SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    Kyno wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Kyno 1) sure, I did think a new GL and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise should be good in the current meta. But that doesn't change what I said about this being the overriding concern I heard from heavy Sith players (the ones we're relying on to figure many of these battles out since they already have stuff like well-modded high relic triumvirate).

    I agree with you that maybe these expectations are wrong. That's fine, but these GLs come at immense investment of time, resources, maybe cash. I think it's clear that people expect their GLs to be pretty good meta-wise, and if CG could correct those expectations and explain what it is SEE is supposed to be good at (SLKR fits SEE's dev description of hiding behind tanks becoming powerful better than SEE does), that would help immensely with expectations.

    .

    Franchise and lore do not come into play, and should not be introduced into this conversation.

    I understand that he should be good in the current climate, and he does do well verse the LS GLs.

    Again, CG should not come in to "correct expectations", they have stated the design intent, and after players have pointed out that it doesn't seem to be meeting that, they replied that they are keeping an eye on things. So the point we are at, is to bring as much evidence to their attention (which why I keep asking). So they can see what's going on and figure out if this is where they intended or if it needs adjusting and how they can make adjustments.


    dgree wrote: »

    2) rock-paper-scissors implies balance. If SEE is able to actually contribute to a battle against JML, but is extremely handicapped against GLs like SLKR, that doesn't mean it's rock-paper scissors. It just means JML has a weakness and SEE can exploit that but is otherwise barely an improvement and sometimes even a weakness in existing Sith squads. A fitting explainer I saw was something along the lines of SLKR is adamantium scissors that can cut or break anything, JML is a rock, Rey is paper, and SEE is a pile of poop or something.

    .

    In a previous quote someone (maybe you ) brought up starcraft as an example and as I replied, I dont think i fully thought about it. Games like Starcraft are not really RPS like, because they have balance.

    RPS, IMO implies some level of imbalance, meaning that not all battles have the same weight (in terms of reliability of win), the closer to RPS you get the more restrictive you get on reliability, but once you hit reliable in all cases, I feel like you leave that realm.

    But 1 SLKR comp doesnt just beat everything. Different JML comps beat more than just 1 team. Different Rey comps can win. As you said in a previous post, there are SEE comps that do more than others and so on.

    I'm not saying SEE is where he should be in that mix, but if your looking to him reliably being able to always beat SLKR, then you may be just focused on the wrong detail.
    People don't need SEE to beat Light Side at all, They just take SLKR, Vader, Trawn, DRevan etc that's enough. And they reliably counter Light Side. Just please share the purpose of SEE, if it's not a secret

    When they were released, you saw the kit for SEE and thought he was going to be the next counter to SLKR?

    With all the very specific LS stuff he had laid out in his kit, that was not what I saw.

    I'm not saying I thought he wouldnt be able to win in some way, but his kit is a wait and attack kit, SLKR is the anti wait kit. Waiting to do anything against SLKR is always a bad idea. IMO.

    Think the Issue is that people expected him to be able to beat Kylo once the waiting was over, but as it stands now he feels significantly weaker even after transforming which feels rather unfair seeing how Kylo can kick **** from the get go.

    While Im fine with him not doing well against Kylo, the issue is hes not very good against Rey either. While you can beat her fairly reliably on offense (Id say about 70-80%) thats mainly because you have bastilla and vader keeping Rey from whirlwinding your team into oblivion, and even then most if not all of your teammates will be dead by the end. If anything Reys kit is more of a counter to SEE. And in a 1v1 SEE is desperately struggling to kill Rey against the clock, unlike Kylo who can easily finish her.
    SEE even fails to beat JML if hes using Bastilla lead Wat.

    and from what we saw in one of the more recent attempts he gets close, maybe there is still some work that can be done there.

    SLKR stacking mastery the whole time, I didn't look at his kit and think he was going to beat SLKR, not reliably. even after the wait....its the wait that kills you against SLKR. but thats just me.

    SEE failing against a specific comp is understandable.

    I understand there is an issue that people see with what you are stating there, and that is why we are asking for people to showcase this and discuss the points of interested that can be changed.

    Considering SEE gets demolished by Kylo, struggles against Rey and have 0 value on defense, failing against the only GL (and one of the few teams in general) hes apparently designed to do well against can hardly be seen as understandable.

    Just consider the implications that has for GA. You cant put him on defense. You cant use him against Kylo. You dont want to use him against Rey, since that requires you to spend an already great Sith team for an not even guaranteed low banner victory. And if your opponent has GML and put the bastilla team on defense you cant even use SEE for that. That pretty much relegates SEE to be a glorified CLS counter. If you want a good GAS counter you could just go for ChewPO instead and press auto with CLS.

    I cant possibly see how making people unlock a GL just to force them to use him against teams with 1/5 of the cost can be considered understandable.

    100 % agree, if team is not very good on arena, there is no point to farm this team and use in GAC, to beat Nigh sisters, Revan, JKL we have much cheaper counters. Seems we farm SEE only to use against JML in some traditional sets and secondary teams.


  • Just realised that ChewPO CLS even beats Bastilla lead GML, and since both Drevan and EP can already beat standard GML teams youre objectively better of going for ChewPO than SEE 🤪

    Yeah chewpio is far more useful, no regrets.
  • Just realised that ChewPO CLS even beats Bastilla lead GML, and since both Drevan and EP can already beat standard GML teams youre objectively better of going for ChewPO than SEE 🤪

    And by going for ChewPO you are also most the way done getting GML who can even make older grand Republic jedi decent to good... while SEE cant make the trash sith good.
  • Kyno
    27474 posts Moderator
    edited November 2020
    @Xagen can you show the opposite of those battles with SEE on offense.

    Those are great, but losing on defense is not surprising. (And hes things like this have been shared)

    Edit to add: a GL losing to a GL is always going to be ok.
  • Rey’s been shown to usually win versus the three other GLs on Offense but lose to them all on Defense. So that SEE actually gave Rey a bit of a run for her money.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    @Xagen can you show the opposite of those battles with SEE on offense.

    Those are great, but losing on defense is not surprising. (And hes things like this have been shared)

    Edit to add: a GL losing to a GL is always going to be ok.
    Sure, i can just say that it's more Vader counter than See
    Actually Vader beats successfully even without SEE, we all know that fact.
  • @Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?
  • Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    @Xagen can you show the opposite of those battles with SEE on offense.

    Those are great, but losing on defense is not surprising. (And hes things like this have been shared)

    Edit to add: a GL losing to a GL is always going to be ok.
    Sure, i can just say that it's more Vader counter than See
    Actually Vader beats successfully even without SEE, we all know that fact.


    I would like to see some videos of SEE beating ult Rey, without Vader in the team
  • Kyno
    27474 posts Moderator
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.
  • @LordDunbar With WAT, sorry most videos with SEE countering REY include Vader
  • Xagen wrote: »
    @LordDunbar With WAT, sorry most videos with SEE countering REY include Vader

    So SEE basically replaces Vader, and not only that, but he finishes solo (barely alive) vs. Rey for minimal banners. With Vader and Wat I can beat most any Rey team already without SEE, and typically do it with only 1 to 2 losses in the team for more banners.

    So SEE is not reallllly useful to beating GLRey.

    So the consensus stands, the only use SEE has in the game is beating JML teams.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    @LordDunbar With WAT, sorry most videos with SEE countering REY include Vader

    So SEE basically replaces Vader, and not only that, but he finishes solo (barely alive) vs. Rey for minimal banners. With Vader and Wat I can beat most any Rey team already without SEE, and typically do it with only 1 to 2 losses in the team for more banners.

    So SEE is not reallllly useful to beating GLRey.

    So the consensus stands, the only use SEE has in the game is beating JML teams.

    i also came to this conclusion, did you see basic damage of post-ultimate see against GK 109 k and the same basic damage against REY smth about 30k more than 3 times less.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.
  • Kyno
    27474 posts Moderator
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.

    I'm not saying hes where he should be, I feel like he should be way more beast on offense, at possibly the sacrifice of being good on defense.

    But he can give options, and that is the important part. So we just need to figure out where everything is going to settle down.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the modding from that video. Just for damage reference.
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.

    I'm not saying hes where he should be, I feel like he should be way more beast on offense, at possibly the sacrifice of being good on defense.

    But he can give options, and that is the important part. So we just need to figure out where everything is going to settle down.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the modding from that video. Just for damage reference.

    Just to make sure, he should be beast for offense, for GAC, ok, but even he wins 50/50, as far as i can see, against REY, he loses most units after REY AOE, at the same time some mixed teams like Vader + WAT, Gas + Revan can better perform, i mean banners. Palps system itself is not good for GAC at all, as he usually loses most team till his Ulta is activated. And it's fact
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    While he stay and wait for his ultimate, his allies just die one by one. His kit is not appropriate against GLs with powerful AOE, as siths cannot be revived.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.

    I'm not saying hes where he should be, I feel like he should be way more beast on offense, at possibly the sacrifice of being good on defense.

    But he can give options, and that is the important part. So we just need to figure out where everything is going to settle down.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the modding from that video. Just for damage reference.

    BTW, if you look at the second video I linked, at 3:55 a deceived Hyoda uses an ability, but Rey doesnt get deceived. Ive noticed that in several battles it seems that Deceive stops spreading (at least to Rey) once SEE transforms. I have the zeta on the unique, and his ult doesnt state that Deceive stops spreading after using it, so is it a bug?
  • Xagen
    407 posts Member
    Maybe DEVs could have a look at his kit, which doesn't allow him to perform good on Arena, on GA and TW (it's obvious. Not being good on Arena he could hardly be good on GA and TW. Due to his unique kit, owner will lose banners on offense and defense).
  • Kyno wrote: »
    I'm not saying hes where he should be, I feel like he should be way more beast on offense, at possibly the sacrifice of being good on defense.

    Yeah I'd be happy with that, more offense. Already he is bad for defense so I don't think his defense needs to be nerfed any more.

  • Kyno
    27474 posts Moderator
    Xagen wrote: »
    Maybe DEVs could have a look at his kit, which doesn't allow him to perform good on Arena, on GA and TW (it's obvious. Not being good on Arena he could hardly be good on GA and TW. Due to his unique kit, owner will lose banners on offense and defense).

    We were told that at thia point changes to his kit would need a "really good reason". So direct changes without some exploit is not likely. Background changes to his damage and stuff are more likely of they are going to make changes. At least that's my thinking from what has been said.
  • Kyno
    27474 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.

    I'm not saying hes where he should be, I feel like he should be way more beast on offense, at possibly the sacrifice of being good on defense.

    But he can give options, and that is the important part. So we just need to figure out where everything is going to settle down.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the modding from that video. Just for damage reference.

    BTW, if you look at the second video I linked, at 3:55 a deceived Hyoda uses an ability, but Rey doesnt get deceived. Ive noticed that in several battles it seems that Deceive stops spreading (at least to Rey) once SEE transforms. I have the zeta on the unique, and his ult doesnt state that Deceive stops spreading after using it, so is it a bug?

    I will ask about the deceive spreading.
  • Eweff
    374 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Xagen wrote: »
    Kyno By the way, you mentioned that Palp can be used for Grand Arena, it's true, but if i plan to set SEE on defense, I will take 3 siths tanks from my teams to make him more or less good for defense, and Triumvirate loses tank, DREVAN team loses two tanks, and what we have eventually, bad team for defense, two bad teams for attack, right?

    As I have said a few times, there are many great teams that are never used on defense because they have such reliable counters. That doesnt make them less useful, in the grand scheme of things.

    But from what we can observe, so far, the only practical use SEE has on offense is beating JML teams. I say practical, because any other team out there already has counters that work better. So we are not going to include SEE beating Ewoks or Phoenix as part of the equation.

    So, is it really, a good thing that a galactic legend, who only has one real offensive use, can be beaten so easily on defense?

    It just doesn't add up to me.

    Doesn’t JML lose to a three man DR-BSF-Wat?
    Plus, doesn’t SEE lose to a JML with Bast lead?

    Edited typo.
    Post edited by Eweff on
  • Bastila Lead, not Fallen Bastila lead. And I’m fairly sure SEE can win that battle.
  • Eweff
    374 posts Member
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    Bastila Lead, not Fallen Bastila lead. And I’m fairly sure SEE can win that battle.

    You are correct. I typo-d. But I’m pretty sure I saw ultimate SEE on offense lose to Bast lead JML, but I could be wrong. Let me go look
  • My guess is that it needs some sort of trick to it. Either siphoning all of JML’s natual Prot so he heals less or still having allies around to di things. Not a hard counter, not a pushover, something in the middle.
  • Eweff
    374 posts Member
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    My guess is that it needs some sort of trick to it. Either siphoning all of JML’s natual Prot so he heals less or still having allies around to di things. Not a hard counter, not a pushover, something in the middle.

    I remembered. This is what I was thinking of.

  • Under the rock paper scissors analogy, my daily arena climb is navigating a pair of scissors through an asteroid field.

    In addition to strengths and weaknesses, you also need parity in numbers for this to balance. By the time that happens, the next meta will be here.
  • Sewpot
    1560 posts Member

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    What I’m finding in arena is the AI always goes for traya first. Clobber her as fast as they can and then they kill a tank.
    The more and more I play SEE it’s very clear his only intent was to kill jml. Lame
    I really didn’t need any single characters that I farmed, need to farm extra characters to help the team work yay
    You use the word synergies to describe SEE’ teammates. They don’t synergize well at all.
    Jml team in open moves will already have ability block,stun,buff immunit,breach, etc etc on all the team except SEE. SEE’s next move is call assist. That’s not going to happen.
    All moves with SEE team involves waiting for the next move, wait for the next move.
    Nihilus you wait and wait.
    Sion you wait for nothing.
    SEE is wait, toss fart, wait again

    Not a chance that SEE is on par with the other 3.
    1st- SLKR
    2nd-3- rey/jMl
    4th-SEE

    If they devs can give me a team that saws in half rey,kylo and jml like troopers do to SEE then please gimme gimme gimme!!!
    All other counters take away from their teams, and take some skill and time to have a successful battle.
    Troopers don’t take away from anyone and destroy SEE in seconds.

    On a happy note I started farming jml today and will have him very soon.
    That will be all 4 GLs by the end of the month. So at least I have the cure for that one match if I face jMl. Or some weaker lighside side team.
    And if I face another SEE in defence then I have troopers to help me get max banners.
    So disappointed



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