SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • Another video of devastating attacker in action, lol

    https://youtu.be/4geVFasJtqI
  • ImperialAegis
    7 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Wow. I just scanned through this whole thread and found only one Developer comment, that they are monitoring the situation. That’s it. For the record, SEE is my only GL and I regret every cent I (over)spent to rush him through on day 1.

    That said, I do pretty well in arena when I have the time, and I’m on an old shard (joined maybe two months after release). I can reliably beat most Rey teams and all JML teams, but I have to switch to a cheese GAS/5s team to climb against Kylo. My Sith are maxed r7 and t6 mods, 551 speed SEE. No matter how stacked I make my tanks (Sion and Malak) I lose 2 or 3 toons to Rey’s whirlwind attack each round, every time. SEE has nothing comparable to Rey or Kylo with his basic or special attacks. His Ultimate is ok, but I’ve still lost a few battles when Rey beats back SEE one on one.

    I actually thought that SEE was buffed some time after he was released, which is why I was scanning the forums for details. I started out unable to climb at all, and eventually I was able to beat Rey teams. I can’t tell what made the difference, as I haven’t significantly changed his mods since the start. I’ve had a few variations in my team comp and seem to do better with Trio + Malak vs Sith Empire, but still nothing major. So maybe SEE gets a bit better with time and mods, etc. But fundamentally, SEE is still meaningfully worse than the other GLs as far as I can tell. I had high hopes to justify my high investment, yet the results are highly disappointing, at least so far. I certainly won’t whale again, and I’ve pulled back on everything else except the occasional $9.99 special resource packs.

    Please CG, let us know that you’re seeing what most of us here are seeing. Help me @CG_SBCrumb, you’re my only hope!

    Edit: adding SWGOH.gg profile link for reference https://swgoh.gg/p/453715119/
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    Another video of devastating attacker in action, lol

    https://youtu.be/4geVFasJtqI

    https://tenor.com/bhoCj.gif
  • also when SEE use Unraveled Destiny, increase the Cooldown 1 of the enemy. will be a good buff.
  • Game update in half an hour.

    Round and round and round it goes... will it fix SEE? Nobody knows...
  • TargetEadu wrote: »
    Game update in half an hour.

    Round and round and round it goes... will it fix SEE? Nobody knows...

    I’ll bet my house, cars, wife and children that it won’t
  • Basic, basic, basic, basic...
    Basic attacker would be a more appropriate description
  • TargetEadu wrote: »
    Game update in half an hour.

    Round and round and round it goes... will it fix SEE? Nobody knows...

    Not to say I wouldn't be incredibly grateful if they fixed him....but if this update fixed him without any sort of communication and no acknowledgment of our grievances by the devs, I might be a bit more miffed than I would be otherwise.
  • Having linked drain offence and protection could fix his damage... Add a shoots first like bonus turn where he can only use link and thats another fix
  • Well, they fixed his Unique Zeta stopping after Ult. Which was a legitimate bug.

    Progress!

    ... not nearly enough though.
  • I enjoy that there was progress, but having daze lite spread now while giving no other benefits means nothing. Post-ult, if you need to lower the cooldown by hitting a deceived enemy, this also means nothing unless no one was deceived when you ult-ed. Since SEE is immune to taunt effects and could hit the one deceived enemy anyway if he wanted. I guess it's marginally more effective now since if the target with deceive dies, there's probably someone else with it, so you can continue lowering cooldowns, but that's the only benefit of this.

    What irks me is that this proves they can see issues and patch in bug fixes and stuff for these new characters, so they've obviously been looking at and planning more than just "we're looking into it" and they never said anything.
  • It's pretty evident by the amount of effort Kyno is defending him that they aren't changing anything. I already gave up hope with my JML on them fixing his useless ult and CG is perfectly okay with JKR meta just being better lead but after seeing all these replies and seeing all the videos popping up, the evidence is clear that SEE is by far the worst GL.

    I really don't get CGs marketing decision here. When they said the new GLs were on the same power level as the previous GLs, everyone assumed slightly better but now seeing slightly worse then SLKR for JML or WAY worse for SEE, it's clear that it's pointless to invest in future GLs. Not the best sales tactic IMO. I guess they must be just raking it in with gear packs and crystal purchases alone? I mean we are looking at SLKR meta lasting for over a year at this point, and that's including all areas of the game like pressing auto on HSTR with him.
  • I enjoy that there was progress, but having daze lite spread now while giving no other benefits means nothing. Post-ult, if you need to lower the cooldown by hitting a deceived enemy, this also means nothing unless no one was deceived when you ult-ed. Since SEE is immune to taunt effects and could hit the one deceived enemy anyway if he wanted. I guess it's marginally more effective now since if the target with deceive dies, there's probably someone else with it, so you can continue lowering cooldowns, but that's the only benefit of this.

    What irks me is that this proves they can see issues and patch in bug fixes and stuff for these new characters, so they've obviously been looking at and planning more than just "we're looking into it" and they never said anything.
    Decieved should now keep spreading past ult... so it should get to everyone to let SEE lower the cooldown.

    And while I don’t like that the issues go unsolved once again, this one in particular was a pretty clear case of the kit not doing what it said it would do. Any matchup problems or non-devastating-ness are more nebulous.
  • Even if they are not going to buff SEE to make him into a truly Devastating attacker, they still need to at least improve the link issues that make it possible for him to be solo'd
  • TargetEadu wrote: »
    I enjoy that there was progress, but having daze lite spread now while giving no other benefits means nothing. Post-ult, if you need to lower the cooldown by hitting a deceived enemy, this also means nothing unless no one was deceived when you ult-ed. Since SEE is immune to taunt effects and could hit the one deceived enemy anyway if he wanted. I guess it's marginally more effective now since if the target with deceive dies, there's probably someone else with it, so you can continue lowering cooldowns, but that's the only benefit of this.

    What irks me is that this proves they can see issues and patch in bug fixes and stuff for these new characters, so they've obviously been looking at and planning more than just "we're looking into it" and they never said anything.
    Decieved should now keep spreading past ult... so it should get to everyone to let SEE lower the cooldown.

    And while I don’t like that the issues go unsolved once again, this one in particular was a pretty clear case of the kit not doing what it said it would do. Any matchup problems or non-devastating-ness are more nebulous.

    All it's gonna do is make it harder to prove anything isn't WAI for us. It doesn't fix anything pre-ult, it doesn't help his damage, it doesn't even modify anything, it's just a genuinely broken part of the kit that now works as advertised. It needed fixed, and I appreciate them doing that so much, but it doesn't actually address anything except potentially making it slightly easier to reduce cooldown. But if everyone wasn't deceived by the time you transformed anyway and you were waiting for them to transfer it over, then you were already playing wrong. It won't change any outcomes except a few rare stalemates that might get more damage out now with a slightly faster second ult. But not against other GL's, since his "massive damage" does almost nothing to them.
  • Something this does do is complicate the possibility that Nihilus can compete with SEE, which is actually something to put on the pro's side of our list. He can now solidly take the claim "devastating attacker" away from a nearly 4 year old character (feb 2017). Unless it's a solo or the main threat on the other side is a GL who ends up alone when SEE ults leaving it as a solo again anyway. Then Nihilus is back to roughly a tie. So yippee for non-solo matchups where he is now officially on top of a toon from 2017. It's a start.
  • I will say, with how much they had in this communication, that I forgive them for what I said would happen earlier. They did make a tiny fix without giving us an update on it, and without addressing anything else.

    But there is actually proof this time and not just speculation that they had a lot more on their plate at the same time, so it's forgiven that they didn't fix the whole kit yet over this last month. They were focusing on a lot of anniversary stuff and still made time for community fixes and provided evidence of these claims by not just saying "we're busy, go away."

    However I'm still not pleased with the lack of communication about it. With all these complaints, several of which included talking about what was in the bug fix, why couldn't you tell us that you were coming out with a bug fix for his post ult zeta and that you'd be looking into more fixes later? There was no real reason to not put out a small notice like that, there's no legal battle over bugged zetas or coding errors that could get the game hacked. That was either a higher-up holding the reigns too tight or someone actively choosing to ignore us. Both of which are bad.

    Or they forgot about the fact that we cared about that, which isn't much better, but is technically no one's fault.
  • I understand there's a lot on their plate but I don't want to see the next round of GLs out before SEE gets his much needed improvements. That would make him an even bigger waste than he is ifnyou can't truly enjoy him before the next meta arrives
  • LordDunbar wrote: »
    I understand there's a lot on their plate but I don't want to see the next round of GLs out before SEE gets his much needed improvements. That would make him an even bigger waste than he is ifnyou can't truly enjoy him before the next meta arrives

    We have to be quite a ways off from a new GL. They’ll have time.
  • Eweff wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    I understand there's a lot on their plate but I don't want to see the next round of GLs out before SEE gets his much needed improvements. That would make him an even bigger waste than he is ifnyou can't truly enjoy him before the next meta arrives

    We have to be quite a ways off from a new GL. They’ll have time.

    We have 5 months left if they release next GL same amount of time they released latest ones from the first.

    Realistically with Anniversary happening this month and the holidays in December we probably won't see any changes to SEE until late January or February... Giving us 2 or 3 months to use him in all his buffed glory.

    Of course this is only my personal speculation and I'd love to be proven wrong




  • I’m incredibly pessimistic about it tbh but I would also love to be proven wrong and have something happen soon!
  • Sewpot
    2010 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    Eweff wrote: »
    LordDunbar wrote: »
    I understand there's a lot on their plate but I don't want to see the next round of GLs out before SEE gets his much needed improvements. That would make him an even bigger waste than he is ifnyou can't truly enjoy him before the next meta arrives

    We have to be quite a ways off from a new GL. They’ll have time.

    We have 5 months left if they release next GL same amount of time they released latest ones from the first.

    Realistically with Anniversary happening this month and the holidays in December we probably won't see any changes to SEE until late January or February... Giving us 2 or 3 months to use him in all his buffed glory.

    Of course this is only my personal speculation and I'd love to be proven wrong


    I think after December we are getting more mando characters. Gideon or new mando after ig-yoda and kuiil are farmable

  • Sewpot wrote: »


    I think after December we are getting more mando characters. Gideon or new mando after ig-yoda and kuiil are farmable


    Honestly given what's on their plate, I don't see them doing anything soon. Anniversary and then the holiday season will mean we're done with 2020 content soon. They'll probably finish more Mando content by the end of January after the Gideon marquee and whoever the legendary is. Finally, by February, they'll start the fix process for a lot of stuff which usually takes around a month when they have a clean slate. We won't have SEE fixes until March in a worst-case scenario. Which gives us just over a month before new GL's. And if they're working on new GL's the whole time, it'll slow down the fixes so who knows if they'll happen at all before a new meta hits.

    This is all worst case of course, don't take it as fact, but it's based on the past so it's a possibility and my personal prediction until they explicitly state otherwise.
  • Another days passes and SEE doesn’t get a buff... sad.
  • I just watched a video of Rey with some Jawas almost clearing p4 in LSTB. Honestly it was infuriating seeing what an actual GL can do. SEE is absolute trash. What is he great at? Killing off his own team so he can hopefully get 2 insta kills? This is his super power? The only videos we see of SEE are ones making fun of him. No glorious victories or doing anything interesting or worthwhile. The red headed GL.

    Can CG just reset my account to the day before I farmed him? I’d gladly forfeit all my progress since then to undo this galactic mistake.
  • @Kyno

    I made a video of the interaction between SEE and JML with Wat. It´s a full video not only the final sequence, but it´s not on Youtube.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sGpmAQTMi3IVpvQV4mIMeAlToJnbgnzm/view?usp=sharing
  • The one thing that CG at least have to fix is the Link mechanic cause it is really broken and allows a solo. Or they could change Unraveled Destiny and remove the Link mechanic. Even lore-wise the ability Sheev uses in the movie is not what Unraveled Destiny does. In the movie Sheev sucks the life force of Ben and Rey to restore himself. He is not linking them at all. The Force did that and made Ben and Rey a dyad in the Force. He was even surprised by that fact, so that means he didn't know they were linked or that he did that. I know lore is not the main focus when making kits but maybe it could help fix Sheev. In my opinion if you look at the lore and take the game into account, but main focus is of course game mechanics, you can make really good and fun kits. CG has done it before and will most likely do it in the future. But CG missed the boat with Sheev imo.
  • The one thing that CG at least have to fix is the Link mechanic cause it is really broken and allows a solo. Or they could change Unraveled Destiny and remove the Link mechanic. Even lore-wise the ability Sheev uses in the movie is not what Unraveled Destiny does. In the movie Sheev sucks the life force of Ben and Rey to restore himself. He is not linking them at all. The Force did that and made Ben and Rey a dyad in the Force. He was even surprised by that fact, so that means he didn't know they were linked or that he did that. I know lore is not the main focus when making kits but maybe it could help fix Sheev. In my opinion if you look at the lore and take the game into account, but main focus is of course game mechanics, you can make really good and fun kits. CG has done it before and will most likely do it in the future. But CG missed the boat with Sheev imo.

    Sounds very similiar to Malak's Drain Life. Interesting to see how that would turn out.
  • GJO
    172 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    Give me a insta-win button.

    Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?

    Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.

    (This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)

    I already did. 4 to 6 pages ago. Go and read.

    I won't comment any further on this:
    "Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof."
  • GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    Give me a insta-win button.

    Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?

    Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.

    (This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)

    I already did. 4 to 6 pages ago. Go and read.

    I won't comment any further on this:
    "Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof."

    That last part applies to you as well Bud.

    So keep your hypocrisy out of this civilized discussion since YOU have no proof to why he SHOULDN'T be buffed / fixed.
This discussion has been closed.