogue One, much better
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    Also just because she is a Palpatine, doesn't necessarily make her super strong in the force - from what we know of force genetics, she would likely be more powerful than the average force user, coming from a powerful force wielding bloodline.

    But Kylo/Ben is from the Skywalker bloodline, lineage of the Chosen One - the most force power potent bloodline possible - which trumps Rey's lineage.

    The only thing JJ could come up with to counter the set Star Wars lore in this regard was the whole surviving Jedi/Sith inherent the power of fallen Jedi/Sith respectively - which doesn't make any sense and is just a can of worms.

    Following that inheritance logic of passing power, there were always only 2 Sith - that would have made Darth Maul super OP, yet was defeated by Padawan Obi Wan. And since Maul later is not Sith - what happens to all his "power"?

    Additionally, who got Vader's power when he died? Palpatine? But Vader was redeemed back to Anakin, so Rey got Anakin's power?

    It's all just a muddled illogical mess.

    Or you could, you know, not interpret every word as literal. Everyone goes on about some transfer of power but its entirely based on the words of two people in a fight scene of a movie. Now, knowing Palpatine, he probably had found a way to harness extra power, but people are latching on as a way to hate the movie.

    Watch the movie again, if you really want that kind of self-torture, lol

    I have watched it twice. You see what you want to see because you are looking for reasons to hate the ST, and specifically this movie.

    I challenge you to find the part where rey does anything that implies having all the strength of all the jedi. At the end, she reflects Palps power (which apparently has increased in his time recovering and with the force drain), and this reflection is nothing new.

    Well the Jedi (especially Luke) comment that all 1000 generations of Jedi are within her. She does not represent the Jedi in that part of the script (she of course does being the last one) but it is there power and essence that are within her.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    If you read the article, the author actually IS arguing that. So, I guess you can argue it. There are, however, certain things you can't argue with.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 6
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    If you read the article, the author actually IS arguing that. So, I guess you can argue it. There are, however, certain things you can't argue with.

    I am sure people argue that the Earth is flat as well - same thing, facts are facts and it is what it is. The Earth IS round and Rey IS a Mary Sue.
  • Gifafi
    5060 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    so, I finally googled this mary sue thing, and wow, lol. I mean, luke spent his days pew-pewing at womprats and driving around in a convertible, got 5 minutes of training on a bus ride, and used the force to (SPOILERS) blow up the d-star, but the hardscrapple teen fighting her whole life is a mary sue bc she can wield a weapon and fight off someone who doesn't want to kill her? alrighty then
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    so, I finally googled this mary sue thing, and wow, lol. I mean, luke spent his days pew-pewing at womprats and driving around in a convertible, got 5 minutes of training on a bus ride, and used the force to (SPOILERS) blow up the d-star, but the hardscrapple teen fighting her whole life is a mary sue bc she can wield a weapon and fight off someone who doesn't want to kill her? alrighty then

    You are joking right?

    * Luke was the son of the Force personified.
    * Luke had natural talents such as fixing things and piloting
    * Luke had pilot training in his T-16 (similar to a X-wing), transversing through Beggar's Canyon (similar to the Death Star trench), shooting Womp Rats (similar to th eDeath Star exhaust port)
    * Luke had training from a Jedi Master to alolow the force to guide his actions, to do what he has already done before as discussed.
    * Luke has extensive training under Yoda (which likely took weeks considering the Falcon travelled systems, without a Hyper Drive), and struggled to lift his X-wing.
    * Luke also faced Vader and lost a hand.
    * Luke also had extensive training between ESB and ROTJ


    * Rey fought using a staff - very different from a sword.
    * Rey could pilot the Falcon, with 0 piloting experience.
    * Rey could complete complicated force techniques (not just guided actions) such as mind trick, force pull etc. with no training.
    * Rey could best well trained force users using the force
    * Rey could best well trained lightsaber duelists, with no training
    * Rey could lift many large boulders with no training.
    * Rey had NO training. Luke did not teach her a thing - only his philosophy for her to understand why he was a hermit.


    Luke = character development and growth, struggles, failures, accomplishments
    Rey = poor character development and no growth, no struggles, no failures, excels at everything.

    Rey = Mary Sue.
  • This whole discussion reminds me of the Highlander film, which was wildly successful and spawned a franchise of sequels and television series. Yet much of the following material was awful. Highlander 2 was generally panned as complete garbage because it broke all the rules set down by the original, yet some viewers still liked it and somehow the franchise continued on.
    That's kind of how I feel about what Star Wars has developed into. The preceeding stories don't matter as long as there are flashy fight scenes to oooooooh and aaaaaah over.
  • Gifafi
    5060 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    so, I finally googled this mary sue thing, and wow, lol. I mean, luke spent his days pew-pewing at womprats and driving around in a convertible, got 5 minutes of training on a bus ride, and used the force to (SPOILERS) blow up the d-star, but the hardscrapple teen fighting her whole life is a mary sue bc she can wield a weapon and fight off someone who doesn't want to kill her? alrighty then

    You are joking right?

    * Luke was the son of the Force personified.
    * Luke had natural talents such as fixing things and piloting
    * Luke had pilot training in his T-16 (similar to a X-wing), transversing through Beggar's Canyon (similar to the Death Star trench), shooting Womp Rats (similar to th eDeath Star exhaust port)
    * Luke had training from a Jedi Master to alolow the force to guide his actions, to do what he has already done before as discussed.
    * Luke has extensive training under Yoda (which likely took weeks considering the Falcon travelled systems, without a Hyper Drive), and struggled to lift his X-wing.
    * Luke also faced Vader and lost a hand.
    * Luke also had extensive training between ESB and ROTJ


    * Rey fought using a staff - very different from a sword.
    * Rey could pilot the Falcon, with 0 piloting experience.
    * Rey could complete complicated force techniques (not just guided actions) such as mind trick, force pull etc. with no training.
    * Rey could best well trained force users using the force
    * Rey could best well trained lightsaber duelists, with no training
    * Rey could lift many large boulders with no training.
    * Rey had NO training. Luke did not teach her a thing - only his philosophy for her to understand why he was a hermit.


    Luke = character development and growth, struggles, failures, accomplishments
    Rey = poor character development and no growth, no struggles, no failures, excels at everything.

    Rey = Mary Sue.

    rey was the gdaufghter of most powerful sith ever
    rey had natural talents such as fixing thing, scavenging and surviving
    luke had 5min of training from old b
    luke had some training from yoda, and lost to the dopest baddy around, also bc vader didn't want to kill him, same as rey v kylo. Also, losing to vader somehow proves one of your points?
    rey had extensive training between tlj and tros

    lol a staff is soooo different than a sword, great point
    rey had innate abilities and a force bond with kylo
    again, kylo didn't want to kill rey
    luke didn't train rey when he was training rey, and apparently neither did leia? whelp

    rey had no growth, no struggles, excels at everything? lol did you watch the movies??
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    If you read the article, the author actually IS arguing that. So, I guess you can argue it. There are, however, certain things you can't argue with.

    I am sure people argue that the Earth is flat as well - same thing, facts are facts and it is what it is. The Earth IS round and Rey IS a Mary Sue.

    Thank you for making my last point so eloquently.
  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Gifafi wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Only thing Rey struggled with was who her family was. She wanted to belong. That is the reason she latched on to Han and Leia. It is the same reason she felt the connection to Kylo Ren. She wanted a family.

    She is a true Mary Sue by definition.

    So she had major flaws and exploitable needs, yet was a Mary Sue, by definition? Ohhhh K.

    Although she had some struggles in her place of being (who she was and where she came from), yes she was a Mary Sue, as she unexplainably did everything the story needed her to do, completely over powered in face of logic, character development or creative story writing, purely because she was made to be exactly what the plot needed her to be and when... Mary Sue.

    She was also instantly liked by everyone, even the main antagonist of the ST. She also did not grow - she had everything handed to her from day 1. No compelling story arc or any real problems to overcome and grow from.

    Thought this was a good article:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/#49c68a754500

    Worth the read if you're interested in opposing points of view.

    But she IS the very definition of a Mary Sue - can't argue that.

    so, I finally googled this mary sue thing, and wow, lol. I mean, luke spent his days pew-pewing at womprats and driving around in a convertible, got 5 minutes of training on a bus ride, and used the force to (SPOILERS) blow up the d-star, but the hardscrapple teen fighting her whole life is a mary sue bc she can wield a weapon and fight off someone who doesn't want to kill her? alrighty then

    You are joking right?

    * Luke was the son of the Force personified.
    * Luke had natural talents such as fixing things and piloting
    * Luke had pilot training in his T-16 (similar to a X-wing), transversing through Beggar's Canyon (similar to the Death Star trench), shooting Womp Rats (similar to th eDeath Star exhaust port)
    * Luke had training from a Jedi Master to alolow the force to guide his actions, to do what he has already done before as discussed.
    * Luke has extensive training under Yoda (which likely took weeks considering the Falcon travelled systems, without a Hyper Drive), and struggled to lift his X-wing.
    * Luke also faced Vader and lost a hand.
    * Luke also had extensive training between ESB and ROTJ


    * Rey fought using a staff - very different from a sword.
    * Rey could pilot the Falcon, with 0 piloting experience.
    * Rey could complete complicated force techniques (not just guided actions) such as mind trick, force pull etc. with no training.
    * Rey could best well trained force users using the force
    * Rey could best well trained lightsaber duelists, with no training
    * Rey could lift many large boulders with no training.
    * Rey had NO training. Luke did not teach her a thing - only his philosophy for her to understand why he was a hermit.


    Luke = character development and growth, struggles, failures, accomplishments
    Rey = poor character development and no growth, no struggles, no failures, excels at everything.

    Rey = Mary Sue.

    rey was the gdaufghter of most powerful sith ever
    rey had natural talents such as fixing thing, scavenging and surviving
    luke had 5min of training from old b
    luke had some training from yoda, and lost to the dopest baddy around, also bc vader didn't want to kill him, same as rey v kylo. Also, losing to vader somehow proves one of your points?
    rey had extensive training between tlj and tros

    lol a staff is soooo different than a sword, great point
    rey had innate abilities and a force bond with kylo
    again, kylo didn't want to kill rey
    luke didn't train rey when he was training rey, and apparently neither did leia? whelp

    rey had no growth, no struggles, excels at everything? lol did you watch the movies??

    rey was the gdaufghter of most powerful sith ever

    - that is arguable that Palps was the "most powerful sith ever", even so, his genetic lineage is not as superior than the Skywalker lineage. Even Anakin required years and years of training (10 years between E1 and 2 for a start). Rey could use complicated techniques, because the plot demanded it.

    rey had natural talents such as fixing thing, scavenging and surviving

    - that is why I did not bother mentioning those natural talents. I agree, those are fine.


    luke had 5min of training from old b

    - Old Ben trained Luke in basic lightsaber defence as well as allowing the force to guide him, which Luke had naturally done in the first place, he just needed to the force to obey his command in doing so. Secondly We do not know how long it could take to travel from one system to another - could have been hours. Again, Luke is of the Skywalker lineage, as I have described multiple times already.


    luke had some training from yoda, and lost to the dopest baddy around, also bc vader didn't want to kill him, same as rey v kylo. again, kylo didn't want to kill rey. Also, losing to vader somehow proves one of your points?

    - Luke likely had several weeks of training with Yoda on Dagobah. He lost to Vader - who literally was the most powerful being in the force. Vader did "hold back" as you correctly mentioned, but didn't stop Luke from losing a hand in the process.
    - Rey, never lost to Kylo. Yes Kylo was a little injured and also held back, but due to his lineage and training, he could have subdued Rey and took her as his apprentice. He failed, physically in lightsaber combat, as well as in the force (losing his mind battle and having it redirected back at him and his "tug of war" with the lightsaber).
    So yes, this proves a huge point. Even Luke was bested by Tuskens and scum in a cantina - Rey is just OP in all categories, lol.




    rey had extensive training between tlj and tros

    - I don't dispute that. She merely just carried on being the OP Mary Sue already established from TFA and TLJ.

    lol a staff is soooo different than a sword, great point
    - indeed. Having personally trained extensively in weapons (including staff and sword) they are very, very different tools.

    rey had innate abilities and a force bond with kylo

    Sure - and that trumps the Skywalker lineage of character development, where the most powerful blood line created by the force itself, requires those characters extensive training, where Rey requires nothing? Again, Rey's abilities are driven by plot necessity alone, which is a common trait for a Mary Sue.

    luke didn't train rey when he was training rey, and apparently neither did leia? whelp

    - Great point. She did not get formally trained by Luke. We don't know what happened off-screen between Leia and Rey, as Rey refers to Leia as "Master". Rey also had the Jedi books to refer to. I do not dispute her growth between TLJ and TROS, again, she merely continued on her established Mary Sue path.

    rey had no growth, no struggles, excels at everything? lol did you watch the movies??

    I did watch the movies. She had some information to overcome in TROS, such as her lineage etc. but her character was already developed as a Mary Sue from TFA and TLJ - she had nothing to overcome and was instantly good at everything she did, with 0 training, instantly liked by all, including the main villain, lol. Again, traits of a Mary Sue.
  • Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH? He is good at flying a ship and shooting small things because the plot requires him to be the hero and blow up the Death Star.
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  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 6
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH? He is good at flying a ship and shooting small things because the plot requires him to be the hero and blow up the Death Star.

    If you read this thread you would have had your answer.

    * Luke had pilot training in his T-16 (similar to a X-wing), transversing through Beggar's Canyon (similar to the Death Star trench), shooting Womp Rats (similar to the Death Star exhaust port).
    * Luke had training from a Jedi Master to alllow the force to guide his actions, to do what he has already done before as discussed above, in addition he had some basic lightsaber defence training.
    * Luke's struggles in ANH alone were: Failure to look after a droid (he was tricked by a droid to remove a restraining bolt allowing the droid to escape), he was beaten by Tuskens, he was beaten by cantina scum and needing saving on both occasions. He also had to struggle and deal with the death of his aunt and uncle as well as his newfound mentor and friend and the death of another close friend, Biggs.

    On the flip side, Rey in TFA:

    * Has a droid respect her and be faithful to her.
    * Pilot's the Falcon like an expert, with no prior piloting skills established.
    * Defeats scum who jump her and BB8 at the scavenger camp, reinforcing statements that she does not need protecting or saving.
    * Carrying on life as her own boss scavenging and looking after herself without any responsibility
    * Defeats an established force user in the force as well as lightsaber combat, requiring no training to do so
    * completes complicated/difficult force techniques on the fly.

    Her only slight struggle is that of dealing with Han's death (a person she hardly knew, and turned down working with him to go back to Jakku and wait for her family). Han's death was more of a struggle for Chewie and Leia than anyone else.

    I would like to add that Luke's struggle over Obi Wan's death is different. Yes he hardly knew Ben, just as Rey hardly knew Han - but Rey had decided not to go with Han as he had offered her (2nd mate on the Falcon). She was happy if all else failed to return to Jakku and carry on life as she had done in the past.

    Luke on the other hand knew the Obi Wan was his father's master, which made him a close friend to the family. Luke had also lost his family on Tatooine, the life he had known was gone. He put his entire future into following Obi Wan to learn the ways of the force and all of that was taken away from him when he lost Obi Wan. he had his life turned upside twice in one movie!
  • TVF
    25900 posts Member
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH?

    Power Converters
    Fairness
    Getting off his home rock
    Keeping track of all his droids
    Fainting
    Getting a good deal for a speeder
    Height
    Bridge controls
    Not caring
    Saving Private Porkins
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  • Boo
    4116 posts Member
    edited January 6
    TVF wrote: »
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH?

    Power Converters
    Fairness
    Getting off his home rock
    Keeping track of all his droids
    Fainting
    Getting a good deal for a speeder
    Height
    Bridge controls
    Not caring
    Saving Private Porkins

    He actually got a bad deal for selling his speeder, but otherwise an excellent summary, lol

    He also got a little cooked, but was okay.
  • Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH?

    Power Converters
    Fairness
    Getting off his home rock
    Keeping track of all his droids
    Fainting
    Getting a good deal for a speeder
    Height
    Bridge controls
    Not caring
    Saving Private Porkins
    He actually got a bad deal for selling his speeder, but otherwise an excellent summary, lol
    Doesn't that mean that he is bad at getting a good deal for his speeder?
  • TVF
    25900 posts Member
    TFA Rey is bad at:

    Cleaning parts

    Negotiating prices for parts

    Holding hands

    Running fast enough to reach quad jumpers

    Flying

    Pointing at things

    Hiding from Han and Chewie's ship

    Hiding from Han and Chewie

    Hiding from death gangs

    Convincing Finn to not run away

    Bringing a lightsaber to a lightsaber fight

    Not getting stunned (i.e. bad at moving)

    Not fainting

    Not being captured

    Not being seen by Han when climbing walls

    Saving Private Han

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  • TVF
    25900 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH?

    Power Converters
    Fairness
    Getting off his home rock
    Keeping track of all his droids
    Fainting
    Getting a good deal for a speeder
    Height
    Bridge controls
    Not caring
    Saving Private Porkins
    He actually got a bad deal for selling his speeder, but otherwise an excellent summary, lol
    Doesn't that mean that he is bad at getting a good deal for his speeder?

    Yes.
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  • Why do I get involved in these things? For fun I guess ...
    Can someone refresh my memory, what is luke bad at or struggle with in ANH?
    Luke is:
    • bad at picking astromech droids with good motivators
    • bad at whining about power converters
    • bad at leaving restraining bolts on rogue droids
    • bad at fighting sand people
    • bad at keeping his aunt and uncle alive
    • bad at staying out of fights in Mos Eisley bars
    • bad at selling land speeders for a good price
    • bad at fighting training droids without a blast shield
    • bad at planning Alderaanian princess rescues
    • bad at escaping from dianogas in trash compactors
    • bad at sneaking around Imperial Death Stars without getting spotted
    • bad at keeping Obi-Wan Kenobi alive
    • bad at wooing rescued Alderaanian princesses
    • bad at shaking TIE fighters off his six
    • bad at saving his best friend Biggs from Darth Vader (a tough match for sure)
    Luke needed help doing everything. He would have died at least four times in ANH without help. He was very much a misplaced, untrained farmboy stumbling around making mistakes everywhere. He had a largely undeveloped affinity for using the Force that he was just beginning to discover.
    He is good at flying a ship and shooting small things because the plot requires him to be the hero and blow up the Death Star.
    TRUE! And why not? How fortunate for everyone involved that he had already unknowingly been cultivating his Force-enhanced targeting abilities by bullseye-ing womprats, a totally believable pastime for a farmboy. That he was able to use this ability to save the Rebel base was not terribly far-fetched.

    Luke is also:
    • good at whining about power converters
    • good at cleaning droids
    • good at becoming infatuated with beautiful Alderaanian princess holograms
    • good at staring into the sunset dreaming about rescuing beautiful Alderaanian princesses
    • good at finding rogue droids in deserts
    • good at fighting training droids with the blast shield down
    • good at having bad feelings about small moon-sized space stations
    • good at hiding in storage compartments
    • good at bribing scoundrels to help with badly planned Alderaanian princess rescue missions
    • good at shooting security cameras
    • good at swinging over Death Star chasms with beautiful Alderaanian princesses
    • good at channeling the Dark Side to shoot Stormtroopers and blast door control panels
    • good at learning how to use a quad laser turret to shoot a suicidal TIE pilot trying to let him get away
    • good at flying an X-wing fighter much like his T-16 back home
    • good at channeling the Force to bullseye a thermal exhaust port about the size of a Tattoine womprat
  • LordDirt
    1721 posts Member
    Saying Rey isnt a Mary Sue is like saying Superman isnt a Gary Sue.
  • Gifafi
    5060 posts Member
    rey is also bad at finding out what finn had to tell her, but, tbf, so is everybody else
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
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