What Felt Wrong with Ep9 Rise of Skywalker [SPOILERS AHEAD]

Replies

  • Anakin never balanced the Force. Why can’t people see that?

    Anakin betraying the Jedi was not just due to him wanting to save Padme.

    He was a slave who the Jedi wanted to use for their personal gain
    The Jedi never freed his mom from slavery and it ended up costing her life
    The Jedi denied his training at first stating numerous reasons
    The Jedi deny him the title of Master but put him on the counsel
    They go against their code and ask him to spy on Palpatine
    Mace goes against the code and try’s to kill Palpatine
    Jedi kick Ashoka out
    On and on we can go.

    Anakin, like Luke, learned of how crooked the Jedi really are. They are “peace keepers” who pass out laser swords. Ironic isn’t it?
  • Boo wrote: »
    Where to begin?

    I feel the entire trilogy was a let down and TROS was just the final piece.

    TLJ was the part that really derailed the ST beyond redemption.

    JJ tried to make it better but it just failed, people can say they like it if they want. It was entertaining I'm not gonna lie, but entertaining doesn't mean it was a good movie - it just failed the franchise, the whole ST failed.

    Issues I had were:

    1. Palpatine's return undermined Anakin/Vader's prophecy and story arc of the entire saga before (E1-6). Anakin was prophesized to destroy the Sith and Bring Balance - this is why JJ was so careful initially to Introduce Snoke and Kylo as villains in TFA - they were not Sith. Therefore Anakin did not destroy Sidious, he merely just defeated him and therefore did not bring balance, merely postponed the imbalance.

    Anakin says to Rey "Bring balance as I did" - so what a 1000 year prophecy of a chosen one to bring balance to the force, where according to TROS the galaxy needs rebalancing every other generation it seems - it was pathetic.

    Sadly Johnson was too lazy or was too cowardly to write a compelling villain out of Snoke and instead killed him off as nobody. This left a gaping hole in the third act (TROS) without a compelling villain to overcome and Kylo was never going to be the one, having already been bested by Rey countless times.

    JJ or I also understand it that Kennedy decided to bring back Palpatine to carry the ST forward as the main protagonist who just popped up out of nowhere from the dead. Palpatine was clear in stating that "To cheat death is a power that only one has achieved, but if we work together, I am sure we can discover the secret." Palpatine had no clue how to resurrect from the dead or heal.

    The other was Plagueis. If they brought back Palpatine without explanation then they could just as ewasily brought back Snoke - especially if he were Plagueis.

    Indeed Anakin fell to the dark side in order to heal and save Padme from death - now everyone in TROS can heal at will. I do like how the darkside version steals life essence in a selfish way to heal, where the light has you give your essence to the point of your own death to save another, selflessly. But should this power have been used at all since it undermines Anakin's fall from grace so much so?

    Additionally Palpatine's demise - Rey just turned his lightening back at him - didn't Mace Windu already do that??? Pretty weak writing there to.

    These are my main points surrounding why I didn't like TROS, but some of my minor points are as follows:

    2. Lightspeed skipping - "you could crash into a star or supernova and that'd end your trip real quick" Lightspeed routes are carefully charted to avoid dangerous collisions. The idea a pilot can lightspeed skip all over the galaxy at will without death is absurd.

    The TIE fighters are already explained to be "short-range" fighters, incapable of lightspeed. Ok lets play along and say technology has moved ahead and they now do have lightspeed capability - how would the TIE pilots be able to lightspeed skip, pulling out of lightspeed at the exact moment and locations where Poe was randomly jumping to? This whole sequence was poorly thought out just to throw in for entertainment "wow" factor and nothing more - brainless entertainment at best.

    3. C3-PO was a droid built by a slave from scrap parts from a junk dealers shop on Tatooine by a small child - yet said child knows to follow Galactic legislation (even though the Republic did not "exist" in the outer rim territories). Legislation of a required program preventing protocol droids from deciphering a certain language.
    Lets not forget that certain language was Sith - according to Ki-Adi Mundi in TPM: "The Sith have been extinct for a millennia" - so we have legislation being inforced out of jursisdiction, preventing a droid from deciphering an old language from over 1000 years ago. Thart is all just mental.

    Also this "plot" adds no risk. As 3PO doesn't lose his memory as R2 just has a back up and updates him later - woohoo, lol. Pathetic.

    4. Ben's fall to the Darkside in following Vader, his redemption by Leia killing herself and he has a guilty conversation with a memory of his murdered dad - Why wouldn't Anakin have ever visited his grandson and say "Ben I don't know who you think you are talking to looking at my old helmet but it aint me, I was redeemed and the darkside is bad Mmmkay" - would have saved a lot of bother wouldn't it?


    To be honest I could literally go on and on and on and on - this was a terrible movie in a terrible trilogy that didn't need to exist - Rey is not in any better of a position as Luke was at the end of ROTJ - so what was the point of this trilogy??

    I just pretend the whole thing doesn't exist, its Legend, just like the old EU.



    So many great points there. As for the bloody C3PO taking a last good look at his so-called friends who treat him like space garbage (Anakin was much nicer to him btw) -> was just a stupid scene vaguely inserted to attract more viewers in the trailer. If everyone was a bit nicer to 3PO and if he actually did lose his memory, this whole thing would make a lot more sense and make some emotional to a certain degree.

    About the TIE's and bloody Poe jumping again and again and again with an invincibility shield -> lol well said on that. Such a stupid an unnecessary scene.

    I think this movie generation is paying too much attention to the whole "strong, overpowered and independent female characters". Look at how they overdid Captain Marvel, Valkyrie etc. If the movies at least paid a lot of attention and time to actually properly training Rey, her character development would be a lot better as well. (Not just training alone in the forest for 5 minutes).
  • Here we go again lol.
    Boo wrote: »
    Where to begin?

    1. Palpatine's return undermined Anakin/Vader's prophecy and story arc of the entire saga before (E1-6). Anakin was prophesized to destroy the Sith and Bring Balance - this is why JJ was so careful initially to Introduce Snoke and Kylo as villains in TFA - they were not Sith. Therefore Anakin did not destroy Sidious, he merely just defeated him and therefore did not bring balance, merely postponed the imbalance.

    No, and we've talked about this too. Prophecy states Chosen One would bring balance. Doesn't say anything about destroying the Sith.
    AntiFunn wrote: »

    - For the entire duration of the film, I was excited and wondered when Anakin Skywalker would come to the screen. Possible points were when Luke arrived as a force ghost, Leia projected Han's image to talk to Kylo through the force and when both Rey and Kylo were seemingly overwhelmed by Palpatine. I even though he would appear by Rey's side and assist her when I started to hear Anakin's voice. Didn't happen.

    - Rey's unbelievably good force/healing abillities. - If we remember Episode 3, Vader betrays the Jedi solely due to the fact that he wants to revive/heal Padme if she dies (duh). I swear if this was possible, Yoda who had lived 900 years would have definitely learned to revive/heal (not superhero Rey). Besides, the way that the force abillity worked, it definitely wouldn't be forbidden to the Jedi code. (Nothing sinister or morally wrong about it). -> Does not make ANY sense.

    I was hoping for an Anakin cameo as well. However, the fact that he is the one who guides her the most when she hears the voices is satisfying.

    As for her healing, what do you think of The Mandolorian? If a child strong in the force can do it, I would assume it's fine for Rey to be able to. What she does has sort of been done before anyways. Mortis Arc of the Clone Wars.

    Now that you brought it up, the Mortis Daughter IS THE VERY EMBODIMENT OF THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE brother. Even she couldn't do it as casually as Rey did. She had to sacrifice and transfer her own life essense to save Ahsoka. I honestly haven't seen the Mandalorian yet, but then again it probably undermined previous aspects of Force abillity limits as well.

    Dude, it IS said that Anakin would DESTROY the SITH and bring balance to the Force. As Obi-Wan shouts in pain "You were the Chosen One, it is said that you would DESTROY the Sith, NOT JOIN them!" Heck, if you also believe bringing balance is not destroying the evil and restoring order, then what VADER actually did (evening the number of living Jedi and Sith) would have been that.

  • Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin never balanced the Force. Why can’t people see that?

    Anakin betraying the Jedi was not just due to him wanting to save Padme.

    He was a slave who the Jedi wanted to use for their personal gain
    The Jedi never freed his mom from slavery and it ended up costing her life
    The Jedi denied his training at first stating numerous reasons
    The Jedi deny him the title of Master but put him on the counsel
    They go against their code and ask him to spy on Palpatine
    Mace goes against the code and try’s to kill Palpatine
    Jedi kick Ashoka out
    On and on we can go.

    Anakin, like Luke, learned of how crooked the Jedi really are. They are “peace keepers” who pass out laser swords. Ironic isn’t it?

    True.
    Anakin's creation itself is a battle between good and evil. As Plaguies tried to create a perfect embodiment of the Dark Side, the Force counteracted and created the Chosen One instead. However, this was not a guarantee that Anakin would be good and side with the Jedi because (as you explained) the Jedi themselves did not acknowledge this and made some bizarre and horrible decisions that lost Anakin's faith in them. If Shmi's death was prevented and if the Jedi were less arrogant and more supportive, Anakin would have stood as the shining star and the poster boy of the Jedi and the Republic until his timely death, surrounded by Luke, Leia and Padme if she aged more than him.
  • LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.

    Balance, is described in SW as a state where things are fair and peaceful. It is not explaining 2=2.
    If you think the Empire/Sith regime is what you call a balanced life, it would be the same as living in a **** German occupied world where you couldn't do anything about it.
  • AntiFunn wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.

    Balance, is described in SW as a state where things are fair and peaceful. It is not explaining 2=2.
    If you think the Empire/Sith regime is what you call a balanced life, it would be the same as living in a **** German occupied world where you couldn't do anything about it.

    Thats what the "good" guys tell you. Its a jedi prophecy, so of course it has their cult winning in the end. To truly balance the force there would be neither jedi or sith. Not only jedi or only sith.
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  • Since Rey and Ben both had light and dark in them, I was wanting them to join together and form a school that taught all of the Force. Then true balance would be back.
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin never balanced the Force. Why can’t people see that?

    Anakin betraying the Jedi was not just due to him wanting to save Padme.

    He was a slave who the Jedi wanted to use for their personal gain
    The Jedi never freed his mom from slavery and it ended up costing her life
    The Jedi denied his training at first stating numerous reasons
    The Jedi deny him the title of Master but put him on the counsel
    They go against their code and ask him to spy on Palpatine
    Mace goes against the code and try’s to kill Palpatine
    Jedi kick Ashoka out
    On and on we can go.

    Anakin, like Luke, learned of how crooked the Jedi really are. They are “peace keepers” who pass out laser swords. Ironic isn’t it?

    Of course Anakin balanced the force. Part of the force being balanced was to wipe out the corruption that had manifested itself within the teachings of the Jedi. The Jedi's destruction was part of the prophecy - that is what Yoda meant when he suggested the prophecy was misread. Their arrogance only saw the destruction of the Sith, not themselves.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.
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  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.

    The balance wasn't about the ratio between Jedi and Sith. The balance was about the use of the force. The warped corruption of the force by the Sith and the corrupted arrogance teachings of the Jedi.

    The power of the darkside had grown to diminish the use of the force in the galaxy - the Jedi mention this clearly in the PT.

    On the light side, they had become arrogant and corrupt:
    * serving a corrupt senate and not the people of the Republic
    * Arrogance was a flaw more and more common among jedi, including how the prophecy was misread.
    * Mace was to kill Palpatine out of fear
    * Breaking the Jedi code to have Anakin on the counsel, not as a master and having him spy on the Chancellor,
    * No emotion there is peace - no love or attachment.

    Yoda said to Luke to pass on to others what he had learned (not what he was taught). Luke learned that his sith lord Father could be loved and saved rather than destroyed and that Vader's love and attachment for his son was what turned him from the darkside and allowed him to destroy the sith.

    Luke was to rebuild the Jedi, without the corruption and that emotion was an essential part of life, not to be feared but controlled (another reason why he threw his saber away when facing Palpatine, not killing his father, and why Luke's portrayal in TLJ re: Kylo's creation was out of character).

  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.

    Balance, is described in SW as a state where things are fair and peaceful. It is not explaining 2=2.
    If you think the Empire/Sith regime is what you call a balanced life, it would be the same as living in a **** German occupied world where you couldn't do anything about it.

    Thats what the "good" guys tell you. Its a jedi prophecy, so of course it has their cult winning in the end. To truly balance the force there would be neither jedi or sith. Not only jedi or only sith.

    Incorrect. There would be fair use of the force as it was naturally intended - not the corruption of the darkside, nor the dogmatic view of the arrogant Jedi. A new breed of force users attune to the force, fair and just.

    Otherwise with Rey - the force is still out of balance at the end of TROS.
  • Gifafi
    4101 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    Anakin brought balance by turning into Darth Vader and killing the Jedi. There were hundreds or Jedi running around and two Sith. No balance at all.

    If you just look at the sole survivors known from just the movies, Episode 4-6, you would have two Sith, Palpatine and Vader, and two Jedi, Old Ben and Yoda, alive. Balance.

    With Luke being the sole survivor after Episode 6 for decades, the balance would be lost again.

    Balance, is described in SW as a state where things are fair and peaceful. It is not explaining 2=2.
    If you think the Empire/Sith regime is what you call a balanced life, it would be the same as living in a **** German occupied world where you couldn't do anything about it.

    Thats what the "good" guys tell you. Its a jedi prophecy, so of course it has their cult winning in the end. To truly balance the force there would be neither jedi or sith. Not only jedi or only sith.

    Incorrect. There would be fair use of the force as it was naturally intended - not the corruption of the darkside, nor the dogmatic view of the arrogant Jedi. A new breed of force users attune to the force, fair and just.

    Otherwise with Rey - the force is still out of balance at the end of TROS.

    which is why it should have been her and Kylo Ben at the end, forging a new path together. imo. plus, "jedi's" with lighting hands would be dope lol
    Maybe End Game isn't for you
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out the Underworld Alliance on Discord:https://discord.gg/wvrYb4Q
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.

    I never said Luke balanced the force at all - all I said was through the lessons learned the force was balanced with him going forward. Anakin was the one who balanced it. It was Anakin's story that taught Luke.

    Luke didn't really teach Rey anything, other than no one is entitled to the force, the force just is, both dark and light. That is all he "taught" Rey.

    Let's say the force is now balanced with Rey, then we get another trilogy, where Rey wants to kill a child and hermits herself away and the whole thing repeats - what does that do for the overall story? Nothing. The story was told between E1-6 and the ST adds nothing to the saga. It adds nothing.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.

    I never said Luke balanced the force at all - all I said was through the lessons learned the force was balanced with him going forward. Anakin was the one who balanced it. It was Anakin's story that taught Luke.

    Luke didn't really teach Rey anything, other than no one is entitled to the force, the force just is, both dark and light. That is all he "taught" Rey.

    Let's say the force is now balanced with Rey, then we get another trilogy, where Rey wants to kill a child and hermits herself away and the whole thing repeats - what does that do for the overall story? Nothing. The story was told between E1-6 and the ST adds nothing to the saga. It adds nothing.

    so all he taught Rey is exactly what you say he learned in the OT? If Luke was supposed to go forward and teach a new type of Jedi that embraced the force without the corrupting teachings of the light or dark side fanatics, it seems he succeeded.
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out the Underworld Alliance on Discord:https://discord.gg/wvrYb4Q
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.

    I never said Luke balanced the force at all - all I said was through the lessons learned the force was balanced with him going forward. Anakin was the one who balanced it. It was Anakin's story that taught Luke.

    Luke didn't really teach Rey anything, other than no one is entitled to the force, the force just is, both dark and light. That is all he "taught" Rey.

    Let's say the force is now balanced with Rey, then we get another trilogy, where Rey wants to kill a child and hermits herself away and the whole thing repeats - what does that do for the overall story? Nothing. The story was told between E1-6 and the ST adds nothing to the saga. It adds nothing.

    so all he taught Rey is exactly what you say he learned in the OT? If Luke was supposed to go forward and teach a new type of Jedi that embraced the force without the corrupting teachings of the light or dark side fanatics, it seems he succeeded.

    I agree there is that - but what he was really teaching her is why she shouldn't bother to become a Jedi. Quite different once you take that into account.
  • I think the best part of all of this is how bad the movies did to portray what they wanted. If they did a better job we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Too much of left open for each persons interpretation.
  • Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.

    I never said Luke balanced the force at all - all I said was through the lessons learned the force was balanced with him going forward. Anakin was the one who balanced it. It was Anakin's story that taught Luke.

    Luke didn't really teach Rey anything, other than no one is entitled to the force, the force just is, both dark and light. That is all he "taught" Rey.

    Let's say the force is now balanced with Rey, then we get another trilogy, where Rey wants to kill a child and hermits herself away and the whole thing repeats - what does that do for the overall story? Nothing. The story was told between E1-6 and the ST adds nothing to the saga. It adds nothing.

    so all he taught Rey is exactly what you say he learned in the OT? If Luke was supposed to go forward and teach a new type of Jedi that embraced the force without the corrupting teachings of the light or dark side fanatics, it seems he succeeded.

    I agree there is that - but what he was really teaching her is why she shouldn't bother to become a Jedi. Quite different once you take that into account.

    Is it though? Can you truly create a new form of Jedi without first understanding why you shouldn't become "the Jedi"? You have to understand what was wrong and why you shouldn't become them before you can truly learn from their mistakes, as Luke has supposedly done and now passed on to Rey.
    Looking for a new guild? Come check out the Underworld Alliance on Discord:https://discord.gg/wvrYb4Q
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    Boo wrote: »
    I am curious why people actually liked this trilogy - not trying to be funny, I just really don't get it.

    i enjoyed all of the movies individually, but wish they would have committed to a singular vision of the trilogy, specifically Rian's.

    JJ abrams is a great director at making flashy entertaining movies with little to no substance or original ideas. Fun to watch, but thats about it. Rian johnson actually tried to make an original star wars movie (granted imo his execution of it was poor), or atleast bring literally anything new to the franchise besides another giant superweapon or the same bad guy from 6 other movies.

    Specifically, my favorite part of the sequels might also be my favorite part of the entire universe: TLJ Luke. Through Luke we are shown once again that the Jedi aren't these all powerful superheroes that they wish they were, they are beings with faults and shortcomings who make mistakes. Luke realizes he has fallen into the same mistakes as the generations before him and learns from this. Also, the cynical/sarcastic humor is my style so that helps too.

    Yikes - I get what you are saying, but the point of Luke's character's development in the OT were that he wasn't going to fall in line with the shortcomings of prior Jedi - he was a new generation of Jedi - the EU saw this, but the ST didn't. I think that was a huge problem.

    Did Johnson try to make an original star wars movie? He gave us another hermit Jedi, another battle of Hoth, another Throne Room fight scene blah blah blah.

    All he did was try to subvert expectations and derailed the ST's story arc in the process. In my view, he was too much of a coward to actually give the franchise something actually new.

    I think his style of subverting expectations works well for a murder mystery (Knives Out) type flick, but not for a well known franchise, mid trilogy - he just didn't work in my view.

    So what? A character cannot be changed over the course of a few decades off screen based on a devastating event in their past? Luke failed as a teacher and couldn't handle it, like other jedi before him. But he is more powerful teacher to the audience than the like of yoda or Obi wan because we saw him as one who would be the super jedi, only to see him succumb to the same faults. This reinforces that the Jedi are not some perfect order and should be put to rest for the good of the galaxy. There cannot be balance in the force if there is only light.

    The whole point of Luke's character in the OT in the context after the release of the PT is that the force had been re-balanced and Luke was going to create a new generation of Jedi, aware of the Republic's era of Jedi's faults, including their training.

    Regardless of what they did to Luke's character in the ST, Rey ends up in the exact same position as Luke did in ROTJ - nothing has been added to the story of star wars with this new trilogy, that's my point.

    Rey has just become the new Luke and will be training the next generation of Jedi going forward - this trilogy was pointless.

    The force cannot be balanced with only the light existing. That is not how balance works.

    Also, we do not know that Rey is setting out to train a new generation of Jedi, unless that is somewhere in the books that I have not read. If she has learned from the past three movies, which I believe was signified by the burying of the lightsabers, then she will not set out to rebuild the Jedi. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, maybe she will try and forge a new path of force sensitives that completely ignores the teachings of a flawed and corrupt cult. Who knows, thats for a hypothetical future trilogy to address.

    Yet Rey embodied all the Jedi and stood as a Jedi at the end of TROS.

    If you did not understand how the force was balanced with Luke at the end of ROTJ - then you didn't understand star wars at all.

    i understand how Luke fulfilled a prophecy for a cult of extemists who believe they are always right, but that does not equal balance in the Force between light and dark. Unless you are calling Luke not a Light side jedi, but rather a neutral force user who harnesses both powers from the light and the dark.

    Then you do not understand star wars - it was Anakin that fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy was of the force, not for the jedi or sith - the Jedi made it "their" prophecy, which is why they believed it was misread as they could not fathom that the prophecy included their own demise.

    Luke was not the chosen one, not did he fulfill the prophecy - Anakin did.

    Luke had learned from his own experiences - how his father fell to the darkside and why the jedi were wrong. He was to pass on to others what he learned - not what he was taught. The jedi were wrong.

    But you said Luke balanced the force? But I thought Anakin fulfilled the prophecy to balance the force? If Luke learned all these things and was a capable teacher, than the Force should still be good and balanced. Luke taught Rey, and it definitely wasn't the traditional Jedi teachings or how great being a Jedi is. Based on these teachings from the poster boy for this "new breed of Jedi", Rey should be able to forge her own path forward without being tied to the ideals of a long dead fanatical group. But we will not know for sure until a potential future trilogy re-writes everything we know.

    I understand Star wars just fine, it is a space-fantasy version of the constant struggle between good and evil that persists through a large proportion of stories in human history. This one just happens to be between two fanatical religious groups that can harness the power of the world around them.

    I never said Luke balanced the force at all - all I said was through the lessons learned the force was balanced with him going forward. Anakin was the one who balanced it. It was Anakin's story that taught Luke.

    Luke didn't really teach Rey anything, other than no one is entitled to the force, the force just is, both dark and light. That is all he "taught" Rey.

    Let's say the force is now balanced with Rey, then we get another trilogy, where Rey wants to kill a child and hermits herself away and the whole thing repeats - what does that do for the overall story? Nothing. The story was told between E1-6 and the ST adds nothing to the saga. It adds nothing.

    so all he taught Rey is exactly what you say he learned in the OT? If Luke was supposed to go forward and teach a new type of Jedi that embraced the force without the corrupting teachings of the light or dark side fanatics, it seems he succeeded.

    I agree there is that - but what he was really teaching her is why she shouldn't bother to become a Jedi. Quite different once you take that into account.

    Is it though? Can you truly create a new form of Jedi without first understanding why you shouldn't become "the Jedi"? You have to understand what was wrong and why you shouldn't become them before you can truly learn from their mistakes, as Luke has supposedly done and now passed on to Rey.

    I get what you are saying and agree. But he literally didn't want any Jedi at all - he wanted the Jedi to end and he even cut himself off from the force. He was trying to tell her that her efforts are futile - and that was wrong. I know he was the cranky hermit Luke, but like I say, that was so out of character because of the points already mentioned in our discussion in regard to how balance in the force was achieved at the end of ROTJ - The interpretation of Luke in TLJ literally threw it all away.

    Other than that he did very little to "train" her. JJ retconned this with Rey's training under Leia in TROS.

    So I wouldn't really consider Luke as Rey's master, more so Leia was Rey's master.
  • Yeah, Leia probably did a much better job in training Rey, even if it was for less than 5 mins
  • Boo
    4033 posts Member
    AntiFunn wrote: »
    Yeah, Leia probably did a much better job in training Rey, even if it was for less than 5 mins

    However, we don't know exactly how much time had passed between E8 and 9, or how deep their relationship was as master and apprentice.

    I appreciate we didn't need to do a whole training arc, like we got with Luke in the OT, but at least Lucas understood this with the PT and skipped ahead a decade between E1 and 2 and more years between E2 and 3 in regard to Anakin's training and development.

    Rey was just insanely good right off the bat, so my point is that JJ's retcon having Leia "train" Rey was a little too late.

    Why couldn't TLJ begin with Luke handing back Rey his old lightsaber, as she had completed her training with him between E7 and 8 - I don't think we needed to jump directly from one movie to the next with no time passing.

    As Snoke said he was to complete Kylo's training as well during this time, it would also allude to Kylo being more powerful as well. Could have set up a better dynamic between the two (Rey and Kylo) and perhaps Kylo could have taken the lead as the main villain in 9, judging by how powerful and ruthless he could have become.

    Ahhh - here I go again. So many things/opportunities they could have done with this trilogy and instead it was just wasted.
  • LordDirt
    1317 posts Member
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.
  • TVF
    22562 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.

    It's not in the movie so it doesn't count/matter.
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  • TVF wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.

    It's not in the movie so it doesn't count/matter.

    OR DOES IT?
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  • TVF
    22562 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.

    It's not in the movie so it doesn't count/matter.

    OR DOES IT?

    Ur gonna have to give me some time to fase that.
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  • LordDirt
    1317 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.

    It's not in the movie so it doesn't count/matter.

    So only movies count? That changes a lot in the universe of Star Wars.
  • TVF
    22562 posts Member
    LordDirt wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    LordDirt wrote: »
    So now one of the failed Palpatine clones is Rey’s father? lol Just when I thought the movie couldn’t get worse.

    It's not in the movie so it doesn't count/matter.

    So only movies count? That changes a lot in the universe of Star Wars.

    To me, yes. I don't care what someone wrote in a book after the fact. Or a comic. Or on a cereal box.
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