GAC matchmaking - supposed to be funny?

14567810Next

Replies

  • Saada wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    Saada wrote: »
    No point arguing over and over...... your all not going to change your mind and neither are people who think mm can be improved.

    I also like @Akenno 's idea above since then people who are 5-1 won't be in the same league as someone who is 1-5

    Akenno suggested smaller (/more) divisions - not leagues.

    By introducing more leagues matches will have more even past performances. I like that better than most other suggestions.

    Oh. I skimmed too quick lol But more leagues to separate winners and losers sounded good to me too
    This is absolutely the best solution.

    I’ve not had my best GAC so far. Currently 5&3 with a few missed feats, some lower scoring matches and now no chance of Kyber.

    Yet, even if I lose the last round of current GA, a full clear of any description sees me reach Aurodium.

    This game mode is missing the mark if a 5&4 chump is in the same league as the 9&0 players after 3 GAs.
  • EventineElessedil
    6075 posts Member
    edited February 12
    It basically comes down to balancing higher Relic tiers vs. zetas. "Older" rosters with more zetas and lower relic tiers are at a disadvantage because many of those zetas have outlived their usefulness or are not required for a team to be effective (leadership zetas from past metas, "nice-to-haves" on toons like JTR and CLS) etc. etc.

    The blame-the-player-crowd can twist themselves into all of the knots they want, but this is simply dead GP weight that can never be made up and will always count against you. Arguing that it doesn't or that there's a way around it just makes you look like you haven't given things much thought.

    Here's a nice-to-have ... I use it to take down GAS. Yes, it works. :smile: CLS is not dead GP yet!
    fmg7Uxm.png
    Edit: oops, I use R2 Old Ben instead of g12 R2. Allows Chewie Guard on CLS.
  • EventineElessedil
    6075 posts Member
    edited February 12
    It basically comes down to balancing higher Relic tiers vs. zetas. "Older" rosters with more zetas and lower relic tiers are at a disadvantage because many of those zetas have outlived their usefulness or are not required for a team to be effective (leadership zetas from past metas, "nice-to-haves" on toons like JTR and CLS) etc. etc.

    The blame-the-player-crowd can twist themselves into all of the knots they want, but this is simply dead GP weight that can never be made up and will always count against you. Arguing that it doesn't or that there's a way around it just makes you look like you haven't given things much thought.

    Here's a nice-to-have ... I use it to take down GAS. Yes, it works. :smile: CLS is not dead GP yet!
    fmg7Uxm.png
    Edit: oops, I use R2 Old Ben instead of g12 R2. Allows Chewie Guard on CLS.

    { ... pic deleted ... } ;D

    Oops wrong pic. Back to the penalty box I go🤟

    Why would I lie?
    fc38xi1d0p8c.png
  • cannonfodder_iv
    962 posts Member
    edited February 12
    It basically comes down to balancing higher Relic tiers vs. zetas. "Older" rosters with more zetas and lower relic tiers are at a disadvantage because many of those zetas have outlived their usefulness or are not required for a team to be effective (leadership zetas from past metas, "nice-to-haves" on toons like JTR and CLS) etc. etc.

    The blame-the-player-crowd can twist themselves into all of the knots they want, but this is simply dead GP weight that can never be made up and will always count against you. Arguing that it doesn't or that there's a way around it just makes you look like you haven't given things much thought.

    Here's a nice-to-have ... I use it to take down GAS. Yes, it works. :smile: CLS is not dead GP yet!
    fmg7Uxm.png
    Edit: oops, I use R2 Old Ben instead of g12 R2. Allows Chewie Guard on CLS.

    LOL. Agreed CLS is still very useful, but he doesn't need all three of those zetas to be useful. Off topic, but does anyone else find it funny that GG's zeta and Badstilla's CBM completely neuter CLS teams but the newest and shiniest of content gets curbstomped by them when equivalently geared?

  • The first point looks good on paper, but in practice you're really going to actively try to remove GMY or CLS out of your top 80 (as examples of zetas on useful toons that have outlived their usefulness)? And the same point about increasing your top 80 GP brings you into stiffer competition still applies. But agreed, whaling or not, moving under performing toons out of your compared set is one of the first steps towards getting more favorable match-ups (along with previously mentioned counter teams and mods).

    On the second point, matchmaking doesn't occur in a vacuum, so all of these super useful weaker characters that don't get counted won't get counted for your opponents either. There is zero net gain in your roster's comparative effectiveness if your opponent is doing the same thing.

    Matchmaking is always going to favor one roster composition over another. We can argue about fairness or equity all we want and we'll all be right and we'll all be wrong, all at the same time. Where your roster falls within the GP range allowed by your division has a massive impact on the type of match ups you get, etc. etc. There are so many variables and so many different experiences, yet everyone speaks from their single slice of experience as if it is gospel without acknowledging there may be other valid experiences.

    Honestly though, I'm not sure why that many people care all that much, outside of the urge to have one's success in the game mode be meaningful, or to have one's failings in the game mode excused. The reward differential isn't all that big, the rewards themselves are fine but aren't going to kill your roster progression if you don't participate. The game mode, especially 5v5, has become a formulaic check-the-box activity, and GAC History being public has changed the dynamic completely for some players. It's yet another big pile of "meh"

    So your choices of old bad characters are CLS, who counters every meta team right now if you invest in him (I know I said too much gear makes a counter less worth it, but it's easier than trying to kick him out, I said it was a brute force solution not the smart one.), and yoda, a key element of potentially one of the top 5 teams in the game? There are characters people will have worked on that will have fallen out of favour, but I don't know that those are good choices.

    If your opponent is outdoing you in terms of gear, then the characters outside their applicable GP will be less valuable as they will have a faster drop off. So if your opponent is doing the same thing, you don't have a problem with them outranking you.

    Of course matchmaking will always favour one roster, because you can pair any two rosters in the game and one will have some kind of an advantage depending on your perspective. Doesn't mean the gamemode itself is pointless, I do it for fun, unlike presumably some people.
  • Reevs
    6 posts Member
    edited February 13
    Matchmaking is a complete garbage, which ruined this game mode for me. For example, how on earth is this a fair matchup??? Watch the screenshots! My opponents top's vs mine.
    How am I supoosed to win against this??? And I get a lot of matchup with similar odds! No whaling helps on it!! CG!!! Do something with this that fixes matchmaking already!!

    2co4ujg3wrct.jpg
    o1rer5quso8n.jpg



    lx4b9vu5xkre.jpg
    2lh6fkbai7fn.jpg

  • Reevs wrote: »
    Matchmaking is a complete garbage, which ruined this game mode for me. For example, how on earth is this a fair matchup??? Watch the screenshots! My opponents top's vs mine.
    How am I supoosed to win against this??? And I get a lot of matchup with similar odds! No whaling helps on it!! CG!!! Do something with this that fixes matchmaking already!!

    2co4ujg3wrct.jpg
    o1rer5quso8n.jpg



    lx4b9vu5xkre.jpg
    2lh6fkbai7fn.jpg
    I agree and as I say there are many mismatches at either end of the scale of gp but don't post here you'll just get ridiculed.....
  • Reevs wrote: »
    Matchmaking is a complete garbage, which ruined this game mode for me. For example, how on earth is this a fair matchup??? Watch the screenshots! My opponents top's vs mine.
    How am I supoosed to win against this??? And I get a lot of matchup with similar odds! No whaling helps on it!! CG!!! Do something with this that fixes matchmaking already!!

    2co4ujg3wrct.jpg
    o1rer5quso8n.jpg



    lx4b9vu5xkre.jpg
    2lh6fkbai7fn.jpg

    Don't be so negative! Obviously your opponent has more overall GP and way more zetas that you and since they've obviously played longer they probably have better mods too. But if you play smart your extra g13+ could swing the battle in your favour!
  • Reevs wrote: »
    Matchmaking is a complete garbage, which ruined this game mode for me. For example, how on earth is this a fair matchup??? Watch the screenshots! My opponents top's vs mine.
    How am I supoosed to win against this??? And I get a lot of matchup with similar odds! No whaling helps on it!! CG!!! Do something with this that fixes matchmaking already!!

    2co4ujg3wrct.jpg
    o1rer5quso8n.jpg



    lx4b9vu5xkre.jpg
    2lh6fkbai7fn.jpg

    And this is why mm should factor in # of G12 & G13. Only 200k GP difference with rosters like that is a clear indication of the mm issue.

    But I realized that the whole discussion here basically boils down to this:
    - You have one group that views GAC as competition between players of similar strength and the player with the best strategy should win.
    - Then you have a group that views GAC as an expanded arena where the player with the strongest roster and the biggest resource investment should win.

    If you are in group one then it is obvious to you that mm needs to be improved.
    If you are in group two then you thing it’s fair to match weak rosters with strong rosters since the player with the strong roster “deserves to win“.
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    - Then you have a group that views GAC as an expanded arena where the player with the strongest roster and the biggest resource investment should win.

    If you are in group one then it is obvious to you that mm needs to be improved.
    If you are in group two then you thing it’s fair to match weak rosters with strong rosters since the player with the strong roster “deserves to win“.

    This is a complete misscharacterisation of what the people you are disagreeing with are saying. The idea of matching on the basis of GP is that it does match people with approximately equal resource investment (albeit with some anomalies) and when that equal resource investment is made in competitive PvP characters and teams that player should have an advantage in competitive PvP game modes.

    In addition concessions have been made by the majority of people you disagree with that changes like additional leagues would be beneficial so that, for example, a 4 wins out of 9 player doesn't meet a 9 out of 9 player in the last round of 8. It's also been acknowledged by most that there are some potential edge cases in matching on GP particularly around new whale (gear based GP) vs old free to play (zeta based GP) matches, the low GP to power increase ratio for the g12+5 to g13 transition (favouring narrow new whale rosters) and the high GP to power increase ratio for relic levels (favouring broader older rosters). The first of these (league progression) can only be addressed by CG, the second is unlikely to be addressed by CG due to the effort reward ratio for them, but can be addressed by individual players roster management decisions.

    Meanwhile you obstinately insist that the number of G12/G13 characters determines match outcomes ignoring the fact that GP matching has benefits such as accounting for number of zetas and balancing players with many g13s at lower relic levels against players with few g13s at higher relics. You also mostly ignore the point that counter teams in general do not need as high gear as the team they are facing. Most importantly you maintain that the presence of meta characters can present an insurmountable barrier to winning a GAC match going so far as to say at one point a player with both Revans vs a player without either could only have lost by making a mistake. This is a particularly negative attitude in the current state of the game where there is no single team that doesn't have at least 3 independent non-mirror counters. In fact the double revan vs no revan situation is very likely to become a common matchup at lower early game GP over the next year as the most efficient starts at the moment are either Carth/jedi -> double Revan -> Malak or Separatist faction -> Padme+GR. In that matchup I'd chalk up the win to the non-revan player every time as the revan owner will need one on offense vs Geos (if they are too early in the game for traya) while the other one can place either padme or GG on defense and use the spare to take out whichever revan is on defense and use their scrubs and spares to kill the carth team.

    Anyway, it seems CG have moved on from GAC now and are working on other things so if you just want to vent anger at losing a GAC match carry on arguing with people. If you want to improve, post a thread with a link to your roster asking for help planning a defense or planning development of counters. Then look on the bright side... in two months time most whales and competitive f2p are going to have sunk a whole bunch of useless GP into relic phasma and resistance pilot so either you wont have the GP to match with them any more or your roster will probably be more GP efficient than theirs.
  • So your choices of old bad characters are CLS, who counters every meta team right now if you invest in him (I know I said too much gear makes a counter less worth it, but it's easier than trying to kick him out, I said it was a brute force solution not the smart one.), and yoda, a key element of potentially one of the top 5 teams in the game? There are characters people will have worked on that will have fallen out of favour, but I don't know that those are good choices.

    I didn't say old and bad. You said "brute force the dead weight out of your top 80". I offered examples where that's just not feasible. zJyn if for whatever reason someone did that, sure. But the 2k GP stuck on GMY's leadership is just a tax for playing longer than other players. Period. It accounts for 600+GP for the G13 piece and three or four relic levels? GP-wise my 12.5 GMY with his leadership zeta is equivalent to someone else's R3/R4 GMY from an MM perspective. Learn Control is a nice zeta and made a slight difference during the CLS meta, but I'd trade the GP for a Relic'd version of him.
    If your opponent is outdoing you in terms of gear, then the characters outside their applicable GP will be less valuable as they will have a faster drop off. So if your opponent is doing the same thing, you don't have a problem with them outranking you.

    I don't understand this. Those characters are all outside of the applicable GP. There might be a drop off, there might not be. It could be an endless stream of G8 garbage or it could be 20 more G11s or 4 ability 12s that don't count. MM doesn't care about it, which is your whole point. My counterpoint is that the practice, while smart, is orthogonal to making up for "bad GP" inside your top 80, and likely to be practiced by good players.
    Of course matchmaking will always favour one roster, because you can pair any two rosters in the game and one will have some kind of an advantage depending on your perspective. Doesn't mean the gamemode itself is pointless, I do it for fun, unlike presumably some people.

    I don't think the advantage is perspective driven. I think it's just an advantage. A player can choose not to use it, but that's not a perspective. A narrow roster with a "stopper" will beat a broad roster without one in the hands of a competent player. That's not perspective, it's a constraint created by zones.
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    - Then you have a group that views GAC as an expanded arena where the player with the strongest roster and the biggest resource investment should win.

    If you are in group one then it is obvious to you that mm needs to be improved.
    If you are in group two then you thing it’s fair to match weak rosters with strong rosters since the player with the strong roster “deserves to win“.

    This is a complete misscharacterisation of what the people you are disagreeing with are saying. The idea of matching on the basis of GP is that it does match people with approximately equal resource investment (albeit with some anomalies) and when that equal resource investment is made in competitive PvP characters and teams that player should have an advantage in competitive PvP game modes.

    In addition concessions have been made by the majority of people you disagree with that changes like additional leagues would be beneficial so that, for example, a 4 wins out of 9 player doesn't meet a 9 out of 9 player in the last round of 8. It's also been acknowledged by most that there are some potential edge cases in matching on GP particularly around new whale (gear based GP) vs old free to play (zeta based GP) matches, the low GP to power increase ratio for the g12+5 to g13 transition (favouring narrow new whale rosters) and the high GP to power increase ratio for relic levels (favouring broader older rosters). The first of these (league progression) can only be addressed by CG, the second is unlikely to be addressed by CG due to the effort reward ratio for them, but can be addressed by individual players roster management decisions.

    Meanwhile you obstinately insist that the number of G12/G13 characters determines match outcomes ignoring the fact that GP matching has benefits such as accounting for number of zetas and balancing players with many g13s at lower relic levels against players with few g13s at higher relics. You also mostly ignore the point that counter teams in general do not need as high gear as the team they are facing. Most importantly you maintain that the presence of meta characters can present an insurmountable barrier to winning a GAC match going so far as to say at one point a player with both Revans vs a player without either could only have lost by making a mistake. This is a particularly negative attitude in the current state of the game where there is no single team that doesn't have at least 3 independent non-mirror counters. In fact the double revan vs no revan situation is very likely to become a common matchup at lower early game GP over the next year as the most efficient starts at the moment are either Carth/jedi -> double Revan -> Malak or Separatist faction -> Padme+GR. In that matchup I'd chalk up the win to the non-revan player every time as the revan owner will need one on offense vs Geos (if they are too early in the game for traya) while the other one can place either padme or GG on defense and use the spare to take out whichever revan is on defense and use their scrubs and spares to kill the carth team.

    Anyway, it seems CG have moved on from GAC now and are working on other things so if you just want to vent anger at losing a GAC match carry on arguing with people. If you want to improve, post a thread with a link to your roster asking for help planning a defense or planning development of counters. Then look on the bright side... in two months time most whales and competitive f2p are going to have sunk a whole bunch of useless GP into relic phasma and resistance pilot so either you wont have the GP to match with them any more or your roster will probably be more GP efficient than theirs.

    You must have missed two key points I made in my previous points: (I know ... too many posts to follow)
    1) I am not advocating to replace GP mm with Gear # or any other system, but rather use e.g. gear as additional factor for mm.
    2) In the 4mm+ GP level I am playing there are teams that have very few reliable counters (e.g. G7 Malak)

    I agree with the additional leagues idea. In fact I agree with any idea that improves the mm.

    And I don’t think I mischaracterized the strong opponents of improving mm. When I note that e.g. a match between a player with 10 G13 toons and a player with 26 G13 toons is not a good matchup I got the response from people here:
    “No, that’s fine because the player with 26 G13 toons worked harder for this advantage and focused on a better roster development and therefore deserves the advantage and the win.” (I’m paraphrasing this as “whale harder”)

    You probably just want to help, but telling me that CG is focused on other things now and that I should focus on improving my roster and strategy is basically telling me:
    “Suck it up and whale harder” (even though you used much nicer words :-)
  • @KyoO1234

    I understand your logic of wanting to further filter mm. However I don’t think you’ve thought it through completely. If mm first clumps you by gp then by g12/13 numbers then by zetas or any other filtering process, all that will change is a further need to chase the meta.

    By this I mean, it’ll further punish people who’s first five g12s or g13s, or any arbitrary number/gear level you want to throw out, that aren’t the best first five to have. Now you’ve suggested adding meta characters as a filter too, but who determines and how is it determined what is meta? Do you filter first by gp then meta then g12/13 then zetas? Even if you have a way of easily adding all of these filters into the algorithm (my biggest concern) are you going to be happy with the end result?

    To me the end result is more mirror defenses. So it’ll turn gac into the arena in a slightly different format. Sure it might produce closer matches (And I’m not convinced it’ll eliminate or even improve mm) but will it increase enjoyment? Will it shift the focus from look at all of there x heroes how can I compete with that? To look at all of there x speed mods how is that fair when mods have so much luck/overall play time involved in them?

    And while you’ll call this a “whale harder” argument, it does devalue making smart choices in how to apply your resources in a resource management game. Cause honestly, whether you’re ftp or a kraken your argument against the current mm is “I shouldn’t be punished by not using my resources as efficiently as my opponent.”
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    And this is why mm should factor in # of G12 & G13. Only 200k GP difference with rosters like that is a clear indication of the mm issue.

    But I realized that the whole discussion here basically boils down to this:
    - You have one group that views GAC as competition between players of similar strength and the player with the best strategy should win.
    - Then you have a group that views GAC as an expanded arena where the player with the strongest roster and the biggest resource investment should win.

    If you are in group one then it is obvious to you that mm needs to be improved.
    If you are in group two then you thing it’s fair to match weak rosters with strong rosters since the player with the strong roster “deserves to win“.

    200k total GP difference which isn't the matchmaking factor, still.

    I would view myself more in group one than group two, I just have a different idea of roster strength to you. Roster investment shouldn't be completely discounted but I reckon I could take any matchup in the game and lose it, which means strategy must play some factor. You may not think it makes up the difference as obviously people aren't playing to lose, but then I refer you to the OP.

    I've faced rosters with teams that I can guarantee I can't beat, only for the opposition to save that team for offense, or to put it on defense but then not leave themselves enough to attack with, all sorts. Also the cause for that has never been due to G13 etc. they've been incredibly modded teams by people who have put more effort into it than me and rightly benefit. I also refer you to the many complaints about how working on your roster means you face stronger opponents which means biggest resource investment isn't even the defining factor. It's strategy of said investment. There are two or three different areas to strategise, being good in any of them can get you the win, but you want a balance of all of them.
  • I think matchmaking is fine. I was a bit dubious to begin with, but in the end gac is fun and many of my matches are quite close.

    You have to realise that the game mode demands that you make good roster choices.

    If you relic up your tuskens, kudos to you for doing what you want, but this game mode won't reward that choice. That choice will actually make gac worse for you.

    If this is the game mode you love and want to be good at, work with the current matchmaking system. Make meta roster choices and crank up your speed mods;)

  • I didn't say old and bad. You said "brute force the dead weight out of your top 80". I offered examples where that's just not feasible. zJyn if for whatever reason someone did that, sure. But the 2k GP stuck on GMY's leadership is just a tax for playing longer than other players. Period. It accounts for 600+GP for the G13 piece and three or four relic levels? GP-wise my 12.5 GMY with his leadership zeta is equivalent to someone else's R3/R4 GMY from an MM perspective. Learn Control is a nice zeta and made a slight difference during the CLS meta, but I'd trade the GP for a Relic'd version of him.

    I don't understand this. Those characters are all outside of the applicable GP. There might be a drop off, there might not be. It could be an endless stream of G8 garbage or it could be 20 more G11s or 4 ability 12s that don't count. MM doesn't care about it, which is your whole point. My counterpoint is that the practice, while smart, is orthogonal to making up for "bad GP" inside your top 80, and likely to be practiced by good players.

    I don't think the advantage is perspective driven. I think it's just an advantage. A player can choose not to use it, but that's not a perspective. A narrow roster with a "stopper" will beat a broad roster without one in the hands of a competent player. That's not perspective, it's a constraint created by zones.

    GMY's leadership was made redundant within a month of his rework, it's not a tax of playing longer, it's a consequence of rush-applying a mediocre zeta that was alright, but not incredible. Also one zeta doesn't make a character dead weight, trying to get GMY out of the top 80 likely involves putting characters objectively worse than he is there instead. The characters you want gone are the old and bad ones, I certainly have a few that I like to watch slowly fall down my roster with time.

    If two rosters have similar applicable GP, the one stronger at the top must be weaker at the bottom for the same average, and the characters below them must be weaker still. Ergo, if you complain about being weaker in the top half of your applicable GP, you must be stronger in the bottom half and therefore likely after that, unless you randomly have a drop off in gear after exactly after your applicables, in which case you're probably the roster people don't like.

    Who has the advantage is perspective, the screenshots above show someone with a few key relics and a lot of good G12s complaining about someone with a lot of bad relics at a low enough GP that after that first half of counted value it will presumably drop off big time. They're in a tight spot, certainly, but the relics themselves aren't the biggest problem there I'd say. I believe it was Saada who complained about essentially being the top picture because weaker rosters had smarter investments than them, just it took them longer to say, though I could have misunderstood him. I more often than not look at a roster with more gear than mine and can say I'll win because more gear doesn't give you the win, as I said in my previous post. So yeah, if there's is a team the opposition can't beat, it helps, but it guarantees nothing. Nor does that mean the fault lies with matchmaking, nothing has been released so recently that people can't yet have a counter for it, can't blame matchmaking for your wrong decisions.

  • I didn't say old and bad. You said "brute force the dead weight out of your top 80". I offered examples where that's just not feasible. zJyn if for whatever reason someone did that, sure. But the 2k GP stuck on GMY's leadership is just a tax for playing longer than other players. Period. It accounts for 600+GP for the G13 piece and three or four relic levels? GP-wise my 12.5 GMY with his leadership zeta is equivalent to someone else's R3/R4 GMY from an MM perspective. Learn Control is a nice zeta and made a slight difference during the CLS meta, but I'd trade the GP for a Relic'd version of him.

    I don't understand this. Those characters are all outside of the applicable GP. There might be a drop off, there might not be. It could be an endless stream of G8 garbage or it could be 20 more G11s or 4 ability 12s that don't count. MM doesn't care about it, which is your whole point. My counterpoint is that the practice, while smart, is orthogonal to making up for "bad GP" inside your top 80, and likely to be practiced by good players.

    I don't think the advantage is perspective driven. I think it's just an advantage. A player can choose not to use it, but that's not a perspective. A narrow roster with a "stopper" will beat a broad roster without one in the hands of a competent player. That's not perspective, it's a constraint created by zones.

    GMY's leadership was made redundant within a month of his rework, it's not a tax of playing longer, it's a consequence of rush-applying a mediocre zeta that was alright, but not incredible. Also one zeta doesn't make a character dead weight, trying to get GMY out of the top 80 likely involves putting characters objectively worse than he is there instead. The characters you want gone are the old and bad ones, I certainly have a few that I like to watch slowly fall down my roster with time.

    If two rosters have similar applicable GP, the one stronger at the top must be weaker at the bottom for the same average, and the characters below them must be weaker still. Ergo, if you complain about being weaker in the top half of your applicable GP, you must be stronger in the bottom half and therefore likely after that, unless you randomly have a drop off in gear after exactly after your applicables, in which case you're probably the roster people don't like.

    Who has the advantage is perspective, the screenshots above show someone with a few key relics and a lot of good G12s complaining about someone with a lot of bad relics at a low enough GP that after that first half of counted value it will presumably drop off big time. They're in a tight spot, certainly, but the relics themselves aren't the biggest problem there I'd say. I believe it was Saada who complained about essentially being the top picture because weaker rosters had smarter investments than them, just it took them longer to say, though I could have misunderstood him. I more often than not look at a roster with more gear than mine and can say I'll win because more gear doesn't give you the win, as I said in my previous post. So yeah, if there's is a team the opposition can't beat, it helps, but it guarantees nothing. Nor does that mean the fault lies with matchmaking, nothing has been released so recently that people can't yet have a counter for it, can't blame matchmaking for your wrong decisions.

    I didn't say that nor am I the one with a strong roster with my opponents being "weak" with smarter investments. I can't be bothered getting into it again....
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    - Then you have a group that views GAC as an expanded arena where the player with the strongest roster and the biggest resource investment should win.

    If you are in group one then it is obvious to you that mm needs to be improved.
    If you are in group two then you thing it’s fair to match weak rosters with strong rosters since the player with the strong roster “deserves to win“.

    This is a complete misscharacterisation of what the people you are disagreeing with are saying. The idea of matching on the basis of GP is that it does match people with approximately equal resource investment (albeit with some anomalies) and when that equal resource investment is made in competitive PvP characters and teams that player should have an advantage in competitive PvP game modes.

    In addition concessions have been made by the majority of people you disagree with that changes like additional leagues would be beneficial so that, for example, a 4 wins out of 9 player doesn't meet a 9 out of 9 player in the last round of 8. It's also been acknowledged by most that there are some potential edge cases in matching on GP particularly around new whale (gear based GP) vs old free to play (zeta based GP) matches, the low GP to power increase ratio for the g12+5 to g13 transition (favouring narrow new whale rosters) and the high GP to power increase ratio for relic levels (favouring broader older rosters). The first of these (league progression) can only be addressed by CG, the second is unlikely to be addressed by CG due to the effort reward ratio for them, but can be addressed by individual players roster management decisions.

    Meanwhile you obstinately insist that the number of G12/G13 characters determines match outcomes ignoring the fact that GP matching has benefits such as accounting for number of zetas and balancing players with many g13s at lower relic levels against players with few g13s at higher relics. You also mostly ignore the point that counter teams in general do not need as high gear as the team they are facing. Most importantly you maintain that the presence of meta characters can present an insurmountable barrier to winning a GAC match going so far as to say at one point a player with both Revans vs a player without either could only have lost by making a mistake. This is a particularly negative attitude in the current state of the game where there is no single team that doesn't have at least 3 independent non-mirror counters. In fact the double revan vs no revan situation is very likely to become a common matchup at lower early game GP over the next year as the most efficient starts at the moment are either Carth/jedi -> double Revan -> Malak or Separatist faction -> Padme+GR. In that matchup I'd chalk up the win to the non-revan player every time as the revan owner will need one on offense vs Geos (if they are too early in the game for traya) while the other one can place either padme or GG on defense and use the spare to take out whichever revan is on defense and use their scrubs and spares to kill the carth team.

    Anyway, it seems CG have moved on from GAC now and are working on other things so if you just want to vent anger at losing a GAC match carry on arguing with people. If you want to improve, post a thread with a link to your roster asking for help planning a defense or planning development of counters. Then look on the bright side... in two months time most whales and competitive f2p are going to have sunk a whole bunch of useless GP into relic phasma and resistance pilot so either you wont have the GP to match with them any more or your roster will probably be more GP efficient than theirs.

    Brilliant post, imho.
  • Saada wrote: »
    I didn't say that nor am I the one with a strong roster with my opponents being "weak" with smarter investments. I can't be bothered getting into it again....

    In which case I presumably did misunderstand, apologies.
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    You probably just want to help, but telling me that CG is focused on other things now and that I should focus on improving my roster and strategy is basically telling me:
    “Suck it up and whale harder” (even though you used much nicer words :-)

    No, that certainly wasn't my intent because in my opinion just saying "whale harder" is actually going to give you more difficult matches because opponents with excellent mods, well developed meta teams, good strategy and knowledge of counter teams go hand in hand with higher GP (in general although certainly not exclusively). My point was addressing comments like this:
    2) In the 4mm+ GP level I am playing there are teams that have very few reliable counters (e.g. G7 Malak)

    which are patently untrue.

    If someone is over 4mil GP and doesn't have a counter to Malak it is fair (although unsympathetic) for people to hold the opinion they don't deserve to win a single GAC match up ever.

    More constructively, and hopefully not patronizing, consider the well known counters to full g13 sith empire with Relic level 7 Malak in order of lowest to highest gear investment:
    1) Shaak Ti lead, Rex, 5s, Echo, Jedi Ani -- Jedi Ani needs relic 7 and modded well. 3 clones need about g11 or g12 and one or two omega abilities. Shaak needs about g8 and level 7 leader ability and omega on basic. Rex needs enough speed to go first (I.e. very little at all given leadership and unique). Shaak Ti needs to be 1 speed less than the result of the following (Rex Speed*1.12+35)*0.7

    2) GG Nuke team -- so well documented both here on the forums and in other online text and video guides I'm not going into it. Suffice to say, g13 R7 GG, g12 T3M4, ~g9+ BB8/IG88/B1/Other applicable variants. Unlike the ShaakTi Nuke you'll want some of the zetas to get this team running.

    3) Jedi variants -- There's a lot and this format doesn't allow me to expand on them. JKR lead can work with GK/Hoda/Jolee/R7 JKA or Bastila lead can work too if your full jedi team is g13. The most gear efficient would be JKR lead/Jolee or bastila/Hoda/GMY/Thrawn (mark DR to increase cooldowns, spread assist calls around the team, fracture on DR, GMY basic on DR until just above 50% health, 1 Shoot DR with GMY special). Needs R4 or R5 on GMY but can get away probably with mostly g12 elsewhere.

    4) Padme Lead GR -- Increased gear requirements as you'll likely need R7 JKA and >R4 GK, c3p0 at g12 and maybe g13 on padme and the 5th which can be ahsoka, R2, shaak ti etc. Just need to get the turn order right, lots of 6 dot health mods for the team and enough offense on JKA

    5) CLS -- Note this team needs great mods and a bit of getting used to the strategy. CLS, Han, Chewi, 3P0, Thrawn. High relic levels on Han required, Chewi preferable, others useful at g13 but not required. Use highest tenacity character (often HK) to gain TM early, focus bastila, fracture malak, kill HK/DR/Marauder then malak.

    6) Mirror match -- worth mentioning that the mirror match (although unavailable to you I guess) is incredibly GP efficient requiring much lower relic levels to win reliably as it's a speed based match (use fast GMY if out sped)

    7) GAS.... obviously

    8) really random stuff like qira/nest/wat/L3/Vandor and even the veteran smugglers (seriously) if you are crazy enough to have them high relic (see clash's youtube channel for more ridiculousness of this sort) and a lot of other teams when geared and modded high enough including resistance under JTR and First Order (both without the new characters when there's a gear and mod advantage but certainly with the new characters that have been in shipments for a while now).

    The first 3 or 4 of these have been easily obtainable f2p over the course of the 10 months since his release even with low crystal income from both arenas. The 4th, 5th and 6th should be primary focus of anyone looking for a counter to GAS which they also deal with after slight modifications. The 8th is just thrown in to dispel the argument that you can't succeed if you work on factions you love instead of the meta.

    There are caveats and qualifications with all of them including specific mod requirements, lots of practice in arena and of course many will leave you with a lone Malak to deal with occasionally (so save a cleanup squad e.g. most people use FO). But all of the first 6 are GP efficient for GAC in that they contribute less to top 80 GP than they are able to dispatch. This solves both the problem of having to beat a high impact meta character as well as addressing the balance in number of g13s because a player with relic 7 Malak is very likely to have 4 other G13 sith empire characters all on one team which can be beaten by 1 or 2 g13 characters.

    Some have their pluses and minuses and some are more banner efficient than others, but for example using GG Nuke is banner inefficient on offense but lets you put the rest of your sep droids (B1/B2/Magna/DDK) under nute lead which is a big improvement for your nute team defense and frees jango up for a BH team.

    TL;DR - Don't "Whale Harder" - Use your freely acquired or paid for resources on researched PvP relevant teams in the most efficient way you can manage, as an when required, if you specifically want to do well in PvP; or use them elsewhere but don't expect to do well in PvP.
  • KyoO1234
    270 posts Member
    edited February 14
    KyoO1234 wrote: »
    You probably just want to help, but telling me that CG is focused on other things now and that I should focus on improving my roster and strategy is basically telling me:
    “Suck it up and whale harder” (even though you used much nicer words :-)

    No, that certainly wasn't my intent because in my opinion just saying "whale harder" is actually going to give you more difficult matches because opponents with excellent mods, well developed meta teams, good strategy and knowledge of counter teams go hand in hand with higher GP (in general although certainly not exclusively). My point was addressing comments like this:
    2) In the 4mm+ GP level I am playing there are teams that have very few reliable counters (e.g. G7 Malak)

    which are patently untrue.

    If someone is over 4mil GP and doesn't have a counter to Malak it is fair (although unsympathetic) for people to hold the opinion they don't deserve to win a single GAC match up ever.

    More constructively, and hopefully not patronizing, consider the well known counters to full g13 sith empire with Relic level 7 Malak in order of lowest to highest gear investment:
    1) Shaak Ti lead, Rex, 5s, Echo, Jedi Ani -- Jedi Ani needs relic 7 and modded well. 3 clones need about g11 or g12 and one or two omega abilities. Shaak needs about g8 and level 7 leader ability and omega on basic. Rex needs enough speed to go first (I.e. very little at all given leadership and unique). Shaak Ti needs to be 1 speed less than the result of the following (Rex Speed*1.12+35)*0.7

    2) GG Nuke team -- so well documented both here on the forums and in other online text and video guides I'm not going into it. Suffice to say, g13 R7 GG, g12 T3M4, ~g9+ BB8/IG88/B1/Other applicable variants. Unlike the ShaakTi Nuke you'll want some of the zetas to get this team running.

    3) Jedi variants -- There's a lot and this format doesn't allow me to expand on them. JKR lead can work with GK/Hoda/Jolee/R7 JKA or Bastila lead can work too if your full jedi team is g13. The most gear efficient would be JKR lead/Jolee or bastila/Hoda/GMY/Thrawn (mark DR to increase cooldowns, spread assist calls around the team, fracture on DR, GMY basic on DR until just above 50% health, 1 Shoot DR with GMY special). Needs R4 or R5 on GMY but can get away probably with mostly g12 elsewhere.

    4) Padme Lead GR -- Increased gear requirements as you'll likely need R7 JKA and >R4 GK, c3p0 at g12 and maybe g13 on padme and the 5th which can be ahsoka, R2, shaak ti etc. Just need to get the turn order right, lots of 6 dot health mods for the team and enough offense on JKA

    5) CLS -- Note this team needs great mods and a bit of getting used to the strategy. CLS, Han, Chewi, 3P0, Thrawn. High relic levels on Han required, Chewi preferable, others useful at g13 but not required. Use highest tenacity character (often HK) to gain TM early, focus bastila, fracture malak, kill HK/DR/Marauder then malak.

    6) Mirror match -- worth mentioning that the mirror match (although unavailable to you I guess) is incredibly GP efficient requiring much lower relic levels to win reliably as it's a speed based match (use fast GMY if out sped)

    7) GAS.... obviously

    8) really random stuff like qira/nest/wat/L3/Vandor and even the veteran smugglers (seriously) if you are crazy enough to have them high relic (see clash's youtube channel for more ridiculousness of this sort) and a lot of other teams when geared and modded high enough including resistance under JTR and First Order (both without the new characters when there's a gear and mod advantage but certainly with the new characters that have been in shipments for a while now).

    The first 3 or 4 of these have been easily obtainable f2p over the course of the 10 months since his release even with low crystal income from both arenas. The 4th, 5th and 6th should be primary focus of anyone looking for a counter to GAS which they also deal with after slight modifications. The 8th is just thrown in to dispel the argument that you can't succeed if you work on factions you love instead of the meta.

    There are caveats and qualifications with all of them including specific mod requirements, lots of practice in arena and of course many will leave you with a lone Malak to deal with occasionally (so save a cleanup squad e.g. most people use FO). But all of the first 6 are GP efficient for GAC in that they contribute less to top 80 GP than they are able to dispatch. This solves both the problem of having to beat a high impact meta character as well as addressing the balance in number of g13s because a player with relic 7 Malak is very likely to have 4 other G13 sith empire characters all on one team which can be beaten by 1 or 2 g13 characters.

    Some have their pluses and minuses and some are more banner efficient than others, but for example using GG Nuke is banner inefficient on offense but lets you put the rest of your sep droids (B1/B2/Magna/DDK) under nute lead which is a big improvement for your nute team defense and frees jango up for a BH team.

    TL;DR - Don't "Whale Harder" - Use your freely acquired or paid for resources on researched PvP relevant teams in the most efficient way you can manage, as an when required, if you specifically want to do well in PvP; or use them elsewhere but don't expect to do well in PvP.

    You got me interested until I got to your 4) Padme counter. I do have a well modded all G13 R7 Padme Team (except 3P0 at R4) and I have to be lucky to win against an R5 Malak.

    That makes me think that you are certainly well informed and apparently spend a lot of time on researching SWGOH strategy, but theory apparently differs from practice.

    I also have a GG R5 nuke team which worked while there’re were still a lot of 6 star Malaks around. But now it’s a different story. I don’t see any nuke teams in arena anymore which leads me to believe that even a R7 GG doesn’t cut it anymore.

    BTW: I am farming Shaak Ti and have my clones geared up, but as a player who has 3+ years of toons in his roster there is a lot of dead weight. Also there are only so many things you can focus on if you are ftp.

    Bottom line for me remains that the current mm purely based on GP creates matchups between lean meta focused players and newbies (not good) as well as between veteran players with average rosters and newer players with high gear meta focus (not good either).

    Easy fix would be to look at #G12 and G13 toons to match similar players in addition to GP.
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Nikoms565 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    I've never seen a single person claim matchmaking is perfect.

    Cool. Then everyone agrees that it needs improvement? Ok.

    There is no such thing as "perfect" matchmaking.

    It's fine.

    It’s fine FOR YOU. And you write that people’s ideas for mm improvement boil down to “let me win”. Looks like somebody is projecting...

    It seems to be his lot in life
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    KyoO1234 wrote: »
    You probably just want to help, but telling me that CG is focused on other things now and that I should focus on improving my roster and strategy is basically telling me:
    “Suck it up and whale harder” (even though you used much nicer words :-)

    No, that certainly wasn't my intent because in my opinion just saying "whale harder" is actually going to give you more difficult matches because opponents with excellent mods, well developed meta teams, good strategy and knowledge of counter teams go hand in hand with higher GP (in general although certainly not exclusively). My point was addressing comments like this:
    2) In the 4mm+ GP level I am playing there are teams that have very few reliable counters (e.g. G7 Malak)

    which are patently untrue.

    If someone is over 4mil GP and doesn't have a counter to Malak it is fair (although unsympathetic) for people to hold the opinion they don't deserve to win a single GAC match up ever.

    More constructively, and hopefully not patronizing, consider the well known counters to full g13 sith empire with Relic level 7 Malak in order of lowest to highest gear investment:
    1) Shaak Ti lead, Rex, 5s, Echo, Jedi Ani -- Jedi Ani needs relic 7 and modded well. 3 clones need about g11 or g12 and one or two omega abilities. Shaak needs about g8 and level 7 leader ability and omega on basic. Rex needs enough speed to go first (I.e. very little at all given leadership and unique). Shaak Ti needs to be 1 speed less than the result of the following (Rex Speed*1.12+35)*0.7

    2) GG Nuke team -- so well documented both here on the forums and in other online text and video guides I'm not going into it. Suffice to say, g13 R7 GG, g12 T3M4, ~g9+ BB8/IG88/B1/Other applicable variants. Unlike the ShaakTi Nuke you'll want some of the zetas to get this team running.

    3) Jedi variants -- There's a lot and this format doesn't allow me to expand on them. JKR lead can work with GK/Hoda/Jolee/R7 JKA or Bastila lead can work too if your full jedi team is g13. The most gear efficient would be JKR lead/Jolee or bastila/Hoda/GMY/Thrawn (mark DR to increase cooldowns, spread assist calls around the team, fracture on DR, GMY basic on DR until just above 50% health, 1 Shoot DR with GMY special). Needs R4 or R5 on GMY but can get away probably with mostly g12 elsewhere.

    4) Padme Lead GR -- Increased gear requirements as you'll likely need R7 JKA and >R4 GK, c3p0 at g12 and maybe g13 on padme and the 5th which can be ahsoka, R2, shaak ti etc. Just need to get the turn order right, lots of 6 dot health mods for the team and enough offense on JKA

    5) CLS -- Note this team needs great mods and a bit of getting used to the strategy. CLS, Han, Chewi, 3P0, Thrawn. High relic levels on Han required, Chewi preferable, others useful at g13 but not required. Use highest tenacity character (often HK) to gain TM early, focus bastila, fracture malak, kill HK/DR/Marauder then malak.

    6) Mirror match -- worth mentioning that the mirror match (although unavailable to you I guess) is incredibly GP efficient requiring much lower relic levels to win reliably as it's a speed based match (use fast GMY if out sped)

    7) GAS.... obviously

    8) really random stuff like qira/nest/wat/L3/Vandor and even the veteran smugglers (seriously) if you are crazy enough to have them high relic (see clash's youtube channel for more ridiculousness of this sort) and a lot of other teams when geared and modded high enough including resistance under JTR and First Order (both without the new characters when there's a gear and mod advantage but certainly with the new characters that have been in shipments for a while now).

    The first 3 or 4 of these have been easily obtainable f2p over the course of the 10 months since his release even with low crystal income from both arenas. The 4th, 5th and 6th should be primary focus of anyone looking for a counter to GAS which they also deal with after slight modifications. The 8th is just thrown in to dispel the argument that you can't succeed if you work on factions you love instead of the meta.

    There are caveats and qualifications with all of them including specific mod requirements, lots of practice in arena and of course many will leave you with a lone Malak to deal with occasionally (so save a cleanup squad e.g. most people use FO). But all of the first 6 are GP efficient for GAC in that they contribute less to top 80 GP than they are able to dispatch. This solves both the problem of having to beat a high impact meta character as well as addressing the balance in number of g13s because a player with relic 7 Malak is very likely to have 4 other G13 sith empire characters all on one team which can be beaten by 1 or 2 g13 characters.

    Some have their pluses and minuses and some are more banner efficient than others, but for example using GG Nuke is banner inefficient on offense but lets you put the rest of your sep droids (B1/B2/Magna/DDK) under nute lead which is a big improvement for your nute team defense and frees jango up for a BH team.

    TL;DR - Don't "Whale Harder" - Use your freely acquired or paid for resources on researched PvP relevant teams in the most efficient way you can manage, as an when required, if you specifically want to do well in PvP; or use them elsewhere but don't expect to do well in PvP.

    You got me interested until I got to your 4) Padme counter. I do have a well modded all G13 R7 Padme Team (except 3P0 at R4) and I have to be lucky to win against an R5 Malak.

    That makes me think that you are certainly well informed and apparently spend a lot of time on researching SWGOH strategy, but theory apparently differs from practice.

    I also have a GG R5 nuke team which worked while there’re were still a lot of 6 star Malaks around. But now it’s a different story. I don’t see any nuke teams in arena anymore which leads me to believe that even a R7 GG doesn’t cut it anymore.

    BTW: I am farming Shaak Ti and have my clones geared up, but as a player who has 3+ years of toons in his roster there is a lot of dead weight. Also there are only so many things you can focus on if you are ftp.

    Bottom line for me remains that the current mm purely based on GP creates matchups between lean meta focused players and newbies (not good) as well as between veteran players with average rosters and newer players with high gear meta focus (not good either).

    Easy fix would be to look at #G12 and G13 toons to match similar players in addition to GP.

    If you are stuggling to beat Malak with an almost all R7 Padme team, they are not well modded.
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out the Underworld Alliance on Discord:https://discord.gg/wvrYb4Q
  • KyoO1234 wrote: »
    I also have a GG R5 nuke team which worked while there’re were still a lot of 6 star Malaks around. But now it’s a different story. I don’t see any nuke teams in arena anymore which leads me to believe that even a R7 GG doesn’t cut it anymore.
    What happened to "your experiences aren't those of the rest of the game"? Here you say your lack of experience means something is irrelevant, that seems even less generalisable. Also G12/G13 characters in matchmaking wouldn't necessarily solve the dead weight issue, it would just shift it.
Sign In or Register to comment.