@Shiryu True, but I can't emphasize enough the point "the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced." Simply removing the LS restriction alone wouldn't fix SEE's damage. It should be a little stronger than that, and failing to increase SEE's pathetic multiplier--which is incredibly suspicious compared to other GL attackers, especially when he's supposed to be strong after his ultimate to compensate for his weakness--wouldn't work unless SEE gets full anti-LS and anti-Jedi bonuses against all enemies.
The stacking mastery would probably need to be improved simply because it's not a lot. Same idea. If we only rely on mastery gain, SEE would need a ton more mastery gain to compensate for the weak damage.
IMO the most subtle change to SEE would be to implement most or all of these fixes, because then they don't have to be implemented to an extreme degree. Too little of an update on SEE would basically be an announcement to the effect of "SEE must remain weak in the one area he's supposed to be strong in, in addition to all his other weaknesses and vulnerabilities, compared to other GLs" in which case they should just remove his GL ability and weak mastery gain and declare him a JKL-type toon and provide major refunds.
Kyno
I understand your stance on modding and comps needing to be tweaked from fight to fight. The problem is were presuming every time this comment is made 1. The opposing team is near max modded, comped itself and 2. I dont think the frustration is being observed that DS users in general have to constantly tweak and use gimmick characters to get over hurdles to get through these Jedi teams in general.
Jedi squads are just superior in all functioning right now, requiring very little adjustment to be made. Thats just really frustrating to the rest of us. So
Many people that are being shrewd commentators in here are 99% likely to be jedi owners, and that creates a natural bias to comment against any real SEE tweaking. Not saying you in particular, its just how certain comments can be interpreted.
Honestly "who cares" about thier bias, I'd they cannot provide the details on how to make him work, then it's of little effect on the situation and you may be incorrect (FYI).
We are being told in this thread multiple times, "all the testing has been done", and that there are groups of "experts out there" who have done and talked about all of this. So when I see a comment that sounds like it has any weight to it, my next move is to get some back up on that to share with that comment, because theory crafting based on the best mods out there is not realistic when pushing for a change.
The general sentiment has been heard, they commented, the next step is to provide them with everything we can to help an informed decision and hopefully a change is made. (We all wish they would comment about this, I know.)
Any dissenting opinion has been met with the same level of scrutiny, and has been asked to provide details in the same fashion, that is where you "can win" if you are trying to push for a change.
There are people out there making it work with minor changes to team comp. There are a few Jedi team comps, and SLKR comps used. It is nothing odd to not be able to dominate with solely 1 comp. I agree SEE shouldnt need to change for every team, I'm not saying this whole situation is the way it should be.
Ok I take back what I said about it being OK that SEE can be solo'd by Rey and SLKR. Turns out, people ARE willing to risk it.
Of all things, this is something that I would think that would cause the devs to act. To intentionally drop 4 of your team so you can beat another team that you may not as easily beat if you were full strength better fall under the “this isn’t intended” category.
Without knowing the mods, gear levels, team comps, time of day, device used, gender of player, geographic location, slow motion video, and ally code of all parties involved this screenshot proves nothing.
Without good proof CGs hands are tied I’m afraid.
We also need the gravitational constant, local air pressure, location of the earth in correlation to the moon, the numerical meaning of life, and your credit card number.
Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.
The fixes:
Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn
Fix explanations:
SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn Give me a insta-win button.
Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.
The fixes:
Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn
Fix explanations:
SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn Give me a insta-win button.
Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?
Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.
(This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)
I think it's time for "THey JUsT waNT an i-WIN BuTtoN" and "RoCk-PAper-sciSsorS" claims to get more scrutiny than people reasonably arguing that SEE isn't a "devastating attacker."
Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.
The fixes:
Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn
Fix explanations:
SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!
Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn Give me a insta-win button.
Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?
Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.
(This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)
To be fair we have seen several posts by people who dont disappear who think SEE should just be super powerful because they want thier GL to be an I win button too. Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof.
Maybe just stay on topic, and ignore it if you do not think there is merit to an addition without any basis in example.
Let’s be real here, SEE played both sides of the “light side” (galactic republic) and the “dark side” Seperatists and empire by controlling them all and manipulating them to do as he wished... so it wouldn’t be wrong thematically for him to deceive dark side units aswell like he does light side.
Let’s be real here, SEE played both sides of the “light side” (galactic republic) and the “dark side” Seperatists and empire by controlling them all and manipulating them to do as he wished... so it wouldn’t be wrong thematically for him to deceive dark side units aswell like he does light side.
I think lack of Empire and Republic tags on SEE points to our next GLs being Empire and Republic.
For example they should have given Rey a Jedi tag but they didn't... Likely because they knew JML was coming next.
C3po would be my choice for a galactic republic GL. He’s been in all the movies, he like the other GLs has multiple characters, and a crazy complex kit would be easily made for him since these kits are getting more and more ridiculous. And we don’t have any droid GLs so would be something new.
And since Vader made him then Vader would fit that Bill as well.
Yep, but still there are 3 fights against the same player and team comp.
That comp doesnt really seem like a good comp, anyone who have SEE, would you run or leave this comp as a good defensive comp?
Minus thrawn (I use Malak instead) that's the same team I leave on defense, it is what I've found to work the best so far. (Not that it works good at all - SEE is horrible on defense no matter what team you put with him).
SET and Traya are SEE staple defense. Even if you took out vader and thrawn from that team and replaced with something else, it's doubtful anything would change.
Actually, Vader and Thrawn are anti-NS (to get around Zombie), so if NS can beat that team they can beat any SEE team.
Yep, but still there are 3 fights against the same player and team comp.
That comp doesnt really seem like a good comp, anyone who have SEE, would you run or leave this comp as a good defensive comp?
Minus thrawn (I use Malak instead) that's the same team I leave on defense, it is what I've found to work the best so far. (Not that it works good at all - SEE is horrible on defense no matter what team you put with him).
SET and Traya are SEE staple defense. Even if you took out vader and thrawn from that team and replaced with something else, it's doubtful anything would change.
Actually, Vader and Thrawn are anti-NS (to get around Zombie), so if NS can beat that team they can beat any SEE team.
I would disagree with that last statement, as it is 100% not accurate at all.
Teams used on offense work because they are player controlled. Teams hold better on defense because the AI uses thier skills better.
We have seen SEE victories (in this thread) be discounted because they were against an "offensive team" or a counter comp, but when that happens against SEE, it's used as an example? Does that seem right?
Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.
I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.
Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.
Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL
Yep, but still there are 3 fights against the same player and team comp.
That comp doesnt really seem like a good comp, anyone who have SEE, would you run or leave this comp as a good defensive comp?
Minus thrawn (I use Malak instead) that's the same team I leave on defense, it is what I've found to work the best so far. (Not that it works good at all - SEE is horrible on defense no matter what team you put with him).
SET and Traya are SEE staple defense. Even if you took out vader and thrawn from that team and replaced with something else, it's doubtful anything would change.
Actually, Vader and Thrawn are anti-NS (to get around Zombie), so if NS can beat that team they can beat any SEE team.
I would disagree with that last statement, as it is 100% not accurate at all.
Teams used on offense work because they are player controlled. Teams hold better on defense because the AI uses thier skills better.
We have seen SEE victories (in this thread) be discounted because they were against an "offensive team" or a counter comp, but when that happens against SEE, it's used as an example? Does that seem right?
NS will probly work on other SEE teams as well. Probably all of them. That NS team was rather lacking. Ill try to get a shard mate to try out my team later with his NS.
with ZERO health restoring abilities the SEE team will just fall over. Which is funny cause EP L, vader L, Treya would just smack NS around like candy.
That Thrawn Vader combo is far from ideal. This sid nihilus team would melt NS. I’ve tried lots of comps and a complete sith team is the must have so far. Anything else on the team really doest have the same outcome/effectiveness as full sith comp in my opinion.
Yep, but still there are 3 fights against the same player and team comp.
That comp doesnt really seem like a good comp, anyone who have SEE, would you run or leave this comp as a good defensive comp?
Minus thrawn (I use Malak instead) that's the same team I leave on defense, it is what I've found to work the best so far. (Not that it works good at all - SEE is horrible on defense no matter what team you put with him).
SET and Traya are SEE staple defense. Even if you took out vader and thrawn from that team and replaced with something else, it's doubtful anything would change.
Actually, Vader and Thrawn are anti-NS (to get around Zombie), so if NS can beat that team they can beat any SEE team.
I would disagree with that last statement, as it is 100% not accurate at all.
Teams used on offense work because they are player controlled. Teams hold better on defense because the AI uses thier skills better.
We have seen SEE victories (in this thread) be discounted because they were against an "offensive team" or a counter comp, but when that happens against SEE, it's used as an example? Does that seem right?
Really, the team in the video (Thrawn, Traya, Vader) is the perfect anti-NS trio. When Zombie gets taunt, Traya and Thrawn have no choice but to use fracture / isolate on her, AI controlled or not. And vader is going to use his ability to ignore Zombie and take out the others (which in the video - he does).
The problem we are seeing, actually watching the video, is two fold:
A) SEE can't build up ultimate charge quick enough despite having deceive on all the NS. He just absolutely sucks at building up ultimate charge on any team that isn't Jedi.
His leadership is just so pathetic that the other sith get wrecked by the NS.
Putting any other Sith with SEE on that team is not going to change the outcome of the match.
I will give you the benefit that these NS are extremely strong and well modded, but @Kyno I feel if NS could beat SLKR or Rey you wouldn't be questioning this as hard and making it look like a 2+ year old team should be beating the latest Galactic Legend.
@LordDunbar the reason SEE can't build ultimate charge here is that SEE is forced to put linked on zombie, and then forced to kill zombie (as @Shiryu and I explained ages ago when were were told it was just meaningless theorycrafting, and which I mentioned in my suggested kit fixes a page ago). The issues with spreading Deceived on DS don't help either.
You're also correct about the leadership--there are too many instances where EP lead (despite all the attempts to nerf him) Vader lead, DR lead, Traya lead are just better. SEE is a bad leader and a weak GL.
Also not to lead to any confusion about the situation, even though I am saying I feel that is not an ideal squad for SEE, yes this video was passed along.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.
Nope, no one is requiring you to do any of that.
Can you show your math?
We already showed the math.
Let me clarify. Every time I said a number for speed or protection in prior posts, it was based on the swgoh.gg stats for the highest players. Meaning that I was calculating in the ideal environment, JML vs SEE with god mods, or Nihilus vs SEE for speed purposes, or Rey vs JML vs SLKR vs SEE for speed for fighting against the Wat comp.
None of what I said was bull**** off the top of my head, I did my math with actual stats, so if you want me to show my math you can just go back and reread what I said about the math. That was actual ideally calculated evidence, and if you lowered it from "the highest speed" or "highest damage" SEE in the world, it only gets worse from there. So this math being the best-case scenario for SEE and still showing that he needs buffed is exactly the kind of evidence you've asked for, the pinnacle of the thread when combined with all our suggestions for what to change.
I never said it was just off the top of your head.
There are many factors that cant be "just calculated" which is why many times players asked for pics or video. Because "your math" needs to include both full teams, CD increases and decreases, accounting for any TM gained or turns given through other mechanics..... there is a lot more to it than the speed of a toons.
I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.
So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.
Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.
Replies
The stacking mastery would probably need to be improved simply because it's not a lot. Same idea. If we only rely on mastery gain, SEE would need a ton more mastery gain to compensate for the weak damage.
IMO the most subtle change to SEE would be to implement most or all of these fixes, because then they don't have to be implemented to an extreme degree. Too little of an update on SEE would basically be an announcement to the effect of "SEE must remain weak in the one area he's supposed to be strong in, in addition to all his other weaknesses and vulnerabilities, compared to other GLs" in which case they should just remove his GL ability and weak mastery gain and declare him a JKL-type toon and provide major refunds.
Honestly "who cares" about thier bias, I'd they cannot provide the details on how to make him work, then it's of little effect on the situation and you may be incorrect (FYI).
We are being told in this thread multiple times, "all the testing has been done", and that there are groups of "experts out there" who have done and talked about all of this. So when I see a comment that sounds like it has any weight to it, my next move is to get some back up on that to share with that comment, because theory crafting based on the best mods out there is not realistic when pushing for a change.
The general sentiment has been heard, they commented, the next step is to provide them with everything we can to help an informed decision and hopefully a change is made. (We all wish they would comment about this, I know.)
Any dissenting opinion has been met with the same level of scrutiny, and has been asked to provide details in the same fashion, that is where you "can win" if you are trying to push for a change.
There are people out there making it work with minor changes to team comp. There are a few Jedi team comps, and SLKR comps used. It is nothing odd to not be able to dominate with solely 1 comp. I agree SEE shouldnt need to change for every team, I'm not saying this whole situation is the way it should be.
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Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
Give me a insta-win button.
Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?
Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.
(This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)
To be fair we have seen several posts by people who dont disappear who think SEE should just be super powerful because they want thier GL to be an I win button too. Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof.
Maybe just stay on topic, and ignore it if you do not think there is merit to an addition without any basis in example.
I think lack of Empire and Republic tags on SEE points to our next GLs being Empire and Republic.
For example they should have given Rey a Jedi tag but they didn't... Likely because they knew JML was coming next.
And since Vader made him then Vader would fit that Bill as well.
I'm leaving disappointed hahaha
Yep, but still there are 3 fights against the same player and team comp.
That comp doesnt really seem like a good comp, anyone who have SEE, would you run or leave this comp as a good defensive comp?
Minus thrawn (I use Malak instead) that's the same team I leave on defense, it is what I've found to work the best so far. (Not that it works good at all - SEE is horrible on defense no matter what team you put with him).
SET and Traya are SEE staple defense. Even if you took out vader and thrawn from that team and replaced with something else, it's doubtful anything would change.
Actually, Vader and Thrawn are anti-NS (to get around Zombie), so if NS can beat that team they can beat any SEE team.
I would disagree with that last statement, as it is 100% not accurate at all.
Teams used on offense work because they are player controlled. Teams hold better on defense because the AI uses thier skills better.
We have seen SEE victories (in this thread) be discounted because they were against an "offensive team" or a counter comp, but when that happens against SEE, it's used as an example? Does that seem right?
Someone finally had recording software and an enemy SEE to face.
I called that back on like page 5 that NS could win from some higher end friends and some discord chats. But oh well. Guess b-tier teams are joining the other GLs as a SEE counter.
Geos, NS, troopers, (I've seen padmes do it), SE, palp, thrawn L, any Slkr, any rey, jml Jericho bomb.
Pretty sure if there is no nihilus or malak Nest can solo a SEE team LOL
NS will probly work on other SEE teams as well. Probably all of them. That NS team was rather lacking. Ill try to get a shard mate to try out my team later with his NS.
with ZERO health restoring abilities the SEE team will just fall over. Which is funny cause EP L, vader L, Treya would just smack NS around like candy.
That Thrawn Vader combo is far from ideal. This sid nihilus team would melt NS. I’ve tried lots of comps and a complete sith team is the must have so far. Anything else on the team really doest have the same outcome/effectiveness as full sith comp in my opinion.
I guess not
Really, the team in the video (Thrawn, Traya, Vader) is the perfect anti-NS trio. When Zombie gets taunt, Traya and Thrawn have no choice but to use fracture / isolate on her, AI controlled or not. And vader is going to use his ability to ignore Zombie and take out the others (which in the video - he does).
The problem we are seeing, actually watching the video, is two fold:
A) SEE can't build up ultimate charge quick enough despite having deceive on all the NS. He just absolutely sucks at building up ultimate charge on any team that isn't Jedi.
Putting any other Sith with SEE on that team is not going to change the outcome of the match.
I will give you the benefit that these NS are extremely strong and well modded, but @Kyno I feel if NS could beat SLKR or Rey you wouldn't be questioning this as hard and making it look like a 2+ year old team should be beating the latest Galactic Legend.
You're also correct about the leadership--there are too many instances where EP lead (despite all the attempts to nerf him) Vader lead, DR lead, Traya lead are just better. SEE is a bad leader and a weak GL.
Now where were we, oh yeah, SEE is great..... j/k, but seriously let's stay on topic.
Thx 🙏
It's not as disappointing as your arrival.
I agree with the general sentiment of the statement but stand by my math since the question at hand was "Is there a team fast enough to prevent the Wat tech and get past JML autotaunt under Bast" to which the answer is a resounding no at high levels. If you're talking about lower levels of mods, then both teams have improvements to make so the evidence is irrelevant because they can always buff their speed or damage output to get Wat out faster. At the top level of gameplay, the math I did was good because no team comp could outdo that Wat comp under SEE unless Han and Chewie work together to kill Wat turn one. And in that case, SEE has lost two sith so his viability drops, and he loses if the rest of JML's team is titan jedi.
So yes, normally it's not all about optimal speeds. But the question at hand was literally "isn't there a mod that can stop Wat?" No, he has a bonus turn and one of the highest non-GL speeds in the game. "Can't Han stop him?" Not without killing him first because the JML team will run enough circles to get Wat out before you anyway.
Keep in mind that TM reduction was accounted for if you go look, and cooldown increases are irrelevant unless the opposing team can get someone out and targeting Wat before an autotaunting, AB'ing, breaching JML erases that possibility. So again....speed.