SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    This isn’t a sandbox complaint as much as it is frustration that it seems like such a responsibility is put on players, instead of enjoying the game, to do this work for CG.

    The only "responsiblity" put on the players is to Rey and give examples of things they are not happy with.

    I was just looking for a little bit of evidence that his charge rate is slower than would be useful as compared to an existing non GL.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Meanwhile, let's ignore that SLKR, Rey, and JML have instakills that can kill up to 4 enemy heros at once, but the devastating attacker SEE can instakill 2.

    With SLKR, he is billed as an Immense Attacker, which is a step above a Devastating attacker so that's at least somewhat understandable. 🙄

    I would say that both JML and Rey are extremely situational to do this, and require a fair amount of setup.

    SLKR can get there, but can also be stopped with a little strategy from getting there too quick. Which would be similar to SEE.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    I don't know what the background is on this video, but looks cool

    https://youtu.be/M00k2M52In4

    Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....

    Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.

    Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.

    That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.

    You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.

    So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?

    For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.

    Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.

    So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?

    Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.

    Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.

    That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.

    Sure. No chance. Got it.

    It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.

    You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.

    Okay then here, I fixed it. "If only the devs with a solid test environment and plenty of suggestions from the thread, or the mod with a high level account who regularly checks the thread, could do some of the testing that they seem to want so bad."

    I dont have SEE, or access to the test environment. Asking the players in the evaluation group they spoke about, doesnt seem like the best idea right now as they would have been involved in the original testing that some here have been questioning.

    Does your shard not have any SEE's to test against? It wouldn't be that hard to run one of the comps you've asked for proof of against an SEE.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Meanwhile, let's ignore that SLKR, Rey, and JML have instakills that can kill up to 4 enemy heros at once, but the devastating attacker SEE can instakill 2.

    With SLKR, he is billed as an Immense Attacker, which is a step above a Devastating attacker so that's at least somewhat understandable. 🙄

    I would say that both JML and Rey are extremely situational to do this, and require a fair amount of setup.

    SLKR can get there, but can also be stopped with a little strategy from getting there too quick. Which would be similar to SEE.

    The difference is, even if you stop SLKR from cranking out dozens of AOE moves and an ult, he still hits like a truck. SEE is useless without the ult, so saying they have equal capacity to slow them down actually works against SEE in this case.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    This isn’t a sandbox complaint as much as it is frustration that it seems like such a responsibility is put on players, instead of enjoying the game, to do this work for CG.

    The only "responsiblity" put on the players is to Rey and give examples of things they are not happy with.

    I was just looking for a little bit of evidence that his charge rate is slower than would be useful as compared to an existing non GL.

    The evidence is that with Triumvirate by his side and good luck on cooldown reduction, Nihilus only needs six turns to crank out an annihilate. SEE needs in a PERFECT run, the equivalent of 5 Nihilus turns for each ult, and is much easier to slow down (ie dying while linked or being dark side and not being easily deceived). And this is only if the SEE in question is the fastest in the world, which would mean they sacrificed damage and crit chance or health/protection and the like, so he probably won't survive long post-ult anyway.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.
  • SEE gains Ult charge from Abilities, not turns. So the Max is much, much higher than 10% per turn. Especially when you factor in a Linked Wat or Vader.
  • In my SEE trio team my Nihilus can get off 2 annihilates before SEE can ult AND use his aoe... cause him using his ult WASTES his turn.

    Granted thats also using treya to help reduce cooldowns as well but its smart play.
  • Shadowmaster4
    475 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    TargetEadu wrote: »
    SEE gains Ult charge from Abilities, not turns. So the Max is much, much higher than 10% per turn. Especially when you factor in a Linked Wat or Vader.

    Ah yeah, Vader would mess that up. I was accounting for SEE being a single target attacker so even counters wouldn't add much. I forgot Vader and Wat. But for that you'd have to be able to link those two through any pretaunts that happen. Like JML, or any tank Jedi under Bast lead. You could still gain a bit more than 10% if the turn order lined up right or people mass swarmed. But it's unlikely and seems a good average considering you're also likely to be slowed down in that regard or kill off a linked tank early. Ult charge is so finnicky I just went by the single target max of someone going as fast as a GL, which is to say 20% per turn Nihilus gets without tm gain from Traya. It seemed a fair balance to calculate that way given all of the ways to slow SEE but not many ways to speed it up. And if someone sped it up in those ways, that was bad gameplay on their part.

    Basically I gave SEE an average guesstimate when calculating his turns, given most lineups against him have a pretaunt to stop the link being useful, and deceive takes a bit to get rolling, so he probably evens out to around five of Nihilus' turns. But DN can gain tm and have his CD reduced, so realistically in their optimal lineups, they both get to insta-kill on the same turn.....except SEE ult wastes a turn. So Nihilus goes first, and recharges faster, but SEE kills two at a time.

    Honestly they're probably equal, but Nihilus is harder to slow down.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Meanwhile, let's ignore that SLKR, Rey, and JML have instakills that can kill up to 4 enemy heros at once, but the devastating attacker SEE can instakill 2.

    I would say that both JML and Rey are extremely situational to do this, and require a fair amount of setup.

    SLKR can get there, but can also be stopped with a little strategy from getting there too quick. Which would be similar to SEE.


    Situational, yes. Indeed, their AOEs won't wipe out an entire team unless they are well modded and the opposing team is not. Rey and Kylo do however hit so hard on their individual attacks that every turn is almost, or is, an instakill, and they get many of those attacks throughout the course of a battle. SEE has to wait a long time to get 2 instakills in, and then he goes back to throwing farts.

    Anyway, the point isn't about it being situational. The point is, it CAN be done; so SEE's instakill ability on 2 linked targets is nothing new, exciting, or unique. It's just a gimmick for him, and a poor excuse to call him a devastating attacker. All GLs have that potential, or even potential for better.

    If he could use that ability on GLs, then it would be worth it. But the fact you can only use that ability on non-GLs, doesn't make him any more scary than the other GLs that can already instakill most non-GL targets (save for tanks modded with immense protection).

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  • Oh you meant the Ult... I was trying to figure out how you killed 4 characters with one Sudden Whirlwind.

  • @Kyno

    Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.

    q0boqmb86zwb.jpg
  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Kyno wrote: »
    Also, just so we can put the bad joke to bed.

    Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.

    Nihilus can annihilate enemies at about the same rate SEE can, and he absorbs their max HP when he does so. I do not consider the 2x annihilation with a huge cooldown, in an age of SEE's competitors being immune to annihilation, enough to call SEE a "devastating attacker." There, I said it.

    Compared to Rey Ult and SLKR's damage output, this really isn't that impressive, and instead of having a bunch of other strengths in his kit, SEE generally has a bunch of weaknesses. It's not balanced and SEE is doing very much non-GL attacker damage 4-5 minutes into the battle when it's his only strength other than the prot drain ability. Take away his anti-Jedi bonuses and it's not even strong damage, let alone "devastating." This is a gimmick, it's a bunch of sparkly lights to distract you from the main thing he does post-ultimate, if he even gets to ultimate--basic spam. And I don't even want to think about his basic damage without the huge multipliers and defense ignore compared to SLKR's basic damage (and, as mentioned, SLKR does a lot more than this).

    No, I do not consider SEE to be a "devastating attacker."



    As far as the Bast/Wat thing: I'm not concerned that JML on offense or maybe even on defense can win a battle vs SEE. I'm more concerned that this is an example of how subpar SEE's damage is even in the best circumstances with his anti-Jedi niche (that should be pared down a lot to focus on his weak general kit and mechanics). I'm more concerned that wat arguably is a more useful team for DS and even Jedi squads than SEE is for Sith. Wat, Thrawn, Malak work great with SLKR but SEE does very little for them, and while SEE can put shield tech to good use, it's sad how badly SEE needs it, and SEE's weakness often means he doesn't have a spot in his squad for wat because his tanks can't tank (if Linked applied to GLs as well--quite fair as mentioned yesterday--it would quickly balance that issue).
    Post edited by dgree on
  • Yeah, almost every SEE owner calls the ultimate AOE what it is - trash and apparently it’s a bad joke. No, the toon is a bad joke! Rey spams her whirlwind dealing 200k-300k over and over and over, her ultimate can wipe out while teams no problem and her survivability is right up there. SLKR... well the damage he does is ridiculous! He can almost one shot toons out the gate and stacks damage SO well. SEE gets his ultimate off... annihilates 2 toons - except GL’s... in an age where GL’s are the norm in the top 50-100+. Then he’s back to a pathetic basic that might, MIGHT hit for 100k in absolutely perfect circumstances. Oh and his survivability and zetas are thrown out the window at the same time that his “uber” AOE has been put on a near unattainable cool down if you’re battling a good GL team. A near universal agreement from SEE owners that this is the case... but no keep calling everyone’s opinion on the move “a bad joke” and say “prove it” to every point... when you don’t even own the toon? Ok
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    @Kyno

    Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.

    q0boqmb86zwb.jpg

    Of all things, this is something that I would think that would cause the devs to act. To intentionally drop 4 of your team so you can beat another team that you may not as easily beat if you were full strength better fall under the “this isn’t intended” category.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • Looking at this whole SEE situation, it's been well over a month for CG to deploy some fix and they haven't delivered yet.
    This really discourages me, as a moderate spender, who got SEE out the gate simply because he was a Sith GL and I assumed he would atleast be decent on release,to invest in any upcoming GLs for the the first months of release and simply farm them F2P due to CG's laziness in bringing in line what they promised.
  • jezmonster
    33 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    @Kyno

    Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.

    q0boqmb86zwb.jpg

    Of all things, this is something that I would think that would cause the devs to act. To intentionally drop 4 of your team so you can beat another team that you may not as easily beat if you were full strength better fall under the “this isn’t intended” category.

    Without knowing the mods, gear levels, team comps, time of day, device used, gender of player, geographic location, slow motion video, and ally code of all parties involved this screenshot proves nothing.

    Without good proof CGs hands are tied I’m afraid.
  • CG needs to do something so that at least we can see him in arena. It is sad they release a brand new GL and he is nowhere to be found in the top 50 arena. I find some Rey, SLKR, JML teams but 0 SEE team
  • There’s a lot of work to do, but we feel the community deserves and wants more. I look forward to the things to come and being here to help as best I can.

    I was so optimistic when @CG_Doja_Fett showed up. I had hoped it was a sign that CG was changing for the better, that we would start getting some good communication. But on a issue that has so much feedback from players of how this 'GL' is not performing well, and how things could be improved, we have barely heard anything from the dev team.

    The community deserves and wants more.
  • That's the thing--it's not a communication issue. If they haven't mostly decided yet what they're going to do, or they're not sure if changes (if any) work yet, they may not have anything official to communicate. "We're looking at it but it's not a priority" is basically what we have. I'm sure they know what SEE's weaknesses are, even if they didn't foresee the weak result--the question is how much they care and how tough this is to fix. I don't think that's up to any comms people.
  • @Kyno
    I understand your stance on modding and comps needing to be tweaked from fight to fight. The problem is were presuming every time this comment is made 1. The opposing team is near max modded, comped itself and 2. I dont think the frustration is being observed that DS users in general have to constantly tweak and use gimmick characters to get over hurdles to get through these Jedi teams in general.

    Jedi squads are just superior in all functioning right now, requiring very little adjustment to be made. Thats just really frustrating to the rest of us. So

    Many people that are being shrewd commentators in here are 99% likely to be jedi owners, and that creates a natural bias to comment against any real SEE tweaking. Not saying you in particular, its just how certain comments can be interpreted.
  • dgree wrote: »
    That's the thing--it's not a communication issue. If they haven't mostly decided yet what they're going to do, or they're not sure if changes (if any) work yet, they may not have anything official to communicate. "We're looking at it but it's not a priority" is basically what we have. I'm sure they know what SEE's weaknesses are, even if they didn't foresee the weak result--the question is how much they care and how tough this is to fix. I don't think that's up to any comms people.

    This right here. They’ve got anniversary and other things in the pipeline immediately already. Taking time to even look at a rework isn’t likely in the schedule.
  • Dkfusion wrote: »
    @Kyno
    I understand your stance on modding and comps needing to be tweaked from fight to fight. The problem is were presuming every time this comment is made 1. The opposing team is near max modded, comped itself and 2. I dont think the frustration is being observed that DS users in general have to constantly tweak and use gimmick characters to get over hurdles to get through these Jedi teams in general.

    Jedi squads are just superior in all functioning right now, requiring very little adjustment to be made. Thats just really frustrating to the rest of us. So

    Many people that are being shrewd commentators in here are 99% likely to be jedi owners, and that creates a natural bias to comment against any real SEE tweaking. Not saying you in particular, its just how certain comments can be interpreted.

    The players on my shard NEVER have to change mods... so... saying its a modding issue is just nitpicking.

    So let me just say....

    HIS
    KIT
    IS
    WEAK

    He's a legendary kit with the GL unique.

    The ultimate test is if you unmod every character on the team. Would the teams still work? Or would SEE still get his **** pushed in?

    I bet you Rey and Slkr would be fine. So would JML.
  • jezmonster wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    @Kyno

    Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.

    q0boqmb86zwb.jpg

    Of all things, this is something that I would think that would cause the devs to act. To intentionally drop 4 of your team so you can beat another team that you may not as easily beat if you were full strength better fall under the “this isn’t intended” category.

    Without knowing the mods, gear levels, team comps, time of day, device used, gender of player, geographic location, slow motion video, and ally code of all parties involved this screenshot proves nothing.

    Without good proof CGs hands are tied I’m afraid.

    I want to know if they were wearing face masks too.
  • jezmonster wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    @Kyno

    Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.

    q0boqmb86zwb.jpg

    Of all things, this is something that I would think that would cause the devs to act. To intentionally drop 4 of your team so you can beat another team that you may not as easily beat if you were full strength better fall under the “this isn’t intended” category.

    Without knowing the mods, gear levels, team comps, time of day, device used, gender of player, geographic location, slow motion video, and ally code of all parties involved this screenshot proves nothing.

    Without good proof CGs hands are tied I’m afraid.

    We also need the gravitational constant, local air pressure, location of the earth in correlation to the moon, the numerical meaning of life, and your credit card number.
  • dgree
    520 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?
    Kyno wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Sewpot wrote: »
    Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.

    That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.

    Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.

    If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..

    We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....

    Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.

    Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.

    Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.

    Can you show your math?

    We already showed the math.

    Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.

    None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.

    I never said it was just off the top of your head.

    There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.


    Again, I am just trying to help. Specific examples of specific things allow for a better push or focus on those things. Many want to attack me for asking for these things. Ok. I'm not going to stop trying to do that, but theory crafting what should happen, wont cut it in the long run.
  • dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    1. Yes OR allow the 150% to work on ALL deceived targets. Either or would fix.
    2. See #1. This restriction should of just never been there to begin with.
    3. This can be done in addition OR substitution to #1. Alternatively a %potency stacking part of his leadership that converts to %offense. OR just have %offense stacking.
    4. Another way to do it. Especially with their philosophy of "SEE must be alone at the end".
    5. YES. this. It should have always hit GLs. This alone would make him 2x better.
    6. or you can just link solo targets. The mechanics are there. SEE vs SEE sometimes ends up in you being able to link a single target alone cause the enemy SEE cant be targeted.
    You can just add to the description of link... "Inflit link to enemy target. You must target another enemy UNLESS no other targets are available."
    Also see #5 as both these things would need to be done.
    7. Yes. see #5 and 6 as well. lol.
    8. If SEE got this then technically JML would need something as well as his ult works the same way. aka.. spend a turn, get nothing, then do stuff. And im all for JML ult getting fixed to.

    Alternatively if they leave the ult alone and you have to wait maybe give SEE more stats or some buffs to get him to his next turn. Or full heal him.
    Also.. he shouldn't lose So be it, Jedi. no reason why he should lose survival when he's "reborn and stronger."

    But yeah. You nailed everything on the head. Im here just posting secondary thoughts.

    TLDR:
    Deceived needs to work on everyone
    Link is... broken (in the bad way) right now
    Damage he lacks.
This discussion has been closed.